DU is making me sad.

[One of the 99]

Particularly this forum. There is so much anger and hostility between Bernie and Hillary supporters. It needs to stop. We have two good candidates who are 1000x times better than any republican currently running.

They say that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Hitler and the Nazi party never won a majority in any German election. The problem was that those who opposed them on the left never united against them. In more recent history, Bush was able to steal the presidency in 2000 because the left was fractured.

Hillary Clinton is a moderate who leans to the left on some issues and to the right on others. Bernie is a true liberal (or progressive if you prefer) who would make a great President. Still either one is better for the future of this country than Trump or Cruz or Rubio.

Does anyone here really want Trump or Cruz appointing the next 2 or 3 Supreme Court justices? I surely don't.

I've often felt that if you can only make a negative case against your opponent then you have no real argument. There are good reasons to support either Bernie or Hillary. Attacks on them only helps the Republicans.

Plus regardless of who is elected, they won't be able to do much with a GOP controlled congress. That is where the real focus should be, getting more Dems elected to the Senate and House as well as State legislatures.

Voting is not just about you and remaining pure on your ideological high horse. It is about the future of our country. So to all the Clinton supporters who claim that Bernie can't be elected and all the Bernie supporters who say the same about Clinton; suck it up and do the right thing for your country. Otherwise you're acting like a spoiled child who takes their ball and goes home because they didn't get their way.

Sorry but really had to get that off my chest. I'm sure some will attack me for it but they will just be showing that they refuse to remove their ideological blinders.

PS To all those who live in a primary state today be sure and get out to vote.

[katmondoo]

1. They are both great candidates

I still do not know who I will vote for in the Florida Primary.

[One of the 99]

6. Forgive me for taking a side here.

But vote for Bernie. Even if he doesn't win the nomination, he is bringing up important issues that too many have ignored until now. But that said we will need to rally around and support whomever does win the nomination.

[insta8er]

254. I respectfully disagree...

One candidate is for the people, the other is in for herself..a shape-shifter whenever it is convenient. If you had followed her talking points from day 1 you would have noticed her change in stance. She is nothing more then a conservative hawk running on the democratic ticket... IN MY OPINION...!!!!

[Chitown Kev]

273. Hillary is a Skrull now?

[jcgoldie]

2. nice

agree 100%

[BlueMTexpat]

3. Much of the nastiness is

not between those who truly support either candidate. In the real world, those I know who prefer the other candidate respect me and my choice, just as I respect them and theirs.

There are lots of newbies who post lots of flamebait. Check my second sign line.

[deutsey]

10. Yeah, it was ugly here in '08

It seems more so this time, but maybe enough time has passed where I don't remember the depth of acrimony.

Like this primary, I also spent much of my time lurking here on the sidelines. I make comments here and there, but I generally try to stay out of the fray. Life's too short to get embroiled in all that crap.

[BlueMTexpat]

14. Too true! eom

[Svafa]

25. IDK, I remember it being REALLY ugly in 08. It's just the nature of primaries.

[deutsey]

33. Yeah, that's why I distance myself from DU during primaries

I haven't got time for the pain, as the old song goes.

[Arkansas Granny]

108. Exactly. I haven't been posting here much for the pst few weeks. 2008 was brutal, especially

for Hillary supporters. I hope things settle down once we have a nominee.

[Gregorian]

4. Hillary is a corporate opportunist. Is that a great candidate?

[One of the 99]

11. Never said she was.

In fact I said she was a flawed candidate. But even with her flaws, she is still better than any of the republicans.

[monicaangela]

251. I've heard this before...

what are you using for comparison? What will she do that will be better than republicans. She will nominate better judges for the Supreme Court? She will advocate for PP, she will uphold equal rights? What exactly will she do? And, if she does all of these things and still caters to the Oligarchs how will that help our planet? How will that bring jobs to this nation? How will that fix the infrastructure in this country? How will that improve healthcare in this nation? How will it stop predatory loans, how will it provide education for our children. How will it stop climate change? How?

[redstateblues]

252. Hillary was one of the most liberal Senators

In Congress. Everything she would do would be light years better than Republicans. She is not a perfect candidate but I think she would build on the progress Obama has made. This whole business of calling her a Republican is just a smear

[randr]

302. If she had stayed on longer

New York would not be a frack free zone today. So much for her liberalism.
She is not as liberal as we all would like especially on very important issues; need I mention the environment, Wall Street reform, international trade agreements, legalization of pot, etal?
Just lookin for a candidate that fits my mood.

[timmymoff]

319. what do you call someone?

who supports free trade deals, fracking, keystone, is in bed with wall st , big pharma, big oil, Wal-Mart etc.. If it isn't a republican you tell me what to call her, other than untrustworthy.

[One of the 99]

264. As far as judges to the Supreme court

do you really think that she appoint conservative ideologues like Trump or Cruz would do? As far as the rest, I don't know her specific policies but I'm sure they are better than any republican.

[monicaangela]

267. I don't think she would appoint an person

as obvious as some republicans would, but that isn't saying very much. The problem we have with democrats is they try to please both parties with their nominations while republicans don't care, they appoint the person who is going to uphold their platform ideals. We need someone who will do this for our side.

[One of the 99]

268. Her husband appointed Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Do you really think that was a bad appointment?

[monicaangela]

274. I think Ruth Bader Ginsburg was an excellent appointment

Stephen Breyer was also an excellent appointment, but that was Bill Clinton and that was a different time. We had not had the crash of 2008, we did not have Citizens United and Clinton had not been impeached at the time. Things have changed since then.

[One of the 99]

276. But do you have any evidence to support your accusation?

Do you have any evidence to support that any democratic president would appoint worse judges to the Supreme Court than a republican president?

[monicaangela]

286. I believe that is a stretch

when did I write that. I did not say any democratic president would appoint worse judges.

[One of the 99]

290. OK then we agree

Any democratic president would appoint better judges to the Supreme Court than any republican president. Which is a good reason to vote for whomever is the democratic nominee.

[Katashi_itto]

20. Agree.

[Le Taz Hot]

5. I find it the height of irony that YOU are telling US

to "suck it up."

If the forum is too much for you, don't come here.

[auntpurl]

7. I completely agree.

I'll be casting my vote for whomever is the Democratic candidate in November. I believe and hope it will be Hillary, but I have absolutely no problem voting for Bernie.

The amount of nasty posting here will decrease by a very large order of magnitude when the primary is over.

I've often wondered why the admins don't make a rule that you can only post positive things about your candidate. I suppose it would be too limiting, free-speech wise, but it does make me feel embarrassed to know the RW loons can come on here and get all their (mostly lies) ammunition for either of our fine candidates, posted on a public forum.

[artislife]

19. If the site did that, it would fold in a week.

Don't be hasty to throw out dissent and debate. It requires one to really think hard why they hold certain beliefs. It has the power to educate, to jostle and create an atmosphere of truly dissecting a subject. Some people jump from one side of an issue to the other through the power of really digesting a powerful post of the opposition.

Way back, I though civil unions were enough. I didn't "get" the need for marriage equality. It was by being blasted by the people who fervently disagreed with me, that I began to ask myself questions about my beliefs. First one was the idea that since one could hide one's gayness, they weren't truly innocent in their victimization from this country. This was hard to see my own prejudice in this instance. I truly began to see this as a civil rights movement. I went from not really caring with a pinch of "oh come on" to being firmly for LGBT rights in this and so much more. I believe the scorched earth and shock and awe on my ass helped me be a better person.

[Glorfindel]

8. Me, too. It reminds me of 1968 and all the savage hatred for Hubert Humphrey. The Result? Nixon

Not a good result at all.

[yardwork]

15. I've been thinking the same.

Just as in 1968 and 1980 and 2000, some progressives actually want the Republican to win because they hope it will cause a revolution. That doesn't happen. Instead we get 8 years of Nixon, 8 years of Reagan, 8 years of w.

