2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI thought Sanders was bad for black people. These women changed my mind.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/01/29/i-thought-sanders-was-bad-for-black-people-these-women-changed-my-mind/
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Response to ashling (Original post)
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Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)The author of that piece is AA so please go tell HIM to stop lecturing POC. Please I would love to see his reaction.
randys1
(16,286 posts)attempt for a DU'er to lecture a certain group why a certain candidate is good for them, if only they would pay attention, etc.
This is clear to everybody.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Ban white people from talking to black people. It really went over well in the past.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)after you are the one that suggests cutting off communication based on race?
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)crickets for both of us...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=37901
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Fuck that noise.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And you're attacking her for doing so. Do you care to expand your thesis?
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)
ashling
(25,771 posts)Contrary to your interpretation of my action as "attempting to lecture," I put this out there for public comment. I am not attempting to lecture anyone.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)The kindest response is "You' re attempting to lecture."
Not that that remark is a kind response but it is better than:
One) You are a Republican troll
Two) You are a (take yr pick) a sexist, a racist, or a sexist-racist, or else as Rahm Emanuel would say, "you are a retard."
artislife
(9,497 posts)As a Latina, I approve of this message.
I didn't realize how much less we got paid. 55cents to a man's dollar. So don't think you are protecting me! In fact, I might even think you may be trying to hide information that is important to me.
randys1
(16,286 posts)my point.
This is clear, and you know it.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You're simply being abusive to someone for posting a pro-Sanders piece.
randys1
(16,286 posts)As a Bernie supporter, my comments have nothing to do with Bernie, the article or the author of the article, and you know that.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)All that's there is a link to a WaPo article by Terrel Jermaine Starr. You say your problem isn't with the article or its author. Well, okay... but that's all that's there.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)After month's of hearing that Bernie is not catching on in the AA community, it is nice to see articles that make it clear that something is happening. Bernie is running for President of all the people, and posting evidence to support that he is gaining support is a good thing.
Omaha Steve
(99,582 posts)I'm not lecturing. There are POC sitting on the fence hungry for info to make an informed decision. You made your decision. Let them arrive at their own conclusion. But it does seem more and more that POC learn about Bernie, they start to lean Bernie.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511088821
OS
artislife
(9,497 posts)Do you know if the poster is PoC or not for sure? No.
I am saying I don't know if you are PoC or not but I am saying this article has an emphasis on African American with a side of Latino in it. I am Latina and I didn't know that we were the lowest paid. I have protested though for everyone to get a higher minimum wage here in Seattle so I think I am a part of the group you are trying to protect.
Why do you care if an article is posted about outreach to PoCs? Do you mind it when it is done for h?
I am desperate.
I am desperately fighting for information about how real the divide is in the goddamn country and you are pissing away on turf wars on some opinion site. That is your fight. Not in the real world but in the stupid turf wars of DU.
I am so effing tired of reading this bs from people who don't actually give a damn about the PROBLEM but only in who is presenting it and which side of the political spectrum gains from it.
This is not a fucking game.
Think about your post. You don't give on shit about what the man was writing about, just who posted the effing link.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Were it not for a common theme at DU for one group to lecture to another, you would be right.
Dont take my word for it, go to the AfAm community here at DU and ask them.
artislife
(9,497 posts)I rest my case.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I realize that's clearly an impossible task, but you've already put this much effort into your attack on Ashling, see it through to the end.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)
Gore1FL
(21,127 posts)Your argument is unclear.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but quite frankly, there is a small group of posters that want to silence any PoC that do not agree with them.
That is the extent of it.
I shared the article with my friends on FB, many of them AA by the way, others Latino. To me this is about thinking.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)so please do on a PM...
How inclusive is a group that bans people that do not agree with them 100 percent, and that includes other PoC.
