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Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 10:36 AM Mar 2016

Hillary Clinton's Internet Supporters Desperately Want This Campaign to be about Sexism

Considering the renewed calls that Bernie supporters are sexist, I thought it was a good time to address it.

If any of us see sexist or personal attacks against any democratic candidate, it needs to be denounced immediately.
Sexist and personal attacks are unrepresentative of who we are. At the same time, it is not a personal attack to cite facts. Speaking of which... lets delve into some.

1. Among female voters under the age of 45, Bernie Sanders holds a significant lead in the polls.
2. He’s received far more donations from females than Hillary Clinton.
3. Iowa showed that he won handily in the under-45 category, regardless of gender.

As it happens, there is absolutely a gap in support when it comes to Sanders and Clinton. But it’s not a gender gap—it’s an age gap. The exit polls in Iowa would have been stunning for the sharp contrast they painted between young and old voters, if that divide hadn’t already been reflected in just about every national poll that’s come out in the past two months. Sanders won the 17-29 youth demographic in a rout with 84 percent support, and though the margin was smaller in the 30-44 range, he still trounced Clinton 58 percent to 37 percent. Climb higher, though, and the situation changes drastically. Among voters 45-63, Clinton won 58-35 percent, and for 65 and older, Bernie was clobbered 69-26.
It’s simple math: Older people vote for Clinton, younger people vote for Sanders. I saw it at the precinct I observed Monday night, and the stats back it up.

In terms of the primary process, any sane candidate would much rather be in Clinton’s shoes—older voters are reliable, and the young are famously fickle. But when it comes to the Internet, youth abounds, and the overwhelming preference for Sanders in that domain is starting to anger Clinton’s small but devoted band of young supporters. Internet politics have a definite progressive slant—witness the thriving Sanders Reddit page, with 170,000 supporters and over a million dollars raised, compared to Clinton’s anemic answer —and it has quickly become clear to the Clinton devotees that comparing the two candidates on policy always ends poorly for their preferred candidate. Without getting into issues of honesty and authenticity, the fact is that Sanders is a far more progressive politician. In our noisy little online kingdom, that plays well.

The strategy of Clinton supporters had to shift, and the solution was obvious: Avoid policy, and make the campaign about sexism. It wouldn’t be much of a stretch. In fact, they simply had to reprise the old tactics from 2008, when “gender bias” was one of the most reliable arrows in Clinton’s quiver, and Obama supporters fretted about losing the female vote because of perceived abuse toward Clinton’s backers. It’s the same today, and it started with the “Bernie Bro” phenomenon—a fabricated demographic supposedly chock-full of misogynistic dudes whose support for Bernie is less about policy and more about keeping a hated female out of office.

The entire concept of a vast sexist conspiracy operating from the political left is ridiculous, and has been effectively debunked by Glenn Greenwald and Sam Kriss at Vice, but it’s worth looking at a specific example of its origins to examine the absurd, dishonest way it has gathered steam. I’ll take you step by step, with this post as a guide.


There's lots more at the link... including the step by step dismantling of the misogynistic dudes for Bernie myth. I also recommend viewing the comments as they're also interesting reading.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/02/hillary-clintons-internet-supporters-desperately-w.html

But let's not stop there. A single article is rarely accepted as proof enough... even though Paste boasts 5.6 million unique visitors/month... which, to put into perspective, DailyKos, a mainstream liberal blog, averages 3 million unique visitors/month.

Let's see what Glenn Greenwald and Sam Kriss have to say:

First, here's Glenn with: "The “Bernie Bros” Narrative: a Cheap Campaign Tactic Masquerading as Journalism and Social Activism"

The concoction of the “Bernie Bro” narrative by pro-Clinton journalists has been a potent political tactic — and a journalistic disgrace. It’s intended to imply two equally false claims: (1) a refusal to march enthusiastically behind the Wall Street-enriched, multiple-war-advocating, despot-embracing Hillary Clinton is explainable not by ideology or political conviction, but largely if not exclusively by sexism: demonstrated by the fact that men, not women, support Sanders (his supporters are “bros”); and (2) Sanders supporters are uniquely abusive and misogynistic in their online behavior. Needless to say, a crucial tactical prong of this innuendo is that any attempt to refute it is itself proof of insensitivity to sexism if not sexism itself (as the accusatory reactions to this article will instantly illustrate).

It’s become such an all-purpose, handy pro-Clinton smear that even consummate, actual “bros” for whom the term was originally coined — straight guys who act with entitlement and aggression, such as Paul Krugman — are now reflexively (and unironically) applying it to anyone who speaks ill of Hillary Clinton, even when they know nothing else about the people they’re smearing, including their gender, age, or sexual orientation. Thus, a male policy analyst who criticized Sanders’ health care plan “is getting the Bernie Bro treatment,” sneered Krugman. Unfortunately for the New York Times Bro, that analyst, Charles Gaba, said in response that he’s “really not comfortable with referring to die-hard Bernie Sanders supporters as ‘Bernie Bros'” because it “implies that only college-age men support Sen. Sanders, which obviously isn’t the case.”

It is indeed “obviously not the case.” There are literally millions of women who support Sanders over Clinton. A new Iowa poll yesterday shows Sanders with a 15-point lead over Clinton among women under 45, while one-third of Iowa women over 45 support him. A USA Today/Rock the Vote poll from two weeks ago found Sanders nationally “with a 19-point lead over front-runner Hillary Clinton, 50 percent to 31 percent, among Democratic and independent women ages 18 to 34.” One has to be willing to belittle the views and erase the existence of a huge number of American women to wield this “Bernie Bro” smear.

But truth doesn’t matter here — at all. Instead, the goal is to inherently delegitimize all critics of Hillary Clinton by accusing them of, or at least associating them with, sexism, thus distracting attention away from Clinton’s policy views, funding, and political history and directing it toward the online behavior of anonymous, random, isolated people on the internet claiming to be Sanders supporters. It’s an effective weapon when wielded by Clinton operatives. But, given its blatant falsity, it has zero place in anything purporting to be “journalism.”


https://theintercept.com/2016/01/31/the-bernie-bros-narrative-a-cheap-false-campaign-tactic-masquerading-as-journalism-and-social-activism/

Lastly there this from Sam: Bernie Bros and Momentum Bullies: How the Powerful Use Internet Trolls to Play the Victim

Every tribe needs its mythical figures, big striding symbols that can gather together the general mess of humanity into a simple archetype. Lately, Western society has developed a new one: the Bernie Bro. He is a young male whose chief interests are partying, knocking back some brews, hating women, and, for some reason, tepid socialist politics. He supports Bernie Sanders in his race for the Democratic nomination in the US presidential election, because the Bernie Bro does not want Hillary Clinton, a woman, to take power. He demonstrates this support by being crude and abusive to Clinton supporters online, pumped up by male self-righteousness, socialist insensitivity, internet anonymity, and creatine. He is thoughtless, vicious, and stupid. He also doesn't really exist, but that's not really any problem for a myth.

