2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBefore today culminates people need to understand the why
There is an end point, and I know it will be lost on many and hard to accept for many, but I really would ask that Bernie supporters read this out.
I am voting Bernie because he is more right on the issues and because he, unlike 99% of other elected democrats stakes progressive positions unwavering.
I switched my support from Hillary to him shortly after he announced knowing he was a VERY long shot to win the nomination.
I knew this because I knew why Donald Trump was a VERY real threat, and Hillary was most likely to win the D nomination.
It isn't about Trump, and it isn't about Hillary and it sure as heck has next to nothing to do with DWS, as worthless as she is.
It because this country is flat fucking stupid.
Fat, distracted and stupid.
It isn't because of Trump, it isn't because of Hillary, it certainly is not because of DWS, as worthless as she is.
The information is out there, it is pretty damn obvious.
It does not take all kinds of research, it mostly is simple common sense.
People CHOOSE, WILLINGLY, joyfully, to be uninformed.
Trump, Hillary, DWS aren't going into voting booths and putting guns to people's heads to vote for who they want. Heck, the republican establishment is trying to desperately find ways to get their pods to NOT vote for Trump.
I had about an 8 year period where I was very active in local politics, and still work my poll, and what I learned is people have a lot of VERY odd reasons for voting for who they vote for. It is ALWAYS their vote, not some grand conspiracy making them vote, they CHOOSE to vote for who they vote for.
Bernie will not do well today for a lot of reasons.
It will NOT be because Hillary Clinton is some evil, vile creature.
Yes, she is warmed over, and the prototype of politicians as we know them.
People will vote for her because people are people. She has a name, and people "know" her. It really is that simple. There isn't a lot of thought put into it.
It just is the way people are.
But, it is important to understand the DEGREES of stupid.
Voting for Trump is FULL BLOWN, damn the torpedo's, straight ahead stupid.
I know people ginned themselves up into a do or die thing on our ticket, but voting Hillary is not THAT.
I know this might be hard to get, but the stupid here is not so much voting FOR Hillary as it is not voting for Bernie.
Yes, it is voting for "more of the same."
But, "more of the same" democrat is 1,000 times better than any R, frankly, and 100,000 better than the megalomaniac.
The point ...
Understand this is about the people of this country.
Whatever larger arching dynamics are at play, millions of people will vote THEIR vote.
Call it the lesser of evils or whatever.
But, when the dust settles if we can't get a hard charging progressive at the top of the ticket, it is self defeating to take our ball and go home because we gin ourselves up in some way to justify not doing our small part to make the best of a process that is driven by the STUPID of our friends, family and neighbors.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)to talk with me on the situation, and they don't seem to think the situation I am in can be reconciled. How does one reconcile "the greater good" and mindlessly follow the herd when we've seen that there can be better?
Deadly sincere. I just can't seem to mesh with the idea that even if Clinton IS the one who gets the nomination-- I mean, I've spent too long looking at her records where my issues lie. TPP, the Patriot Act, the Iraq war, all the crap that foisted us into Syria, and Libya, and caused people I work with, the men and women I considered to either come back from those hellholes missing parts of their body, or missing parts of their souls. I remember she voted to allow the use of cluster bombs, and one of the guys in my squadron was telling me just how evil those things were; because he crosstrained out of EOD into Communications, and they're just-- they're an armament straight from hell. And I get that in a war, sometimes, you need to stoop to the level of Hell to win, and to preserve your troops. World War II was enough of an example of that. But in my eyes, we haven't gone to war for any reason other than profit, and deliberately making enemies in the past sixteen years. I hold her, and every other liberal who voted for that responsible; it's not just her-- but how do you reconcile a vote for someone who shares none of your core beliefs? Someone who's record would imply that they don't share any of your beliefs?
ETA: If another Hillary supporter who doesn't just have snark and actually knows a method of reconciling this, please, let me know. Because honestly, the thought is just depressing at this point. The world's going to shit, and all data would suggest that while we can alter the course... No one seems to want to.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I can't for for that stuff. I can't vote for war and the TPP and things like that.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)In any event, my opinion of Hillary was formed by what she has done, what she stands for, her lies, and what I am afraid she would do, if given the opportunity. And I supported her in 2008. But then - I did my due diligence. Whatever Doggett says is totally irrelevant - sorry. I am not endorsement-driven, I make my own determinations.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)different ideas of what progressive is. For us, anyone can be progressive and any organized actions with goals of advancing society are progressive. A conservative church membership can be progressive, and many often are.