Whatever members of that protected group say that they do not want to see, to me, it means it has to be discussed. Chew on that one. And this comes from somebody who has had her minority status questioned by members of that group both on and off site. I will refrain from using the R word, but will use the other one that fits here. It takes real Chutzpah to tell people what they can and cannot discuss.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to use a Black person to lecture Black people as to why a certain candidate is good for them, if only they would pay attention, etc.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)is gaining support. This makes Bernie supporters happy. We have had to endure months of postings with titles similar to "Bernie isn't catching on with black people".
It isn't lecturing, it is just relief. We are happy to find evidence that other people are seeing in Bernie what we see in him.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And, it is nice that someone finally acknowledged it; but, you go off the honesty rails, here:
The honest statement would have been:
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)Bernie supporters post any supporting person or article that we can find.
You don't react when we post things from people generally.....but if we post evidence of black support then
it becomes a "lecture".
Bernie's support continues to grow universally and that includes black people.
Will it be enough, who knows?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
jonestonesusa
(880 posts)I'm a black man who supports Bernie Sanders. I like to hear other people's opinions on how the Sanders campaign (and other campaigns) may be able to make a positive difference and develop anti-racist policies. Personally, I do not need you or anyone else to police this site on behalf of protecting me from white people's general opinions about the candidates. I can read the opinions, take them or leave them, stand up when I need to. The issues in this campaign are too big - we need to be able to communicate about the candidates. I'm very leery of the act of appointing oneself as the guardian of black feelings on this site.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
Autumn
(45,056 posts)with no fucking comment or lecture by that poster for discussion on a discussion board. I think your problems are with the Black man who wrote the article explaining why Bernie is better for Black people than Hillary and White people actually talking about what Black people who agree with Bernie are saying. because it flies in the face of the DU narrative of a few here that insist all Black people hate Bernie.
You and randy point out in this OP where the OP is using a Black person to lecture Black people, other than in your imaginations.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I was going to answer your accusations, point for point; but, got to here ...
And decided screw it ... why argue with someone that is so detached from what Black DUers have said?
Have a good day.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)any Black person, on DU or any where other Bernie supporters gather? Yeah I see your problem. You have a nice day too.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)then, you just go on ... there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of your disconnect.
It proves my point.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)35. Actually, it's another attempt by a DUer ...
to use a Black person to lecture Black people as to why a certain candidate is good for them, if only they would pay attention, etc.
Please Note: I AM NOT SAYING BERNIE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE ... AFTER ALL, HE MARCHED WITH MARTIN!
The OP did no such thing. The OP made no comment, the OP lectured no one.
Same as in two of the OPs that you objected to yesterday.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)This is exactly what you posted yesterday morning, that non-blacks need to stop posting support given by blacks and that black folks have asked for it to stop, a number of times.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that people do not post what they don't want to see, because they are not black? Or to clarify, members of a small clique that also supports Clinton? I wish after the harassment on me from these folks both on and off site, I could even be a smidgen surprised.
It takes... what is the term I am looking for... CHUTZPAH to even make that demand from members of a discussion forum dedicated to GASP... PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS.
Suffice it to say, I liked the article, I read the article, and I SHARED (the horror) the article OFF THIS SITE.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)I believe you are allowed to read it and privately like it, as long as you do not share it or let others know you liked it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and just to add to the myself being naughty, will now free it on the Twitter feed as well, and watch them try to stop me.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)wouldn't it be prudent to read what I have said for context, before venturing a wounded opinion?
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #92)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)I'd really appreciate it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=37726
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I deleted my response since they are not worth of even that much. They are into making stupid demands.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You have stumbled into a longstanding discussion about the conduct of many white DUers. Many Black Duers (and, Black folks in real life) have observed it, and have commented on it.
The short of it is ... Their answer to the lack of diversity of Bernie's crowds and the lack of traction of Bernie's message among the Black community is to find one of the few Black people in the crowd and/or one of the few Black voices supportive of Bernie and post it to DU ... as if, the outlying voice, represents something more.