It certainly hasn't stopped him being the subject of a recent flurry of anthropological studies: TIME magazine warns against the "smug-sounding Sanders supporters", Mashable calls them "the most obnoxious people on the internet", and even the BBC reports that "Bernie Sanders supporters get a bad reputation online." As has been pointed out, there's scant evidence for any of this, but it doesn't matter – if you can successfully collapse thousands of people into some hideous metonym, it's impossible to prove that this fictional character did or didn't do anything.

This isn't to say that some Sanders supporters haven't been occasionally vitriolic. But if you're on the internet and you say anything that anyone might plausibly disagree with, you will immediately find yourself encountering dozens of implausibly angry single men looking to talk to someone new. (Look out for them below the line on this article!) There is no cause so peaceful and progressive and self-evidently justified that it won't have, scurrying behind it in the churned-up mud of the social field, thousands of fanatical cockroaches. The idea that there's a concerted campaign of abuse coming from the political left has a lot to do with selective focus: you're much less likely to see the abuse when it's coming from your own side. The Bernie Bro became a phenomenon because opinion writers in establishment publications tend to support Clinton, and because these people labour under the bizarre and false impression that their audiences want to read about how unpleasant other people were on Twitter.

There's no better example of this than The Sunday Times's Camilla Long, who voiced a fairly thoughtless and insensitive opinion on the death of David Bowie and then managed to spin the inevitable backlash into a long blubbery column on the cruelty of crowds. For reasons that still don't entirely make sense, it's people like this who get to shape the general discourse. They're famous, so when they're rude to people it's just a case of poor judgment, while when other people are rude back, it's violence on the part of an angry, faceless, idiot mob, and everyone needs to know about it.


http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/sam-kris-bernie-bros-internet-abuse-820