The country moves further and further to the right - especially in state governments.

Very discouraging. Anybody who votes for Trump over the Democratic nominee is..... I can't say it here or I'll get banned.

[artislife]

27. But we got them in 1988, 2000 and 2004 without the progressive candidate

I don't think Gore was really a progressive. I also think the fact that the Clintons didn't really help him on the campaign trail sabataged the party's backing of him.

I voted for him, but knew people who voted for Nader. I was mad at them then, but now I get it.

[yardwork]

41. It's too late and too incremental after the extremists.

Letting the extremist right wingers win because Democratic candidates aren't pure enough just pushes the country further and further to the right, causing untold damage.

[artislife]

91. With h we will still be going to the right. nt

[yardwork]

92. If you think Hillary is just as bad as Trump, I don't know what to say to you.

[artislife]

93. Then don't. nt

[dlwickham]

257. I know what to say

but it would get me bounced off of DU

[zappaman]

31. Sure you can say it here.

Anyone who votes for Trump over the Democratic nominee is not a Democrat, but most certainly a fucking nitwit.

[yardwork]

42. I like that. Fucking nitwits!

[Kittycat]

181. Who said you had to vote for Trump if you weren't voting HRC?

People will align themselves with the candidate closest to their values in the voting booth come November. More than two candidates are running. And to my knowledge, HRC hasn't figured out a way to kick Jill Stein off the ballot, yet.

I'm not telling others what to do, I'm just saying - there are huge differences between HRC and Bernie when it comes to my democratic values. I'm full in with Bernie. It takes serious soul searching for HRC. Plus, I'm in a blue state, so I can vote for a cat in November and it wouldn't matter.

[zappaman]

187. I didn't say that at all. I was responding to another poster.

Take it up with someone else.

[JRLeft]

9. Why it's like .0001 of the vote?

[Gamecock Lefty]

12. Here We Go Again . . .

“We need to stop all this hostility towards each other,” yet you say Hillary is a flawed candidate while Bernie is a “true” liberal and would make a great President.

Very slick - you have said to quit talking smack while pretty much talking smack yourself. Nice.

I will say this much. The hostility towards Hillary was here on DU long before we ever started talking smack back to the Bernie supporters – way long before. I have grown unkind because BS supporters keep talking trash about my candidate of choice – and I will continue to do so until it stops.

[One of the 99]

16. My apologies

I wasn't trying attack anyone but be realistic about the situation. But as I said, we all need to support whomever wins the nomination. Be it Bernie or Hillary either is miles ahead of any republican.

[Katashi_itto]

23. Lesser of two evils thing again. Never again for me.

[One of the 99]

30. The lesser of two evils is Trump or Cruz

Not Bernie or Hillary.

[Katashi_itto]

35. No. The choice is death by thousand paper cuts from Hillary. Or a bullet to the head under Trump.

(Cruz, looks like he is on his last legs)

[One of the 99]

38. Well I guess you missed the point.

[Katashi_itto]

64. So did you.

[One of the 99]

70. No I got it.

You refuse to take your ideological blinders off.

[Katashi_itto]

75. f you had remotely gotten it you would not be framing Bernie in your response to my statement.

Try not to drink to much koolaid.

[One of the 99]

78. Framing Bernie?

How am I 'framing Bernie' as you put it?

[Katashi_itto]

80. Lol...whoosh right over your head.

Go try to read what I said and look at your responses.

[One of the 99]

86. I did

And you've don't make a coherent or even factual argument.

[Katashi_itto]

98. Lol...whatever you say.

Personally you might consider remedial reading.

[One of the 99]

101. And you should consider

taking your ideological blinders off.

[Katashi_itto]

102. "ideological" That must be your new word for the day. Good for you!

[One of the 99]

103. Look it up

You might learn something.

[Katashi_itto]

107. Still trying, that's so nice.

You will go far.

[One of the 99]

116. Farther than someone

who refuses to take their blinders off.

[Katashi_itto]

121. Eventually you will get your blinders ripped off

[One of the 99]

128. Weak comeback

[Katashi_itto]

132. Still trying? Lol

[One of the 99]

139. Don't need to try.

[Katashi_itto]

151. Then you wouldnt be responding.

[One of the 99]

153. Neither would you.

[Katashi_itto]

155. See #151

[One of the 99]

159. And you keep responding.

[Katashi_itto]

160. See #151

[One of the 99]

161. Saw it.

Makes no point as usual.

[Katashi_itto]

162. See #151

[One of the 99]

163. You're just proving

that you have no factual, logical argument to make.

[Katashi_itto]

195. See #151

[mythology]

193. Considering you can't bring yourself to admit Sanders and Clinton aren't

That different, you probably shouldn't tell others to not drink the kool-aid. Clinton and Sanders voted the same 93% of the time in the Senate. Sanders is ranked as the most liberal Senator, Clinton the 11th. For reference Rubio is somewhere around the 90th most liberal Senator and Cruz is worse.

[Katashi_itto]

194. See #151

[One of the 99]

198. Repeating the same drivel over and over

Doesn't prove your point. It proves mine.

[Katashi_itto]

199. Still trying? See 151

[One of the 99]

201. Don't need to try.

You're proving my point for me.

[Katashi_itto]

211. Lol your just wanting to keep this pathetic post kicked.

See 151

[One of the 99]

212. You're the one that keeps kicking it

And proving my point in the process.

[timmymoff]

320. That 75 is yuuugee

Iraq war, wall st bailout, etc. etc. I'm not buying what you are selling

[yardwork]

44. Nonsense. /nt

[Katashi_itto]

66. Remember you said that when the effects of TPP become apparent.

[yardwork]

89. At least my wife and I won't have been deported.

[Katashi_itto]

99. Gee that will be a help. Considering what TPP will do the the Job market.

[yardwork]

111. What do you really think will happen to our economy if Trump is elected?

Two former presidents of Mexico - one of our biggest trade partners - said that the country will slap tariffs on our exports. Do you have any idea what would happen to the US economy if we smash our relationship with Mexico?

[Katashi_itto]

115. I have a very good idea. My first degree was in Financial Economics.

[CajunBlazer]

136. I also have a background in economics - so what are the results of a trade war?

Especially one with one of your closest trading pardners?

[Katashi_itto]

137. What are the results of the various wars Hillary will get us into?

Not to Mention TPP, Fracking and supporting Wall Street to name a few?

[CajunBlazer]

146. You deflected and didn't answer the question.

Do you know enough economics to answer the question or not?

[Katashi_itto]

154. LOL...My point is under Hillary we know what will happen. US will undergo a Fire Sale.

Under Trump, how much will a madman get accomplished?

[CajunBlazer]

157. Okay, I understand - you don't know flip about economics

[Katashi_itto]

158. LOL...take a remedial reading class.

[CajunBlazer]

165. I read what you wrote - but I am having trouble believing you

Rather than answering a simple economics question you deflected and then deflected again. That doesn't inspire confidence. I'm obviously wasting my time here. Bye

[Katashi_itto]

167. May I suggest a Critical Thinking course too?

[pinebox]

221. Same! I am not doing the lesser of 2 evils ever again. EVER!

[One of the 99]

241. Trump and Cruz are the lesser of two evils

Bernie and Clinton are not.

[dchill]

67. The hostility towards Hillary ...

predates Bernie's candidacy by more than a decade. Logically, one cannot blame Bernie Sanders for Hillary's many flaws.

[One of the 99]

76. True.

And I never was trying to. Apologies if you got that impression.

[dchill]

84. It's not you...

It's gamecock lefty, to whom I was responding. No apology necessary.

[Orsino]

13. Important things are at stake...

...and we don't even all agree on which things are most important.

But this is what democracy is supposed to look like. Lockstep is for the protofascists on the other side, and this year even they are rather fractious.

