I'll admit it: I've lost one of my arguments against Bernie.

[Chichiri]

I've been thinking this whole time that he is unelectable. And I still do think that: he's a democratic socialist whose proposals will cost 18 trillion, and who has not vetted with anything like the thoroughness with which Hillary has. I honestly believe that the RNC would eat him alive.

But...

I've also become convinced that a ham sandwich can defeat Tinyfingers Drumpf. Even without hot mustard.

So yes, I'll give you guys this one.

[Agnosticsherbet]

1. Republicans are so afraid that Trump will cause a Tsunami of disgust against their party

that they are openly considering ways of fixing the nomination, which even they admit will alienate about 25 to 35% of their voters.

I think if nominate a ham sandwich it will win.

[panader0]

2. "I've also become that a ham sandwich can defeat Tinyfingers Drumpf>"

What does that mean?

[NCTraveler]

3. Watch Oliver's latest rant.

YouTube John Oliver Drumpf.

It's well worth the twenty minutes.

Edit to add:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511378682

[panader0]

8. There must be a word, at least, missing.

[Chichiri]

11. the word is convinced. Sorry about that. Nt

[Svafa]

9. I don't think it was the smallfingers drumpf part that he/she was

confused about.

[NCTraveler]

10. I see that now.

Thank you. Still a good video to watch. Trump is really a sick man. For those interested I don't remember Clinton or Sanders being mentioned in it. Great rant.

[Svafa]

12. Definitely. Thank goodness for John Oliver.

[JaneyVee]

4. Sasha and Malia would beat Trump.

[gcomeau]

5. I held the same early objection.

But GE matchup polling dismantled it months ago, and continues to do so... he can clearly win.

An actual progressive... can win... in the United States... which is an opportunity of truly historical import.


And the establishment is dead set on making sure he doesn't get the chance.

[sabrina 1]

6. Too bad then that Hillary can't beat him, by your logic that would make her what?

The 'ham sandwich' trounces him the GE. So what would call someone who can't?

[Chichiri]

13. no, Hillary would beat him in the general.

Hillary will defeat any one of those jokers in the general.

[sabrina 1]

19. Um no, she is losing badly against Repubs in the GE. She barely edges

out one of them by !%.

Bernie trounces all of them!

[Chichiri]

22. Matchup polls have no predictive power before the convention.

And that's based on conventions held after the Olympics; this year they're coming before.

Besides, I've seen several recent polls where Hillary trumps Drumpf. I guess you haven't.

[sabrina 1]

35. Really? Unless they favor Hillary I've noticed, which they do not. Yesterday Trump gave us a

preview of what the GE will look if he gets his wish and Hillary is the nominee.

"I can't wait to go head to head with Hillary in the GE, well that is IF she isn't arrested by then"

Van Jones was forced out of Obama's cabinet because the Right Wing were trying to make a big deal over a petition he signed years before. A great petition btw I signed it alos.

Shirley Sherrod was FIRED based on a doctored video by Breitbart without even waiting a few hours to see if it was real or not.

Gov McGrevey was forced to resign for having a Gay love affair.

I could go on, all this, we were told, was because we do not want to give the Right Wing stuff to attack us with.

NO ONE before has been under investigation by the DOJ and the FBI for matters having to do with NATIONAL SECURITY.

Yet, the DNC isn't concerned of how much hay they will make of this?

Trump jumped the gun, but it tells us what a GE with Hillary will be like.

Even if the DOJ clears her, it will be even worse.

They will claim 'Obama's DOJ used their power to cover for her'

Imo, when a candidate is already losing in polls to the Republicans and now has legal problems this serious THEY should suspend their campaigns and focus on their own issues.

[Chichiri]

36. She has no legal problems, and she leads Trump by more than Obama led Romney. nt

[sabrina 1]

37. Please, let's be honest here. Trump wants Hillary to win because he has seen the polls

She cannot beat him. Bernie otoh crushes him in some polls and beats by enough of a margin we know Trump cannot overcome.

Are you SERIOUS when you say 'she has not legal troubles'? That is absurd. Even many of here media supporters are now acknowledging the seriousness of a Federal Criminal Investigation. How many other candidates for the WH have been under a Federal Criminal Investigation?

I know how I would feel if that were happening to me. I would be terrified. So would most people. She should be and probably is.

[Chichiri]

48. Could you link to an official announcement that a criminal investigation is underway? nt

[Gwhittey]

46. See you are coming at this as

a HRC supporter. Try and come at it as someone who is a (I) you know more people than GOP and DNC combined. They voted for Bush in 2000 because of things like NAFTA that Clinton pushed and constant scandal because Bill could not keep it in his pants, well at least not get caught doing it. Many (I) do not like Hillary as they see her as just another in long line of corrupt leaders. Trump is going to nail the piss out of her on Iraq war, why do you think he would risk bringing it up in GOP debate. It was a setup to go after Hillary not so much a hit on Jeb as little bonus jab because Jeb was already on his death bed. He is going to crush her on taking money and being influenced because he he gave her money and it influenced her. She went to his wedding at same time he was hounding Obama on Birther crap. Why did she go? If it was because she is friends that is bad, if it was because he gave her money that is worse.