In short? Hillary supporters should focus less on deflection and more on actual defense of their candidate.
And if they're still not convinced... they should probably read this... or at least the last few sentences of it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280142453
120 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Hillary Clinton's Internet Supporters Desperately Want This Campaign to be about Sexism (Original Post) Bubzer Mar 2016 OP
very good post Merryland Mar 2016 #1
I agree. All the "older women" I know are distinctly pro Bernie. Bubzer Mar 2016 #2
I'm in my 70's and definitely pro Bernie. Duval Mar 2016 #36
Awesome! Bubzer Mar 2016 #79
Yes, "very good" except for EVERYTHING. :) We're not "desperate," Hortensis Mar 2016 #55
The word desperate was part of a title, but I wont shy away from it. I will merely agree to disagree Bubzer Mar 2016 #82
And yet here you are, partisan as hell. Why not Hortensis Mar 2016 #83
I'm not here pretending to be nuetral. Bubzer Mar 2016 #84
About 95% of the ones I know are pro Bernie hobbit709 Mar 2016 #5
Two of my closest friends are women in their fifties. bvf Mar 2016 #13
My mom will be 80 this year, and is Bernie all the way. nt PunkinPi Mar 2016 #17
Female, in my 80s and very much for Bernie Thirties Child Mar 2016 #93
Can somebody link me to this brick thing they're constantly going on about VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #3
Thanks for connecting the term with the act! I forgot all about that word: gaslighting. Bubzer Mar 2016 #6
Exactly what it is. VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #7
Yep, that's the correct term. haikugal Mar 2016 #77
I think this is where that meme began Electric Monk Mar 2016 #68
Yeah, I got linked here earlier. VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #70
Nothing else has worked so bring this out again. hobbit709 Mar 2016 #4
Nothing will make people feel comfortable about immediately denouncing any sexism kcr Mar 2016 #8
That's a non-sequiter and very disingenuous. Phony accounts of sexism is itself sexism. Bubzer Mar 2016 #11
Or. You just don't agree that it's sexist. Which is more likely? kcr Mar 2016 #15
Wait, let me get this straight... Bubzer Mar 2016 #19
Not in the context of who's right on the internet. No. kcr Mar 2016 #21
And we come to the heart of it. Bubzer Mar 2016 #25
Okay, then kcr Mar 2016 #26
Selective Sexism snort Mar 2016 #41
Right! Add a dollop of gaslighting and mix vigorously. Bubzer Mar 2016 #43
To me there are few things that are lower than... tex-wyo-dem Mar 2016 #29
It won't shock you to learn I don't agree, I'm sure. kcr Mar 2016 #30
We've already been around the antisemitism bush several times here in GD-P Fumesucker Mar 2016 #59
Yep. I wonder if the person I was responding thought it was low to complain about that? kcr Mar 2016 #62
+about a million! BlueMTexpat Mar 2016 #32
Thanks! kcr Mar 2016 #56
Their lies have disgusted decent Americans to the point where Zorra Mar 2016 #9
It's interesting that she BlueMTexpat Mar 2016 #33
The actual online misogynists are aligned with the Tea Party starroute Mar 2016 #10
Exactly right! The few who manage to get onto this site, dont stay long either... thank you MIRT!!!! Bubzer Mar 2016 #14
I remember a bunch of people here claiming an economic fix would be beat to preserve equal rights- bettyellen Mar 2016 #81
That seems dumb but it isn't misygyny starroute Mar 2016 #88
That dog just ain't gonna hunt. Fuddnik Mar 2016 #12
K&R. bvf Mar 2016 #16
Hillary wants to fight for all those low income women. jalan48 Mar 2016 #18
I've Said It Before SDJay Mar 2016 #20
Sexism might be a bigger issue with an older demographic Victor_c3 Mar 2016 #22
The meme is quite noticable . TheFarS1de Mar 2016 #23
I'm a woman way over 45 and I support Bernie! I can't stand CharlotteVale Mar 2016 #24
As an older female Bernie supporter myself, the media keeps forgetting the other point... Bernieftw2016 Mar 2016 #27
They conveniently forget it, since it doesn't fit the preconceived narrative. Betty Karlson Mar 2016 #39
Not at all, just noticing an increasingly sexist tone here. Remember, it is possible to support anotherproletariat Mar 2016 #28
The American people were finally ready for a female president, but reject establishment candidates. JFKDem62 Mar 2016 #31
Right. Because telling a woman to vaginally disembowel herself with a brick is not sexist. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #34
That's so low! kcr Mar 2016 #35
Link, please? ljm2002 Mar 2016 #40
It still sits in GDP, with 136 recs. A DU jury upheld the vile language 4-3. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #45
Thank you... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #46
Why use that phrase at all? It is not just "crude," it's misogynistic. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #47
And this is exactly my point... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #63
Sexism isn't ever expressed metaphorically? kcr Mar 2016 #65
Nice attempt to move the goal posts... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #66
So, then. What do you think the poster meant, metaphorically speaking? kcr Mar 2016 #71
No, that language is used at women and it is misogynistic. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #67
She laughed at the death of someone... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #69
Correct - I've said "fuck him with a rusty fork" (or similar items) PLENTY of times about disgusting kath Mar 2016 #80
Hillary did not call for Gaddafi to die by bayonet. His own troops (rebels) stabbed and shot him. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #86
OFFS... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #87
Yes, it is common misogynistic hate speech aimed at women. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #89
Wait a minute. You were talking about Quaddafi? kcr Mar 2016 #95
In post #63, upthread, I said: ljm2002 Mar 2016 #98
I was talking about post 69 kcr Mar 2016 #100
Shame on you. ljm2002 Mar 2016 #102
I'm a lot like Bernie? Thanks! kcr Mar 2016 #104
Twisted is twisted... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #105
Twisted is twisted kcr Mar 2016 #106
Whoa that is FUCKED UP vintx Mar 2016 #50
I entered the description of a BernieBro into my supercomputer and it spit out this image: snort Mar 2016 #37
LOL nt m-lekktor Mar 2016 #54
!!! Waiting For Everyman Mar 2016 #75
Excellent analysis, I doubt it will penetrate the Hilly-bubble though. Betty Karlson Mar 2016 #38
so you might say it's a "Single White Female" role? MisterP Mar 2016 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author liberalnarb Mar 2016 #44
That poster was protesting a DUer telling a woman to vaginally impale herself on a brick. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #49
That's repulsive. Did the brick DUer get banned? liberalnarb Mar 2016 #58
No. It survived a alert and sits in GDP with 137 recs. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #60
Well, I replied to the OP, not that it makes a difference. liberalnarb Mar 2016 #96
No. I suggest reading their whole post. Lizzie Poppet Mar 2016 #64
Not only not banned, but over 150 recs for the post. kcr Mar 2016 #73
Jesus. liberalnarb Mar 2016 #74
...proving that she has nothing positive and real, to run on. Ferd Berfel Mar 2016 #48
Hillary is the only candidate out there offering real plans. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #52
if you call these plans Ferd Berfel Mar 2016 #53
Your silly graphic does not list her plans. Her plans are on hillaryclinton.com. SunSeeker Mar 2016 #57
There is plenty of sexism and misogyny on the left. That brick comment vintx Mar 2016 #51
go f yourself is not sexist. It is said by both sexes to both sexes. I'm not sure why that poster liberal_at_heart Mar 2016 #76
Really? You don't know why they "added the brick part"? SunSeeker Mar 2016 #91
Yep. It brings out the hypersensitivity. backscatter712 Mar 2016 #61
It's the same thing we've been seeing here for years Waiting For Everyman Mar 2016 #72
no sexism involved oldandhappy Mar 2016 #78
GG is a libertarian who cheered when the Ds lost the 2010 mid-terms. His view is that struggle4progress Mar 2016 #85
True. GG is no friend of Democrats. nt SunSeeker Mar 2016 #90
That doesn't delegitmize his analysis of the situation. Not by a mile. Bubzer Mar 2016 #94
His "analysis" is not impartial: he intends it to have the consequences I indicated struggle4progress Mar 2016 #99
look, unless the fairness doctrine has been re instituted when I wasn't looking, no one's impartial Bubzer Mar 2016 #101
It already is. Namely, only someone who shares my plumbing... lumberjack_jeff Mar 2016 #92
So, because it's merely coincidence that Bernie just so happens to share yours? kcr Mar 2016 #97
I have yet to meet anyone who says they're voting for Bernie because he has a penis. Bubzer Mar 2016 #107
Well of course not. Why would they? kcr Mar 2016 #108
If anyone were voting for a man BECAUSE he was a man? Hell yes it'd be sexist. Bubzer Mar 2016 #109
Okay kcr Mar 2016 #110
My state has 2 women senators. Men have run against them. Rilgin Mar 2016 #112
Am I just imagining we've only ever had men as presidents, then? kcr Mar 2016 #114
Presidency is not the only election. Your claim is about gender and running for election. Rilgin Mar 2016 #118
No. It's not. n/t kcr Mar 2016 #119
So, the last person who should be pointing at women and claim they're sexist for that kcr Mar 2016 #111
That's quite the double standard you're lugging around. Bubzer Mar 2016 #113
How is it a double standard? kcr Mar 2016 #115
So your going to defelct and not answer the hard question? Typical. I expect no less. Bubzer Mar 2016 #116
I'm not deflecting. I'm sticking to the point of this subthread. kcr Mar 2016 #117
When you desperately have nothing, accuse them of sexism. Ivan Kaputski Mar 2016 #103
Second Wave Vs. Third Wave Feminism DrFunkenstein Mar 2016 #120

Merryland

(1,134 posts)
1. very good post
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 10:41 AM
Mar 2016

I do wonder how accurate the polls are on "older women" though - I have trouble believing that my generation of baby boomer women is as pro-Hillary as the polls seem to reflect.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
55. Yes, "very good" except for EVERYTHING. :) We're not "desperate,"
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:29 PM
Mar 2016

ridiculous word coming from a BSer. More of that projection.

Sexism is a very important issue. After all half of all Americans of every voting group are women. But to want it to be ALL about it?

We have a huge job ahead of us. Backwards, neglectful, wealth-serving GOP policies have seriously damaged every sector of our nation except the billionaire class they helped create. That's what this election is about. Fixing our nation.

It's not about Bernie. Not Hillary either, btw, strange as that concept undoubtedly is. None of this is about them for us liberals. We don't personality cults or look for a great leader to...lead us. That, btw, is why the Democratic Party has accomplished so much good for our nation and is still great despite the battering we took over the last 35 years. It's about what is good and right for our nation.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
82. The word desperate was part of a title, but I wont shy away from it. I will merely agree to disagree
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 05:41 PM
Mar 2016

I do agree sexism is an important issue... but it's not the most important issue. That would be pushing for equality... which includes so much more than just sexism alone. And Hillary has proven time and again, she's not interested in equality.

If she were, she'd be denouncing Debbie Wasserman Shultz for pushing to deregulate both the campaign contribution restrictions, and the payday-loan regulations. But she's not. Instead, she spent numerous years indebting herself to that billionaire class you've cited and casting aspersions on those who don't toe her company line. Even better, she's surrounded herself with less than progressive aids.