[One of the 99]

18. Wow! You really missed the point.

[Orsino]

29. OP may need some editing, then.

I thought the point of it was sadness over our sniping back and forth in the shadow of a possible Republican presidency.

If so, I merely want to reassure you that it's not only normal, but healthy.

[One of the 99]

36. Sadness is due to the nastiness and ugliness

that is going on in some of these threads. Of course there are going to be disagreements over policy. Discussing and debating that is healthy. That is why I think it is so important that Bernie is in the race. He has brought up important issues that need to be discussed. It is the personal attacks that are making me sad.

[Orsino]

39. People are people.

I am also grateful for the substance of Sanders' campaign.

[One of the 99]

46. Doesn't make it right.

People kill each other too and have been for thousands of years.

[Gamecock Lefty]

17. One More Thing I Need to Say for Clarity . . .

if Bernie wins the nomination, I will proudly vote for him in the general. Just because I'm a Hillary supporter does not mean she wins or I stay home. But I hope she wins!!!

[stillwaiting]

21. Sorry. This election is a turning point for many of us.

The coalition has been fractured due to massive amounts of corruption that many of us feel and see clearly.

The Democratic Party is pulling away rapidly, forcefully, and undeniably from many of us. The amounts of corruption and collusion that have been employed forcefully during this Primary could very well be unforgivable.

This is the obvious result of that.

This primary election is different, and I am quite glad. I am very possibly done being taken for granted, mocked, and ridiculed by a political Party that demands I continue voting for them. There is a very real possibility that I will have to leave the Democratic Party depending on what happens with this primary, and I have voted in every Democratic primary and for every Democratic politician that has been on my ballot for 2 decades.

We have a desperate need for reform. If Democratic voters don't seize this opportunity, I believe many will leave the Party. To be fair, many Hillary supporters want this to happen as well. I don't care what these people think. I care how I feel, and I will take the actions I feel I must after this primary.

I voted for Bernie today. Hopefully many others do as well. I don't want to leave the Democratic Party. But, I may have to do so. The day I decide to do that will be the last day I post here.

[One of the 99]

26. Another person who missed the point

and thinks the election is all about you. So sad.

[stillwaiting]

43. I've received your message loud and clear for a very long time thank you very much.

Listen, there is CLEARLY a very high risk that the Democratic Party is going to fracture in the near future. Both Party's Establishments have disregarded a large part of their base for a very long time.

HRC supporters believe many Bernie supporters are bluffing. They openly state this with mocking derision over and over. It very well might not turn out that way this time. HRC, her husband, her daughter, and her surrogates have made it part of their campaign to insult Bernie supporters. Have we ever seen that as a prominent part of a Democratic nominee's campaign before (outside of Hillary's '08 Obama boys meme that is)? Hillary is horrible, and many people in "my" Party seem to be thrilled with her. I think it's very possible I may be in the wrong group.

Many Bernie supporters are not going to be able to vote for a candidate they perceive as a neo-con on foreign policy and is a corporatist on domestic economic policies. We are potentially going with an Establishment candidate that is one of the most hawkish on foreign policy (has neo-con support, in fact) and who has been thoroughly corrupted by Wall Street and corporate interests (in our opinion).
If my fellow Democrats rally behind this person, then perhaps I'm not a Democrat any longer.

I'm not saying I'm definitely not going to vote for HRC right now. I'm saying there is a good chance I'm not, and if that becomes the case I'll gladly leave DU.

[One of the 99]

48. Still missing the point.

Hope you will be comfortable with President Trump.

[stillwaiting]

49. No I'm not. You are. And HRC supporters clearly are.

We have sucked it up for a VERY long time.

You can not continue to take us for granted any longer.

[One of the 99]

53. So it is all about you

and not what is best for the county. Thanks for missing the point again and proving me right.

[stillwaiting]

62. Some Bernie supporters have been quite clear and open about where we are

after decades of moving to the right.

I don't support the current Democratic Party Establishment, the Democratic Party Leadership, and almost all of the Democratic Senators. I trust a few more in the House, but not too many. It's become a corrupt cesspool.

And, Democratic voters are cheering the corruption. That is the point for us whether you choose to understand that or not. You can't demand for us to stand with a Party if it becomes thoroughly entrenched in the corruption (which would be the case with a HRC nomination; NO chance for reform).

We're done here. I've got to add you to the list. I don't like communicating with someone when we are coming from completely different places and clearly don't understand each other's motivations.

[One of the 99]

68. And the way to change that is to let a republican win

That's what happened in '68, '80 and 2000. How well did that work out?

We're done here. I've got to add you to the list. I don't like communicating with someone when we are coming from completely different places and clearly don't understand each other's motivations.

So you're taking your ball and going home. Thanks for proving me right.

[Old Codger]

112. Yup

That persons keyboard is stuck on "you missed the point" but they cannot comprehend the "point" the back and forth , rancorous as it is was originally started by the hill group, and thay have not let it go since then...

The ones that give her the nomination will be the ones responsible for the trump presidency, I will in fact vote for her but it will once again holding my nose and closing my eyes...

[One of the 99]

130. And I see that you missed the point too.

Sorry if my keyboard it stuck. But childishly pointing fingers at who started it is not the solution.

[closeupready]

175. Agree with everything you've posted in this thread.

I'm thinking I'm done, or as close as I've ever been.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

65. Climate change and the sixth global mass-extinction event is happening now

and some are content to plod along

Hillary speaks in republican frames - she is not what we need

This is about earth and everyone's future

the all "about you" crap is meaningless

[One of the 99]

81. And those issues will be better served by a Republican?

The logic of that fails me.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

94. I am not in the "no we can't" camp

We have been given a chance - I find is sad that people are not willing to fight for a better future.

[One of the 99]

96. And the best way to do that is vote

and not sit is out because your preferred candidate didn't win the nomination.

[Gwhittey]

258. And I see that you missed the point too.

It is not about that our candidate lost. I am not some shall bobble head that cares about that. I care that my Candidate if he loses was not given a fair shoot. It like if Micheal Phelps lost all races because he had a 100lb sack on his back. If you don't under stand why many Sanders supporters are saying this I see that you missed the point too.

-If you don't see HRC camp using SwiftBoat tactics to discredit Sanders Civil Right Activism I see that you missed the point too.
-If you don't see how M$M has been paiting a picture of Sanders as losign before race even started I see that you missed the point too.
-If you can't see how HRC starts talking about issues that had caused Sanders to surge and the M$M ignoring it I see that you missed the point too.
-If you don't see how 6 debates vs 26 in 2008 hurts the candiate who has not had 24/7 media coverage for last 8 years is rigging the primaries I see that you missed the point too.

[One of the 99]

259. No I got it but you completely missed it

and can't see beyond your ideological blinders.

[Gwhittey]

263. If wanting a honest and

Non race baiting POTUS is what " ideological blinders" means than I see your point now.

[One of the 99]

265. Thanks

You just proved my point for me.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

213. I agree SoLeftIAmRight

I don't think the people who are posting wanting our agreement to fall in line are actually making some of us see the light finally.

[Arugula Latte]

123. I'm curious if you think there is no limit to the lies, corruption, & backstabbing we should accept

from the Democratic Party Establishment because they have "Ds" by their names and the Republicans are somewhat more loathsome? Do you really think we should accept unlimited amounts of betrayal and sleaziness and undercutting of traditional Democratic ideals from party leaders and poohbahs and the Clintons?

I never thought I'd be one of those people who is "done" with the Democratic party but this primary season has pushed me right up to the brink of that, and I've voted for Democrats in every election since 1984.

[One of the 99]

129. Not saying that we should.

But letting the Republicans win the presidency is not the answer.

[Arugula Latte]

196. How are we going to change this party though? Hillary is basically a Republican.

She has a couple issues she differs with them on, like reproductive rights (which, admittedly, is a huge one). But other than that she and DWS and their cohorts in the media are just Wall St./corporate hucksters.