[Chichiri]

49. People have been nailing the piss out of Hillary for decades.

To use your (unfortunate) terminology. She's still here.

[panader0]

14. A baloney sandwich?

[sabrina 1]

18. Lol, why didn't I think of that?? Good one!

[kristopher]

43. I would say...

she's just the ham, but in fact she is loaded with bread - the $153,000,000 in speaking fees type.

[think]

7. You know that single payer would replace existing health care costs right?

[longship]

15. TYT's Cenk Uygur addressed that very topic this week.

In high dudgeon, I might add:

[SunSeeker]

16. I think Trump could beat Bernie if the Kochs let loose that billion they're sitting on.

The Kochs appear fine with Trump, why else are they sitting out this primary? Bernie has not been vetted. Some folks tried to post some of the more sensational negative facts here, but they got hidden. DU won't be able to hide Koch ads.

Hillary, on the other hand, has had everything thrown at her already (including here at DU) and remains resilient.

A B-Movie actor got elected. Trump could get elected with a weak enough opponent, namely Bernie. I'm not willing to take that chance.

[Ron Green]

17. Your argument comes from an old paradigm, which is

that money buys the election. The new paradigm, if it's to be, is that a people-powered movement overcomes money.

Does truth emerge when the message is clear? Does it translate to votes? That remains to be seen.

[SunSeeker]

21. Bernie losing while outspending Hillary in MA & SC shows money alone can't always do it.

But as I said money plus sensational negative facts could. Bernie has never had to fight back against that kind of attack. Hillary has--and is. And she's still standing.

[Ron Green]

25. Of course it's not just how much she spent or didn't,

it's the media funded by her benefactors as well. For many months Bernie's only message delivery was through social media and word of mouth, while the MSM has been in the tank for Hillary. This is still mostly true, even after his significant electoral gains.

This is a struggle not just for the soul of the Democratic Party, not even just for the soul of America. It's a struggle for representative democracy, to find out if a broadly enfranchised population can vote to reject expensive propaganda and regain agency within a complex and tainted electoral system.

[kristopher]

44. Ron, you have a great way with words.

[Karma13612]

45. +10

[Gothmog]

28. I fear that Sanders is bringing a knife to a gun fight

Sanders does not appear to be viable in a contest where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the likely GOP nominee will be able to raise another billion dollars. This article had a very interesting quote about the role of super pacs in the upcoming election http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/03/bernie-sanders-grassroots-movement-gains-clinton-machine

Harvard University professor Lawrence Lessig, who founded a Super Pac to end Super Pacs, said Sanders’ renouncing Super Pacs is tantamount to “bringing a knife to a gunfight”.

“I regret the fact the Bernie Sanders has embraced the idea that he’s going to live life like the Vermont snow, as pure as he possibly can, while he runs for president, because it weakens his chances – and he’s an enormously important progressive voice,” Lessig said.

President Obama was against super pacs in 2012 but had to use one to keep the race close. I do not like super pacs but any Democratic candidate who wants to be viable has to use a super pac.

I would love to see someone explain how Sanders would be viable because the explanations that I have seen so far have been sad and weak.

[Recursion]

20. Sanders is a stronger candidate against any of them... Except Trump

Unfortunately he concedes Trump's framing that we need to make America great again, and we can't win that race.

[azurnoir]

23. do you have a source for that? Bernie concedes to Trump "framing"

[Recursion]

27. His campaign speeches (nt)

[azurnoir]

29. cuse well ummm doesn't look like he has to concede to Trump as you claim

Dems vs Trump:
Clinton 52 - Trump 44
Sanders 55- Trump 43

Dems vs Rubio:
Clinton 47 - Rubio 50
Sanders 53- Rubio 45

Dems vs Cruz:
Clinton 48 - Cruz 49
Sanders 57- Cruz 40

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/01/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-poll/index.html

[stevenleser]

41. General election polls this far out are meaningless. nt

[MoonRiver]

24. I still think it is a very, very long shot he could be elected in the general.

But if something happened to Hillary and he got the nomination, I would work and pray like hell to prove that I am wrong. Trump is our best chance to keep the WH, which the morons who support him don't get, but the party professionals do. That's why Romney and others are pushing for a brokered convention if they can't twist enough arms to actually defeat that scum bag at primaries and caucuses.

[Gothmog]

26. I am worried about the MTP interview where Sanders stated "I am not a capitalist"

The attack ads from this appearance on Meet the Press write themselves. It is not a a great move to say that I am not a capitalist in that sound byte is so easy to use https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/12/why-bernie-sanders-isnt-going-to-be-president-in-5-words/

Meet the Press ✔ @meetthepress
CHUCK TODD: Are you a capitalist?@BernieSanders: No. I'm a Democratic Socialist.
8:33 AM - 11 Oct 2015

And, in those five words, Sanders showed why — no matter how much energy there is for him on the liberal left — he isn't getting elected president.