You say it's not about Bernie or Hillary... but you're only half right. It's about what they stand for. Bernie represents a break away from entrenched monied interests... the ones that have been around for so long, and bought so many politicians that it's almost impossible to get anything achieved in DC. Hillary cant be that. She is part of that establishment. She's been working with corporations, foreign and domestic, for years. She's STILL taking corporate dollars... including from the freaking prison industry!

I agree that it's ultimately what's best for our country that matters... I don't see the divisive attacks against Bernie supporters as being in line with that... and I also don't agree Hillary has the chops to be able to break through the entrenched monied interests to do anything more than maintain the status quo... which is allocation of the nations ills to the poor, and redistribution of wealth and power to the rich.

Without divesting her campaign of the immense negativity she's spread, Hillary wont gain the support of those she keeps pushing away. And without them, she can never win the general election.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
83. And yet here you are, partisan as hell. Why not
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 05:47 PM
Mar 2016

see if you can go a week talking about principles and issues without badmouthing anyone? I didn't do a word count, but please note that positives are almost nonexistent, even Bernie is almost nonexistent, but twisted-fact attacks on Hillary fill your post.

Here's a start, not positive but at least it relates to issues: I do agree sexism is an important issue... but it's not the most important issue. That would be pushing for equality... which includes so much more than just sexism alone. It's about what they stand for. I agree that it's ultimately what's best for our country... the entrenched monied interests ... allocation of the nations ills to the poor, and redistribution of wealth and power to the rich.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
84. I'm not here pretending to be nuetral.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:16 PM
Mar 2016

I gave up on getting anything approaching civility from Hillary supporters maybe a month ago, and promptly put the person who pushed me to that point on ignore. I've watched her supporters COMPLETELY ignore legitimate issues about her time and time and time again... and then go into hyper-offended mode over non issues or miner offences. Everyday I see something offensive get posted by a Hillary supporter. EVERY DAY! Ad-hominem bullshit. And you want suggest to me that I should be more positive? Right.

You and your fellow Clinton supporters don't acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your narrative as being an issue... so, no, I wont take your unsolicited advice.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
13. Two of my closest friends are women in their fifties.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:09 AM
Mar 2016

Their comparative backgrounds and experience are wildly different. Neither has a kind word to say about Clinton.

Anecdotal, certainly, but I agree with you 100%.

Thirties Child

(543 posts)
93. Female, in my 80s and very much for Bernie
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:58 PM
Mar 2016

As are my friends, mostly war babies in their 70s.

I live in a red, red state, which means my vote won't matter in the GE. I'm seriously considering sitting out the GE if HRC is the candidate. I'm tired of holding my nose when I vote.

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
3. Can somebody link me to this brick thing they're constantly going on about
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 10:50 AM
Mar 2016

Honestly, I've seen nothing of the kind, and other than that, their gasps and fibrillations remind me of my abusive ex-fiancée. Gaslighting to the maximum.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
6. Thanks for connecting the term with the act! I forgot all about that word: gaslighting.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 10:54 AM
Mar 2016

That's exactly what's going!

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
70. Yeah, I got linked here earlier.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:20 PM
Mar 2016

I agree with everything up until the brick comment, and that's what lost me. Do I want her to vanish from the face of politics, yes; but that's just... Nah, man.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
8. Nothing will make people feel comfortable about immediately denouncing any sexism
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:00 AM
Mar 2016

more than expressing the idea that some people just want a campaign to be about sexism. Now anyone who sees sexism will be sure to bring it right up. They won't worry that anyone will attack them. Nope. It's nice and inclusive here.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
11. That's a non-sequiter and very disingenuous. Phony accounts of sexism is itself sexism.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:07 AM
Mar 2016

So, in effect, you're saying that legitimate refutation of sexism will prevent others from addressing issues of sexism? No, sorry, I don't buy that absurdity.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
15. Or. You just don't agree that it's sexist. Which is more likely?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:12 AM
Mar 2016

It's as if some people think everything is equal and sexism doesn't exist and what is feminism even for anymore. Are you one of those people? If not, and I would hope not, then why do you care if a claim is actually sexist or not? You may be right. You may not be. Just chalk it up to a disagreement and move on. It's not like there's some Ministry of Sexism that handles these affairs and proclaims an official judgment somewhere, right? Where you can consult some archives and and point at it and say, see!? There's precedence! I'm right! Not sexism! Aha!!!!

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
19. Wait, let me get this straight...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:29 AM
Mar 2016

"why do you care if a claim is actually sexist or not?" Are you suggesting you don't care?

kcr

(15,315 posts)
21. Not in the context of who's right on the internet. No.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:40 AM
Mar 2016

I don't particularly want to make DU the place where determining exactly what should be considered sexist and what isn't just because the primary wars happened and someone had to prop up their candidate and make the bar just so in order for that to happen.

If someone thinks something is sexist, they think something is sexist. That's good enough. Acknowledging that the concept of sexism exists and that it's real, and inequality is real is what is important. Denouncing someone for claiming something is sexist misses the point. Even if you don't think that particular thing is sexist, sexism still exists. More importantly, you may actually be wrong. You may be missing a contextual clue that makes it sexist. Because you're missing it, you don't realize it's there, so it doesn't seem sexist to you. But it is.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
25. And we come to the heart of it.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:50 AM
Mar 2016

"Denouncing someone for claiming something is sexist misses the point" I don't accept your attempt to marginalize the sexism inherent in phony claims of sexism. I equally reject your gaslighting attempt.

In fact, you should really apply your comment to yourself.

tex-wyo-dem

(3,190 posts)
29. To me there are few things that are lower than...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 12:09 PM
Mar 2016

Using ones own, or someone you support's own, "uniqueness" as a wedge to attack others as being intensitive. What I mean as "uniqueness" for, in this case, a presidential candidate are being a woman, being a minority, practicing a different religion from Christianity (or no religion at all), etc.

Hillary supporters using sexism as a go-to attack/canard on Bernie supporters who criticize their candidate is like if Bernie supporters called anyone who criticizes Sanders as being anti-Semitic.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
30. It won't shock you to learn I don't agree, I'm sure.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 12:13 PM
Mar 2016

I'm not sure why that's so low. I can only think of one reason and that's ascribing a motive to such things. And one would only see a motive in it if they thought there were no problems to begin with. And since there are, well Anti-semitism exists. So does sexism. Bernie would be perfectly within his rights to call out the anti-semitism that is out there. I not only would have no problem with it, I'd fully support him all the way.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
59. We've already been around the antisemitism bush several times here in GD-P
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:56 PM
Mar 2016

Notably with the Diane Rehm incident where she flat out stated on the air that Bernie had dual citizenship with Israel, a number of DUers defended that quite hard despite it being textbook antisemitism.

