Can we just be honest about why Hillary even got to be SOS...

[tk2kewl]

It was her turn.

And she was horrible at it.




Please feel free to post supporting or contradicting argument.

[Agschmid]

1. Unrec.

[tk2kewl]

41. lot's of substantive discussion since you posted...

you should come back an have a look

[Agschmid]

44. ... I'm sticking with my first impression.

[tk2kewl]

51. don't let the facts get in the way

[Agschmid]

108. "Facts"...

Got it.

[tk2kewl]

113. please feel free to post a Clinton foreign policy accomplishment we can all be proud of

this thread has covered Iraq, Libya, Honduras, and Kagan as examples of Hillary's lousy foreign policy creds and decisions. where is the good she has done in this arena?

[PatrynXX]

130. for some reason if we critique Hillary

often it's a ban or a simple word Unreq smh WHY!!! Prove me wrong. wtf is so hard with proving people wrong? Ignroing this your just proving them right. smh As it is because of her supporters I definately will be writing in the only Liberal candidate running this year. people can blame Ralph Nader all they want but 1. Florida's vote was tainted 2. Ross Perot gave us Bill Clinton and thus Hillary. So Not sure how to look at Ralph anymore.

[notadmblnd]

227. You will never get an answer to that from a Hillary supporter

I asked months ago.

[vdogg]

89. Just as substantive as the OP

[tk2kewl]

93. really...

many links and videos back up the case that she was a horrible SOS. is there a foreign policy achievement of hers that you would like to point to that makes a different case?

[SCantiGOP]

134. That's why I don't unrec

Just hit "trash this thread." Makes life much easier.

[themaguffin]

194. It's more substance than in your original comment. Next.

[tk2kewl]

195. indeed

[themaguffin]

200. but

of course substance could be added to the original comment, but it's not.


Next.

[brooklynite]

2. Or, since you couldn't be troubled to offer any support for YOUR "argument", let's just ignore this.

[Broward]

3. She was horrible at it. Kissinger may beg to differ though.

[pangaia]

72. Well, he would.

[jwirr]

135. And the MIC likes eternal war.

[BreakfastClub]

244. "Nearly every foreign policy victory of President Obama’s second term has Secretary Clinton’s

fingerprints on it" -Harry Reid, Senate Democratic leader.

[Buzz Clik]

4. LOL! Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[tk2kewl]

42. exactly what is wrong with the portrayal of Clinton as a good foreign policy choice

nothing meaningful ever gets discussed:

http://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-the-foreign-policy-realist-of-2016/

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/02/24/sanders-the-realist-hillary-the-neocon/

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/a-2016-foreign-policy-report-card/

[Buzz Clik]

53. Three opinion pieces, all "meaningful"?

The Nation is plumping for a guy with zero foreign policy experience and calls HRC a neocon.

Consortium runs another opinion piece with the same title.

And, the coup de gras, you put up an extreme rightwing opinion giving HRC low grades.

And you ask what is wrong with that?

Why don't you ask the American Conservative writers what they think of your avatar? Or, is your avatar merely a smoke screen?

[tk2kewl]

71. do you really have enough bullets to shoot all the messengers?

#47 http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1402650

why not offer a counter argument?

And when it comes to my avatar... Please feel free to start an OP on how Hillary will be a good steward of the environment - I will be happy to discuss.


do you have a bullet for Naomi Klein too?

[Buzz Clik]

105. Tell Naomi that "Hillary" has two of the letter l.

Anyone who quotes rightwing electronic toilet paper to support their opinion is in no position to defend their enviro-cred.

Sorry, dude.

[Tommy2Tone]

145. It will be over for them shortly.

Pretty sure they will support Trump next

[Marr]

184. That's the kind of in-depth rebuttal for which Hillary's supporters have become famous.

Yes, I must concede your point. 'Hillary' does, in fact, have two l's.

[Buzz Clik]

186. You want an in-depth rebuttal of a tweet?

What a joke. If your source of news is tweets from Naomi Klein, I can see the problem here.

[Marr]

188. I was thinking more along the lines of the thread's topic.

You could list some foreign policy successes she's had. Show that she was competent enough in the job to warrant it's citation as a credential.

Still, if you can ignore Kagan's endorsement of Hillary, I think I can imagine what a foreign policy success must look like to you.

[Buzz Clik]

189. I took issue with a specific comment, and I responded.

You don't like it? meh.

[Marr]

191. So you have nothing on the thread's topic then. Got it.

Have a nice day.

[tk2kewl]

193. that poster will go on my hide list after this thread dies

but until then i'm enjoying the thrashing

[Buzz Clik]

237. Why wait?

[tk2kewl]

238. k

[Buzz Clik]

240. bye bye!

[CoffeeCat]

83. Are you seriously contesting that Hillary Clinton is a neocon?

Robert Kagan, the founder of the neocon movement, endorsed Hillary last week.

That's right, Kagan endorsed HRC over all of the Republicans.

She's their go-to gal for all things murdery and war-like.

I mean...Kagan! He founded PNAC with Bill Kristol.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/25/1491609/-Robert-Kagan-Republican-Neocon-PNAC-co-founder-endorses-Clinton

Anyone who doesn't know that Hillary Clinton is a neocon/warmonger/war hawk is completely ignorant or deflecting.

[tk2kewl]

86. the poster is not contesting anything...

just shooting every messenger that would question the queen. actually disparaging me b/c of my avatar... at least it seems they knew what the avatar is, so i give em credit for that

[CoffeeCat]

102. But the founder of the neocon movement endorsed Hillary last week

I am hoping to hear the poster's thoughts about that.

I'm so totally ready to listen, and very anxious to hear this poster share their thoughts about the Godfather of the neocons endorsing HRC.

[tk2kewl]

103. prediction:

you wont hear a peep

[GoneOffShore]

100. I'm predicting crickets on this one.

HRC, Kagan and Kissinger. The perfect threesome

[CoffeeCat]

106. I mean...my blood curdles when I think about the neocon founder endorsing Hillary

So, I'm very anxious to hear this poster (or any Hillary supporter, for that matter) tell us all why this endorsement is a positive thing for Hillary and for our country.

I mean, that's a big endorsement! The founder of the entire warmongering movement, Robert Kagan--picked Hillary over all of the Republicans.

DU has always been united against PNAC and the neocons. After all, these are the same psychotic bastards who planned the Iraq war--even before it happened.

Other famous neocons: Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Richard Armitage, Bill Kristol.

These guys are like the mafia of illegal and lie-based wars!

And apparently, the leader of their crazed parade of murder is gunning for Hillary.

I'd love to hear more about how this sits with her supporters. So ready to listen.

[GoneOffShore]

138. And HRC treats Kagan's endorsement in the same way Drumpf has treated David Duke's.

"I'll have to do more research." Obviously not a direct quote, but I can just hear her.

HRC - Never Met A MIC That She Hasn't Liked.
Could be her campaign slogan.

[CoffeeCat]

143. But Hillary Clinton's hand-picked Kagan as one of her advisers while she was Secretary of State

Hillary Clinton could have picked anyone to advise her on Middle East foreign policy. She picked Kagan.

Are you saying that Hillary doesn't like Kagan?

Are you saying that she rejects his warmongering?

[GoneOffShore]

150. Not at all. She's never met a war monger she hasn't liked.

[Hydra]

243. The dirty secret of DU is that apparently we were not all united in principles

Our unity against the Republican party was apparently team-based for more than a few of us.

I wondered at the time- there were many people indirectly supporting the Bush Admin by casting doubt on their crimes and excusing the Dems who refused to go after them for it.

Apparently it's only situationally bad to some people.

[Gwhittey]

107. Neolib yes neocon kinda

In that she sure does seem to like wars. I mean Iraq war she wanted but we can giver her a pass for being fooled like most of country, well except Sanders he saw lies for what they where. She pushed for Military action in Libya swaying Obama who as he said before we acted he was 51-49 against military action. She was pushing for more military action towards Syira. Just too name two. So yes she is a neocon she just forgot to go to GOP when the big exit happened back in the 80s.

edit : Ok after reading more info put out in this thread I stand corrected. I was wrong in saying Kinda to neocon, she is full blown one that Stayed because she was a women and she knew a women in GOP not a good idea. So she has been holding her nose for last 16 years so she could get back into the White House.

[CoffeeCat]

117. OH, there's so much more! So, so much more!

The reason that Europe is bursting with refugees, is because of what Hillary did in Libya. It's a failed state. It's a vacuum for terrorism and an ISIS stronghold now.

Libya was Hillary's pet project.