Why? Because Democrat or Republican (or independent), capitalism remains a pretty popular concept — especially when compared to socialism. A 2011 Pew Research Center survey showed that 50 percent of people had a favorable view of capitalism, while 40 percent had an unfavorable one. Of socialism, just three in 10 had a positive opinion, while 61 percent saw it in a negative light.

Wrote Pew in a memo analyzing the results:

Of these terms, socialism is the more politically polarizing — the reaction is almost universally negative among conservatives, while generally positive among liberals. While there are substantial differences in how liberals and conservatives think of capitalism, the gaps are far narrower.

...The simple political fact is that if Sanders did ever manage to win the Democratic presidential nomination — a long shot but far from a no shot at this point — Republicans would simply clip Sanders's answer to Todd above and put it in a 30-second TV ad. That would, almost certainly, be the end of Sanders's viability in a general election.

Americans might be increasingly aware of the economic inequality in the country and increasingly suspicious of so-called vulture capitalism — all of which has helped fuel Sanders's rise. But we are not electing someone who is an avowed socialist to the nation's top political job. Just ain't happening.

You can try to argue that the two terms are not the same but that will not stop the Kochs from running $200 milion to $300 million using that term in negative ads that would be very effective.

Sanders literally handed the GOP, the Kochs and Rove a ready made sound byte that can be so easily used

[Cleita]

32. Ah Chuckie Toad, so quotable and so wrong.

The Kochs can run all the ads they want. People are getting hip to the propaganda.

[Mnpaul]

33. Most people aren't capitalists

and most don't know what the term means

a wealthy person who uses money to invest in trade and industry for profit in accordance with the principles of capitalism.

Bernie answered the question correctly. He is clearly not a capitalist.

[Gothmog]

34. That explanation will not work in a general election campaign

[Cleita]

30. All that unelectable propaganda trash comes straight out of the Hillary campaign.

He has been elected to various offices for thirty years: mayor of Burlington, Vermont, 1981 to 1989; Congressman of the U. S. House of Representatives, 1991 to 2007; U. S. Senator from Vermont 2007 to the present. That's a lot of elections for someone who is supposed to be unelectable. That 18 trillion you are whining about is already being spent by the Military Industrial Complex and Wall Street. Bernie will redirect your tax money into programs that will actually benefit you and your descendants instead of allowing the billionaire class to empty the U. S. Treasury. The RNC and DNC (he's an Independent who caucuses with the Democrats) have been trying to eat him alive for decades and all they get is indigestion. But even a little enlightenment is better than none.

[PowerToThePeople]

31. Fuck Capitalism!

that is all.

[democrattotheend]

38. FWIW, Bernie is polling better against all the GOP candidates than Hillary

I don't put a ton of stock in that, because she is so well known that her negatives are probably as high as they will go barring a big scandal, whereas his are not. But still, I think that while his politics are admittedly to the left of most of the country (even to the left of mine on some issues!), he may be more electable because he comes across as more trustworthy, is one of the few politicians who can honestly say he is not tied to Wall Street or dependent on contributions from large corporations, and has less baggage than Hillary. They both have their strengths and weaknesses with regard to electability, which is why I decided to follow my heart in deciding whom to support.

[stevenleser]

40. General election polls this far out are close to meaningless. nt

[democrattotheend]

42. I don't completely disagree

Like I said, I think Bernie is not that well known yet and will probably have higher negatives once the Republicans start beating him up. But I am a little concerned that Hillary is not doing better against some of these clowns.

[stevenleser]

39. The point I've been emphasizing is Sanders can only win if the Republican nominee

Implodes. In that case, as you said, even a ham sandwich could beat the Republican nominee.

The risk with Sanders is that the red baiting is just so there with him that the GOP machine could use it to great effect and cause HIS candidacy to implode regardless of who the GOP nominee is.

[Gwhittey]

47. You are seeing this threw

rose tinted glasses. You are under assumption that Hillary is pure as driven snow. That she takes money from large corps yet has not done a thing to help them. Yet they just keep giving her money. Do you think CEOs can do that just give away money because they like the politics of that person? Well they give to both parties except for way overboard ones like Koch brothers. Trump is going to smash crap out of her. He is going to dial back the race baiting crap and attract many people who are (I) because they hate the two parties.

[stevenleser]

50. Nope, this discussion is not about Hillary and I didn't mention her. nt

[sabrina 1]

51. No one cares about Red Baiting except for old Cold Warriors, that has already DIED a sad death

as a tactic against him. Biggest voting bloc WANT a Democratic Socialist Govt, by 7 out of 10 across the political spectrum.

So you can put that to rest as all it was lose Hillary support when she, shamefully, tried it.

Bernie beats all the Repubs by big margin in National GE polls, period.

Hillary loses all of them except by a virtual tie with Trump.

I don't get the belief that in this day and age the old commie thingy would ever work.

In fact republicans are CERTAIN that the biggest 'commie' in the Dem Party is Clinton. So if they will use it against Sanders they will and ARE using it against her.

Next argument please.