Massachusetts and Virginia were huge wins for Hillary.

[DCBob]

These wins establish that she is capable of winning outside of the south. Virginia, although historically is considered a southern state, its really not at all. VA is more like Pennsylvania than Georgia. These wins suggest that Hillary will do well in the rust belt states and midwest. If so, Bernie cannot possibly win the nomination. The west coast and other caucus states are not enough to make up the gap.

[tymorial]

1. A primary win in Massachusetts is meaningless

IT wouldn't matter who was the nominee come November. Massachusetts would still go blue. It has for more than 30 years.

Virginia is more telling... the fact that she lost Minnesota and Colorado is troubling in my opinion.

[DCBob]

7. We are talking about winning the nomination.

Gotta win that first.. right?

[tymorial]

11. Okay I get what you are saying

I support Sanders but I don't see him winning at this point so I was looking at this from a November perspective.

[retrowire]

89. You don't see Bernie winning at this point?

The contest is only 24% done and Obama didn't win Super Tuesday either.

way too soon to throw in the towel.

[Agschmid]

15. Please stop saying people voted are "meaningless".

[tymorial]

36. I don't understand your comment

[Agschmid]

68. Please stop saying people's votes are meaningless.

Grammer error the first time around, sorry.

[tymorial]

71. That really wasn't my intent

If you took it that way I apologize. I misunderstood the OP, I thought he was referring to the general and not further primary elections. I meant that a majority of Massachusetts voters will support a democrat candidate come November because this state in particular is all but a foregone conclusion. I did not imply that any particular vote is irrelevant or that the voter doesn't have their own personal reasons for why they vote in a particular way.

[Agschmid]

73. Thank you.

[tabasco]

97. grammar n/t

[thesquanderer]

18. ALL primary wins are meaningless in terms of what will happen in the GE.

Candidates lose states big in the primaries and win them in the GE all the time (and vice versa).

Seeing how Clinton fares against Sanders in ANY state does not tell you how either would fare against Trump (or whoever) in that state.

The OP considers Hillary's MA win significant, not because of anything having to do with the general, but because he feels it bodes well for her to be able to win other non-southern primary states.

Personally, I don't see that significance, though. I mean, I think everyone expected her to win some non-southern states regardless, and MA was no blow out (and AFAIK was never expected to be a blowout). With about 1 point difference, it could as easily have gone the other way, and I think Hillary would be none the worse off for it, in terms of what it bodes for other primaries. When it's 49-point-something for one candidate and 50-point something for the other, bragging rights aside, I don't think it matters which candidate is which in terms of those figures' ability to represent a bellwether for other states.

[EndElectoral]

47. She has a 0.6% lead in Massachusetts.

[vdogg]

54. 1.6%

[Agschmid]

69. Yes she outperformed expectations.

Bernie had been claiming Mass for a week.

[noamnety]

103. What were the polls saying?

I thought generally outperforming or underperforming was based on comparisons to polls.

Hillary Clinton Holds Eight-Point Edge Over Bernie Sanders in Massachusetts - Feb 28 http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511366618

Hillary opens up ... 11% lead in Massachusetts. Feb 29
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511375829

U-Mass Amhert Poll: HRC leads 47-44 feb 29 (thread notes poll is from Feb 19 and her lead widened tp 11%)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110759868

This is just a quick search - but the conclusion I draw is that Bernie outperformed expectations and Hillary fell significantly short of expectations in MA.

[Agschmid]

107. Bernie was planning a win in MA.

As recently as the day before his campaign was ramping up expectations.

[noamnety]

109. Your framing implies some double standards.

Did Hillary's camp announce she was planning to lose Mass? (I don't think so.)
Did Bernie's camp actually say they expected to win? (I don't think so - but I may have missed it, and I'm open to a quote saying they expected a win)
Who did the polls show as winning? I know this was Hillary all around.

What is your standard for who you expect to win? Do you listen exclusively Bernie's camp, or do you also weight (perhaps more heavily) what Hillary's camp says or what the polls predict?

I know Hillary dramatically underperformed the recent polls I saw here for MA.

I strongly suspect she underperformed her own campaign's expectations, and clearly she underperformed what her supporters here were predicting.

I think you're picking your baseline to create the narrative you want to tell.