Again, it's merely non-whites trying to convince themselves that Bernie is doing more among the Black electorate than he is. That's why Cornell West was touted and then Killer Mike.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and yet you feel compelled to attack. Even attack people who dare WRITE OPINION PIECES for one of the leading papers in the nation.
Congrats. You are a non person, a collection of ones and zeroes, and not worth of any acknowledgment in virtual life. In real life, I would avoid you like the plague.
And for the rest of the class, I am sure that if these pieces endorsed HRC, this same non person would embrace them.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And, for the record, this "non-person" is not a HRC supporter.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I am having a conversation with a figment of my imagination. Like all figments, well, what can I say?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you keep attacking why is that? Are you that insecure that you are threatened by strong LATINA JEWISH women?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)me insecure and/or threatened by you? Are you kidding?
Please stop ... or, at least, post a prepare to laugh warning.
Trust I am neither made to feel insecure or threatened by you, regardless of your flavor.
Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)The point is that you stated you were being mischaracterized and that is not the case at all. The benefit of being a lurker and not a high count poster is that I get to take everything in from all sides without having to think up a response. In this case, you are misrepresenting yourself and what you believe.
If it is what you believe, that only blacks have the right to post articles by black authors, then own it, but don't claim otherwise when called on it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and for that to become a "rule" then we will have a lot LESS traffic and exposure about minority issues. It seems counter intuitive to me but what would I know?
for anybody who really needs that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that only blacks have the right to post articles by black authors ... it is not even that white posters post articles by Black authors.
My beef is with white posters that post Black authors to "show"/"prove" that Black folks are "feeling the bern", when that clearly is not the case.
I don't know how more clear I can be.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)ashling (24,355 posts)
I thought Sanders was bad for black people. These women changed my mind. [View all]
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/01/29/i-thought-sanders-was-bad-for-black-people-these-women-changed-my-mind/
41
This is the WAPO Title
The candidate's economic plan is more important than I realized.
Notice anything? You are being extremely dishonest.
You know it. but hey whatever, if you want to claim you are the arbiter of what should be posted, have it it,. Have an excellent in non entity land.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)Just as long as it is for your candidate, to prove that she is truly the choice of the majority. I understand now. Thanks.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
betsuni
(25,462 posts)Aaargh.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)They know better, more and right.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)and give us a list of what we are allowed to post based on ethnicity.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)along with the OP Randy started in the AA group.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)what a certain segment of DU considers "pretty obvious", has been more a reflection of what they see when they "read between the lines", rather than what has actually been said ... and they stick with their "interpretation" even when corrected.
So, I will leave you to do, or not do, as you deem appropriate.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)what a certain segment of DU considers "pretty obvious", has been more a reflection of what they see when they "read between the lines", rather than what has actually been said..."
I couldn't agree more. It's quite likely, though, that we are talking about different segments of DU.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)From what I've seen it is clear to nobody but you. Are you now the arbiter of who may post what in which forum?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)And he's in the thread lecturing blacks. 
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Autumn
(45,056 posts)Since this thread is Meta I guess that posting a link to my post is okay
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=37734
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)no one is lecturing anyone.
"But now, I’m beginning to rethink my position. That’s thanks, largely, to Sanders’s black women supporters. Over the last week, I’ve spoken with people like Ohio state Sen. Nina Turner, Trayvon Martin family lawyer Natalie Jackson and several black female Sanders staffers, like Tezlyn Figaro. No one shaped my thinking more than Erica Garner. She’s the daughter of Eric Garner, an unarmed African American who died after being put in a choke hold by an NYPD officer in 2014.
During our conversation, she argued that Sanders’s push for economic equality is just as important for black people as fighting abusive policing. Listening to Garner explain how she feels Sanders will help ease her financial hardships struck a chord. Women make, on average, just 79 cents for every dollar a man makes. Black women earn just 60 cents on the dollar; Latinas make 55 cents on the dollar. For Garner, it doesn’t matter how many cops are thrown behind bars for killing black people if she can’t afford to pay her rent or afford child care for her 6-year-old daughter Alyssa."