I'm about to give up on the Democratic Party, and I've supported it faithfully for 32 years. It sickens me to see what it has become. It's like the Republican Party of 20 years ago.

[One of the 99]

197. You change it from within

and not by walking away.

[Arugula Latte]

311. Well, that's why I'm supporting Bernie, but

the party poohbahs are pulling every trick in the book to crush his candidacy, with a major assist from the corporate media.

[One of the 99]

312. Doesn't mean we stop trying.

[Bradical79]

134. No it's not

Instead of saying "it's all about you" it would be more accurate to say "it's never about you". Then you might get it. You can only throw people under the bus so many times before they get fed up with being run over. While I don't think Clinton will be THE breaking point, I think the reaction you're seeing should at minimum be taken as a clear warning shot of things to come. If the Democrats don't get their act together, people even further to the left of Bernie Sanders and to the right of Donald Trump are going to appeal to more and more people. People who call Bernie radical or extreme don't seem to know what real political radicals look like. Unfortunately, the Democrats political establishment have reacted horribly to the changing situation, and pretended "business as usual" and the transparent political gameplaying is a sound strategy going forward.

[One of the 99]

142. I understand what you are saying

But in the end, voting is about the future of the country and sometimes we have to stomach someone who is not perfect because the alternative is so bad.

[artislife]

32. Thanks for voting today! And for Bernie

[Betty Karlson]

37. I second that sentiment.

All the calls for unity don't change the fact that the corruption of democracy is a divisive issue within the Democratic Party, and the rift between elite and rank and file is threatening to split the party horizontally.

Calls for unity don't work unless that division is addressed and taken seriously.

[WhiteTara]

225. Reform under Trump will be brutal.

[dinkytron]

22. Chin up amigo. You are witnessing history.

[zappaman]

24. Both are miles better than the alternatives.

BOTH.

[freebrew]

28. DU is supposed to be a Democratic site...

the TOS state that it is a site for center-left discussion.

HRC is a center-right politician.

Anyone else see a problem?

As for SC appointments, BO wants to nominate a republican?

[SheenaR]

47. Amen x 1000 n/t

[One of the 99]

58. So in other words, you missed the point.

[freebrew]

72. No, I got the point...

I just don't wholeheartedly agree.

There seem to be a lot of posters that are well and truly worried about the future of the nation.
That concern extends to electing a rightward leaning democrat as POTUS.
The rhetoric from the HRC camp is ever changing to the right.
The cheerleaders here are being exposed as 1%ers with no feelings for the less fortunate.
The utter disdain coming from those types is repulsive.
I refuse to use the ignore feature. Some posts are quite revealing.

[One of the 99]

74. No you missed the point.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. The one solace I find

is that whoever the nominee is on our side, the Right will foam at the mouth.

I had a lot of fun this morning asking some Republican coworkers which of three people would they trust with the nuclear launch codes: Trump, HRC or Sanders.

LONG, uncomfortable silence....

[One of the 99]

40. LOL!

[SheenaR]

45. Great sentiment

And this is not an attack

But there are a lot of us (not speaking for everyone) who do not agree with this statement:

We have two good candidates who are 1000x times better than any republican currently running.

We have 1 good candidate who is. We have 1 who is better by default so we don't have to vote for one of them.

[One of the 99]

50. Guess you missed the point too

Hope you can live with President Trump.

[SheenaR]

54. Guess you missed my point

I'll vote for her because I have to. Not because I want to

She is not a good candidate.

Thanks for reading.

Fuck your Trump shit

[One of the 99]

59. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Trajan]

56. For the moment ..

I can live without One of the 99 ...

Good luck with your kindergarten class ...

Gone

[One of the 99]

61. Buh-bye

[Trajan]

51. Your cause is just

But, the Kindergarten teacher approach is bound to fail ...

[One of the 99]

55. Well when some are acting like spoiled children

it is the only approach to take.

[TM99]

269. Do you take that approach in

real life with adults who disagree with you and your 'point'?

I doubt it. Most would tell you where to shove it.

I dismiss anyone who speaks in such a condescending manner to adults.

[One of the 99]

271. When they miss the point

and are too self-righteous to get off their ideological high horse, yes.

[TM99]

272. You have no point.

You are incapable of seeing your own projections. The only self-righteous and stubborn ideologue in this thread is you.

[One of the 99]

275. You really don't get it

So sad.

[TM99]

285. Oh, I definitely get it.

You believe that your own solipsism is the correct and only approach. You believe that anyone who votes against the Democratic nominee is selfish, childish, and not thinking about anyone but themselves.

One person, one vote. Every election is about ourselves and no one else. I do not vote for you, and you do not vote for me. You might think you are voting for something that is different than your own selfish desire, and yet it is still your own selfish desire.

You castigate others here for being equally selfish and hide it behind a veneer of schoolmaster condescension and arrogance.

I get it quite well. The question is do you finally?

[One of the 99]

291. Still not getting.

And for the record, I vote for what is best for my country.

[TM99]

308. Yes, it is true,

you still are not getting it.

You vote for what YOU believe is best for YOUR country. It is your opinion. It is entirely subjective. It may be at odds with reality. It may be at odds with others opinions.

[PowerToThePeople]

52. Nothing can be done

to make me ever cast a vote for Hillary.

Well, that is not entirely true.

She could give me a million dollars and a one way ticket to a decent country that will let me establish citizen status there.

[One of the 99]

57. You really missed the point.

Who will pay for your ticket when Trump is elected.

[PowerToThePeople]

73. No, I got the point

of your loalty oath op completely.

[One of the 99]

79. You just proved that you missed it.

[PowerToThePeople]

83. I'll let the readers of this thread decide.

Eom

[musicblind]

164. I think most readers of this thread feel that the people saying they will not vote for the nominee

are indeed missing the point.

[Tarc]

60. I like Bernie, it is the small core of hardliner followers of his that are nauseating

I have no qualms at all about voting for him if he is the eventual nominee.

The problem is the hardcore Sanders crowd that want to take their ball and go home if their man doesn't win.

[One of the 99]

63. To be fair some on both sides are playing that game.

[taught_me_patience]

88. False equivalency bullshit

There have been a handful of Hillary supporters that have started they will not vote for Bernie. There have been hundreds of Bernie supporters who have claimed they won't vote for Hillary. There are many in this thread alone. Your bias is showing and is destroying any credibility in your original op.

[One of the 99]

90. Never said it was an equal number

Just that some on both sides are playing the same game. Whether it is a handful or hundreds, it is wrong.

[One of the 99]

71. You're welcome.

Too bad so many have missed the point.

[YOHABLO]

77. Ask not ....yeah we get it.

[Capt. Obvious]

82. I voted

and DU gives you the tools to shape your experience. This place doesn't make me sad at all anymore.

[One of the 99]

87. Thanks for voting.

[bigwillq]

85. DU is just a message board. I could never let it get me sad.

I like DU best when everyone is at each other's throats.

[Old Codger]

95. IMHO

We do have 2 candidates but both are not 100% better than the R's, one is but the other one is only about 25% better and she is going got lose anyway so not to worry

[One of the 99]

97. So you missed the point.

And I'll take 25% better than the alternative.

[Old Codger]

110. Not at all

didn't say i wouldn't go that route but just have an opinion that she is not "100%" better, she is only IMHO marginally better...

[One of the 99]

117. Agreed. ;-)

[Punkingal]

100. Respectfully, I think we only have one good candidate.

I don't like the acrimony here, either, having said that.

[cyberswede]

104. It's always like this during primary season.

Things will calm down later (somewhat).

[One of the 99]

106. I hope so.

[tabasco]

105. That's how we ended up with Nixon, too.

The right-wing mass media plays an even bigger part nowadays, in maintaining the division of progressive elements of our society. I see the extremely partisan Clinton and Sanders supporters as tools.