On a national level, for over a century a large majority of Democrats have been progressive and party policies typically progressive. These days Democrats and the Democratic Party are strongly progressive. The Republican Party used to have a large progressive block, but these days the GOP is strongly anti-government, anti-progressivism.
Short version, it's the action one supports, not what group one belongs to or which candidate one supports, that determines whether one is progressive.
Proud Liberal here.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)Bernie > Hillary > than any possible republican.
Life is life.
Sometimes we don't get what we think is the best.
There are a LOT of people who see things differently than how we see them.
IF, in this go around the critical mass of voters is such who we think is best does not make it, then we gotta pick the better choice in the next go around.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)And that's possibly the military's ass on the line if she gets a hair up her ass about another Middle Eastern "intervention". That's our world on the line while we fuck it with drills despite the mountains of evidence that clean fuel is actually sustainable. That's our country's ass on the line as the 99% are screwed further ragged, cause with her, we can be damn sure Glass-Steagall ain't coming back for another eight years.
Sure, she's got a decent civil rights record. But where's the comfort that we have that if we're dead or dying? Money doesn't spend in Hell, and all that. I dunno. I thought I was disillusioned when I saw how badly journalism had fallen off in the 2000's. This is worse.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)I do ...
I don't see her as negatively as a lot of Bernie supporters, but there is a big schism between her and Bernie on a lot of issues.
I do hold out hope that once she were to get into the white house she would be a little more progressive than she has positioned herself as, and in her way kind of hold fort on a lot of these things, simply stall it out and not let it progress.
Either way, while on the issues you point out she could break the wrong way, there are 1,000 other ways that a republican would absolutely break the wrong way, starting with ...
That 9th SC seat.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)kindle the same kind of rage I've been feeling ever since I started researching. Losing sleep over some of the shit I'd read, because there was a once upon a time where I thought the Clinton name could do no wrong. But now it's just. Empty lead, if that makes any sense. Just that impending feeling that we're all about to shuffle off the side; but at the same time, that kind of pragmatism is at least somewhat warranted considering the right wing field.
I just really hate the idea of having to compromise my beliefs.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)I am not naive about her.
I do hold out hope that if it shakes out how it looks its going to shake out in the primary, if she can beat Trump, that she will surprise us in a good way.
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)Your mileage has varied though. Maybe I've just been around the military too long, I dunno.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)I think we both would agree that the best way to "honor" our troops is to not put them into use in these mindless middle east quagmires.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)since RayGun.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)most are overworked, underpaid and feel defeated. Like a beaten dog it takes the abuse up to a point but then it will strike back and then watch out. We are not there yet but IMO it will happen it always does.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)because things are where they are because we have elected the idiots we have elected to this point.
It is not just about POTUS, this part of the problem.
There are 535 members of the senate and HOR.
60% of them are jackass republicans, 20% are near worthless democrats, at best 20% are forward thinking, common sense progressives.
We elected these assholes.
We are the only country on the planet that has a signficant portion of the population that thinks global warming is a hoax.
We fight, tooth and nail, to avoid a common sense single payer health care system.
The stupid runs VERY deep in this country.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)by the media. Fear of this fear of that, Hillary has used that quite well. Then making people feel that their vote won't count, look at the voter turnout on the Democratic side. Then we add the fact that the two parties control the process and only allow their "people" to have any chance to win, it has worked on the Dem side, Bernie is not a democrat he is a socialist.......it's true, it's true. The Republicans are still fighting tooth and nail to deny Trump. IMO it all adds up in the end
They estimate that as a percent of eligible voters, turn out was: 2000, 54.2%; in 2004 60.4%; 2008 62.3%; and 2012 57.5%. These were the same figures as given by the Center for the Study of the American Electorate.