[Agschmid]

110. Bernie said he expected to win Mass.

And again...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-transcript-chris-christie-ted-cruz-bernie-sanders/story?id=37242166

SANDERS: We got decimated, George. We got decimated. The only positive thing for us is we won the actually -- the 29 years of age and younger vote. And that was good. But we got killed.

But I'm in Minnesota now. We think we're going to do very well in Minnesota on Super Tuesday, Colorado we're going to do well, Oklahoma we're going to do well. I think we're going to win in Massachusetts. And I believe we're going to win in Vermont. And we're going to do better than people think in other states.

George, we began this campaign, as you know, at 3 percent in the polls, 60 or 70 points behind Secretary Clinton. We have come a very long way. Our message about a rigged economy -- rich get richer, everyone else gets poorer -- is resonating.

So yes even Bernie underperformed what Bernie was projecting.

[noamnety]

111. Alright, I'll grant you one of the three points.

The other two stand - why are you excluding all the polls and hillary's campaign when determining whether either candidate over or underperformed?

[Agschmid]

112. I'm not excluding the polls...

Bernie was ahead in the polls until South Carolina, then things shifted. It's clear Mass was in flux right through Election Day, and all the polls show that.

[sgmcenroe]

78. Winning the south - who cares

HRC can run the south but come November it will go Republican. It is the GOP heartland and is as red as the red in the rebel flag they love so much. About the only south state up for grabs would be Florida. This election is far from over. Feel the Bern - he is only getting started.

[LexVegas]

2. Virginia really is a southern state. nt

[DCBob]

17. Parts of it are for sure, but NoVA is not.

And NoVA dominates in elections.

[LexVegas]

28. I was in NoVA this past weekend. Its Southern too. nt

[DCBob]

30. Why??

Its an urban affluent metropolitan area loaded with professionals who are mostly not from Virginia originally.

[LexVegas]

40. The majority of people in NoVA are from the South, although not necessarily born in Virginia.

[DCBob]

44. Well I live here in DC metro area and I have lived in the south.

I can tell you its vastly different.

[LexVegas]

48. I was born and raised in Virginia. I have many friends and family in NoVA.

I have a child that is going to be going to college there in the Fall. My sister attended George Mason. Northern Virginia is more diverse than many areas of Virginia, but Virginia is a Southern state, always will be. We will have to agree to disagree.

[DCBob]

51. Have you ever lived in the deep south?

I lived in Mississippi and Arkansas for nearly 10 years. The culture and people there are nothing like NoVA or Virginia for that matter.

[LexVegas]

52. I lived in Arkansas for several years. I used to laugh at people that claimed it was the South. nt

[DCBob]

56. Interesting we have such differing views.

[metroins]

63. I grew up in MD

And live in Texas.

NoVa would not be considered south to me in the slightest.

[DCBob]

66. Yeah, that's how I feel too.

Not sure how anyone would see that differently who has actually lived in both places.

[auntpurl]

65. I've lived in NOVA, and I've lived in Huntsville, Alabama.

They literally might as well be on different planets.

[DCBob]

67. LOL.. agreed.

[LexVegas]

72. I live in SW Virginia now and it is certainly different than NoVA.

What does that have to do with whether NoVA is "Southern" or not?

[auntpurl]

74. I think the question was more is Virginia southern

For me, (as someone from the Northeast, so an outsider), Virginia didn't feel anything like Alabama.

[LexVegas]

75. I wouldn't mistake being more civilized with being less "Southern". nt

[auntpurl]

76. Not at all.

There is a whole range of things that were different. Food, culture, politics, economy, attitudes towards all sorts of things. Some good, some bad. Just different.

[LexVegas]

77. Understood. nt

[6chars]

55. A lot has to do with AA population

There is a pretty strong correlation between Clinton margin of victory (or defeat) and AA percentage in the state.

[Adrahil]

3. Northern Virginia (DC 'burbs) have really changed the state...

Make no mistake... get outta No.Va, and it is a very southern state. But No.Va really pulls the state away from that.

Yeah, a win for Hillary there is a big deal. But MA.... that's an even bigger deal.

[auntpurl]

4. I disagree

Although I'm extremely pleased about both wins!

Mass is likely to go blue no matter what in November. We need a candidate who can inspire out voters in VA, PA, OH, FL to win the general. Virginia is the one that made me feel safer last night.

