2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumLittle known fact: John Kennedy had the plans for the Saturn V when he called for a Moon landing
Strange as it may seem the plans for the mighty Saturn V that boosted the Apollo crews on their way to the Moon were safely ensconced in John Kennedy's campaign documents in 1960, ready for his call on May 25, 1961 to send humans to the Moon and safely return to Earth.
After all, what use is there to have a goal without specific plans of how to reach that goal? Kennedy was no fantasist like Sanders and would never have committed our nation to shoot for the Moon unless he had a set of blueprints for the mechanism to reach that unearthly goal.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)Bad Thoughts
(2,522 posts)... and Britain ... and Sweden ... and Denmark ... and Norway ... . They exist.
The best reply to a throwaway cheapshot is snark. Massive snark.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)How on earth is my 3rd grader going to have time to practice and study for pretests, assessments, and standardized tests like PARCC & STARS if he's playing on a playground? He'll never get in to college like that!
Bad Thoughts
(2,522 posts)NOT!
global1
(25,241 posts)Great response!!!
Docreed2003
(16,858 posts)[link:http://gizmodo.com/5805457/kennedys-crazy-moon-speech-and-how-we-could-have-landed-on-the-moon-with-the-soviets|]
When JFK first mentioned putting a "man on the moon in this decade", in May of 61, there was no such plan for a Saturn V rocket. The actual design phase of what would become the Saturn V didn't begin until early 62; having blueprints during the 60 campaign would have been impossible. Even if you want to use the "We choose to go to the moon" speech from '62 as your point, the story still doesn't hold water. The reason is the idea was lambasted because no one knew the costs involved and many felt the costs would be astronomical.
http://gizmodo.com/5805457/kennedys-crazy-moon-speech-and-how-we-could-have-landed-on-the-moon-with-the-soviets
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)And it was the point of the OP actually.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Apollo got a blank check because it was literally a war effort. Watch any of Neil De Grass Tyson's dozens of talks on the subject.
Docreed2003
(16,858 posts)Totally missed the sarcasm in my haste to correct the record....sorry. Well FWIW, long story short, there was no grand plan and the budget blew up astronomically from initial estimates. Here's hoping for a moon shot for this election!
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)It's no surprise that some didn't notice right away, and if you look downthread, some are still arguing their point LOL.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)joshcryer
(62,269 posts)All it would have taken was a sit down in the oval office with his top intelligence guys to say "Oh, we can build something bigger?" Literally the day before his assassination he talked up US booster capability. He knew we'd be able to pull it off. It was not a question of "wild eyed dreaming."
So you're really off base here.
As far as funding the thing, however, even Neil De Grass Tyson points out that the entire Apollo program was a cold war military venture. That's why it had unlimited funding.
Why do we have to emphasize war economies to prove some stupid point here? It sucks.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm sure you'll figure out the meaning of my OP eventually.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)2) Kennedy knew he had a war economy to call for and implement whatever he wanted and he did so.
Your post is completely off the mark. He didn't "need" plans if he believed US booster capability was better than the Soviets, and he didn't need to get congressional funding if he used the war economy to get the thing built.
BTW, I'm not smart at all, I just used google for two seconds and saw Kennedy's speech saying Saturn I (and its derivatives) were superior to the Russian's in every way. That's what he said publicly. Who knows what he knew privately or secretly. He knew that we could get "a" Saturn V type vehicle built, he had the advisers and intelligence people to know that.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)joshcryer
(62,269 posts)This is so fucking baffling. Literally every big popular post here is full of idiotic mockery and hateful screeds. I replied to you substantively, and I can post links, man, and yet I'm directed to a mocking post as some sort of rebuttal.
You were wrong. Kennedy knew the moon shot would fucking destroy Soviet booster ability. He was right. This is history. Go watch some Neil Degrass Tyson... read his latest book.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm poking a little gentle fun at all the posts calling for Bernie to reveal his specific plans to implement his goals by pointing out how ludicrous it would have been to expect the same of the Moon landing, a far riskier and more ambitious aim than getting the USA the same level of social support for its citizens as the rest of the developed world.
Your mistake is thinking my OP was about Kennedy and rockets when it was about plans in general.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Your analogy relies on Sanders having a freaking war economy!
Sanders wins for one reason, and one reason only. The youth vote historically does not get off their ass, this is uncontroversial, if Sanders wins it's because they got off their ass. Even for Obama they didn't come out 100%. If Sanders wins the primary, then he's certainly going to get that vote out for the GE. That vote would change the dynamics in congress and a lot of the stuff he wants becomes possible.
That's the whole point of primaries, and if Sanders loses, then he will have failed to get that vote out in his favor, and then it'll be a noble loss, and he would not have been able to get his stuff passed anyway. That's how it is.
Your argument is false on its face. I can understand sarcasm. Kennedy did have a good idea of US capability, he didn't need plans. Sanders, likewise, has a good idea of the vote, he doesn't need a comprehensive plan, because if he has the vote, it becomes feasible.
But it's charming you are supporting Sanders but suggesting he has no plan. He does have a plan, and that's to get elected. Simple as that.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It really has nothing to do with Sanders or a war economy or whatever, it's strictly about this little playpen called GD-P and the brain damaged memes that keep getting upchucked here on a daily basis.
You are smart, probably smarter than I am as I've said, but you are a very linear thinker and people like me tend to confuse linear thinkers.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)C'mon, give me a break. Kennedy knew that Apollo was well within feasibility. It was not a wild eyed plan. It was specifically considered to combat the soviets and it required a war economy to achieve it.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's not rocket science and unlike going to the Moon in 1961 it's been done before.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)He only cared about beating the Soviets.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Apollo was literally a war economy.
Docreed2003
(16,858 posts)Kennedy proposed a joint moon venture with the Russians in an address to the UN. How serious he was is anyone's guess
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Because he knew that our capability, at the time, was 10x better. They would've basically been using our rockets and our research to get there. It was the diplomatic thing to do, though, and I truly believe Kennedy wanted peace.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)The moon, that's nothing.
The status quo of every industrial country as regards health, education and labor policy - that's just crazy!
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)When I first read about it I was shocked. Then, its effectiveness in regard to what it accomplished was beyond debate.
Let's subject Bernie's plans to an "all-up" test and fuck the incrementalism Hillary's selling.
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-3-4.html
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)The war economy was real. Cost-plus inundated NASA until Obama cancelled Cx and said that launch providers didn't get a free check from the government. USAF space launch costs exceeded NASAs for years. It was shameful.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Kennedy didn't have a plan to go to the moon but we got there. Sanders doesn't have a plan for when he is President, but he will get there.
No clue how this sarcasm is suppose to be a positive for someone running for President.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... seeing the Germans knew it was going nearly out of Earth orbit to hit London
The Germans knew from the beginning that the V2 was going into space, it was a far gone conclusion that the rocket itself could survive a trip to anywhere.
Now, the thing the US didn't have was could a mammal survive space but they got that from the Russians.
There was SOMETHING proven already before the space program but not all put together as one...
In sanders case I don't see his revolution even working on a small scale..... even in VT
If Sanders had a track record of legislative and cultural revolution I don't think HRC would've ran
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)To great leaders. It is a daily occurrence around here and in almost all instance the points fall flat from the start.