This matters and must be heard. I read a study where black women have an emergency savings of $15! I am still reeling over that statistic. Their voices matter irrespective of your candidate choice.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)my beef is more about who is posting these posts and for what purpose.
Qutzupalotl
(14,302 posts)
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Thanks for posting, ashling! An excerpt would have been nice. But still, some people might actually read it & learn something.
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)Is that Sanders focus on economic justice is good for minorities to. In other words a raising tide lifts all boats.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)The "If WE do well, YOU'll do ok" is often just another version of trickle down.
If some people have leaky boats or no boat at all, the rising tide will do them no good. We also need to have programs and policies that address the structural racism problem in this country and that is separate and apart from economic inequality.
Sandra Bland had a good job and she's still dead. Trayvon Martin lived in an upper-middle class subdivision and was shot dead there, not because he didn't have enough money or couldn't afford college, but because he was black. My father is very comfortable financially, but people still hand him their keys at hotels expecting him to park their car. I am still followed around in stores, even though I can afford to buy anything for sale in it.
A rising tide will NOT lift all boats . . .
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)
We must pursue policies to transform this country into a nation that affirms the value of its people of color. That starts with addressing the five central types of violence waged against black, brown and indigenous Americans: physical, political, legal, economic and environmental.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)We can walk and chew gum, both angles are relevant.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)It's time to start making sure EVERYONE has a place in the boat. Things are going to be more then a little bumpy.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)I don't pretend to understand, but I do care..a lot. I want equality, diversity, harmony...you know, all the Kum by ya stuff. Everyone has their own experience.
Go bash on the Republicans. That's who needs the message...not Liberals and Progressives on DU trying our best to move the conversation along.
Please, show some respect. Banging people over the intellectual heads doesn't work. And I'm sorry that you've had the experiences you have had. It is our responsibility to lift ourselves out of them, find the people who are on the team, and Move Forward.
Peace.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)Those people are dead because of an out of control militarized police force and a corrupt justice system.
http://everything.explained.today/A_rising_tide_lifts_all_boats/
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Autumn
(45,056 posts)"drowned in that rising tide" that JFK and other Democrats have referenced when speaking of equal economic policies.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)But there are countless other African Americans who did not benefit from the "rising tide because of inherent discrimination built into the system that was designed to benefit whites while ensuring that blacks were frozen out.
Read up on the history of the FHA, redlining, blockbusting, etc. There is a reason that, following WWII, white Americans were able to move into the middle class and begin building generational wealth (and by "wealth," I mean not vast riches but sufficient assets to grow into a comfortable way of life) while African Americans stayed where they were or slipped further into poverty. Blacks had finally begun to make some strides - we weren't fully catching up, but were making some incremental progress - but, largely thanks to such racist practices as predatory lending targeted to blacks, much of that progress was wiped out in the 2008 crisis. (Actually, the wipeout started years before, but despite loud cries of warning, it was ignored until it hit the larger white community.)
This was not and still is not a level playing field and simply pushing for income equality or closing the gaps between the millionaires and billionaires and the middle class will not address this. We must confront and eliminate structural racism and discrimination within all spheres of society or no amount of "closing the income gap" will solve the problem.
Response to Empowerer (Reply #147)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Response to Empowerer (Reply #13)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)Yes, financial equity is important.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)Thanks.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Sanders is better for black people than any other candidate and if I don't know that, then I am ignorant and if I favor any other candidate then I am "voting against my interests."
Autumn
(45,056 posts)Sanders may be better for black people than any other candidate" I can't find anywhere in the article that Terrell Jermaine Starr wrote where you got the
I'm not lecturing anyone, I'm telling you your spin is obvious.
artislife
(9,497 posts)I want posters to see the replies in this OP thread.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Then, it dawned on me why the piece missed me ... Bernie hasn't improved his message; he, now, just has Black folks saying what his message means ... though he hasn't said it.