[Adrahil]

13. I wasn't talking about the generals, really....

I agree that MA will be blue in Nov. and VA is more at risk. I do hope that AA voters turn out big for her in VA in Nov.

I was talking more about Hillary to win in a state that demographically is in Bernie's top 10.

[Sancho]

14. Hillary can win Florida.

She is popular with immigrants, PR transplants, and women. Hillary would beat Trump with independents here.

Even retired GOPers would prefer Hillary to Trump.

Floridians have multimillions in Wall Street, they don't want to tear it down. More than 25% in Fl were born outside the US. They don't go for Trump's stupid rhetoric. There is a fairly large muslim population here too. If Trump is the nominee, Hillary should beat him. Trump is another Rick Scott, and he is pretty unpopular here.

I think Hillary will beat any of the leading GOPers in FL, with the only serious competition from Rubio.

[obamanut2012]

31. SOFL is solidly blue

And, Central Florida is becoming blue due to the population becoming more diverse.

The county I live in in FL literally has several times the population of Vermont, and most of those voters are solidly blue. They will vote D in November. The Republicans I know here are very afraid of Trump and won't vote for him. They will vote for Rubio.

[tymorial]

8. I have to disagree

How is a democrat winning a primary in a forgone conclusion blue state indicative of something other than the already guaranteed electoral votes in November?

[vdogg]

57. First the meme was

Red states don't matter. Now the meme is blue states don't matter? Or maybe, as I suspect, you guys are really trying to say that states that Hillary won don't matter.

[tymorial]

61. I thought the OP was referring to the general

not the primaries. When it comes to the general, it doesn't matter that Hillary won Massachusetts because MA would go blue regardless of who won. For the rest of the states, a Massachusetts win could produce momentum unless people actually look at the numbers. She didn't win Massachusetts by a significant margin.

[Nanjeanne]

5. Clinton won MA by 15+% over Obama in 2008. 2016 against Sanders is a

big comedown. Not a huge win. She should have creamed him here. Not won by 1%. The difference in delegates is +2 for Clinton.

Great that she won Virginia. But MA? A win is a win I guess. But not much of a win to be gloating IMHO.

[DCBob]

9. Bernie needed to win MA and win big to keep his hopes alive.

He has no road to victory now.

[Nanjeanne]

12. If you say so.

[JaneyVee]

16. Massachusetts is a state tailor made for Bernie.

That was a big loss for Bernie.

[Nanjeanne]

21. Tailor made for Sanders? But not tailor made for Clinton? Even after

Winning it in 2008 by 15+% points over Barack Obama?

It's a 2 delegate 1% loss for Sanders. Hillary should have beaten him by as much as she beat Obama. Why not? Did the state demographics change from 2008?

[JaneyVee]

23. There were 8 Democrats running in 2008 in MA primary.

Not to mention it borders Bernie's home state and NH where she got shellacked. And it is a state with the 3rd highest share of white liberals and filled with colleges.

[Nanjeanne]

38. Oh right. NY is so far from MA. But so close

To VT. And the other "candidates" won less than 3% of the vote together. You know facts are easy to research and much more interesting than spin.

But if it makes you feel better to believe that the ex Senator from NY is far from MA and that her previous campaigning and winning the state (and being First Lady) amounts to being virtually unknown in MA - then by all means hold that fantasy close to you.

[JaneyVee]

41. Please proceed.

[RoccoR5955]

91. You do know that the part of the state that is closest to NY

voted more for Bernie. Clinton's support was mostly around the Boston area.
If this holds true, than NY could go Bernie's way BIG, because I know that there is a ton of support for him in NYC. I see it all the time.

[obamanut2012]

33. Bernie is a NE Senator

NE tends to vote for its own.

[Nanjeanne]

42. Oh I see. NY senator doesn't count because she

Is ex Senator. Got it.

[obamanut2012]

53. Well, I didn't say that

I said Bernie is a NE Senator, and New Englanders tend to vote for their own. HRC isn't currently an elected official anywhere in New England.

Good lord.

[Nanjeanne]

70. Oh well. If MA voters tend to vote for NE people that explains everything.

Good grief. How could I have been so dumb as to not realize that. I mean I'm a NE person. Thanks for those facts. I guess that explains everything!