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/10/diane_rehms_massive_bernie_sanders_oops_npr_host_falls_for_anti_semitic_israeli_citizenship_hoax/

Diane Rehm’s massive Bernie Sanders “oops”: NPR host falls for anti-Semitic Israeli citizenship hoax

kcr

(15,315 posts)
62. Yep. I wonder if the person I was responding thought it was low to complain about that?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:00 PM
Mar 2016

I remember that. Anyone who defended that was clearly defending anti-semitism.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
56. Thanks!
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:29 PM
Mar 2016

It sure does. They can pat themselves on the back all the want and claim we're the ones gaslighting. That strikes me as so odd. It would seem trying to convince people that talking about Hillary's cackling and telling her to fuck herself with a brick isn't sexist would be a tad more gaslighty.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
9. Their lies have disgusted decent Americans to the point where
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:05 AM
Mar 2016

most will never even consider voting for Hillary Clinton.

People who are not honest with themselves, or with others, have tunnel vision, and believe that everyone is just as dishonest as they are, and they can't understand how revolting their dishonesty is to decent people.

They don't realize that the entire rest of the world looks at them as sad, pitiful clowns.

BlueMTexpat

(15,366 posts)
33. It's interesting that she
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 12:23 PM
Mar 2016

leads all candidates in both parties then, isn't it? And by significant margins.

Just another "sad pitiful clown" here.

Or do you mean that the nearly 5 million Americans who have already cast votes for HRC and those of us who have not yet done so but will do so are not "decent" Americans?

starroute

(12,977 posts)
10. The actual online misogynists are aligned with the Tea Party
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:05 AM
Mar 2016

See, for example, the connections between GamerGate and unrepentant segregationist and Tea Party blogger Robert Stacy McCain.

This is what baffles me most about the "Bernie Bro" smear. To the extent that people like that do exist, they're on the extreme right of the GOP. Some of them do say crass things online about Hillary Clinton. But whoever thought it was a plausible narrative to blame people like that on Bernie Sanders?

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
14. Exactly right! The few who manage to get onto this site, dont stay long either... thank you MIRT!!!!
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:10 AM
Mar 2016
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
81. I remember a bunch of people here claiming an economic fix would be beat to preserve equal rights-
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 05:26 PM
Mar 2016

women would be able to FLY somewhere else to get an abortion, and black people who face discrimination from LEO? They will be able to afford lawyers after Bernie is president! SO STFU about social justice, because we'll be able to buy some!

starroute

(12,977 posts)
88. That seems dumb but it isn't misygyny
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:32 PM
Mar 2016

In fact, I find it hard to believe any DUers could be quite that stupid. Do they really think getting $15 an hour would enable someone to take a week off and buy a plane ticket to another state for an abortion? Or hire a lawyer to file suit against the police?

Economic equality is essential. In our society, money means freedom, it means power, it means respect, and it means security. But the point of all those things is to have a system where no one can get away with depriving others of their rights. It isn't a substitute for those rights.

Are you sure they weren't Republican trolls?

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
16. K&R.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:14 AM
Mar 2016
In short? Hillary supporters should focus less on deflection and more on actual defense of their candidate.


You see the problem here...

jalan48

(13,859 posts)
18. Hillary wants to fight for all those low income women.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:28 AM
Mar 2016

She wants to make sure those fast food workers are getting the exact same wages and benefits as their male counterparts.(they already do?) They should all be able to make $12 an hour! They should all be able to get shitty medical and paid leave benefits! It's not about our rigged economic system, it's about gender! Fall in line!

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
20. I've Said It Before
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:39 AM
Mar 2016

but my wife has achieved amazing things in a professional field that is dominated by the good ol' boys. As such, NOTHING makes her more insane than when a woman plays the sexism card when it's not warranted, especially when it's played proactively, ie "If you don't like this plan it's because you hate women."

That's exactly what she sees with some of the messaging from the HRC campaign - trying to paint SBS as a sexist and responding to criticisms with charges of sexism. She believes that this does as much if not more harm to efforts towards full gender equality because (a) it only makes the real sexist pigs feel as though they have a point and (b) it stains the perspective of people who see it towards thinking that sexism is something that's blown out of proportion.

Shame on anyone, anywhere, who is sexist. Shame on anyone, anywhere who tries to use this as a wedge issue to continue to climb the ladder of power. They're the same to me.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
22. Sexism might be a bigger issue with an older demographic
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:42 AM
Mar 2016

I'm not at all saying that sexism doesn't exist anymore (it most certainly does in a multitude of subtle and not so subtle ways) but I believe younger generations are more accepting of women in powerful positions.

If the choices before me were Elizabeth Warren and a mainstream corporatist democrat like Bill Clinton instead of Bernie and Hillary I wouldn't hesitate to throw my support behind Elizabeth Warren. I'm totally behind Sanders because of his politics, not because he has a penis. I'm willing to bet that is the case with most Bernie supporters.

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
23. The meme is quite noticable .
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:42 AM
Mar 2016

Unfortunately for them I vote on policy , gender is a non issue for me .

CharlotteVale

(2,717 posts)
24. I'm a woman way over 45 and I support Bernie! I can't stand
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:49 AM
Mar 2016

the way Hillary plays the woman card. I find it cynical, insulting, phoney, and there just are no words for how disingenuous it is.

Bernieftw2016

(3 posts)
27. As an older female Bernie supporter myself, the media keeps forgetting the other point...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:59 AM
Mar 2016

I am 100% behind Bernie. What really bothers me behind the sexism charges is that many of us older progressives (in addition to the younger Bernie supporters) begged Elizabeth Warren to run before Bernie decided to announce his candidacy. The media pundits & Hillary know this.


 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
39. They conveniently forget it, since it doesn't fit the preconceived narrative.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 01:24 PM
Mar 2016

(Which is that it is HER TURN! The power of Debbie commands you to cleanse yourself of any doubt!)

 

anotherproletariat

(1,446 posts)
28. Not at all, just noticing an increasingly sexist tone here. Remember, it is possible to support
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:59 AM
Mar 2016

your candidate without trashing another. You will look like much more of an adult if you do so.

JFKDem62

(383 posts)
31. The American people were finally ready for a female president, but reject establishment candidates.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 12:16 PM
Mar 2016

And the politics of destruction.

She just keeps missing her window of opportunity.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
35. That's so low!
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 12:35 PM
Mar 2016

How can you stoop to such a level! Playing the woman card

You should have consulted the sexism/not sexism manual.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
40. Link, please?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 01:29 PM
Mar 2016

I for one would like to see the original quote that has caused all the fuss.

I suspect it was obviously meant metaphorically -- like telling someone to "stick it where the sun don't shine". But without seeing the actual quote, it's hard to say.