ETA: Or, perhaps, he hasn't said it in a way I was able to hear it.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)The economic status quo works just fine for you, but no matter how economically secure
you are, the social injustice in the society remains, and you are still in danger.
For those living on the economic precipice, the potential of economic disaster compounds the problem.
there is less social injustice as your income grows.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)is because I have lived my whole life as a Black man. It is not theoretical for me ... I have not always been economically well off and the problems I faced when I was broke are the same I face now that I am not broke.
That is, simply, not true. While one may have more resources to deal with the social injustice, the social injustice remains.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)additional resources allow you to place yourself in an environment where some injustices do not occur.
The point is that millions of people face an economic insecurity that apparently you do not face, while they also face social injustice.
Your response trivializes the difference between being well off and living on the brink of financial disaster.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Where, in America, would that be?
Yes ... and much of the economic insecurity is a direct result of that lack of social justice.
It will probably come as no surprise ... I disagree.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)but you refuse to accept that removing economic insecurity will have any effect on social justice.
I have not always been economically well off and the problems I faced when I was broke are the same I face now that I am not broke.
changing your economic state changed nothing for you.....why did you even bother? No wonder you are not on the economic justice bandwagon.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Black middle and upper class citizens still suffer discrimination that whites don't.
The issue of social justice can be independent of class, and is for black Americans.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)I agree that it is independent of class for middle and upper class black people.
What I believe though, is that poverty itself, is a form of social injustice.
I have experienced extreme negative treatment from police based on a combination of my poverty and the fact that I appear Hispanic..... for an expired inspection sticker on a junky car that I could not afford to repair........slurs, threats to bury me under the jail, telling me that they were going to fuck me over.......later in life with new cars and professional dress.....nothing but respect from police....who now view me as white.
That is my point. Poverty itself creates discrimination.....it only compounds discrimination.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)What I believe though, is that poverty itself, is a form of social injustice.
It is independent of class for ALL Black people. And, while poverty might be a form of social injustice, poverty doesn't have a legislative history.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)and they periodically buy our legislators and use that power to create poverty for many, wealth for the few.
Their power over the government is now immense and growing. They are in the final stages of gutting our nation.
Poverty is no accident. That form of social injustice is the very definition of class.
We can't survive as a nation unless BOTH social injustice and economic injustice are eliminated.
Every other time that this consolidation of wealth has occurred, a movement or a person has risen up and objected.
I don't know if it can be stopped, but I know that Hillary is fighting for the other team.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... its like talking to a wall.
There are plenty of millionaire blacks who will openly admit there money doesn't mean shit when it comes to structural racism
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)but it can make a difference in the life of a poor person......money is not, however, a magic wand,
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)despite their protestations, there simply is nothing in it for them to acknowledge that (structural) racism cuts across Black economic classes (and leaves them untouched) and much of the poverty that the Black poor experience is CAUSED by that racism.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)my point is that it is worse if you are poor, and that the oligarchs and their lackeys reinforce that.
Just because structural racism exists, doesn't mean that lives can't be improved with improved education and jobs.
Do you have a magic wand that can be used to eliminate structural racism?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)make it clear that for the affected people, i.e., Black folks, putting money dollars in our pockets, even those in dire poverty, does nothing to alleviate the social injustice that is a root cause of that poverty.
Yes ... Educate my/our allies of the left, laboring under the false notion that the solution to your problems are the solution to ours. That way we are on the same page.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)it is designed to directly eliminate the poverty.... we can still work on the root cause simultaneously.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm sorry ... that is unconvincing.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)are we not allowed to address poverty until we have a perfect solution for racism?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)message, largely, fails in the African-American community.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)ETA: From what I am seeing and hearing within the African-American community, atall income levels.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)This is where I'm lost -
It actually makes us much more visible as targets.