Did you know that Robert Kagan (yes, the same warmonger who endorsed Hillary) was also one of Hillary's Middle East advisers while she was Secretary of State? Isn't she adorable?

Did you also know that the neocons laid out their plans for dominating and controlling the Middle East--by using military force--way back in 1996? The countries that they said they wanted to target are: IRAQ, IRAN, SYRIA AND LIBYA.

They laid it all out in their manifesto, "Rebuilding America's Defenses."

Hillary voted for the Iraq war and heavily cheerleaded it on the Senate floor--and she KNEW about their plan. She also saber rattled for going to war with Iran when Bush was President. She is for a no-fly zone in Syria--which is just a set up to create boundaries that Syria will break so they can justify more war.

And Libya! We haven't even touched on the horrors of that whole thing. There's just so much to discuss.

Again. I'm here to listen. I'd love to know how Hillary supporters justify the Kagan endorsement and Hillary's long and very impressive neocon pedigree. She has certainly earned their trust, respect and their Presidential endorsement.

Looking forward to a very interesting discussion when the Hillary supporters weigh in on this.

[Buzz Clik]

110. If you're asking if I'm unconvinced that the DU Sanders crowd thinks HRC is a neocon...

... No. I'm fully convinced.

If you're asking if I think that contention is totally laughable, yeah. Belly laugh.

"go-to gal go-to gal for all things murdery and war-like."

[Loki]

119. Flop sweat desperation

Name calling, innuendo, smears. Who do you think they learned it from? Like Bill Ayers was Obamas best friend kinda crap. If they wanted to talk really about the issues they would. Someone called me "Bro". Couldn't even bother to read my profile and I've been here since 2001. No, not gonna take their shit anymore

[CoffeeCat]

128. I'd like to know how you feel about Hillary being endorsed by Kagan, the neocon founder?

You guys can obfuscate all you want. You can get defensive. You can whine.

The bottom line is--you won't even discuss that the founder of the neocon movement endorsed Hillary for President.

You offer nothing of substance.

But I'll wait. I'm listening and ready to hear about why it's totally cool that the grandfather of the neocon war movement has thrown his faith and trust in Hillary Clinton.

He could have picked a Republican. But Kagan didn't. He chose Hillary.

I'm interested in your thoughts.

[Loki]

177. Because even with the horiffic possibility of

A possible Trump presidency The slightly insane neocons are seeing the light. Voting for and supporting a Democrat is much preferable to a suicide by a thousand cuts.

[CoffeeCat]

197. But the neocons were in Hillary's camp way before Trump arrived on the scene

Hillary picked Kagan to be her foreign-policy adviser in 2009.

They've been chummy pals--working on foreign-policy together for many, many years.

Sure, the neocons don't like Trump. He has been outspoken on the Iraq War and said that Bush should have been impeached for it.

[Loki]

206. Do you actually think that by dismissing every person that might disagree

with your political ideology would never have any insight to offer? That is a political purity test that I would never want to subscribe to. Look to history and you'll find many people took the opportunity of listening to those whose ideology was very different. FDR for one. Most of Lincoln's cabinet hated him, but he valued their ideas and expertise. You are using the same straw man comparison they used on Obama and Bill Ayers. It's disingenuous, we all have listened to a wide variety of people and learned something.

[Buzz Clik]

132. Your points are well taken and dead on. Unfortunately, we're outnumber by about 7-1 right now.

One tiny perceived slight, and you get launched by a jury of flop-sweaters with conjured outrage.

We're whizzing in the wind, I'm afraid.

Fortunately, DU represents absolutely no aspect of reality. (But it's fun to drag a stick across the bars of the cage)

[CoffeeCat]

164. Clearly, you've been presented with facts. I've spent a great deal of time and effort

posting articles and posting facts about Kagan, the neocons and Hillary's storied history with him.

What is it with you?

Are you in denial?

Or do you just not care?

Or are you just providing cover for HRC?

Help me to understand.

You've heard the facts. You know the truth now. There's no excuse.

So, how do you rationalize and justify knowing the truth and turning away from it?

I am sincere with my questions.

[Buzz Clik]

166. Your "facts" are laced with opinion. So are mine. We've come to different conclusions.

So what?

[CoffeeCat]

171. I am not stating opinion. I've laid out facts.

I am stating:

1.) Who they neocons are (that is not in dispute). Everyone knows what they are. They laid it out in their plan:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

2.) Who Robert Kagan is. He's the founder of PNAC and the neocon movement. That is a fact. Not opinion.

3.) That Kagan has a storied, close relationship with Hillary.
---He worked as an adviser to Hillary--she hand picked him to advise her on Middle East policy.
---He has routinely praised and supported Hillary's foreign-policy actions (see NY Times article)

4.) That Hillary, while SOS intervened in Libya, ousted their leader and destabilized the country--which was highly praised by Kagan and the neocons.

4.) That Kagan endorsed Hillary for President.

None of that is opinion. That is all fact.

[Buzz Clik]

178. Kagan did NOT endorse Hillary for president.

US policy in the Middle East has not changed in decades, and it doesn't matter because nothing works over there.

Look, I don't care. You take whatever path you want. I also recognize that I cannot do anything (other than chuckle) when the DU Sanders fan club calls HRC a rape enabler, murderer, thief, liar, and compare her to Nixon.

Rest assured that, whoever you support or don't support, I will not come after you with the same level of insult and innuendo with which the Sanders crowd has drenched me.

[CoffeeCat]

123. Do you have any comment on Robert Kagan endorsing Hillary?

How do you feel about the founder of the neocon movement endorsing Hillary for President?

[Buzz Clik]

133. Ok. I'll bite. Who is that?

[CoffeeCat]

141. Robert Kagan founded PNAC--he hatched the neocon, war movement.

Robert Kagan founded PNAC, which became known as the neocon movement.

Together with Bill Kristol, Kagan hatched a plan to dominate the Middle East by military intervention in the region.

The neocons believe that the U.S. has a right and a duty to control the Middle East in order for the United States to remain a Superpower.

They are interested in the region because of its rich oil reserves and also because of the benefits of controlling the geography.

Kagan co-authored "Rebuilding America's Defenses" which was essentially their entire plan for invading, plundering, and dominating the Middle East through war.

They laid out the countries that they wanted to dominate: IRAQ, IRAN, SYRIA AND LIBYA. The plan was originally written in 1996. Under the direction of Kagan, the neocons asked then-President Bill Clinton for a war with Iraq in a 1998 letter. The letter was signed by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Kagan, Bolton and others. Clinton said no. So, Kagan and the neocons had to wait until Bush attained power. Then, those same neocons launched the Iraq war (using 9/11 to justify it).

So, it's pretty clear. These are the worst sociopaths in modern history. They see war as a device to plunder resources and enrich the United States. War for profit. They don't care who they murder. They don't care how many innocent men, women and children die. They don't care if they lie to the American people to get these wars. They want these countries.
They want to make money for their corporate friends (like Boeing, Lockheed and Halliburton) who make billions from these wars.

Robert Kagan hatched this entire plan. He's the CEO of Middle East warmongering. He was one of Hillary Clinton's advisers while she was SOS. And Kagan endorsed Hillary for President last week.

With me so far?

[Buzz Clik]

142. Hm. So, Kagan says he'd be forced to vote for Hillary if Trump is the nominee.

That's your concept of an endorsement?

Okaaaaay.

[CoffeeCat]

155. Kagan has praised Hillary's foreign policy stances

on many occasions. It's not just the Presidential endorsement.

Kagan and Hillary go way back.

Kagan has stated that he supports Hillary Clinton's foreign-policy stances and her policies. Here's a quote from a 2014 New York Times article (link at bottom) in which Kagan praises Clinton. He's also had issues with Obama's lack of interventionism and unwillingness to go to war. But Hillary, he likes approves.

“I feel comfortable with her on foreign policy,” Mr. Kagan said, adding that the next step after Mr. Obama’s more realist approach “could theoretically be whatever Hillary brings to the table” if elected president. “If she pursues a policy which we think she will pursue,” he added, “it’s something that might have been called neocon, but clearly her supporters are not going to call it that; they are going to call it something else.”

Furthermore, Kagan was one of her most trusted foreign-policy advisers while she was SOS.

It didn't just start last week with the endorsement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/16/us/politics/historians-critique-of-obama-foreign-policy-is-brought-alive-by-events-in-iraq.html?_r=0

[Buzz Clik]

163. Well, Kagan and I agree on one thing and disagree on another:

I agree with him that I like her foreign policy.

I disagree that it amounts to the execution of the neocon plans we saw under Bush. There are enormous and important differences.