[Dem2]

109. I couldn't possibly agree more

Last edited Tue Mar 1, 2016, 04:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Thank you for posting this and you will not be attacked by me, you will get nothing but praise. I would hug you if I could.

[One of the 99]

118. Thanks.

[Kaleva]

113. DU is an internet forum and it's not worth getting sad or angry about anything here.

[alarimer]

114. A fundamental divide in the Democratic Party that cannot be breached.

Unlike what many Wall Street Dems claim, things are not getting better, not for the 99%. They have been sliding backwards for decades, at least since Reagan and with the complicity of middle-of-the-road Dems like the Clintons and Obama. They will not do anything to help; things they have done have actually made it worse.

These are not ideological blinders; we need to figure out what the Democratic party is actually about. Is it about helping people? And doing what is best for the vast majority of people? Or is it about kowtowing to Wall Street and making sure the banks are happy, while people sink ever further?

And yes, the wingnuts refuse to even participate in the process. I don't know what to do about that, except to keep exposing their idiocy, and not even try to work with them.

Yes, change is hard and takes a long time. I'm under no illusions about that. Personally, I think the system is permanently broken. But I do think it's important to send a message that "We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore."

[One of the 99]

119. Letting a republican get elected is sending a message?

How did that work out in 1968 or in 2000?

[marions ghost]

120. If the Democratic Party goes for Hillary

--Bernie supporters may vote for her in 16, but you will see a mass exodus from the party IMO.

It will be the end of "liberal" support I predict.

[One of the 99]

127. So what you're saying is

that some will just take their ball and go home. I hope that is not true.

[marions ghost]

135. No, read it again

I said that some may of us be forced to vote for the Dem candidate we know is wrong for the country, but that will spell total stomach-churning misery for those who do. It will feel like a failure--even if she wins. Afterwards I suspect there will be no more "Liberal wing" of the party to throw crumbs to. I'm sure the Millennials will not vote at all if Hill is the candidate. Many repercussions for that loss.

I know that if I have to vote for Hillary, after 25 years of supporting Dem party candidates (working for, giving, following local races) I will be going elsewhere. Bernie gives me the hope there would be a practical "elsewhere" to go. I feel like I have found my tribe, and things look different now. I want real change, and integrity in government, and real Democracy. Hillary has shown she isn't about that good stuff. Call it idealistic--I call it a realistic Plan B, thanks to Bernie.

Nobody believes Hillary will be "pulled to the left" if elected (which I don't feel is certain at all against Trump). The only way the Dem Party will pull to the left is IF Bernie Sanders is elected. I have never believed anything with more conviction. This is a watershed moment in this country.

thx for ur reply

[One of the 99]

138. I read what you said

I just hope that it is not true. Fracturing the party is not the answer. Reforming from the inside is the best bet.

[marions ghost]

141. It. Has. Not. Worked.

I thought you are right about 20 years ago. Not any more.

[One of the 99]

144. Neither has the alternative.

It didn't work in 2000 or 1968.

[marions ghost]

147. Too many reasons for that

--to argue here--

1968. Long ago. If people thought things were bad then....

And 2000--what a mess that was--you can't even rationally analyze what worked and what didn't.

It's a new day. Try not to be stuck in the past, otherwise it's just same old, same old. There really is an alternative to this nonsense. But it requires some very major reform. Bernie is the only one positioned to even give it a try. We are lost in the wilderness. The rise of Trump proves that if nothing else.

[One of the 99]

148. Yes it needs to be reformed

and it can only be done from the inside.

[marions ghost]

149. Used to think that

--I am done now.

[One of the 99]

152. Sorry to hear that.

It's people like you who are needed the most.

[marions ghost]

156. There are many like me out there

...old timers in the process.

Fed up.

[closeupready]

176. I survived both times.

[One of the 99]

178. It's not all about you

It's about what is best for the country. And there are thousands of killed and wounded thanks to Bush stealing the Presidency in 2000. More due to Nixon's victory in 1968.

[closeupready]

179. You asked how it worked out for me, now you say it's not about me.

Make up your mind.

[One of the 99]

180. Not what I asked.

I asked

How did that work out in 1968 or in 2000?

[closeupready]

182. I answered, you just don't want to hear contradictory ideas.

The political is personal, and the personal is political.

[One of the 99]

184. Again you're making it all about you

[closeupready]

191. The political is personal, and the personal is political.

"...one can make personal choices in response to or protest against the political status quo; … one's personal choices reveal or reflect one's personal politics; one should make personal choices that are consistent with one's personal politics; personal life and personal politics are indistinguishable."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_personal_is_political

[One of the 99]

202. Still making it all about you

and not about what is best for your country.

[closeupready]

239. The political is personal; the personal, political.

You can ignore the truth of that reality. I have no power or desire to change your ideas.

have a great week!

[One of the 99]

240. Repeating it over and over

doesn't make it true.

[Gwhittey]

266. You do realise that GOP

Think they are acting best for there country to. If they can be mislead by the GOP party is it not possible our DNC leaders are lying too?

[One of the 99]

270. You have proof they are lying?

Or is that one of your ideological beliefs? And before you make the lesser of two evils argument, do you really think Barack Obama was the lesser of two evils? That Al Gore was the lesser of two evils?

[steve2470]

122. excellent message, thank you

Defeating the Republicans is the highest priority. Secondary to that is moving the Democratic Party and the nation to the left.

[One of the 99]

126. Thanks.

Nice that someone gets it.

[Broward]

124. Accepting the lesser of two evils approach has contributed

to the steady rightward march of both parties and will continue to do so.

[One of the 99]

125. And letting the greater of two evils win the election

will somehow stop that? How did that work out in 2000?

[Shankapotomus]

143. We haven't accepted the lesser of two evils

A wonderful and valiant effort is being made to nominate Bernie Sanders that, if it doesn't pay off in this election, it surely will when Elizabeth Warren runs.

[jeff47]

131. Voting is also not only about this election.

For my entire adult life, the Democratic party has blackmailed me into voting for candidates I do not like.

I'm rather tired of that.

I've tried to work within the party to do something about it. The leadership is very much not at all interested in changing from their current position of "you are fucking retarded" (hat tip to Rham). You've probably heard about the party screwing over Lamont for Lieberman as one example. On a smaller level, the county party took away a leadership "seat" rather than risk me winning it, because I'm not their kind of Democrat.

I am out of options to get the party to actually care about the base.

[tymorial]

133. Emotions run high which lead to misunderstanding and eventual conflict

Some people take support of their candidate very personally and as such have an emotional investment. Second, words on a screen cannot convey the full extent of communication. All we have are words on a screen. Body language, vocal inflection and facial expression are absent. Combine the two and misunderstandings and emotional response become the norm. Sort of a variation on a theme of Poe's law.

Also, as tensions run high and arguments become common place, it is inevitable for comments and questions (submitted in earnest) to be taken as attack. A question meant to clarify can be viewed as hostile. Such is the nature of political forums.

[One of the 99]

140. Great post!

Thanks!

[andym]

145. It's good vs evil for many

Last edited Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

The primaries attract DUers who see in things in black and white.
Go back in the DU archives and look at the primary campaigns in 2004 and 2008. The vitriol is really high.
Dean's, Clark's and Edwards' supporters were throwing wild accusations, with being a Republican or DLCer etc the highest form of opprobrium. In 2008, Clinton vs. Obama same thing.

[One of the 99]

150. I thought only

those on the right looked at things is such extreme ways. Maybe I am expecting too much from those here.

[andym]

170. Politics attracts people with extremist and intolerant views among others.

The intolerant tend to be louder. Human nature being what it is. DU is infamous for having very heated debates that often become personal. Of course there are friendly discussions as well.