BTW IMO the two main reasons Bernie has not caught on like Trump is because of his age and the dreaded Socialist label. My daughter is in High School and the teachers have been telling them to forget Bernie he can never win because he is a Socialist............. Propaganda.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)there are elements to Bernie that can draw negative frames, but for politics, where there is always going to some level of disdain for ANY elected official, Bernie is about as well liked/regarded as you can get.
THOUGH, if he were to get the nomination he would become public enemy number one, as any D does now.
The "my vote won't count" thing is rationale to just not bother caring or taking the few minutes/hours in a year it might take to do it. This is about our affluence and higher standard of living.
I don't mean to call your out, but "fear" of a vote not counting is nonsense. We saw elections a few years ago in Iraq or afganistan where people were getting killed if they voted and they had a higher turnout than we did in the years you just noted.
One of our POTUS candidates is going to be a guy who used to have a "reality" tv show.
That sums up how thoughtless this country is in regard to its government in this day and age pretty clearly.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)and it seems willful to me. They listen enough to find a candidate who reflects their own ignorance, then refuse to see anything wrong with a candidate. That, to me, demonstrates an intentional desire to be ignorant. Any basic objective or thoughtful review of ANY candidate reveals areas of weakness and disagreement. I support Bernie, but I certainly have criticisms and see his problems. But when Trump supporters are asked "Is there anything he could do that would make you not vote him?" and they answer, without hesitation and emphatically, "No!", that is deliberate and willful ignorance.
I had simple ignorance demonstrated to me just this morning. The question I was discussing in a group, that of the three potential presidential nominees, who did they trust with the nuclear launch codes? One lady answered, "None of them, they will all use them." At this point even the conservatives jumped in and said "Not Bernie, he is anti-war." The woman was taken aback and said she didn't know that. She then got very thoughtful and I am guessing she will be by at lunch with questions.
Yes, some people are as you describe, but an alarming number, perhaps even a plurality, are what the OP is describing.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)are not a part of the process, either because they are content or just struggling to survive. Trump supporters are disenfranchised just like many Bernie supporters but have been programmed to turn to the right and divide. Many intelligent people are hateful and condensing. I've come across many Ben Carson types in my dealing with doctors sad to say. Are they stupid? No just they feel they are superior. IMO It is just a part of what they are.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)but we can argue about the numbers of one versus the other.
My opinion is that both exist in non-trivial quantities of x and y.
Again, my choice of word would be "ignorant", rather than "stupid", but I am a tad more diplomatic. However, I have personal experience in my life of really, honest to Odin, stupid people. PROUDLY stupid people, with utter contempt for facts and intelligence. These are the people who embrace "Truthiness".
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/63ite2/the-colbert-report-the-word---truthiness
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)...
alarimer
(16,245 posts)And the way they have treated the whole Trump circus. If we had a serious national media, Bernie would get the attention he deserves and there would be true discussion of the issues. Instead, we get Trump idiocy 24/7 and no serious examination of the issues. It is all a horse race and the news media have beet the farm on a Trump/Hillary contest.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)not the cause.
If people wanted to be informed, if people were SERIOUS about the issues this would not be what exists.
The dumbed down media exists BECAUSE of the audience.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)Or, inadvertently, defeatism?
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)my friends and neighbors are idiots ...
I tried LONG and hard to fight it locally, and it made no difference.
Acceptance is more the point.
If you have the fight in you, go for it.
Just saying, don't pack up the ball and go home if you can't beat it.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)in his column's subtitle: "Fighting ignorance since 1973. (It's taking longer than we thought)."
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)thank you ...
I used to vote for the lesser of two evils. Then I realized that guarantees we will only have a choice between evils in the future. Hillary isn't remotely a person with any decent principles. I will never vote for her. I will vote for Bernie all the way down to the wire.
If nothing else, all the Clinton greed and stupidity besides, I don't want to see hers and Bill's smirking faces for eight years.
Besides, the states Bernie is strongest in are coming up AFTER Super Tuesday. And he has a pile of money.
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)"Fat,distracted and stupid".
Now THERE is a winning strategy. People are distracted because they are overworked, underpaid and exhausted and there is no end in sight. Fat because often times processed bullshit is cheaper than fresh fruits and veggies. And don't get me started on food deserts. Now completely ignore what I typed so you can retain your smug sense of superiority.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)I actually agree on the points you made, particularly as to the cost of eating healthy and refined sugars (as someone who has struggled with my weight my entire life).