[CoffeeCat]

170. It's clear that Hillary is helping the neocons

and that her actions on Libya are a major, central piece of their plan.

Again, they laid it out in "Rebuilding America's Defenses."

They specifically mentioned that they needed and wanted Libya.

Hillary brought Kagan into the government--when she hired him as a foreign-policy adviser. He's the founder of the neocon movement. She gave them one of the counties that they wanted.

How much more proof do you need?

You can read Kagan's Bible, "Rebuilding America's Defenses" and look at what Hillary did in Libya--while Kagan was serving as her adviser--and literally understand that she made their dreams come true.

Here's the neocon plan: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Warning. It's a heavy read. It's sick. And it's very distressing that their so close to attaining the crown jewel in their sick plan--Iran. I'd take some anti-nausea medication before reading.

[polly7]

154. When I think of all the millions of lives destroyed by PNAC it turns my stomach.

They should be frogmarched to The Hague for every atrocity, war-crime and death of innocents they absolutely pushed for.

[CoffeeCat]

162. Yes, there is absolutely no way to justify this, but I am hoping as more learn

about PNAC/neocons/Robert Kagan and what they've done---and how these psychos were not only henchmen in her administration--but they've also endorsed her for President--that people may start to think about this.

Plenty of us who all ready know the truth.

But there are many who do not. The neocons count on people thinking that it's just too complicated.

But, most people who learn and are made aware--can never go back.

The neocon policies have murdered more than a million people in the Middle East. Long ago, they said they wanted Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon. They documented their wish list of countries in 1996.

They had trouble in the beginning, because Democrats were not on board. They asked Bill Clinton for war when he was President. Bill Clinton said no.

Now, we've got Hillary hiring their founder Kagan has one of her foreign-policy advisers. And now, we've got Hillary giving them Libya--as she spearheaded the plan to oust Gaddafi and gut that country. That's what the neocons do. They destabilize and weaken countries--in order to get in and dominate the area and plunder the resources.

And now Kagan has endorsed her for President.

This is not a person that Hillary is embarrassed by. She hand-picked him to be one of her advisers.

She helped them secure Libya.

[Loki]

210. Do you have any comment about Obama knowing Bill Ayers?

Same kind of BS question.

[CoffeeCat]

222. Obama didn't appoint Bill Ayers as his Middle East adviser when he became President

Now did he?

It's not a BS question. And you know it. Despite your games.

[Loki]

233. Really?

You didn't even try to answer the other one did you? What is this a Purity Ball? Where's my ring?

[notadmblnd]

228. Please show me where Senator Sanders has called Hillary a neocon.

That's right, you can't, because he hasn't.

[Buzz Clik]

229. I did not say that.

[notadmblnd]

230. Then how did this sentence get in your post?

The Nation is plumping for a guy with zero foreign policy experience and calls HRC a neocon.

[Buzz Clik]

235. The subject of the sentence is "The Nation," not "the guy"

[notadmblnd]

236. The Nation isn't calling Hillary Clinton a neocon either.

But it really doesn't matter. Whether you are claiming Sanders called her a neocon or the nation did- either way, you're not being honest.

[Buzz Clik]

239. The original title called Hillary a neocon.

I said that in the post immediately after the link was posted.

I'm being perfectly honest about this ... The Nation decided to back off. No idea why.

[noamnety]

5. If I had time this morning, I'd look this up.

but I think the best way to make or break your argument is to post up the backgrounds of the previous half dozen or so SOS's, and compare them to hers.

[AgerolanAmerican]

129. That's not a terribly difficult thing to do

Hillary Clinton brought us war in Libya and Syria, and wrecked Ukraine and Honduras. She also by her own bragging played a vital role in the crafting of TPP.

For one Secretary of State that's a lot of damage, in such a short period of time too.

It's hard to look at what Libya is like today and say she was a successful Secretary of State, unless your definition of success is the sowing of chaos and misery and suffering in the world.

[noamnety]

192. While I'm not disagreeing with your point

I meant more traditional resume experience, not political views or actions.

For example, Condi Rice:

Master's degree in political science
Interned in the state dept
Ph.D. in political science
Fellow at Stanford University's Arms Control and Disarmament Program
Professor of political science at Stanford
Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs

----------
This is not an endorsement of Rice in any way except to say that on paper she appears to have had appropriate work experience for the job.

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

242. HRC was given SOS to set her up for a 2nd run at POTUS...

...at the grave expense of American, and others, lives.

________
FAVORITISM, CRONYISM, AND NEPOTISM...

One of the most basic themes in ethics is fairness, stated this way by Artistotle: "Equals should be treated equally and unequals unequally." Favoritism, cronyism, and nepotism all interfere with fairness because they give undue advantage to someone who does not necessarily merit this treatment.

In the public sphere, favoritism, cronyism, and nepotism also undermine the common good. When someone is granted a position because of connections rather than because he or she has the best credentials and experience, the service that person renders to the public may be inferior.

https://www.scu.edu/ethics/focus-areas/government-ethics/resources/introduction/favoritism-cronyism-and-nepotism/

[AgerolanAmerican]

250. That Rice has such a resume

throws into doubt the validity of using a resume as criteria for candidate selection

If such a thoroughly evil person can look so good on paper, the paper probably shouldn't hold much weight.

[noamnety]

266. a valid point, and you and I might believe that

but I don't think all the Hillary supporters do - because they keep saying she's "the most experienced" for the job of president, based on similar criteria, now that she has been SOS.

[AgerolanAmerican]

271. Her "experience" as SOS was an unmitigated disaster

Blows my mind that anyone would consider that a positive for her.

What she did to Libya alone is disqualifying and that's only one of several major disasters created by her initiatives.

[FarPoint]

6. These kind of comments feel creepy.

Hurtful and just unnecessary ...adds nothing to the true mission of having a Democratic President elected for the 2016 Election. Invalid characterization of Hillary Clinton does not make us a strong political party voting base. We are assumed to be on the same page/ goal.

[JaneyVee]

11. Totally.

[madokie]

15. Said in your best

Hillary Clinton impersonation
Facts are facts and you or anyone else can't just make them up. deal with it but keep it to yourself.

[tk2kewl]

50. what i find creepy is padding one's resume with death. eom.

[Broward]

52. They are proud of her accomplishments.

[tk2kewl]

90. maybe... but i'm not sure

if they were why haven't we seen any posts touting her foreign policy accomplishments in this thread

mostly just shooting the messenger and every other form of deflection you can think of

[Broward]

99. I forgot the sarcasm tag.

[FarPoint]

144. I find this tone of discussion disheartening.

Actually, I struggle to even locate legitimate discussion or conversation.... All I read lately is many layers of one liners and trash talk... Not the Progressive way I know and love. One can only speculate as to why this is occurring.

[tk2kewl]

146. do you like the tone of Hillary's statements in the video...

more or less than the tone of this thread?

[FarPoint]

148. I decline to watch Fox News propaganda.

Many DU members follow such a standard.

[tk2kewl]

153. It's CBS

eom

[FarPoint]

156. Remains propaganda for fodder.

I decline....

[tk2kewl]

157. an interview of your candidate expressing her own thoughts is propaganda?

okey dokey

[FarPoint]

160. Like I said, no thank you.

[PonyUp]

263. Stay blind, my friend. nt

[FarPoint]

265. I'm voting for Hillary Clinton...

Hillary is a proven, life long Democrat who I trust.

[Lizzie Poppet]

64. "adds nothing to the true mission of having a Democratic President elected"

That ain't my mission.

My mission is getting a president who will make the progressive choice on critical issues elected. Their branding is completely irrelevant to me. I don't remotely trust Hillary Clinton to make progressive choices on matters where that choice runs contrary to the interests of her corporate backers. It's really as simple as that.

That may well mean I'm not on the same page as you are. Depends on how okay you'd be with whatever non-progressive choices a potential President Hillary Clinton would make...

[Paka]

111. +1

[oldandhappy]

176. +2

[Fairgo]

213. Branding is exactly the right word

[dana_b]

215. That's EXACTLY what I was going to say!!

great minds, and all that.

[Bubzer]

122. So, you're a party over purpose person then?

I don't agree with your notion of "the true mission of having a Democratic President elected".
The reason is very simple... the party is there to serve the people... not the other way around.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I am genuinely feeling bad for our opponents as they are reduced to this...

Not much I can do but offer them a heart felt DU

[A Simple Game]

33. So I can take this post as a "no I can't refute the claim" post.

Name one of her accomplishments as SOS, and no, visiting the most countries and flying the most miles don't count. Below is one for you to start your counter argument.

