So I think this guy knows a thing or 2 about Flint

[pinebox]

BOOM!

[EndElectoral]

1. Thanks for the post. HRC's obfuscations nothwithstanding

[dana_b]

2. I knew he'd have something logical to say n/t

[riversedge]

6. Moore and you should know she was not specifically referrring to Flint ONLY-she

repeated talked of the auto bailout.---

[Buzz Clik]

3. I love Michael Moore, but he is so sloppy with his data

Here's the real story:

http://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/archives/auto_industry/

By the way, how many jobs was Sanders planning to save by voting against the bailout?

[Jitter65]

7. BAM!!! nt

[redruddyred]

9. who is taking these r&d jobs

when we can't "afford" to send our kids to college??
i'd be sort of okay with the outsourcing if people were able to adapt to the new economy.

[Buzz Clik]

12. You picked out one graph out of all that data?

[redruddyred]

14. dyou wanna answer the question tho

?

[Buzz Clik]

16. No, I don't want to answer the question. If you want to change the subject...

... start a new thread.

[redruddyred]

17. how's this for a salient point

your graphs are abt michigan.

mr moore is referring to flint, a town in michigan.

but that's just a minor detail, eh?

[Buzz Clik]

21. The population of Flint, MI in 2009 was 111,000

So, Michael Moore is telling us that 72% of all men, women, and children -- regardless of age -- was working in the auto industry in 2009?

Whatever. My point is made. Have the last word.

[Buzz Clik]

33. Oh bullshit.

Moore was NOT talking about fast food jobs. He was very specific.

Good god.

[Buzz Clik]

43. No doubt, but not the focus of this thread.

[LisaM]

53. You know that the movie "Roger and Me" predates the 1990s, right?

He can't have it both ways. I disagree with NAFTA, always have, but the decline in Flint and the lost jobs did not begin in the 1990s. I like Michael Moore, too, but he has a habit of conflating data to earn emotional points.


"Ex-journalist Michael Moore demands answers when General Motors suddenly closes the doors of all its auto plants in the Flint, Michigan, the city where he grew up. With over 30,000 people out of work, Flint is economically devastated, and Moore aims to track down General Motors CEO Roger Smith to make him answer for his actions. While on the search, Moore also chronicles the emotional effect the closings have had on his family and friends, while violent crimes begin to skyrocket in Flint".

The film was released in 1989, but much of it was filmed earlier; for example, the year that Miss Michigan won Miss America was 1988.

[JDPriestly]

55. The problems in the auto industry began in the 1980s when we imported so many

Japanese cars. It went all the way back to the 1960s when we imported the Volkswagons. Great cars all.

Our auto industry insisted on building big cars, big, big cars.

But the environment, the trend toward smaller families and the cost of gasoline all pointed us toward buying small, really small cars.

Our auto industry did not respond well enough or quickly enough to the demand for small cars.

All that has changed. Our auto industry is more responsive to what the public wants and needs now. But it is too late.

We need an auto industry. But we need one that is not set in its ways.

The bail-out for the auto industry probably was not the only thing that was needed in Michigan. A more comprehensive government-initiated program to re-industrialize our nation was needed then and is still needed now. And the question is whether our private industry is at all interested in doing that job or whether perhaps we are going to have to do it with a lot more direct government involvement.

The trade agreements were an easy way to deal with the problems in our private industrial sector in which management was not flexible enough.

When so much capital is in the hands of so few, capitalism gets paralyzed by the greed and fear of those few with the most of the capital. It just doesn't work.

[LisaM]

56. Ralph Nader effectively stopped the manufacture of smaller cars in the US in its tracks

Funny how he was nowhere to be seen when the market was flooded with Civics that were about the size of garbage cans.

[JDPriestly]

57. Ralph Nader did not stop the manufacture of small cars or the use of small cars in the US.

Volkswagons were not dangerous as were the Corvairs.

Ralph Nader stopped the manufacture of small cars that were constructed dangerously.

I lived through that era.

Our automotive industry picked up its marbles and went home. It did not try to develop small cars that were both safe and inexpensive. Not until now. And now we have the Volt and some other small cars that are great. My husband drove a Saturn for years. We loved it. It was not the size of a container ship. It was just right for a family of four.

It is most definitely the backwardness of our auto industry leadership and the desire to make lots of money per car that caused the crisis in our auto industry. Unfortunately, the Saturn was one of the cars that was lost in this 2008 crisis. We loved that car.

We now have Hondas -- old, used ones. We are retired and don't drive much any more.