"Fat" wasn't literal, it was figurative.
As to our overall lifestyle.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)but an alarming number are. I meet and interact with them every day.
I don't see the OP as a rallying cry to shake the "fat, distracted and stupid" from their indolence and prideful ignorance, but as a warning to people that they exist and we had better plan for them.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I do too.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Many of us do.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)I think I do.
But, I can definitely see what is under the alternative mask in the general election.
And, I can say with absolute certainty that it is INFINITELY worse than what might be under HRC's mask.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Response to Cosmocat (Original post)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)People aren't taking the ball and going home, they're taking the ball and playing elsewhere
And frankly I think that's a good thing
I see the real possibility of a viable third party arising from this election cycle. Nothing's normal about it. The country's ripe for it, climate change will accelerate it since neither the Dems or Republicans will address it.
The planet can't wait any longer. Change is upon us.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)we have to get the nominations sorted out and see how it looks.
I am just trying to emphasize the need to not burn any bridges.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)in the GE. Your entire op leads to that conclusion
Thing is the forces driving the anti-establishment wave aren't easily persuaded to vote HRC. I'm certainly not going to try to persuade anyone to vote for her in the GE.
Those of us who are sick of the status quo are becoming their own force. If Sanders loses, and then doesn't step up and form an Independent Party, I suspect someone else will (and yes I'm certain Sanders would hold off doing such a thing til after the election to give HRC a shot). Climate change will certainly play a huge role in driving towards that since neither party is willing to face the facts.
Pleas to return to the Dem Party are futile at this point no matter the SC threat (because there's also a percentage who believe HRC is such a corporatist moderate her SC selections will be just as bad as an R)
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)You encouraged others to vote for Hillary in the General and they alerted on you anyway.
Before today culminates people need to understand the why
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511378857
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Anybody who would DARE to vote for somebody other than Sanders is "flat fucking stupid". Basically calling out everybody who will not vote for their preferred candidate as "flat fucking stupid". This is so over the top I can guarantee the jury vote against a Hillary Supporter who said the same of Sanders supporters would be 7-0 to hide.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Mar 1, 2016, 07:09 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Hillary supporter here. Alerter needs to take the time to read the whole thing, because that is NOT what the OP said. Leave it. -Dr. Hobbitstein
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alert is a grotesque overreaction. The alerter doesn't appear to have read the whole post, just the cherry picked pieces needed to trip an alert.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: In general the post is not bad. However the arrogance and elitism about voters in general is distasteful. Alerter is correct that if a HRC supporter said Bernie supporters were stupid it would be hidden quickly. No more double-standards. Hide it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: People have a right to this opinion. No one in particular was attacked. Perhaps a little projection is involved with the alerter?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Umm, no. The OP is specifically stating that the issue isn't about Dem politics or the Dem candidates, but Trump voters and people who cannot be bothered to educate themselves on the issues. While I would have phrased it more delicately, his assertion is arguably true.
I interpret his appeal to Bernie voters as an appeal for them to support Clinton in the GE. That the alerter read this post and took it as a dig at Clinton shows they need to re-read the post.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Over the top, and offensive. I predict 6-1 to let it stand.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)If a person took the time to actually read what was said, it was NOT an anti-HRC screed, if anything, it warned Sanders supporters to support her in the GE, lest the stupid people elect Trump.
But the person alerting on this did NOT want to read what was written. Now, having failed to get the post pulled, the question is: Do they read the juror's remarks and reconsider their reaction, or do they willfully ignore that which they do not wish to believe?
overall the response has been more favorable than I feared ...
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)The right does not have a lock on the stupid.
met quite a few.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)American voters on an average are ignorant on the issues.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)and "Some voters are stupid".
That is my experience thus far.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)But people are people, and people like branding more than they like having to take a long view. It appears that a lot more than dust will be settling this year.
WDIM
(1,662 posts)He is going to take it all the way to the Convention.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)but am not very sanguine about the former.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Thanks so much.
Cosmocat
(14,543 posts)don't burn the boats in case it doesn't work out.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)We've been told over and over again to leave the party if we don't like it. OK.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)Thank you Poppa for teaching me that.