[CoffeeCat]

166. I truly respect and understand the gist of your message

You would like to see more harmony and peace--and the Democratic party united to defeat the Republicans (most likely Trump).

I agree with you that a Trump presidency would be unthinkable. His views on immigrants alone should disqualify him from any public office. And the Supreme Court is very important and it looks like Obama will be blocked on nominating anyone (which is disgusting).

I understand the spirit of your post. You said that you are "sad" about the anger and hostility. I'm just one opinion, but maybe it would help for you to understand that I'm not angry or hostile. I am truly afraid. I am afraid of Hillary Clinton becoming my President.

I do understand her appeal. She's an articulate person. She's championed healthcare and she has solid experience in government. I get that some focus on her positives and ignore the negatives. As you said, she "leans left on some issues and leans right on others."

And I think this gets to the heart of why I am afraid of her.

Did you know that last week, the founder of the neocon movement, Robert Kagan, endorsed Hillary? This man hatched the entire war plan to decimate the Middle East. The neocons rose to power in the Bush Administration (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Armitage, Bolton, George Bush) and they finally got into Iraq--by lying to the American people. These people, in my mind, are the most frightening thing to have ever happened to the United States. They have murdered 300,000 Iraqis--all for profit. That is their goal. They're not doing this to help anyone or to bring peace to the region. They want the region destroyed and weakened, so the US can profit from their misery. Murder for profit.

Kagan, endorsed Hillary over any of the Republican nominees. Does that tell you something? I find it horrifying. So, some of the anger you hear--really is fear and concern about the future.

DU used to be united against the neocons. You would have felt more comfortable at DU back in those days. It was peace and harmony because we were all aghast at Bush's illegal and lie-based wars. There wasn't a person on DU who justified the sociopathic neocon plans or actions. Now, we have Hillary being endorsed by the founder of the neocon movement.

I find this "progress" so terrifying.

Furthermore, our politicians are now owned by the corporations. The politicians do not serve the people any longer. They serve corporate interests. This is why the 2008 crash happened--Wall Street paid our politicians to deregulate them and roll back Glass Steagall. This is why healthcare prices are so high--the Health Insurance lobby prevented any price controls in Obamacare. This is why we pay so much for prescription drugs in the US and other countries don't--The Pharmaceutical lobby has purchased influence in the US. I could list 100 examples of how we are screwed while the corporations and the rich are raking it in.

Hillary Clinton participates in this system. She takes millions from Wall Street and other corporate interests. She says these millions don't influence her, but really--this money should not be in our political system PERIOD! It is corrupt and it is wrong.

This is why I cannot support Hillary Clinton. I did not adopt these opinions a few months ago. I've been concerned about the neocons and about corporate corruption in our government--for more than a decade.

I'm not asking you to change your mind about Hillary. But maybe you will allow yourself to understand that some people who don't support her, do so for reasons that are thoughtful and based on years of paying attention.

Just as it's painful for you to watch the disharmony, it's painful for me to watch one of our party leaders earn the endorsement of the founder of the bloodthirsty, neocon war movement--and also take corrupt money from powerful corporations who have destroyed our economy and left many people unable to afford medication or healthcare.

[One of the 99]

168. Guess you missed the point.

And why are you not afraid of Trump winning the election? That would really be much more painful.

[closeupready]

192. How, I'm asking, can it be that all opposing views are"missing the point"????

[One of the 99]

200. Nice diversion

But doesn't answer the question about why aren't you afraid of a Trump presidency.

[ladjf]

169. I disagree with your statements that we have "two great candidates". nt

[One of the 99]

171. Thats not what I said.

I said two good candidates. And if you're not a crazy about either, they are still better than anything the GOP has to offer.

[ladjf]

172. Correction noted: You said "good". I misquoted you by saying "great".

I disagree that we have two "good" candidates.

[One of the 99]

173. They are still better than Trump.

[ladjf]

174. That statement, I might agree with, but haven't decided yet. nt

[One of the 99]

177. A bad Democrat is still better than a good Republican

[ladjf]

190. That has been my thought for many years. However, this year has me

worried.

[One of the 99]

204. You really think that President Trump

would be better for the country than Bernie or Clinton?

[ladjf]

206. I totally disagree with your opinion. nt

[One of the 99]

207. So you think that Trump would be good for the country?

[ladjf]

208. No. I misread your post. Trump would be a terrible disaster for America.

He might even attempt an actual coup and take over as a dictator.

[One of the 99]

210. OK cool!

[RiverLover]

218. That's what crazy repubs say about Obama. /nt

[ladjf]

287. A few weeks before JFK was assassinated, he

said that it would be relatively simple for an American President to turn the Gvt into a dictatorship.
He said that he was going to address the American People about this before he left office.

I doubt that Trump has enough sense to pull it off. But, any President who greatly admires Hitler isn't to be trusted.

[NHDEMFORLIFE]

183. Feeling better

The OP perfectly articulated my my feelings. The Republicans are imploding before our very eyes and we look quite capable of wasting this opportunity to give them a beating to remember.
I voted for Bernie in the NH primary and did so proudly. It's great to see a candidate stand up for traditional liberalism and not feel compelled to apologize. If he is the nominee he will take the fight right to whatever candidate the Republicans prop up.
Realistically, I understand that the chances of Bernie winning the nomination are slim. And if he doesn't, the Democratic nominee will get my vote.
Hillary may not be the best Democratic nominee to come down the pike, but she is one hell of a lot closer to Bernie than anyone else who will be on the ballot.
Hillary, and her supporters, are not the enemy! Let the Republicans sink into civil war and, for once, let us be united and march through the door they are leaving wide open.

[One of the 99]

185. Thanks

Great post. And don't give up on Bernie, the west coast could go for him big.

[Sunlei]

186. I like them both, my Yin & Yang Dream Team. What I'm thrilled about is how The Donald made Jeb cry!

A year ago who would have thought the republicans, billion dollar Prince would Cry and Quit.

[PunkinPi]

188. Where I am...

and I would hope HRC primary voters would do the same if Bernie is the GE nominee.

[pdsimdars]

189. I think if you go to the Hillary group they'll give you hugs.

[One of the 99]

203. Not looking for hugs

More concerned about what is best for the country and another Republican president is not what is best.

[gordianot]

281. Both groups get testy to criticisms or anything they initially perceive to be critical.

I managed to get kicked out of the Hillary group

[randr]

205. As Democrats we have but one task

To nominate a candidate that has fought for our issues and, most importantly, that can stand up to the eventual Republican nominee.
A serious check list of pros and cons for each of our candidates is rather easily done.
A reality check on the current political climate in our Nation tells us what the voting population is demanding.
This is not rocket science.

[One of the 99]

209. Don't disagree

But what I'm worried about is those who's preferred candidate doesn't win the nomination refusing to vote for the nominee. There were the PUMAs in '08, some of whom actively supported McCain. Luckily they didn't have much impact.

[randr]

232. The dark side of a free Democracy

The people who neglect their civil duty to participate actually create the world we all are left to live in.

[One of the 99]

234. Very true!

[Shadowflash]

214. ''Voting is not just about you and remaining pure on your ideological high horse.''

I absolutely disagree.

If people did more of THIS rather than just settle for the best we are given. Things might change.

As long as people are willing to settle for less 'for the good of the country' we are going to keep GETTING less.

[One of the 99]

216. So allowing a republican to win

will help things change? How did that work out in 2000?

[Shadowflash]

219. See. This is the problem.

We keep trying to get scared into, or blackmailed into voting for this candidate or that one 'For the good of the country'.

If everybody just voted for the candidate they actually ALIGNED with the most, I think, eventually we'd get better choices when the parties caught on. It might take a cycle or two. But I, for one, am tired of having to hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils for the 'good of the country'.

If Donald Trump wins the presidency over Hillary Clinton, it's not the fault of people like me who won't vote for Republicans. It's the fault of the Democratic Party for nominating a Republican.