Here's one of my problems with Hillary's tenure as SOS, please refute. Hillary advocated for a Syrian no fly zone which could potentially put us into a direct conflict with Russia. Discuss.

[bvf]

104. It would seem so.

Look at the bright side: You got a nice smilie out of it.

[karynnj]

198. Both Condi and Kerry have flown more miles

Kerry has gone to fewer countries maybe because he keeps spending weeks in Geneva, Paris and Vienna negotiating things like getting the Iran deal, the Paris climate change deal, getting rid of CW in Syria and a very long shot UN Syria resolution and cessation of fighting.

Hillary, even as she praised whet Kerry is trying to do in Syria, blasted when he spoke of including Iran and Saudi Arabia in going forward -- which is what Kerry did and said it was important to getting the UN resolution. Few in the media pointed out that HRC's derisive comments about what Bernie said really are inconsistent to her trying to suggest that her position is that of Obama/Kerry. (As someone who has followed Kerry's efforts, Obama and Kerry have changed the US policy - even as neocons in the media try to distort their positions.)

[tularetom]

8. I never will understand that

I still think Obama was coerced.

A strange transformation occurred between his election and inauguration.

[tk2kewl]

23. This was pm'd to me by another DUer...

My own personal theory on this is that she threatened to refuse to fall in line to support Obama unless she got the position. This would have left the party divided through the General Election and Obama knew that was a risk he could not take. She was extremely bitter about winning the popular vote but losing the delegate race and she almost contested the nomination at the DNC. Afterward, Obama and Hillary met for an entire day, where I believe they hammered out the negotiation of her being SoS and she agreed to campaign for him in order to win the election in the fall. Obama probably thought he could do it without her, but if she subverted him, which was a risk, then he could have lost. I know many Obama supporters, including myself, saw it as a deal with the Devil and we were less than pleased by it.

I'd have responded in thread, but I'm on time-out due to alert stalkers.

[disillusioned73]

31. I completely aree with that sentiment..

I remember 2008 well..

[edgineered]

46. A fine example

sorry to hear about the time out, but you should know what happens around here when you confuse the facts with the truth!

[leveymg]

48. The deal was made during the June meeting in Georgetown when Obama slipped off the plane

Was supposed to go unnoticed. She released her delegates shortly thereafter. Nothing to see there.

He got the Nomination without a fight. She got the keys to Foggy Bottom and a card with a bunch of free flyer miles on it, along with a near carte blanche to regime change some Mideast countries.

[eggman67]

58. Not to mention

stocking up those Foundation funds

[leveymg]

59. Yes. Follow the tax-free money.

[BuelahWitch]

199. Yes, I remember it this way too n/t

[Bjornsdotter]

82. That was my take on it also.

I remember the discussions at the time and more than a few predicted Hillary would be given a high level position.

[TxGrandpa]

120. Agree!!!

[tularetom]

175. He held all the cards, but she got exactly what she wanted

It should have been our first insight into Obama-style negotiations.

Namely, give your opponent everything they ask for, and then when they ask for more, give them that too. IIRC, he also agreed to ask his supporters to help her retire the ginormous campaign debt she had built up.

[karynnj]

202. He recognized he did not have all the cards.- she represented the only threat of an in party

opponent. With all the incredible issues facing him, this was something that would have been difficult to deal with.

Having her as SoS meant that Obama had some lever over the Clintons. It also meant that in 2012, Bill Clinton was a surrogate for Obama - something that helped both Obama in 2012 and boosted Clinton's approval as well. It set up a win/win situation.

In addition, look at how Obama set up the SoS job. He assigned George Mitchell to deal with Israel, Holbrooke to deal with Afghanistan/Pakistan, Biden to deal with Iraq, and when needed in some tricky situations, he sent Senator Kerry. Hillary ran the State Department - and other than the mess that she created for them due to her email - was said to have done a good job. Additionally, she had near Presidential name recognition - so a visit by her to an ally was almost like a Presidential visit. The combination of having some of the leading foreign policy diplomats doing a lot of the diplomacy and Clinton using her star power where it worked and running the State Department. Again, a win win situation.

[Hydra]

245. These are good points, especially how the Clintons wound up coming to Obama's rescue at times

But on the whole, I think Obama is less than pleased to be anchored to the Clintons right now. The expected changing of the guard is now turning into a general riot, and big changes are in the wind.

[monmouth4]

9. Obama probably felt badly since he had beat her in the election so badly..LOL..n/t

en

[tk2kewl]

20. Or was his arm twisted?

[monmouth4]

22. No doubt in my mind. So many other better choices..n/t

[cprise]

87. ...when she ran on her husband's record, no less.

But now we're "sexist" if we hold her to the mistakes they made in the 90s.

Before he was forced to retreat on the subject of Hillary’s possible role in a Clinton administration on NBC’s Meet the Press, Bill told me, “If I get elected president, it will be an unprecedented partnership, far more than Franklin Roosevelt and Eleanor. They were two great people, but on different tracks. If I get elected, we’ll do things together like we always have.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/1992/05/hillary-clinton-first-lady-presidency

That's in addition to their "two for the price of one" campaign statements.

[Beacool]

256. He beat her so badly?

By what measurement? He was only ahead about 104 pledged delegates.

[livetohike]

10. This is disgusting. Doesn't merit an explanation . n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Instead of being outraged we should be magnanimous and forgiving.

This is a trying time for some people and we need to see their actions in that light.

[JohnnyLib2]

12. Preposterous

[sufrommich]

14. This constant need to degenerate Clinton's successes will be

remembered and written about as "How the BernieBros destroyed Bernie". Good luck with that.

[tk2kewl]

16. Simply attaining the position is not a meaningful success

Lydia, Honduras, and emails demonstrate her failure.

[sufrommich]

18. When did Hillary Clinton say "it's my turn" ?

I see that bandied about by a lot of her detractors,where is the quote?

[tk2kewl]

19. She didn't say so publicly. But do you think Obama really thought she was his best option?

Or was there pressure to appoint Hillary so she could round out her resume?

[sufrommich]

24. In other words,it's a fake quote designed to paint her

as a petulant child. She's been elected as a Senator and chosen as Obama's Secretary of State,but that all happened because a woman threw a temper tantrum,according to BernieBros. Keep digging that hole.

[tk2kewl]

32. read into it whatever makes you feel better... Do you think GWB would have been a good choice?

[cprise]

80. It gets even 'better'

[Bradical79]

115. No one thinks she literally said "it's my turn"

Is that what you think is happening? It's summing up a perceived attitude of entitlement.

[Gwhittey]

139. I was a Dem in upsate NY

And I did not really like seeing a AR person take the Senate set because DNC headed her the nomination. Her only primary opponent was some lawyer(Mark P. McMahon) who run because she was being given it at first. This was final straw with my liking the Clinton's Up until then I was a fan of Clinton that was starting to see the light of who they are.It started with Bill Clinton's Foreign Polices I did not like how he and Sec of Defense handled Operation Gothic Serpent(My ship was deployed off coast of Somalia in 1993 in support of ground troops after Battle of Mogadishu). So please do't try to use NY as a point of for her. You could run a mummified corpse as a (D) in NY and win. That is why she moved to NY for the sure win. Why not run in AR? That is what I feel Clinton is all about, playing the system to win no matter what.

[Renew Deal]

28. It's over for Bernie

And everyone knows it

[tk2kewl]

35. so more neocon foreign policy then, i guess

Sanders the ‘Realist’; Hillary the ‘Neocon’
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/02/24/sanders-the-realist-hillary-the-neocon/

Bernie Sanders, the Foreign-Policy Realist of 2016
http://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-the-foreign-policy-realist-of-2016/

[Loki]

212. They aren't Democrats, they never were.

n/t

[Hydra]

246. Oh noes! Big tent got smaller! Someone said we aren't here!

BTW, you picked some big shoes to fill with your choice in screen name. I hope you at least shoot for something more than yawns.

[Beacool]

258. It's called frustration.

Hillary will be the nominee and all they got left is mud flinging.

[bigwillq]

17. She was pretty bad at it.

Not sure I believe in the theory that it "was her turn" but I will agree that she was not a good SOS.

[FlatBaroque]

21. The Clinton's still controlled wide swaths of the Dem establishment after losing the primary

the SOS was her demand to throw their support behind him. They also has complete sway over treasury, as the entire Clinton team was reinstalled. I believe they demanded State and Treasury in exchange for their support. That is my theory.

[sufrommich]

25. Of course that's your theory.

[tk2kewl]

26. what's your theory?