[LisaM]

59. I actually agree with you to SOME EXTENT - Corvairs were dangerous

as were a few other makes. But the early Civics were, too, and I didn't see ol' Ralph stepping in to save the day. He's always seem to have an agenda tucked away.

One major beef I have with Honda is that all Hondas manufactured in the 1990s were incredibly easy to steal and they did nothing about it. We do have a used Honda from the 1990s (we bought it from a friend, I wouldn't have bought it new) and it WAS stolen - we eventually got it back - and when I went to the Seattle PD tweets on stolen cars, a huge percentage were Hondas manufactured up until about 2005. The company did virtually nothing about it. Shared parking lots like ours are described as a smorgasbord for car thieves because Seattle has a lot of Hondas.

Anyway, I digress. I just really meant to say that Michael Moore's justifiable complaints are from well before the 1990s.

[redruddyred]

50. "used to have 80,000 jobs here"

i think he's clearly referring to some point before NAFTA

[Luminous Animal]

20. He voted for it.

Leahy, Sanders reluctantly support auto industry rescue

(Host) Vermont's two U.S. Senators, Patrick Leahy and Bernie Sanders, say they're reluctantly supporting a $15 billion rescue package for the nation's auto industry.
Both senators say that allowing Ford, General Motors or Chrylser to fall into bankruptcy could affect a lot of auto related jobs in Vermont.

http://linkis.com/www.vpr.net/news_det/bG1kg

[Buzz Clik]

22. Last night, he said he didn't vote for it.

[beedle]

25. he voted against the overall bailout bill

because there were companies (Banks and financial institutes) that directly caused their own problems and didn't deserve to be bailed out ... he supported a bailout for the auto industry, but there was choice to let the banks fail under their own hubris and save the auto industry.

Given the state of the economy where the top 1% is still skimming off almost all the productivity profits, his choice is looking to have been the better choice in the long run.

[DhhD]

32. How many jobs were sent packing due to NAFTA, that then lead to no parts for the assembly line?

How about the car factories that left the United States? Did Greenspan set the price of a car when controlling inflation? Oh yes, Clinton era deregulation in financing a car. And TPP is her next new Gold Standard-Right?

[Buzz Clik]

35. Who the HELL is talking about NAFTA?

[DhhD]

42. The entire middle class of millions of angry people around the world whose lives have been damaged

by several Presidents who have signed various BAD trade deals.

Clinton opened up a huge can of worms at the debate. She began trying to collect them by telling Sanders to let her do the talking until she got them back in the can. Oops; too late.

Republicans begin signing NAFTA in: Bush Clinton Bush, Next? Not Bernie!

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrSbmzAqd1WK64AAiql87UF;_ylc=X1MDOTU4MTA0NjkEX3IDMgRmcgMEZ3ByaWQDTXFsM3dOeVNSa3kxUnhnSWllTUZaQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDNARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMzMgRxdWVyeQNQcmVzaWRlbnQgQnVzaCBzaWducyBmaXJzdCBOQUZUQQR0X3N0bXADMTQ1NzM2NzUwOQ--?p=President+Bush+signs+first+NAFTA&fr=sfp&fr2=sb-top-search&iscqry=

[Buzz Clik]

44. Whoppee! Off to la-la land.

I won't be going with you.

[redruddyred]

51. like hillary clinton herself

your arguments are fundamentally dishonest.
i don't need to waste my life reading this; welcome to my ignore list.

[Buzz Clik]

54. typical

[RiverNoord]

46. Actually, the auto bailout was blocked by Senate Republicans.

Have a look at the official roll call:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00215

It would have sent to President Obama the $17 billion loan bailout that had just been approved by overwhelming margin in the House (H.R. 7321).

It failed on a cloture vote with almost complete Republican opposition. Both Sen. Sanders and Sen. Clinton were on record as supporting the bill and both voted for cloture.

So... instead of originating from a law directly authorizing the expenditures, the auto bailout funds came out of the TARP program, without clear statutory authorization. The Treasury established the program with Democratic House and Senate leadership sending a letter indicating support for such use.

Facts are really messy sometimes, especially when it comes to House and Senate procedures. Easy to take them out of context and have your way with them.

[lostnfound]

61. He voted for the $14 B auto bailout and against the $700 B bank bailout

Lots of Wall Street trader bonuses were on the line

[tazkcmo]

4. Has Clinton solved the water crisis yet?

She made a special trip to "get things done". Is it done yet? What progress has she made on this issue?

[Jitter65]

8. One thing she turned the heat up on the Governor to ask for and get Federal funds and her

presence brought and increased level of visibility to the issue...that alone get things done.