[One of the 99]

220. That's true in the primary

But it is very different in the election. This the same argument that some made in 2000. Do you really think the country was better off with Bush rather than Gore as president?

[Shadowflash]

222. obviously not.

But I'm voting, in the GE, for the candidate who most aligns with my values and the policies I wish to see implemented. Period. If it's the Dem candidate, like Sanders, then great. If not, then not.

Like I said, I'm not interested in voting for the lesser of two evils and, if more people voted their conscious, rather than be bullied into voting for a lesser candidate, It would be a huge change and the parties would take notice. As long as we happily vote for whomever the big two throw up there, we are just going to keep getting the same shit to vote for.

Make no mistake, I WILL vote in the GE and it WILL NOT be for a candidate who supports, or has supported, conservative policies, be it the GOP nominee or the DNC nominee.

[One of the 99]

224. Then you are just helping the GOP

just as many did in 2000. Will you then take responsibility for your actions resulting in a Trump presidency?

[Shadowflash]

227. Yup.

If by 'take responsibility for your actions resulting in a Trump presidency?' you mean 'voting for who I deem to be the best candidate for the job' (which is what EVERYBODY should be doing!) then, yes, I will own my decision.

[One of the 99]

236. Good for you

Too bad so many who supported Nader in 2000 still refuse to do so.

[pberq]

255. Here we go with the Nader meme. Never mind that it has been repeatedly disproved. nt

[One of the 99]

260. Never been disproved

[pberq]

288. Sorry. Do the research.

[One of the 99]

289. I have

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

[DefenseLawyer]

215. With all due respect, I don't think Secretary Clinton is a great candidate

I don't think she's a "terrible" candidate, but her neoconservative views on foreign policy and her views on trade and wages in particular keep her from being "great" for me. For me replacing the New Deal with the Third Way is a disaster for the party and for the country. Of course I am admittedly farther left than the average bear, so I am only speaking for myself.

[One of the 99]

217. Never said that she was.

But either Bernie or Clinton is still better that any republican.

[pinebox]

223. I'm never voting for the Republican running on the Democratic ticket!

Sorry but I am not doing it nor am I never voting for the lesser of 2 evils, ever again.
And before you say "it's all about me", it isn't. It's about the millions of people who work their asses off who can't get by working 2 jobs in this country. Things will NOT change for them if Hillary is the nominee. In fact they will get worse.
Sorry but I refuse to be an enabler any more in a corrupt system which has hurt millions with a potential candidate who supported policies which started the ultimate downfall of the middle class with NAFTA, bad banking deals, welfare reform, can't support legalizing pot which has millions locked up for stupid offenses and voted for a damn border wall.

Hell no and #HillNo!

Should Hillary be the nominee, Dems have set themselves up for a perfect storm to get an ass kicking.

[One of the 99]

226. And they won't get worse if Trump or Cruz is president?

[pinebox]

228. You know what?

Again. Lesser of 2 evils. Nope, not doing it.
This is why I am an indy and I joined Dems to caucus for and support Bernie. I thought about sticking around but I'm not. Not when it's all "vote for our weak sauce corrupted candidate or we get Trump/Cruz!". No. How about actually giving us a candidate who fights for us and has been for 3 decades? Someone people actually beliveve instead of the candidate who is going to get impeached on day 1.

FFS, if Hillary is the nominee her VP pick better be awesome because that is who the next POTUS is going to be.

[Shadowflash]

229. You are correct

If Donald Trump wins the presidency over Hillary Clinton, it's not the fault of people like me who won't vote for Republicans. It's the fault of the Democratic Party for nominating a Republican.

[pinebox]

230. Precisely

and I want someone to explain to me how things would be different under Trump than they would be under Hillary. Seriously, I would love to hear that because honestly, I don't see it.

A vote for Trump is a vote for more war. Gee, that doesn't sound familiar at all.

[Shadowflash]

233. Well

To be fair HRC is just GOP lite and Republican WITHOUT the crazy.

But she has stood for things her whole political life, until she decided to run for president and had to change her positions, that align more with Republican policies than Democratic policies, and I just can't bring myself to vote for her either.

[One of the 99]

237. As the saying goes..

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

[Shadowflash]

243. And, if I sat out the election....

...You'd be correct and I would be doing nothing.

I am, however, going to vote AND I'll be voting for the best person for the job.

[One of the 99]

235. So your argument is

if I don't get my way, I'm taking my ball and going home. So will you take responsibility for the consequences of your actions when Trump or Cruz is elected president? Or just continue to blame everyone else.

[pinebox]

238. No my argument is

I will vote for what I believe in and what I think is the best for the people who struggle every day in the country and that is NOT a vote for Hillary. There are OTHER choices.
As far as your assertion of Trump/Cruz, you know what, I don't see a lot of differences between them and Hillary.
Wars. Minimum wage. On and on.

So tell me again, why should I vote for the Dempublican? Sorry, not doing it.

[One of the 99]

242. In the primary there are other choices

and if other voters agree with you, then the candidate that you support wins the nomination. But in the election there are only two choices. The Democrat or the Republican. And if you don't see the difference, then you're not looking hard enough.

[LWolf]

231. Let me explain

the roots of the anger and the hostility.

For many of us, we've watched the neo-liberal takeover of the party for decades now. Watched as the priniciples that brought us to the party have been eroded, dismantled, and, finally, destroyed. When we've spoken up, election after election after election, we've been treated disdainfully, disrespectfully, and have been taken for granted. When we wanted to nominate and elect Democrats who were not neo-liberals, who would actually represent us, we've been bludgeoned with the "unelectable," the "unicorn/pony," the "spoiled child who takes their ball and goes home because they didn't get their way," the "what you want isn't possible so shut up, get in line, and vote the way those of us who are smarter/more pragmatic tell you to."

Finally we've got a candidate who can transcend that; who has had a chance to defeat the corporate/established/neo-liberal crowned choice, and we've watched people who have claimed for years to be one one side of issues turn on those issues to defend that corporate/established/neo-liberal crowned choice; watched and listened as they determinedly set things in motion to make sure we'll be stuck, yet again, with that corporate/established/neo-liberal crowned choice.

Angry? Hostile? Those are mild words to describe what some are thinking and feeling. And your invoking the usual attack on those who don't support the corporate/established/neo-liberal crowned choice does more to inflame the situation than not. "Voting is not just about you and remaining pure on your ideological high horse."

Frankly, I, and there may be others, disagree with your opinion about HRC. She is not a good candidate, and she is not "1000x times better than any republican currently running." Let me explain:

First of all, this primary fight is not only about November. It's also about the future of the Democratic Party. The revolution, as such, is about the direction of the nation, and about whether or not the Democratic Party is going to be an ally in that revolution. The nomination of a neo-liberal makes the party irrelevant, and ensures ineffectiveness in the years ahead.

Secondly, understand this: while I have never voted for nor supported a Republican, and don't see that ever happening in my lifetime, the real enemy comes from within; from those within the Democratic Party who betray us in the reach for political power. The betrayers are the neo-liberals. If we cannot defeat the enemy within, we aren't going to prevail against the Republican enemy. Electing another neo-liberal is a huge win for Republicans. They can achieve a whole bunch of their agenda while trumpeting propaganda about how terrible the neo-liberal POTUS is, moving the conversation in whatever direction they like, while the Democrats in Congress stay quiet and allow it as a show of support for that neo-liberal. At least, with a bat-shit crazy R in the WH, there would BE an opposition party.