[sufrommich]

30. My theory is that Obama respected her intelligence and

hired her,the same reason he picked another candidate who ran against him,Joe Biden. Of course,Biden never gets accused of throwing a childish tantrum to get the job. Hmmmm I wonder why that is?

[tk2kewl]

34. even though he campaigned against her on iraq?

Last edited Thu Mar 3, 2016, 09:58 AM - Edit history (1)

see #32
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1402540

[Renew Deal]

27. Because she is the single most respected and admired woman in the world?

How does it get to be ones turn to be SOS?

[tk2kewl]

37. "How does it get to be ones turn to be SOS?"

very good question...

so how would you rate the job she did?

[Agschmid]

43. ... "The American Conservative"

Aka...

This guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Pat_Buchanan

[tk2kewl]

47. how about the nation, salon, NY Times, truth-out, forbes, etc, etc...

it's actually a shame other outlets don't put together report cards like that one.

but do i really need to convince you that hillary is a neocon?

http://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-the-foreign-policy-realist-of-2016/

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/11/america_needs_a_bernie_doctrine_how_sanders_foreign_policy_weakness_could_become_a_game_changing_strength/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2014/08/18/with-democrat-hillary-clinton-likely-2016-neoconservative-standard-bearer-republicans-should-offer-a-real-alternative-such-as-rand-paul/#19a847475353

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/02/24/sanders-the-realist-hillary-the-neocon/

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/33589-why-rand-paul-called-hillary-clinton-a-neocon

or your own eyes and ears?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

136. This poster loves them some RW sources.

It's the only way to smear Clinton the way they do.

[Agschmid]

137. Yup.

And then they are shocked when people call them on it.

They've updated now that they've done a Google, which is the best we can hope for I guess.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

140. "You're just attacking the messenger".

That's the response every time. All the while ignoring the fact that the messenger is a lying sack of shit.

Confirmation bias is a motherfucker.

[Starry Messenger]

201. +1

[tk2kewl]

209. first paragraph from your link

"The political positions of Pat Buchanan can generally be described as paleoconservative, and many of his views, particularly his opposition to American imperialism and the managerial state, echo those of the Old Right Republicans of the first half of the 20th century."

I'll take it over PNAC neoconservativism. The point is that the neoconservativism has been seen as a disaster from a variety of points of view.

[Betty Karlson]

55. That woman is Angela Merkel, not Hillary Clinton.

[Renew Deal]

62. Link?

Do you respect and admire Merkel more than Hillary?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/187922/clinton-admired-woman-record-20th-time.aspx

[Betty Karlson]

67. That poll is Americans-only. We were talking worldwide, I believe?

I assure you that outside the USA, Clinton is not very much more popular than any other USA politician: detested by quite a few, admired by some, and the rest gives them a "mwah" or a "puh".

[SheenaR]

181. Yes

I do.

And her continued "victory" (if 13% is a victory in anything) speaks more to the lack of strong female voices out there.

Go up to someone today and say, "Not counting showbusiness, name a famous Woman in America"

You might get Michelle Obama named too. She wins by default. Let's take it worldwide and see where she stands.

[senz]

260. Of course.

She's ethical, competent, and hasn't an ounce of narcissism.

[Lizzie Poppet]

66. Not any more, it isn't.

Merkel is very unlikely to survive her next election.

[Betty Karlson]

70. It's rare for any European politician to win four elections in a row.

I don't see why we should discount Merkel's long tenure as Bundeskanzlerin and pretend it is all about the next election. Helmut Kohl lost an election too, in 1997. Doesn't mean his fifteen years as Bundeskanzler didn't mean anything, or that he wasn't admired throughout the world.

[Lizzie Poppet]

77. Just using that prediction to illustrate her drop in popularity.

Merkel is polling horribly right now...

[Betty Karlson]

85. But tellingly: the dissatisfaction comes from the right. eom

[Lizzie Poppet]

91. Not entirely.

Her unpopularity with the right has been a constant. She's losing ground everywhere of late, though.

[Betty Karlson]

131. I think you mean that her unpopularity with the left has been a constant

whereas her recent rise in unpopularity is coming from the right. Her esteem in the rest of Europe (Greece excepted) has not been diminished much, though.

[Armstead]

61. Is she really the most qualified in terms of foreign policy experience?

And, more to the point, is she really the person Obama would have preferred, in terms of foreign policy chops?

And, since you want to add gender. was she the most competent woman in line with Obama's own principles?

[Renew Deal]

69. Are we talking about now or 2008?

2008, no but neither was Kerry or most SOS. 2016: very clearly yes.

Obama raves about how great she is.

Competence is not lacking for Hillary. She gets in trouble other ways, but she is competent and knowledge. Obama has other women in high ranking foreign policy roles. They are Susan Rice and Samantha Power.

[Armstead]

76. Clinton had stronger credentials and interests in other areas

She could have addressed educational issues as Sec. of Edu, or community revitalization in HUD...any number of otehr positions. Or if she wanted to be in foreign policy, as UN Ambadassor she could have traveled the world speaking out.

And I suspect Obama would have much preferred to to her in one of those other roles.

[aquart]

207. YOU WANTED HILLARY TO DO WOMEN'S WORK?

Jobs that would never lead to the presidency. The most qualified woman we ever managed to put forth and you believe every disgusting lie ever told about her just so you can avoid putting a woman in the presidency.

Disgusting.

[karynnj]

269. nonsense, look at her past those were her interest areas

She opted to head her husband's effort on health care in the US and to head his efforts to improve education in Arkansas. It is true that she did visit many countries and that that helped the US, but she was not involved in any negotiations on anything. She never asked for a security clearance.

When she went to the Senate, she did not join the SFRC, she joined the Health, Edication, Labor and Pensions committee and the Armed Services committee. As President, she would have relied on her national security team including her SoS. As SoS, look at how the job was condtructed. Mitchell was handling Israel, Holbrooke was handling Afghanistan/Pakistan/India and Biden was handling Iraq. Obviously, with Obama getting the last word. HRC ran the state department and made many many visits to allies, big and small.

She was also a member of Obama's national security team, where she used her articulateness, authority and presence to push for more hawkish positions.

[karynnj]

268. kerry was among the most qualified after about 20 years

On the SFRC. You might have noticed that he almost immediately became a very very effective Democrat even though a huge number of problems had to be faced almost immediately.

Also consider it was no secret that even while Senator, Obama used him to meet with people in Oman about possible secret talks with Iran and used him for sensitive missions in both Afghanistan and Pakistan when the top diplomats in the administration had poor ties there.

Kerry, was both a foreign policy expert and an incredible lyrics skilled natural diplomat. That was as true in 2008 as in 2012.

[tk2kewl]

78. what qualities and achievements do people cite when deciding such a thing?

she may be one of the most powerful women in the world, but does that really equate to respect?

[polly7]

84. Really?

I haven't even heard her name mentioned up here. Except long ago when Bill was in the WH with his shenanigans. What were the results of the Canadian poll, if you don't mind?

On edit: Also ....... could you post a quick linkie to the poll results from Libya, Iraq, Syria, Honduras and Haiti? Thanks so much.

Russia, China too please. I can't imagine them being polled but you did say the world.

[Vattel]

29. Lol, she certainly was a disaster when it came to Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan.

[tk2kewl]

36. Iraq... see #32

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1402540

[coyote]

38. Even critics understate how catastrophically bad the Hillary Clinton-led NATO bombing of Libya was

***
If Americans are concerned with these problems, they should be equally concerned with the prospect of a Clinton presidency. A vote for Hillary is a vote for war. Or, as economist Jeffrey Sachs put it in a recent article, Clinton “is the candidate of the military-industrial complex” and “the war machine.”

If Americans do not want to be marched toward more and more war, if Americans do not want the majority of their tax dollars spent on death and destruction, they should be very suspicious of Clinton and her record.

The destruction of Libya is the capstone of Hillary Clinton’s foreign policy record. And this singular symbol of her legacy is one of abject failure, indefensible atrocities and tragic destruction.

more...

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/02/even_critics_understate_how_catastrophically_bad_the_hillary_clinton_led_nato_bombing_of_libya_was/

[BlueMTexpat]

109. "Hillary-led" ... LOL

Gosh that woman is SO powerful! She trumps the CiC, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the National Security Adviser, the Secretary of Defense, NATO and all our European allies. (None of course had their own personal reasons for going after Qaddafi.)

She is SO powerful and persuasive that all kneel before her and immediately cede to her.

You believe ALL this and still can't believe that she cannot lead a "revolution." But Bernie can??

Can't have it both ways.

[Gwhittey]

149. ?