Hence my dad getting pulled over just a few months before he died - oxygen tank, Cadillac, 35 years in the community, former School board member, 35 year Little League Booster, husband of a former town council woman in the "town" and highly visible in not only (my mom - his wife) county Convention. And Visitor's Bureau and NY State Travel and Tourism.
Still, a county sheriff employee . . .
And your little DWB incident.
Empower pointing out SWB. Oh I have stores where they know me - but I'll never shop in Bloomingdales again after the two white women were not asked for their driver's license with their credit card purchase, I was, then I waited.
No legislation in the world or racial justice platform will stop SWB or DWB.
It's that - Not broke so they should be happy they live in that community. Are we being told to shut up here? I'm not sure. But I still contend a white male in NJ earning 60K per year has less daily judgments to make about how he moves around the state than my recent graduate nephew making twice that on Wall Street and commuting from Dover to Manhattan each day.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Additional resources allow us to THINK that we can remove ourselves from the injustice - until we are slapped in the face with the injustice that exists virtually everywhere in this country.
Thurgood Marshall once noted that a day never passed that he had to hold his hand up to his face to know he was black - he was reminded of it numerous times throughout the day. That is the experience that most black people have in America, regardless of our financial situation. Even when we think we've escaped, invariably some white person reminds us that we are still "other" and we find ourselves saying, "Oh, Lord - not this sh$t again!"
Black people don't need to be told that if just get enough money, all will be well or that we don't understand the damage done by economic insecurity. We know that probably better than any other group in this country. And, among other things, we know that the fundamental element of the social compact that this country made with whites is the promise of the certainty that no matter how poor, how decrepit, how wretched their economic or social existence, they would ALWAYS be permitted to see themselves as superior to ANY black person, regardless of that black person's economic status. In fact, one of my forbearers was lynched by a group of whites who thought he was getting too "uppity" because he was amassing a comfortable nest egg and property. It wasn't the "establishment" or oligarchy or millionaires that killed him. It was a bunch of lower middle class white men who did not want a black man to believe that he was their equal.
1StrongBlackMan isn't trivializing anything. He's telling you the truth. However, your post trivializes the struggle of black people in America by assuming that money will solve all of the problems we face in this country.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)I just believe that money, education,and jobs are a necessary component of social justice. If you already have those things, then I am not really talking about you. They are an important step for people who are in poverty. It is little comfort to those who are in poverty that some who are well off also experience problems.
The racism of which you speak is deeply embedded in our society. The same oligarchs who are crushing the middle class also buy lawmakers, and influence law which turns their private prisons into ATM machines....they use their power to gerrymander and suppress votes and influence thought through media. All of those things create and reinforce social injustice. A Democratic party that takes money from them does not operate on our side. You simply cannot have social justice unless you curb the power of money to corrupt government.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)You seem to assume that racism and discrimination are tools used only by the "oligarchs" and therein lies the fault of your assumption.
Racism and discrimination are not limited to the rich. And they aren't limited to Republicans. They are woven throughout our society and through all classes. And sometimes they are at their worst among "the have nots." The only reason the "oligarchs" are successful at their efforts to divide is because they are catering to the people in the middle and bottom who are very receptive to it - they want and NEED to feel that they are better than people of color. Their racism and bigotry is the very foundation of much of the problem we are talking about.
One of my concerns is that I see too many Sanders supporters make the assumption you are making - that it is someone else perpetrating the racial divide in this country. But one need not wear a white hood and burn a cross in order to be complicit in perpetrating the structural racism that continues in America. It is often enough to look the other way, to blame someone else, to insist that "I'M not doing anything wrong" - and that is the most insidious and damaging because it allows structural racism to continue unabated in this country.