So please, provide a link so we can all get up to speed on this matter.

Assuming you have any interest in that, of course.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
46. Thank you...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 02:41 PM
Mar 2016

...I had actually seen the post but must not have read all the way to the end because I did miss that crude turn of phrase.

Not sure how I would have voted on that one. It's definitely borderline. I can see objecting to the crudeness of it; but it seems many Hillary supporters want to interpret it literally and then describe graphically what might happen if one did as suggested... which is really worse IMO, since anyone with a lick of sense knows it was not a literal suggestion.

Still too crude for my taste. Thanks for the link, and again, not sure how I missed it first time around.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
47. Why use that phrase at all? It is not just "crude," it's misogynistic.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:03 PM
Mar 2016

People use the phrase "go fuck yourself" universally, but tacking on the foreign object is reserved for women.

Have you ever heard someone tell a man to go fuck himself with a brick? Or any number of objects? I haven't. But I have heard it plenty towards women. 

It is not lost on women that some of the most vicious rapes of women involve impaling/disemboweling a woman with foreign objects (as a brick would certainly do). 

This is the imagery that sort of language conjures up: 

http://hinterlandgazette.com/2013/02/anene-booysen-south-african-teen-gangraped-disemboweled-laid-rest-bredasdorp.html 

https://heteroloco.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/india-gang-rape-victim-reportedly-disemboweled-in-attack/ 

Seriously, that post should have come with a trigger warning for rape victims. Instead, Hillary supporters were purposely lured to read that vile language with the misleading title of the post purporting to thank Hillary Clinton. It was an attack on Hillary, on her DU supporters, and all women.

But some Bernie supporters, like the OP, choose to deflect, by disingenuously claiming that the objections to that post stated people are sexist for supporting Bernie. No one had said that. The objections were to the vile sexist language used to attack Hillary.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
63. And this is exactly my point...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:02 PM
Mar 2016

...yes the language is crude but it is metaphoric. Yet you and those who want to play the "Hillary's a victim" card insist in imagining it in reality, and then bludgeoning the rest of us with how that would work IF IT WERE REAL, which IT IS NOT.

A quick search yields these examples of the phrase "Go fuck yourself with a ...":

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Go+fuck+yourself+with+a+rusty+screwdriver

How to say "go fuck yourself" but getting a better reaction out of the person and people around you. Unlike "go fuck yourself" Go fuck yourself with a screwdriver MUST be yelled as loudly as possible, even in a public place, no exceptions. This phrase may be used at any time, even when "go fuck yourself" normally wouldn't be used.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/go-fuck-yourself-with-a-cactus-disney/

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Go+Fuck+Yourself+with+a+cactus

Go Fuck Yourself with a cactus
Someone pisses you off, annoys you or is being a plain fucktard, Go Fuck yourself with a cactus

http://genius.com/1302713

(From an Allen Ginsberg poem)

America when will we end the human war?
Go fuck yourself with your atom bomb.

https://twitter.com/boogie2988/status/439207141526618112

Hey @Verizon, Please go fuck yourself with a rusty rake you greedy mother fuckers.


None of these is implicitly misogynistic, as they are typically used for both genders. I would assume the same about the OP we are discussing -- although as I have said, the language is more crude than I like.

Of course, Hillary is the one we have on tape laughing about Qadaffi's demise. Go read up on it -- now that was a case where the phrase "Go fuck yourself with a saber" could be used literally.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
65. Sexism isn't ever expressed metaphorically?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:06 PM
Mar 2016

I don't think so. Sexism is quite often expressed metaphorically. It doesn't have to be literal.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
66. Nice attempt to move the goal posts...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:08 PM
Mar 2016

...really, good try, but no cigar.

You are the one who is going all literal on us, and who wants us to consider what the vulgar term would really mean.

Well please re-read my last citation concerning Qadaffi and then get back to me. If Hillary can laugh about that, then she can certainly stand up to the phrase we are discussing.

Done here. TTFN

kcr

(15,315 posts)
71. So, then. What do you think the poster meant, metaphorically speaking?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:26 PM
Mar 2016

Roasting marshmallows? Reading a book? Chilling on the beach?

Hey, play along everyone! Give us your ideas for possible interpretations of Fuck Yourself with a Brick! Use your imagination! Fun for the whole family!

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
67. No, that language is used at women and it is misogynistic.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:11 PM
Mar 2016

Hillary saying "he (Gaddafi) died" is NOT the same as telling Gaddafi to "go fuck himself with a saber."

People say--and literally DO- that to women.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
69. She laughed at the death of someone...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:19 PM
Mar 2016

...who was LITERALLY "fucked with a saber".

Ane you've never heard anyone say to a man "Go fuck yourself with a (whatever)"????? Really? You must lead a sheltered life.

I am a woman of Hillary's age, and a feminist from way back (Berkeley in the late 60s & 70s). I do not appreciate it when people try to protect women as though we are such fragile flowers we cannot stand up to metaphors, even when the metaphors are crude and violent. It just buys into the "women are weak" type of thinking.

Hillary did not have a problem when a man was truly fucked with a saber. In fact she thought it was funny. Therefore I find all this hand-wringing over the "brick" statement that was directed (metaphorically) to her, to be just silly.

kath

(10,565 posts)
80. Correct - I've said "fuck him with a rusty fork" (or similar items) PLENTY of times about disgusting
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 05:19 PM
Mar 2016

Male figures. The "fuck herself with a brick" bit is in NO way a sexist statement. To claim that it is is utter fucking bullshit.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
86. Hillary did not call for Gaddafi to die by bayonet. His own troops (rebels) stabbed and shot him.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:23 PM
Mar 2016

No one called for Gaddafi to be "fucked by a saber." He was already hit by shrapnel to the head when rebel troops found him. They then stabbed him with a bayonet and shot him in the head. He on the other hand, called for an entire airplane load of innocents to plummet to their death over Lockerbie, Scotland, as well as routinely murdered his own people. I'm sorry Hillary isn't sufficiently sad about that monster's death as you would like.

It is really disheartening to see a "feminist from way back" defend that sort of misogynistic violent language toward a woman.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
87. OFFS...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:31 PM
Mar 2016

...I never said that she called for that to happen to him. What I SAID was that she LAUGHED about it when something like that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. When you have video evidence of something like that, it is IMO pretty hard to then turn around and say how horrible it is that someone lobbed a commonly-used violent metaphor in their direction.

Again: "Go fuck yourself with a (whatever)" is a very common expression in this day and age. I find it surprising that you do not know this. I've heard it (with various whatevers) in many contexts, and no, it is not misogynistic just because it is lobbed at a woman.