Do you not actually follow world events or even read history on Libya? We will discount the email that was just recently released by State Dept where she is bragging about how she was responsible for Libya(Which at the time was looking to be a win to her eyes).

But look at whole story behind it and her role in it. She is the Sec of State and does have ear of President.

[Marr]

208. Pardon? Who wants to have it both ways, again?

You need to decide whether you're going to count Secretary of State as one of her credentials, or whether she was just a quiet little church mouse who sat to the side while others ran State.

[BlueMTexpat]

218. She certainly wasn't "a quiet little

church mouse" and never has been. But I think that you do not realize that the Secretary of State does not make war policy or decisions, however you might wish it to be so in Hillary's case, so that ONLY Hillary is ever held responsible for joint decision-making - even when it is not her specific portfolio to do so.

Whenever anything bad happens, ONLY Hillary is responsible, according to her detractors - as if no one else was ever involved or had an even more significant role in decision-making.

War policy is the province of the Secretary of Defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the intelligence agencies, and ultimately of the Commander-in-Chief. Coordinating with allies and reporting what those allies recommend ARE responsibilities of the Secretary of State. But coordinating with NATO allies to wage war falls squarely within the Department of Defense together with ALL of the aforesaid.

One thing that the assertions by so many here have shown is that very few actually understand the processes of the Federal Government at all. I worked with DoS (was actually one of their lawyers) for several years and one of my responsibilities was to coordinate certain policies with DoD..

Unless you have similar background and experience, please do not dismiss mine - or Hillary's. She was an exceptionally good SoS (I did not serve under her but know personally many who did) and my judgment reflects theirs. It also reflects my experience on the Other Side of The Pond when I worked with International Organizations. Their high esteem for her was nearly unanimous.

[Marr]

225. I have seen no one claim that Hillary Clinton dictated foreign policy by fiat.

That's an overstatement and very easy to argue against.

But hers was a position of responsibility and influence. You don't get to cite that endlessly as a credential, while shrugging off actual responsibility for the policies undertaken on your watch. Her popularity with the staff is completely immaterial.

[BlueMTexpat]

234. Sheesh - that's been the whole specious argument

against Hillary's tenure at State for some - that it was the "Hillary-led coalition" in Libya that started this whole cockamamie sub-thread off!

Now THAT was an overstatement. And that is what I was arguing against. You dropped into the middle of the conversation and apparently assumed I was arguing against a claim of Hillary dictating foreign policy by fiat - which was never the case - and your argument actually supports my position. Inadvertently, I am sure.

Then you started off on a tangent and finished up with a snark about Hillary's "popularity" with the staff being irrelevant.

If you have any knowledge of the civil and foreign service of the DoS (not political appointees, btw, but those who have earned their stripes through competitive exams and other proofs of quality before being engaged), you would know that they are the backbone of the organization. Their respect and admiration are not easy to earn.

Political appointees come and go. Some actually contribute to the overall quality of the organization and strengthen it, some don't, and others are benign. All are at least respectfully tolerated for their period of service. Hillary belongs in the first category and did indeed earn the respect and admiration of the overwhelming majority of employees at the DoS.

That may mean absolutely nothing to you. And that's fine. But please leave off the snark. Please.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

39. She did very well as SoS

She got a lot of donations from foreign governments for her foundation.

It all depends on the meaning of "successful".

[tk2kewl]

40. and the sorry state of our politics...

means that on the teeeveee she as an extra "bullet" on her resume that the others don't.

no discussion of what happened while she was SOS other than her email fail

[DrDan]

57. yes she did - particularly since she came in after 8 years of fumbled foreign policy from bush

[tk2kewl]

81. cite a Clinton foreign policy achievement you are proud of

[DrDan]

161. how about letting these folks speak

"Hillary Clinton was the principal author of the sanction on Iran that brought them to the table."

Howard Dean


"Nearly every foreign policy victory of President Obama’s second term has Secretary Clinton’s fingerprints on it"

Harry Reid


"Clinton is one of the most accomplished people ever to run"

Chuck Schumer


"Rebuilding America’s leadership and prestige overseas after the Bush years"

Bill Richardson



"Crippling sanctions against Iran"

Paul Begala


I am quite sure you will be offering a snarkish rebuttal - oh well, she will continue to have my support through my vote and financial contribution.

[tk2kewl]

167. no snark...

citations usually come with references, but I will address Dean's comment b/c it's the only one that isn't just platitudes or an incomplete sentence, and actually references something specific.

"Hillary Clinton was the principal author of the sanction on Iran that brought them to the table." -- Howard Dean

not sure how exactly Howard would know, but Hillary took a very hawkish stand after the deal was announced

Hillary Clinton breaks with Obama, threatens war to enforce Iran deal
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/9/hillary-clinton-threatens-war-enforce-iran-deal/?page=all

[tk2kewl]

75. lol

nice counter argument. why not read through the thread to see why people that care about how we go about matters of war and peace find her record so abysmal?

nah, much easier to shoot the messenger. no worries i can take it

[Armstead]

49. A Better Question -- Why wasn't she appointed to something more in line with her experience?

Sec of Education or HUD or Sec of Labor a position where she would be directly involving in steering policies in the fields in which she has the most background, and expertise, and which she claims to care about most?

[Kip Humphrey]

60. Resume.

[Armstead]

63. Yep. She got to burnish her resume for the election....at our expense

[tk2kewl]

74. ours and many others expense around the globe

sad thing is that the resume doesn't get any in depth review in the media... just a check mark next to SOS

[Lizzie Poppet]

68. Not as prestigious.

SecState's the Big Prize in the Cabinet...and the best resume item for a second run at the presidency.

And it worked: now her stint as SecState is being touted as her best qualification...despite a performance in office that should horrify any non-warmonger.

[Betty Karlson]

54. Selling fracking in the wide world alone was disastrous.

And killing Ghaddafi was perhaps just her way of trying to look "presidential" when Obama had already taken out Bin Laden.

[randome]

79. Right. Because SOS's routinely run the world behind the President's back.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Betty Karlson]

88. "We came, we saw, he died"

Why run behind the president's back when you can manipulate the head of state?

[randome]

159. It was Obama's call, not hers. He is a very smart man not given to manipulation.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Betty Karlson]

173. You mean he decided to jump back on the fence about gay rights all by himself?

If that is his definition of 'fierce advocacy' that I am going to take a pass on Obama appreciation. I will never forgive him those years. Nor his work (with Clinton) on TPP and TIPP.

[randome]

211. No, I mean he's Commander In Chief, not Clinton.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Betty Karlson]

223. Let's keep it that way, especially the "not Clinton" part.

[tk2kewl]

98. The ones aligned with Kissenger probably do

The "Bravo!" email

“I cannot imagine how exhausted you must be after this week, but I have NEVER been prouder of having worked for you,” writes Slaughter, who worked as an advisor to Clinton in the State Department from 2009 to February 3, 2011, and then remained a consultant to the policy planning bureau. “Turning POTUS around on this is a major win for everything we have worked for.” An earlier email release, which I reported on previously, showed that Slaughter had spent February 2011 imploring Clinton to involve the United States militarily in Libya, insisting that it would “change the image of the United States overnight.”

http://inthesetimes.com/article/18912/bravo-email-shows-anne-marie-slaughter-congratulating-clinton-on-libya

why was she trying to "Turn POTUS around?" and on a decision that end up a disaster?

[randome]

121. Her job was to advise Obama. You make a common mistake when you take someone else's words...

...as a one and true interpretation of events. What Slaughter said is simply his words, no one else's.

To say Libya was all Clinton's doing is very short-sighted and betrays one's prejudices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/hillary-clinton-libya.html?_r=0

In the throes of the Arab Spring, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi was facing a furious revolt by Libyans determined to end his quixotic 42-year rule. The dictator's forces were approaching Benghanzi, the crucible of the rebellion, and threatening a blood bath. France and Britain were urging the United States to join them in a military campaign to halt Colonel Qaddafi's troops, and now the Arab League, too, was calling for action.

It was a very complex and violent situation but if you're reading into it that it was nothing but 'adventurism' on Clinton's part, I think you are selectively seeing what you want.

Maybe it wasn't handled well, maybe it made ISIS stronger, all good points, but, again, the international community was practically begging us to intervene. It is not as simple as Clinton simply deciding one morning she wanted to kill some people, or to bully then.