Unfortunately, treating structural racism and inequality as if it is just an offshoot of economic inequality and insisting that if we just close the economic gap between the "oligarchs" and the "99 percent," we will eliminate racism is naive and, in some cases, ignorant and cruel.
These issues have been studied and discussed and probed for decades - in fact, for more than a century - by brilliant black scholars, analysts, and activists and there is a plethora of information available about this. Yet this seems to have been completely ignored by Sen. Sanders and his supporters who, instead, just keep giving us very simplistic answers to a deeply complex and painful problem. Many black voters suspect that this disregard is purposeful among some in the Sanders camp because, like many white Americans, it's not convenient to deal with these issues and they don't see any great advantage to them personally in trying to tackle them since they don't affect them personally and, if Sen. Sanders' approach is successful, they will benefit, so they feel no need to go out of their way to go through the extra trouble of dismantling the structural racism that will keep blacks from benefitting to the same extent.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)or that it is a Republican-only problem.
I am aware of the layers of complexity. I don't think that anyone imagines a quick fix for structural racism.
The reality is though, we live in a top-down society in which the oligarchs impose their will,not only by buying politicians and using them to push for things like harsher prison sentences, "reduced services" like the horrific water in Flint, and vote suppression, but also by stirring up racial division with their rhetoric, redirecting poor white anger away from the effect of their policies. It hasn't helped that politicians like Bill and Hillary Clinton have used dog-whistle racism for political gain, and in the case of Bill participated in bringing about policy. Democrats need to call out racism, not utilize it cynically.
As long as the oligarchs fund the power structure of both parties, the top-down elements of racism will never go away. It does not eliminate racism, but it is a critical first step. We have to start somewhere.
Bigotry is learned. The Republican Party has used it to manipulate poor whites, along with their focus on abortion.
The first step in reforming the poor white viewpoint is to refocus them on that fact that they are voting against their own self interest, taking away the power of Republicans to shape power.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)Your assumption that it is, as I said, is a major part of the problem.
Look in the mirror, first. Then look to your right and to your left and then all around you. You will probably see it right there before you even get to the oligarchs, the Republicans, the Clintons or poor white people.
And, in case you think that, by telling you to look in the mirror, I am calling you a racist, I am not. I believe that we are ALL prejudiced to varying degrees and that we must first look within our own hearts and minds to determine where our blinders are and work to try to eliminate them and, if that's not possible, to overcome and work around them. I do that myself ALL of the time, as difficult and sometimes painful as it is because I know that like every other human being, I have my own biases and barriers that I must address. So, when I urge you to do the same, I am not asking you to do something I don't do myself.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)But I don't need a President or a particular policy to help with that. I need a President to take on the oligarchs, to persuade poor white people, etc.
We all have what some have described as a "personal religion"....our view of how things should be.
I understand the concept of "white privilege" that underlies structural racism.
I understand its invisible nature. In order for it to be understood by the entirety of white America, a few other layers of belief have to be peeled away from them first.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Is the social justice/economic justice - economic justice/social justice disconnect because of a complete lack empathy/understanding; or, is it something more ... something I've come to the edge of says, but have been able to pull myself back from writing.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... is not more social justice
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I wish reading the book, Rage of a Privileged Class by Ellis Cose was required reading for any non-Black wishing to have these discussions.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)McKinney Texas was full of Half to million dollar houses WITH BLACK PEOPLE IN THEM and the stupid ass'd cop there still pulls a gun after dogging a black girl who was walking away from him!!!!
What the hell people...
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)just the kind that affects poor people
Money does affect quality of life, it does not make life perfect.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and they all have something in common ... their views do not represent the main stream of Black thought.