And again: It is crude language that I, myself, would not have used nor do I particularly like it. But really, the phrase just doesn't pack much of a punch to me (which, btw, is also a violent metaphor -- so should I be careful where I use that one too?).

Anyway, hand-wringing over a common metaphor when the person you are defending has laughed at a similar thing IN REAL LIFE is, how to put it, beyond ridiculous.

TTFN

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
89. Yes, it is common misogynistic hate speech aimed at women.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:36 PM
Mar 2016

You seem more offended by me pointing that out than at the language itself.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
95. Wait a minute. You were talking about Quaddafi?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 07:34 PM
Mar 2016

No wonder you left that little fact out. It wouldn't have sounded quite so effective as a Samesies! argument with his name in it.

I'm laughing at the "Go fuck yourself with a whatever" Yeah, it kind of does matter what you put in there, doesn't it? And whom you're addressing it to? People who make samesies arguments do it because they want to ignore the context. That pesky context is what mucks everything up.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
98. In post #63, upthread, I said:
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 07:43 PM
Mar 2016
Of course, Hillary is the one we have on tape laughing about Qadaffi's demise. Go read up on it -- now that was a case where the phrase "Go fuck yourself with a saber" could be used literally.


So how the hell do you say "No wonder you left that little fact out."

Anyway. No, Qadaffi was not a nice man, in fact he was awful. But guess what? I don't support the death penalty for anyone, no matter how evil the acts they have perpetrated; and I most certainly do not support summary execution in the street, including being violated with a bayonet.

The question is not whether Qadaffi deserved it, or whatever you are trying to imply here. The question is, how can someone be AMUSED at that summary execution? Her reaction to that really disturbed me. Apparently it did not have the same effect on you. But please don't make stupid accusations because you're too lazy to read the whole thread. Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo stick.

And no, it really does not matter "what you put there". That phrase has been around since forever, and I've heard many things put there, and none of it is sexist, because (a) it is commonly directed at either sex, and (b) it is not intended to be literal.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
100. I was talking about post 69
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 07:46 PM
Mar 2016

I didn't see post 63

Edit again. I didn't associate 69 with 63. I'm sorry. You were all over the place and I didn't connect the screwing with objects in 69 with that in 63. At any rate, I was talking about post 69. You did not mention his name in that post.

And anyway, if you take umbrage at anyone getting upset at attacking Hillary with "Fuck yourself with a brick" because she's not such a delicate flower, then I don't know why you feel the need to take up for Qaddafi. Someone who can orchestrate taking down a plane full of innocents could probably stick up for himself. At least before he died, that is. Don't you think? Odd priorities, there.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
102. Shame on you.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 08:33 PM
Mar 2016

You are a lot like your preferred candidate, twisting things like you are.

I refer specifically to your statement: "... then I don't know why you feel the need to take up for Qaddafi."

As I explained, he was awful, but I am still against summary execution in the street including being violated with a bayonet. Do you disagree with that?

Well whether you do or not is irrelevant. You are still LYING when you say that my statements are equivalent to taking up for Qaddafi, and you of course know that.

We were discussing a crude metaphor that was directed at Hillary, and posters here are trying to interpret it literally because then they can claim it is misogynistic. When I point out that Hillary laughed at a REAL, not METAPHORIC, incident of being fucked with a foreign object, well then of course the next thing you do is try and spin that as some sort of apologia for Qaddafi.

What utter twisted bullshit.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
104. I'm a lot like Bernie? Thanks!
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 10:57 PM
Mar 2016

When did I say your statements were the equivalent for taking up for Qaddafi? Did you or did you not claim Hillary laughed at him for being raped by a... I'm not going back to look at what it was specifically, but a machete or some big knife or something? My point was, why make an issue of that if you have no problem with DUers doing the same thing to Hillary because she's no delicate flower? That was my point.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
105. Twisted is twisted...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:04 PM
Mar 2016

...and you are twisted and then some.

"if you have no problem with DUers doing the same thing to Hillary"

Your grasp of reality is tenuous at best, if that is what you gleaned from my remarks.

TTFN

kcr

(15,315 posts)
106. Twisted is twisted
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:14 PM
Mar 2016

I don't see why a man who took down a plane full of people means no jokes about rape how dare she! But not Hillary. She's open season and anyone complaining about sexism just don't know what feminism is. Yeah, I'M the twisted one.

 

vintx

(1,748 posts)
50. Whoa that is FUCKED UP
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:16 PM
Mar 2016

Unbelievable that the admins don't step in and remove that kind of trash.

Glad the Bernie campaign has more sensitivity (just read that they removed an offensively named event that someone posted on their website).

Sick. That is a sick, twisted, hateful thing to say.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
38. Excellent analysis, I doubt it will penetrate the Hilly-bubble though.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 01:22 PM
Mar 2016

With 600+ members banned from that place, it has become too much of an echo-chamber for something so critical to be contemplated and debated over there.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
42. so you might say it's a "Single White Female" role?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 01:33 PM
Mar 2016

ram yourself into the table-corner, wait for roomie/BF to come home, and call the cops on 'em for battery

Response to Bubzer (Original post)

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
49. That poster was protesting a DUer telling a woman to vaginally impale herself on a brick.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:10 PM
Mar 2016

And then SheShe2 got a ridiculous 7-0 hide in her own thread in a protected group for posting a picture of Beyonce. That was her 5th hide and now she is on time out and cannot respond to you, making your call out of her that much more revolting.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
64. No. I suggest reading their whole post.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:03 PM
Mar 2016

That statement was completely unacceptable and should have been hidden. However, I think you should read the context:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1459520

kcr

(15,315 posts)
73. Not only not banned, but over 150 recs for the post.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:54 PM
Mar 2016

And lots of people in this thread defending it and telling people to get over it, it's just feminists overreacting. It's not sexism.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
52. Hillary is the only candidate out there offering real plans.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:20 PM
Mar 2016

The others offer pie in the sky and bluster.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
57. Your silly graphic does not list her plans. Her plans are on hillaryclinton.com.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:43 PM
Mar 2016

Just two examples:

College

The New College Compact: 
Costs won’t be a barrier, debt won’t hold you back.

Hillary will:

Ensure no student has to borrow to pay for tuition, books, or fees to attend a four-year public college in their state.

Enable Americans with existing student loan debt to refinance at current rates.

Hold colleges and universities accountable for controlling costs and making tuition affordable.

“We need to make a quality education affordable and available to everyone willing to work for it, without saddling them with decades of debt.”

HILLARY, AUGUST 10, 2015

 

Hillary has a vision for America in which education is attainable for all. The New College Compact will ensure that costs aren’t a barrier to college and that debt doesn’t hold Americans back.