Even this NYT article, critical of her, states that much.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[tk2kewl]

126. seemed she was quite pleased with killing Qaddafi

she really seemed to get a kick out of it

and i will absolutely not disagree that i have strong prejudices against Hillary in many areas, based upon her record

[randome]

151. I've posted my take on her 'glee' with killing Qaddafi before.

She comes from an older generation that needed to strive harder to prove she was as good as a man. I think she overstated matters when she made that 'we came, we saw, he died' comment.

In that context, it's not a big deal to me but it was, at the very least, inartful phrasing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[EndElectoral]

56. Yeah, I beleive her tenure as SOS was abysmal.

[Pisces]

65. Unrec, so sick of right wing trolls running amok on this board with their garbage.

[tk2kewl]

73. .

you hurt my feelings

[Gwhittey]

158. Wait

why are your feelings hurt? He was talking about Hillary supporters being Right wing because of all her necon actions as SoS? And you have a big Bernie gif that I assume means you support him?

[BlueMTexpat]

219. +1! What makes

me even sicker is that so many call themselves "liberals."

[Beacool]

257. Hear, hear!!!!

DU = Free Republic when it comes to the Clintons.

The same vile and disgusting comments.

[Pisces]

270. That's because many are Repubs in sheep's clothing or just bots. It's crazy the right wing

memes and and attacks I see passed on this board as if they were Bernie supporters.

[INdemo]

92. Obama wanted to be assured that he

Would not be challenged in 2012 which some Hillary supporters then wanted her to do. They were pissed about some of his cabinet appointments. Bill Clinton wanted her to challenge Obama even as SOS

[tk2kewl]

95. "Bill Clinton wanted her to challenge Obama even as SOS"

for the nom in 2012? or on policy while SOS?

clearly there were people who wanted her to challenge him on foreign policy from her SOS post:

The "Bravo!" email

“I cannot imagine how exhausted you must be after this week, but I have NEVER been prouder of having worked for you,” writes Slaughter, who worked as an advisor to Clinton in the State Department from 2009 to February 3, 2011, and then remained a consultant to the policy planning bureau. “Turning POTUS around on this is a major win for everything we have worked for.” An earlier email release, which I reported on previously, showed that Slaughter had spent February 2011 imploring Clinton to involve the United States militarily in Libya, insisting that it would “change the image of the United States overnight.”

http://inthesetimes.com/article/18912/bravo-email-shows-anne-marie-slaughter-congratulating-clinton-on-libya

[EndElectoral]

179. Well, apparently she did challenge Obama on Libya if the latest emails released by the FBI are true.

[tk2kewl]

180. yup

[peace13]

94. Do you remember when Hill went missing, before she conceded to Obama!

Gone for over two weeks, setting press conferences and failing to show. Well something brought her out of her hidy hole. Not sure if it was medication or Big Bill securing the future. There was a very big problem there and we were not privy to the deals!

[rock]

96. No

Apparently we can't.

[tk2kewl]

101. "No we can't"

i know that's a general theme of the Clinton campaign, but I don't actually understand what you mean by it in this context.

[rock]

172. "Can we just be honest about why Hillary even got to be SOS..."

The answer is, "No, look at your own answer".

But the really nice thing is you give me an opening to explain to the readers that don't get it ("No we can't&quot what it means. Sometimes it's hard to do nothing about a problem even when it's the right thing to do. Sometimes a solution is not practical or even desirable. Example: Education for all. Certainly without qualification this is a poor idea. Does one mean college education, post-graduate education. And does that education apply to people that don't want it? What Hillary generally means (hey! I'm as psychic as the next Sander's supporter) is that the solution being offered is too green and ill-conceived and needs more work in the thought and planning.

[Hydra]

247. I never thought about it that way- you're brilliant!

Team Hill:

No we can't!

We can't explain why she was a good SOS

No we can't!

We can't explain why she's good for PoCs

No we can't!

We can't explain how she will win the GE

And...We don't care! Vote for Hillary. Or else!

[thereismore]

97. It was a price for supporting Obama at the convention in 2008. He paid

for it, many thousands died, many are dislodged from their homes and countries, and we may ultimately pay for it if she wins the nomination. She was truly a horrible SoS.

[jcgoldie]

112. Republicans in the senate who confirmed her...

They despised her as they do now because of her progressive record. And yet they confirmed her remarking on the fact that she was one of the most well prepared and informed individuals they had ever seen on foreign affairs and matters of state. She has an encyclopedic knowledge of situations and history around the world. Your argument is ridiculous, she was and is immensely qualified and capable.

[Chalco]

114. According to my peeps on the inside

Hillary was a great SOS. Please stop your bullying. It is more than tiresome.

[tk2kewl]

116. really?... tell us what your inside peeps have to say

[Chalco]

214. Organized, compassionate, practical, open to discussion, open to viewpoints, good listener, etc. etc

She was like a breath of fresh air.

Sorry to blow your bubble. She was not a figurehead. She was involved and did her job well, as she will when she become President.

[azureblue]

118. can you be honest

About why you have nothing to do but come here and fling poo, instead of offering something constructive? You really think DU'er will fall for your crap? You getting paid for it, perhaps?

GTFO troll

[tk2kewl]

124. nice counter argument

plenty of substance in this thread, but feel free to ignore it

as far as troll goes... i have 3 hides here in over 12 yrs... 2 were for anti cop posts and one was for, colorfully shall we say, defending against a personal attack on me and my wife

[Agschmid]

125. Not worth the hide, don't take the bait.

[Arazi]

127. Obama and Hillary made this deal so he could get her delegates and win the nomination

That's the theory I've always held.

And yes, she's been a monstrous SOS

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

147. History has tried hard to teach us that we can’t have good government under politicians. Mark Twain

“History has tried hard to teach us that we can’t have good government under politicians. Now, to go and stick one at the very head of the government couldn’t be wise.” Mark Twain

[FreedomRain]

152. her foreign policy successes

Cmon, there must be some, and plenty of her supporters in this thread. Can we hear them? We're going to need to know them to support her in the General if she somehow gets the nom. How she got there was typical political trading, I'm not too miffed about that. But what would I tell undecideds about her success at the job?

[LanternWaste]

165. Cool allegations.

Cool allegations. Depth and breadth of a bumper-sticker one might see on a vehicle boasting Truck Nutz.

[tk2kewl]

168. the op was deliberately provocative...

seems that's all you had time to read

[Gwhittey]

169. So

in response to OP question of what success HRC had as SoS is she had "Cool allegations. Depth and breadth of a bumper-sticker one might see on a vehicle boasting Truck Nutz." I am not sure what she did involving that, can you please provide more details on her Cool allegations?

[SheenaR]

174. 171 Replies

And 2 comments from Clinton supporters offering a rebuttal to the OP as to why she was not a failure and/or was qualified.

Two.

And one was "because Republicans thought she was good too"

Same stuff every thread. Posit a question to them, and it's

- Faux Shock
- "This is RW nonsense"
- Disgusting, doesn't belong on DU
- "Typical BernieBros response"

It's literally in every thread where a question is posed that challenges the frontrunner.

Hillary 2016- "Because I said so"

[tk2kewl]

187. neolib economy, neocon war, full steam ahead!

[Arazi]

203. Out of those 2 replies, 1 was simply a recitation of praise for HRC

no foreign policy "success" was named

It's pretty depressing

[UglyGreed]

182. K/R

[tk2kewl]

183. looks like i hit a nerve

[artislife]

190. Playing her song

hint: title

[pdsimdars]

196. Truth to power, baby!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

204. The real cause is imperialism.

We have been doing this for decades. Overthrowing democratically elected governments like Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, installing the Shah of Iran who was in turn overthrown in the 1979 revolution, and Syria twice starting in 1949, lots of places in Central America, and installing our puppet fascist dictators. Bernie has mentioned Mossadegh.

Remember the Contras and the Sandinistas? How Daniel Ortega was the great evil in Nicaragua? Remember when we decided we had to get Noriega after making deals with him? When we decided the whole Middle East would be just fine if we got rid of Saddam Hussein? Remember when Reagan traded arms for hostages when he explicitly lied and said he would not do that? Remember the Iran-Contra hearings? Ollie North was the fall guy. Ronnie got elected and screwed Carter by making a secret deal where the Iran hostages would not be released until the hour Reagan was inaugurated on January 20, 1981.

Overthrowing Salvador Allende in Chile and installing Agusto Pinochet, a fascist dictator. Sticking our noses in countries we have no business destabilizing, and stealing their resources in exchange for not killing the country's leader. It's just imperialism and exploitation of other countries. We did it back in Teddy Roosevelt's day by stealing the Phillippines and Hawaii.

As Thom Hartmann said, "Our oil just happened to be under their land."