[RoccoR5955]

93. She was a lousy senator

for anyone but the Wall St. crowd, and the ultra rich in Westchester an the like.
For regular folks, she did less than nothing.

[Thinkingabout]

6. Great wins, all adding delegates.

[stonecutter357]

10. K&R!

[Octafish]

19. Not really. ''Name Recognition.''

First Lady. Senator. Presidential Candidate 2008. Secretary of State. Presidential Candidate 2016.

vs.

Senator Socialist.

We need more information. Like Virginia being more like open-carry Texas.

[DCBob]

20. Who's fault is that??

[Octafish]

26. Pay-to-Play Media coupled with corrupt campaign coverage.

Those who got money, got speech.

Those without money: too bad, so sad. No speech for you.

And those without money who want broadcasters and publishers with money to share what riches they enjoy through progressive tax policy and regulation such as the Fairness Doctrine: Get the hell out of here!

Not arguing with you, DCBob. Just stating my side. Congratulations to Ms. Clinton on her victory in Massachusetts!

[DCBob]

81. Bernie had plenty of money and exposure.

His message simply doesn't connect with the majority of Democrats... its that simple.. no arguing needed.

[LibDemAlways]

92. That is a ridiculous statement. Bernie's message speaks

directly to traditional Democratic party values. Looking out for the interests of ordinary people is what it boils down to -- giving everyone a fair shot. And millions have enthusiastically responded with their hard earned dollars and their time.

If you think that Bernie's message doesn't resonate with the "majority" of Democrats, then perhaps you, and they, are in the wrong party.

[DCBob]

96. Your statement is ridiculous and offensive

You have no right defining who are "real" Democrats and suggesting that we who support Hillary should leave the party.

on that.

[JaneyVee]

25. Bernie lives in bordering state and has been in govt longer than Hillary.

[Octafish]

29. I'm in Michigan. Most of my neighbors don't know who Kasich is.

He's the governor of Indiana.

[JaneyVee]

32. Ohio.

And the northeast is different. We have small states and are pretty tight knit. They even call NY, NJ, and CT the Tri-state area".

[Octafish]

35. Ohio. Indiana. Big difference.

Kasich and a ham sandwich, not so much.

[jillan]

39. Um, New York is also a bordering state. This talking point about Vermont has got to stop.

[jillan]

22. She won Mass by 1.7%. Not a huge win.

[DCBob]

24. Bernie needed MA alot more than Hillary needed it.

His path to victory is essentially gone if Hillary can win a state like MA.

[jillan]

37. First of all, Hillary needed it more than Bernie. Hillary needed to prove she can win in liberal

states. Bernie doesn't.

Bernie needed to win OK to show he can win in a state that was not a liberal state.

And a 1.7% is not a decisive win. The delegates will most likely be spilt 50/50.

[DCBob]

43. I think Bernie's only path to victory is to win most of the midwest and rust belt states.

That was always in doubt but now its virtually certain he won't with Hillary's big wins in MA and VA.

[jillan]

45. 1.7% was not a big win. Splitting the delegates 50/50 is not a big win. But if you need to

keep telling yourself that, go right ahead.

[DCBob]

46. She doesn't need the delegates... she's already leading by a substantial margin.

If Bernie cant win in a state like MA where is he going to win?

[FailureToCommunicate]

80. Bernie lost by only 1.4 %... fewer than 17,000 votes out of 120 million. They are just finishing

the count. Saugus and Salem (majority Bernie) JUST finished reporting at 11:a.m.

Not that it helps a lot but it helps. Certainly not a "huge" win in a state she carried over Obama by 15%.

[obamanut2012]

27. Virginia is considered a Mid-Atlantic state

And was purple for a long time, and is no solidly light blue imo. NOVA, Hampton Roads, Charlottesville, Richmond, and a few other areas range from blue to deep blue, and they hold most of Virginia's population. Like NC and FL, gerrymandering has messed up Congressional elections over the years.

So yes, a very nice win for Hillary!

I also agree that MA was an essential for Bernie to show he COULD win, no matter what the margin was.

[DCBob]

34. The Mid-Atlantic states for those who dont know..

[obamanut2012]

49. I should have posted that

Yes!

[yardwork]

50. Texas as well.

[DCBob]

59. Yes, I should have included Texas.

Her big win there suggests she will do well in the other western and southwestern states and probably California.