{That is not to say my thoughts constitute the main stream of Black thought ... it's just where I hold an opinion that is outside of the main stream of Black thought never comes up when I am talking to white people.}
Autumn
(45,056 posts)The point is, any poster can post for discussion what any writer writes, no matter the color of their skin.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)That is the issue.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)What about this one? The posting of this also caused some offense.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280103856
Does that fall into the same same category as Terrell Jermaine Starr's opinion piece also?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)Just don't think that a few is evidence of many.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)What number are you talking about when you say 'few"? When I think of few I think of a small number maybe 10 to be generous Mr. Starr has 17,235 followers, I'm sure that more than a few agree agree with him based on his Twitter feed, share and likes for that article and that would be evidence for 'many' being more than a 'few'.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)To be more clear.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(that is the relevant descriptor here) that: 1) don't know and have never heard of, Starr; and 2) of those that do and have, recognize that his opinion is in the vast minority of Black opinion.
True ... I just wish those posters that feel the need to post DU, Black voices that represent out of the main of Black opinion, would be honest as to why they are doing so ... VirtualObserver came close, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1097646.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)I don't don't bother to check the color of the posters skin before I rec, read or comment on any given article that is posted about Bernie, Hillary or anyone else.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #73)
uponit7771 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Were it not for his fanatical condescending dudebro army and with some slightly smarter moves earlier in his campaign, he'd have a lot more black support and would be running away with this right now... White privilege does give him a bit more leeway (if Obama in '08 had a rap artist named "Killer Mike" as part of his campaign, the world would have imploded).
Of course I repeatedly warned DU about this starting last summer when for some reason the dudebros were actively campaigning against Obama and spewing talking points about black voters having "Stockholm syndrome", but what the fuck do I know??
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Go crazy...
Number23
(24,544 posts)Hey, neither one of you can say that you didn't try. Of course that now means that you'll probably be the first ones to be blamed here when those chickens come home to roost.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)On one of those threads. Completely flipped out. Someone posted that the words of MLK were racially divisive and shouldn't be allowed on a progressive site. 
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... created a worm hole.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Ask a republican what they think about black "loyalty" to the DNC, and you'll hear nearly the exact same thing
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)betsuni
(25,462 posts)At least there's lots of accidental comedy around here.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Hence all the labor, women's and African-American groups endorsing Hillary.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)the twisted organs of the establishment look like. Do you think it berns? 
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)
Everything but Old White Dudes, amiright?
That is beyond fucking asinine.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)That is so naive of you.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Early last summer, I spent a bunch of time listening to DU's black community explain why Sanders and his supporters offended them.
I gained at least a partial understanding.
At that point, I quit expressing my confusion, or trying to change their minds, and moved on to focus on Sanders and his campaign. I was pleased at his outreach, and pleased to see that, as expected, the AA community across the nation is not a monolith.
I've recently had opportunity to see some of what they tried to explain first hand. Not about Sanders supporters, but about white America in general. Let me be clear: I've been aware of racism, and the need for racial justice, all of my life. I just hadn't seen (or recognized) subtle forms of racism that close up, in that way, before. It might be that I recognized it this time in part because of the conversations I read and participated in here. It leaves me glad that I took the time to read, listen, and consider for myself.
I think this is exactly how any move towards Sanders will happen; one person at a time, in dialogue within their community, with people they have reason to listen to more openly.
The author of this article isn't embracing Sanders, by any means. He's listening to people he respects, he's considering, and he's coming to his own conclusions.
That's a good thing.
jfern
(5,204 posts)Campaign Zero shows he's by the best on racial justice.
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nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I remember back then when a certain Senator from Illinois, who was inexperienced, and black and could not win, started to catch fire. Then we also had demands by people who supported the other candidate to stop posting material they did not want to see in a GASP I KNOW, political forum.
As an observer... this is a fascinating development... the echoes are just well, fascinating.
Now back to trashing GD-P, truly not worth it.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)In 2008 we hated Gays. In 2016 we hate African-Americans.
It is almost as though they are using the same strategy for the exact same purpose. But I'm sure it is just a coincidence and that all the complaints are perfectly sincere and honest.
Iggy Knorr
(247 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)Thanks for the thread, ashling.