[tk2kewl]

205. and the only american politician with the guts to call this shit out:

[Arazi]

216. Don't forget her role in the Honduran coup

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/7/28/clinton_the_coup_amid_protests_in

While the United States publicly supported Zelaya’s return to power, newly released emails show Clinton was attempting to set up a back channel of communication with Roberto Micheletti, who was installed as Honduran president after the coup. In one email, Clinton referenced lobbyist and former President Clinton adviser Lanny Davis. She wrote, "Can he help me talk w Micheletti?" At the time, Davis was working for the Honduran chapter of the Business Council of Latin America, which supported the coup. In another email, Thomas Shannon, the State Department’s lead negotiator for the Honduras talks, refers to Manuel Zelaya as a "failed" leader.

She's got major responsibility for the civil war there but hey! let's just send those kids back to teach their parents a lesson

[Manifestor_of_Light]

224. I saw John Perkins talk about imperialism on the Thom Hartmann Show.

On RT America. He has a new edition out of "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" where he talks about the role of toppling governments to install our puppets. The leaders who don't go along with us simply get assassinated.

I'm not familiar with all the instances of imperialists overthrowing democratically elected leaders. Thanks for the info on Honduras. There are so many countries we have done this to.

Bernie mentioned Mossadegh in Iran in 1953 and said "Nobody knows who Mossadegh is" since it happened so long ago.

[closeupready]

217. "Little Miss Shortcuts."

A term I saw in another thread discussing her lifetime pattern of taking the easy way rather than the challenging one.

[BlueMTexpat]

221. Very cheap shot!

Shame on you! So helping to register Latino votes in Texas in 1972 was "taking the easy way" - I don't think you know what it was like for blacks and Latinos in Texas in 1972.

But she is remembered for her efforts there - and all other ways in which she advanced their causes. They rewarded her with their overwhelming support on Super Tuesday. You don't just have to take it from me.

That job (Bill and Hillary's) was registering black and Hispanic South Texas voters for the Democratic National Committee.

The campaign's challenge was insurmountable. McGovern’s liberal policies repelled old Lyndon B. Johnson allies like John Connally, who led the “Democrats for Nixon” effort. Stricken by a state party at war with itself, McGovern ended up losing Texas in November by a two-to-one margin.

But ever since, the Clintons have had a personal connection to the state.

“Although Bill was the only person I knew when I got to Austin, Texas in August, I quickly made some of the best friends I’ve ever had," Hillary Clinton wrote in her memoir.

Clinton declined to be interviewed for this story. And many of the people who worked with her on the 1972 campaign have passed away. But there are still several who worked with her in Texas who remember the serious and driven law student.

https://www.texastribune.org/2015/05/16/clintons-take-texas-1972/

The article at the link is excellent. If you really want to learn something about Hillary instead of repeating the same B***S*** that is spewed here 24/7, take a few minutes to read it. That was just the beginning of her activist career and she has NOT taken short cuts, but has been one of the hardest-working individuals ever.

[moondust]

220. Others were better qualified.

Last edited Thu Mar 3, 2016, 03:54 PM - Edit history (1)

As I've posted before, I'm not aware of HRC speaking any foreign languages or having any particular background or interest in international relations/diplomacy before taking the SOS job. Quite a few other Americans did have those things.

I suspect it was strictly a political consolation prize to unite the party and give her resume a boost for any future campaign. It's *possible* that the Clinton machine demanded it in exchange for their support.

[Hydra]

248. It's almost certain it was a horse trade

Obama's supporters were horrified to find that they had fought so hard...to get Hillary Clinton into the back door to the WH.

There were some unexpected windfalls for Obama- the Clintons helped him when he stumbled here and there during his tenure...but nobody could seriously claim he was happy to have Hillary on his team in the beginning.

[notadmblnd]

226. I think she was given the position for endorsing Obama after she bowed out of the 2008 race.

Then promised by TPTB that her turn at POTUS would be next.

Now she wants that tiara and scepter and come hell or high water, she plans on getting it.

[randome]

231. Simplistic peevishness.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[notadmblnd]

232. You think it's more complicated than that?

You might want to look up the word peevishness. I don't think it means what you think it does.

[Gmak]

241. Assassination of environmental activist in Honduras and Hillary's record there...

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/3/3/1495334/-An-Assassination-in-Honduras-and-the-Legacy-of-Hillary-Clinton

Read this a while ago and it chilled my blood. All those children coming here by themselves to escape the horror of drug gangs and sexual slavery and just plain crime and we find our candidate for president was not only complicit in the destruction of society there, but she callously said recently, send the kids back where they came from.

See the paragraph about Haiti as well, and that was the Clinton Foundation's handiwork. I am sick, I tell you, sick to think of what the Clintons are capable of in the pursuit of power and money. Bernie had better win the nomination, or this and worse will be used against the Democratic candidate all the way to Nov.

Natural for Obama to give her a high profile job in his admin. so the Clintons wouldn't get their allies in Congress to obstruct him.

[virgista]

249. Anyone remember the news silence after Qaddafi was killed?

From the day after MG was killed we barely heard a peep about the fate of Libya. Meanwhile, in short order, tribal chaos ensued, then quickly ISIS-types moved in. The Obama administration and HRC wanted that news blackout. The terrible, and predictable, after effects didn't fit with their cute little plan. The news is still blacking out the fact that a large percentage of the fleeing refugees are coming through lawless Libyan coasts.

[Hekate]

251. What bullshit

Hope you're having fun

[virgista]

255. Evidence for the news blackout: blank looks from friends and family when you mention Libya debacle

More evidence for the disasterous consequences of US FU in Libya can be found in an excellent two-part series in this week's New York Times: "The Libya Gamble" by Scott Shane. Scott Shane is also interviewed on today's Democracy Now.

[Historic NY]

252. So you saying Obama has poor judgement.

you offer no proof to support your statement. Please provide specifics.

[virgista]

261. The caul fell from my eyes in 2010 when he and Boehner tried to cut Social Security.

See text of Obama's second State of the Union, and also other speeches around that time. Before that, I worshipped him--like most Democrats apparently still do. I voted for Rocky Anderson in 2012. Back to Libya, it's hard to prove a negative. There was, and has been, a negative amount of quality news about Libya in America.

[senz]

253. "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer."

Everyone was using that phrase when Obama announced the appointment.

Having savaged Obama, both Clintons had been unceremoniously enraged for a few weeks and were attempting to present a cooler, more positive front. Word was that Hill was not about to give up and go away, some were even predicting a probable 2012 primary challenge.

Hill had no foreign policy experience but could not be trusted out there as an unemployed loose canon in a major snit. Deals were made.

Obama arranged a little peace of mind for himself in his first term as president.

With the exception of a few foreign policy blunders,it probably didn't work out too poorly.

[Samantha]

262. I was headed to the bottom of this thread to say exactly this

I truly believe that is why he appointed her....

Sam

[senz]

264. Yes, I'm sure of it, too.

Much as Hill fans try to paint them in rosy tones as bosom buddies, I am sure the Clintons are a major headache for Obama, an unfortunate fact of life that he has to deal with, a kind of albatross he'd like to shake loose. I think they have some kind of hold over him.

[Beacool]

254. Yawn.......

Leave the condescending crap to Republicans, they do a better job at it.

[HassleCat]

259. The workers liked her.

I know a couple people in the Foreign Service, and they say she took care of the professional staff. So she did at least part of the job right.

[Hiraeth]

267. K&R for the discussion this OP generated.

[Orsino]

272. Let's be even more honest about her national career.

A woman's only path to the very top at the close of the last century may have been to ride the coattails of a popular president, from which she carpetbagged her way into an open Senate seat, setting the stage for her own presidential bid, the near-miss of which earned her the consolation prize of the State Department.

If we really wanted a better first female president, we would have been promoting and supporting whole binders full of better candidates all along, rather than defaulting to men every goddamned time. Clinton has had to plumb the worst depths of corporate capitalism to keep her chance at the Oval Office alive, and it's probably not all her fault. History was always going to leave us behind at some point; a woman was going to fight her way past every obstacle using the worst weapons at her disposal.

This is not to try to diminish her considerable talents. Had she not been married to a governor and president, had she had to earn the support of voters to win elections, her path might have been even longer (and thus not achievable in a lifetime), but I believe she would still have become a national figure--just one with fewer and less terrible compromises in her story.

I think she has been bad for the party and the world, as much so as many of the men. But a lot of momentum defaulted her way for 2016, and no other woman (or man, maybe) has the name recognition to overcome hers.

We should have done much better, starting long ago.

[Freddie Stubbs]

273. Actually, it was John Kerry's turn