[jeff47]

58. +2 delegates is a huge win? (nt)

[DCBob]

60. Did you read my explanation?

Its not about winning delegates in MA.

[jeff47]

62. Yes. Clinton's continued weakness outside the south is a problem.

You managed to forget her margin in 2008 was much larger, and every politician in MA except Warren endorsed her.

You keep reminding people that Sanders is no Obama....yet Clinton did far better against Obama in MA, even with Ted Kennedy endorsing Obama. This time all the Kennedys endorsed Clinton.

Your attempt to attach symbolism is leaving out a lot of history.

[DCBob]

64. She is clearly not as strong outside the south.

But with her wins in MA and VA she will likely do well enough outside the south to block Bernie from making any significant gains.

[Hiraeth]

79. Sorry, Virginia is the south. Honestly, Pennysylvania is more like Georgia than you realize.

[DCBob]

82. Then Bernie is in serious trouble if a state like PA is like GA.

A blowout similar to GA there and other neighboring rust belt and mid-Atlantic states will surely be the end for Senator Sanders.

[Hiraeth]

84. your concern is duly noted.

[auntpurl]

105. As a Pennsylvania native...

I feel optimistic that Hillary will beat Bernie there. It's got a very strange, diverse demographic. Northeast liberal urban populations in Philly and (coming in recent years) Pittsburgh. Might as well be Kentucky in much of the rest of the state. I think Hillary will appeal to hard-core Dems and minorities in urban areas, and moderates in the rural areas.

[DCBob]

106. She's been polling well there.

I predict another big win there for Hillary.

[gordianot]

83. They were a greater win for Wall Street.

[RoccoR5955]

85. Mass was a win by only a few points

The number of delegates is roughly the same.
Stop leaving steaming piles of bovine fecal matter around here. They really stink!

[DCBob]

86. Your comment smells worse.

Since you didn't even read my explanation which has nothing to do with the margin of victory in MA.

[RoccoR5955]

87. Your title says it was huge

If you meant differently, you should have put it in your stinky title.

[DCBob]

88. Helps to read to avoid posting odoriferous comments.

[RoccoR5955]

90. I read it.

Your comment saying that Bernie cannot possibly win the nomination is even more unsavory. Especially with Clinton only leading by a 3:2 margin and there being 70% of the states left.
By implying that Sanders supporters should not support him, Clinton is inevitable, is most offensive.

[DCBob]

94. I dont think Sanders or his supporters should give up.

I just think its hopeless given what happened last night.

This is a discussion board and I am posting my opinion of where I think this race stands. I think that's allowed here.

[RoccoR5955]

108. Ah, you are just a pessimist.

I see.

[AlbertCat]

95. Virginia, although historically is considered a southern state, its really not at all.

Never ever been there I see.

I love the "historically is considered a southern state" part. Richmond, in case you don't know, was the CAPITAL of the Confederacy.

Geez... I hope all Hillary supporters are not this clueless!

[DCBob]

98. I live just across the boarder from NoVA.

Any idiot knows Richmond was the capital of confederacy... so what? Northern Virginia is what dominates the elections here and NoVA is nothing like anything in the deep south. I guess you've never been there.

[AlbertCat]

101. Northern VA is not all that votes.

The vast majority of VA is very very Southern.

I lived there for years. Those who never leave the extended bubble of the DC area have not seen VA.

[DCBob]

102. NoVA dominates elections here.. that's why its a blue state now.

[OkSustainAg]

99. What ?

Mass. was a virtual tie. Bernie gets as many regular delegates. Bernie does better in blue states. I'm glad we are going into blue states now.

[DCBob]

100. Did you read my explanation?

It has nothing to do with the margin of victory in MA.

[mhatrw]

104. Yes if she pulls out all the Democratic machine political stops, she can eke out a tie

against a corporate media ignored/despised "socialist" in some non-Southern states.

She also proved she can win big in a non-Southern state if you claim a Southern state is a non-Southern state.

It's sad what the Democratic party reduced itself to when it agreed to do everything in its power to coronate her so Republicans could secure all three branches of the federal government for the foreseeable future.

Even Marion Barry would have been a better candidate. At least he does not face a probable future indictment during the upcoming general election.