Finally: If Clinton supporters really cared about winning in November, they would have backed Sanders, who has consistently been more electable against Republicans than Clinton. Clinton, who currently has the primary advantage for the nomination, is going to lose in November. And her apologists will have no one but themselves to blame. Not that we can't see the blame game coming. It's right there, embedded in your post. You know; the disdainful "you're acting like a spoiled child who takes their ball and goes home because they didn't get their way." In other words, if Clinton supporters don't want to listen, or to acknowledge that they are setting us up for a loss in November, it's not because they were wrong, or because they backed the wrong candidate, it's because of "spoiled children" who don't march in the line their betters told them to. If that doesn't feed anger and hostility, I don't know what does.

You want people to vote for the Democrat in November? I've got two suggestions:

1. Nominate someone who brings people together to do just that.

2. Earn the votes, rather than taking them for granted and marginalizing voters.

Take off your own fucking "ideological blinders." All you've done here, with your faux "concern" about anger and hostility, is expose your own and inflame the rest.

[One of the 99]

245. So you missed the whole point

[LWolf]

247. No, I think I got the whole point.

Hostility and anger makes you sad. We should just forget all the reasons behind that hostility and anger, even when you throw them in our faces with some of the phrases that sparked the flame to begin with. You'd be happier if we did.

You think we don't take Republicans seriously enough.

You obviously missed the whole point of my response, yourself: clean up the neo-liberal disease destroying the party from within before you try to focus people on the outside problems, or the party won't be strong and healthy enough to be effective in the larger world.

[One of the 99]

248. No my point was a call for unity and

civility because this country can't afford Trump or Cruz as president. You decided to go on a nasty ideological rant. Obviously you are more ruled by your hatreds than anything else. And history has proved that your 'my or the highway' approach has actually achieved the opposite of what you want. With each loss to the GOP over the last 30 years, the Democratic party has moved more to the middle. The DLC was a reaction to 3 losses in a row.

[LWolf]

249. A call for "unity" and "civility"

couched in the very terms, and the very attitude, that helped spark the flames of anger and hostility in the first place, as I pointed out.

[One of the 99]

250. So you're argument is

that asking that everyone try to work together is a bad thing?

[LWolf]

283. How disingenuous of you.

No.

My argument is that a call for unity using the language that helped cause disunity to begin with is not helping your cause.

[One of the 99]

293. So by your logic

someone who advocates for peace is really just whipping up a frenzy for war? Interesting.

[LWolf]

313. When that someone does so

by using the language that sparks that frenzy? Yes.

[One of the 99]

314. It's not the language that sparks the frenzy

it's refusing to listen to the message.

[LWolf]

315. Bullshit.

Couch a message in language that reaches out, rather than patronizes and demeans, and you'll get listeners.

Slap people with demeaning language, and you spark anger.

Your own inability to acknowledge this is either:

1. Strongly disingenuous on your part, meaning you are helping to set up scapegoats for Clinton losses in November, or

2. Truly ignorant of the anthill you are stirring.

If you really wanted unity, you'd look at the message you are sending and adjust it accordingly.

[One of the 99]

316. That's what people who refuse to listen always say.

[LWolf]

317. Exactly.

You win the award for irony.

[One of the 99]

318. Thank you, thank you very much!

[pberq]

256. "Electing another neo-liberal is a huge win for Republicans" - excellent and so true! eom

[mymomwasright]

244. I agree with most dissenters here and would add..

One cannot change this party from within if the person (POTUS) in question is running the party.

[One of the 99]

246. The dissenters here

are no better than the PUMAs in '08.

[Warren DeMontague]

253. some people have major issues and are just using the primary as the latest excuse to air them out

Next year it will be onto something else.

[One of the 99]

261. I hope so.

But one thing that disturbs me is those that keep saying they are asked to vote for the lesser of two evils. Was Barack Obama the lesser of two evils? Was Al Gore the lesser of two evils?

[Warren DeMontague]

262. I had some friends I couldnt have conversations with for a couple years, over Ralph Effin' Nader

so you don't have to tell me.

Once we have a nominee, then uniting behind the nominee will become paramount. We don't have a nominee, yet, though.

[Rebkeh]

277. If progressives continue to

vote out of fear of the other side, we will never make progress.

[One of the 99]

278. And letting a Republican get elected

makes progress? How did the work out in 2000?

[Rebkeh]

279. Voting out of fear is a win for them anyway eom

[One of the 99]

280. Letting them win is a win for them

Not voting to stop them.

[Rebkeh]

284. No, that's not what I mean

The Democratic Party has been co-opted by the right, when you vote for the standard party person, the vote goes to the other side anyway.

I said nothing about "letting them win."

[One of the 99]

292. How so?

I've been hearing that for years, "The Democratic Party has been co-opted by the right". So is President Obama just a tool of the right? Is VP Biden a tool of the right? Was Al Gore a tool of the right?

[Rebkeh]

294. The people are not the tools, the party is

This is what happens when you adhere to party instead of principle, the party changes and the people go with them, even after the party has changed devolved beyond recognition. The slow creep is not going to work on everyone, thankfully. Tribalism gone amok is dangerous and always has been.

As for POTUS and VP, the elected leaders have to perform their duties delicately, I accept that. The rest of us do not.

If the party wants loyalty, it should be loyal to democratic (no pun intended) principles.

[One of the 99]

296. But if the party is then so would the candidates they put up for office

So is President Obama a tool of the right?

And isn't loyalty to democratic principles accepting the nomination of the person who got the most votes in the primary process?

[Rebkeh]

309. I've already addressed both questions in the above posts

I'm done here, I don't do circular conversations that have no benefit.

[UMTerp01]

282. Completely Agree

I agree. Is Hillary everything I want in a candidate? Nope. Is Bernie everything I want in a candidate? Nope. I'm undecided and will have to choose by late April. I do know that either of them is better than anything the ReTHUGlicans will put up. I'm new and am surprised there is so much nastiness when we should be on the same side for these things. I get it about Hillary. I don't like her Wall Street ties either, but the vitriol that is being sent her way seems a bit much. But, everyone is entitled to their own feelings, their own opinion, and hopefully we just all stay respectful and convalesce around the nominee once this is over.

[TBF]

295. Go take a walk -

it will cheer you up.

I am very sorry but we're not giving in because you're "sad". You know what makes me sad? Homelessness, war, poverty, citizen's united, the third way takeover of the party, reading that folks cannot distinguish between left & right policies ("Hillary and Bernie are just the same&quot - those are things that make me sad. And they also make me angry.

When you are ready to talk politics come on back.

[One of the 99]

297. Wow, you really missed the whole point

[TBF]

298. Oh I got the point -

but your little fall in line story isn't working on me. Sorry.

[One of the 99]

300. No you missed the point.

As your post proves

[TBF]

303. Take a walk -

your little post did not work and I am not supporting Hillary. Not in 2008, not now, not in the future. And the games from her supporters push me further away from organized politics. I'm willing to say that & there are probably 25 lurkers nodding their heads "yup".

Saying "no you missed the point" a million times will not help you.

[One of the 99]

304. But you have missed the point

And you seem way too invested in your anger.

[TBF]

306. See below -

nt

[TBF]

305. From your post above (which proves my argument):

One of the 99 (1,699 posts)
290. OK then we agree

Any democratic president would appoint better judges to the Supreme Court than any republican president. Which is a good reason to vote for whomever is the democratic nominee.

You are not "sad" about anything. You are on a mission to get your directive out.

Ok, we've all heard the talking point. We can't miss it with 20 of you signing up every day to bang us over the head with it.

[TBF]

307. And another post that proves my point

One of the 99 (1,700 posts)
16. My apologies

I wasn't trying attack anyone but be realistic about the situation. But as I said, we all need to support whomever wins the nomination. Be it Bernie or Hillary either is miles ahead of any republican.

Over and over and over. Get that message out.

[One of the 99]

310. No it just further proves that you missed mune.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

299. I was at a Caucus over the weekend in Nebraska

LD 31. It was close, but Sanders won. What struck me was that both sides were civil, and avoided (for the most part) knocking the other side.

[One of the 99]

301. That's great

That's how it should be.