[tazkcmo]

10. Bullshit

Nothing has changed. In fact, that Federal funding has been held up in the Senate.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Sanders is in Congress. Other than wringing his hands, what has he done?

[Geronimoe]

27. He has worked very hard to expose the corruption in politics

that certainly is the root cause of a government that isn't working for the people. He met with people from Flint, long before Hillary and has discussed their situation and US infrastructure in most, if not all of his stump speeches and rallies.

What more do you think he should do as a candidate? He isn't the President yet.

[Buzz Clik]

30. What has he done Congress? As a Senator?

[DhhD]

39. Do you knows who has contacted Senator Lee about the funding?

[noiretextatique]

62. He is going to perform a miracle

And get the same obstructionists who have stymied the President to vote for funding for Flint. What the hell do you expect him to do?

[tazkcmo]

63. Not used their suffering

for political gain.

[jakeXT]

19. I think their ppp with Chelsea Clinton changed a pipe on Friday

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2016/03/06/chelsea-clinton-flint-mayor-announce-new-jobs-program/81403878/

[kgnu_fan]

5. kick

[Octafish]

11. It's OK. She's on a roll. (NT)

[Buzz Clik]

15. And the fact that Moore's data is wrong is irrelevant.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. His data is not wrong, you are just running a narrative. Moore knows more about Flint than any of us

In fact if the US had listened to Mike a couple decades ago when he warned us about Flint we'd not have a bunch of kids with lead poisoning today.....

[Buzz Clik]

28. See post #3

[Octafish]

26. Like when Hillary said the Detroit bailout totalled $350 Billion?

It was about $79 Billion, $70 Billion repaid, meaning cost to taxpayers of $9 Billion.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/12/30/auto-bailout-tarp-gm-chrysler/21061251/

[avaistheone1]

34. Thank you Octafish. Great catch as usual.

I thought Hillary's figure was massively inflated...and so it is!!

When Hillary lies we can at least count on her to tell a big one.

[PatrynXX]

18. well having watched Sicko

he'd be no fan of HRC. True the documentary was fucked up doing the thing on Cuba but other than that HRC is tied to the drug industry and the oil Industry and Wall Street etc.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Moore's first film Roger and Me was released in 1989 and it is all about the plight of Flint.

27 years and a few administrations have gone by without much actual action taken on the part of Flint. Today many carry on as if the water issue was the first sign of trouble in Flint, oh my goodness we must take action!

Bill Clinton did NAFTA, which made things worse in Flint. I do not recall any Clinton efforts for Flint in office nor via the Foundation in the 27 years between Roger and Me and the water issues. It really was like no one in power had seen that film or even heard of Flint Michigan.

I visited Flint in 2004. Because of Moore. And I'm just some guy.

[avaistheone1]

29. Preach it!!!

[BainsBane]

36. I don't recall Hillary claiming the autobailout was directed toward Flint

in particular. American jobs were saved, many of them in Michigan and Ohio.

[pinebox]

40. Did you NOT read what MM said?

How is it jobs were saved when Flint used to have 80,000 jobs and now it's 5000.

[BainsBane]

41. Let's see

1) Flint is not the only city where auto jobs exist. That jobs declined there does not mean they declined throughout the industry.
2) There may well be other factors leading to the decline of jobs, like poison water.

But I understand you prefer there no longer be an American auto industry. Let Bernie make that point in Michigan and Ohio.

We'll file manufacturing under the industries that are evil. Oh, except for guns and MIC manufacturers. Those are good.

[pinebox]

45. LMFAO

But I understand you prefer there no longer be an American auto industry. Let Bernie make that point in Michigan and Ohio.

Bro do you even "Nailhead"? No, I doubt you'll get the reference lol
Where have I mentioned that I wish there wasn't an auto industry? Can you please show us where I said that? We'll wait. I imagine that the time you finally produce something, the second coming of the dinosaurs will have come and gone.

If you care to look at the data http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/20582 which you should, you'll see that MI has lost more jobs than most states. Facts matter.

[dchill]

48. Facts don't matter to HRC or her acolytes.

[Bad Dog]

38. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are both charaters played by Fred Savage.

[Uncle Joe]

47. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, pinebox.

[dchill]

49. K&R.

[AzDar]

52. Do her supporters not even *care* that she lies and distorts as she does? I find it unconscionable.

[vintx]

58. I hope the voters there are paying attention

And not just swallowing the Clinton camp's lies

[Enthusiast]

60. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

[pacalo]

64. K&R.