Here’s what every student and family should expect under Hillary’s plan: 

Costs won't be a barrier.

Students should never have to borrow to pay for tuition, books, and fees to attend a four-year public college in their state under the New College Compact. Pell Grants are not included in the calculation of no-debt-tuition, so Pell recipients will be able to use their grants fully for living expenses. Students at community college will receive free tuition.

Students will do their part by contributing their earnings from working 10 hours a week.

Families will do their part by making an affordable and realistic family contribution.

The federal government will make a major investment in the New College Compact by providing grants to states that commit to these goals, and by cutting interest rates on loans.

States will have to step up and meet their obligation to invest in higher education by maintaining current levels of higher education funding and reinvesting over time.

Colleges and universities will be accountable for improving outcomes and controlling costs to ensure that tuition is affordable and that students who invest in college leave with a degree.

We will encourage innovators who design imaginative new ways of providing a valuable college education to students—while cracking down on abusive practices that burden students with debt without value.

A $25 billion fund will support HBCUs, HSIs, and other MSIs serving a high percentage of Pell Grant recipients to help lower the cost of attendance and improve student outcomes at low-cost, modest-endowment nonprofit private schools.


https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/college/

Climate change and clean energy

 Making America the world’s clean energy superpower and meeting the climate challenge. 

Hillary will:

Create good-paying jobs by making the United States the clean energy superpower of the 21st century.

Set national goals to have 500 million solar panels installed; generate enough renewable energy to power every home in America; cut energy waste in homes, schools, and hospitals by a third; and reduce American oil consumption by a third.

Lead the world in the fight against climate change by bringing greenhouse gas emissions to 30 percent below what they were in 2005 within the next decade—and keep going.

"I won’t let anyone take us backward, deny our economy the benefits of harnessing a clean energy future, or force our children to endure the catastrophe that would result from unchecked climate change."

HILLARY, NOVEMBER 29, 2015

Climate change is an urgent threat and a defining challenge of our time—and Hillary Clinton has a plan to tackle it by making America the world’s clean energy superpower, taking bold steps to slash carbon pollution at home and around the world, and ensuring no Americans are left out or left behind as we rapidly build a clean energy economy. 

2015 was the warmest year on record—and 15 of the 16 hottest years on record have come just since 2001. Already, American families are seeing the impacts of climate change with their own eyes, from the record drought in California to the frequently flooded streets of Miami and Annapolis. While climate deniers continue to ignore settled science because it does not suit their political agenda, and climate defeatists doubt America’s ability to meet this challenge, Hillary knows that America is fully up to the task. 

Already, U.S. carbon pollution has been cut to its lowest level since 1995. Wind power has expanded three fold and solar power 30-fold since 2008. But that’s not enough to tackle the climate challenge, meet America’s carbon pollution reduction goals, or to compete for the $13.5 trillion of global clean energy investment unlocked by the historic international climate change agreement reached in Paris. We can and must go further.

That’s why on day one, Hillary will set bold, national goals that will be achieved within ten years of her taking office:

Generate enough renewable energy to power every home in America, with half a billion solar panels installed by the end of Hillary’s first term.

Cut energy waste in American homes, schools, hospitals and offices by a third and make American manufacturing the cleanest and most efficient in the world.

Reduce American oil consumption by a thirdthrough cleaner fuels and more efficient cars, boilers, ships and trucks.


Hillary’s plan is designed to deliver on the pledge President Obama made at the Paris climate conference last December—without relying on climate deniers in Congress to pass new legislation. Her plan will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by up to 30 percent in 2025 relative to 2005 levels and put the country on a path to cut emissions more than 80 percent by 2050.Her approach will catalyze new investment and economic opportunity across the country, create hundreds of thousands of new jobs, reduce energy bills and save families money, make our country more secure, and protect our families and communities from pollution.

As president, Hillary will:

Defend, implement, and extend smart pollution and efficiency standards, including the Clean Power Plan, which will prevent 3,600 premature deaths and 90,000 asthma attacks annually, and efficiency standards for cars, trucks and appliances that are already reducing energy costs for American households and businesses by over $75 billion per year.

Launch a $60 billion Clean Energy Challenge to partner with states, cities, and rural communities and give them the tools and resources they need to go beyond federal standards in cutting carbon pollution and expanding clean energy. The Clean Energy Challenge will also help ensure all Americans share in the benefits of a clean energy economy by encouraging solar and energy efficiency investments in low-income communities.

Invest in clean energy infrastructure, innovation, manufacturing and workforce development to make the U.S. economy more competitive and create good paying jobs and careers. Hillary has a comprehensive plan for making existing energy infrastructure cleaner and safer, unlocking new investment, and forging a climate compact with Canada and Mexico to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and accelerate clean energy deployment across the continent.

Ensure safe and responsible energy production. As we transition to a clean energy economy, we must ensure that the fossil fuel production taking place today is safe and responsible and that areas too sensitive for energy production are taken off the table. Hillary knows there are some places where we should keep fossil fuels in the ground or under the ocean.

The Arctic is a unique treasure. Given what we know, it's not worth the risk of drilling. -H

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton)August 18, 2015


Reform leasing on public lands. As president, Hillary would reform fossil fuel leasing and significantly expand clean energy production on public lands, from wind in Wyoming to solar in Nevada.

End wasteful tax subsidies for oil and gas companies. Oil and gas companies have enjoyed billions in tax breaks for decades. Hillary would end those wasteful subsidies and invest in clean energy.

Cut methane emissions across the economy. Hillary would cut emissions of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, by 40-45 percent and put in place strong standards for reducing leaks from both new and existing sources.

Revitalize coal communities.Building a 21st century clean energy economy will create new jobs and industries, protect public health, and reduce carbon pollution. But we can’t ignore the impact this transition is already having on coal communities. Hillary’s $30 billion plan to revitalize coal communities will ensure coal miners, power plant operators, transportation workers, and their families get the respect they deserve and the benefits they have earned; invest in economic diversification and job creation; and make coal communities an engine of US economic growth in the 21st century, as they have been for generations.

"In spite of the strongest possible scientific consensus about what climate change means for our environment, economy, health, and future, there are still some who deny the facts. They’re intent on obstructing progress. We can’t let them win this fight. We have no choice. There is no Planet B."

HILLARY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2015


 

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/climate/


 

vintx

(1,748 posts)
51. There is plenty of sexism and misogyny on the left. That brick comment
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:17 PM
Mar 2016

that was posted in another forum being left alone by a jury kind of proves that

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
76. go f yourself is not sexist. It is said by both sexes to both sexes. I'm not sure why that poster
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 05:05 PM
Mar 2016

added the brick part but go f yourself is not in and of itself sexist. Now if he had added the b word or the c word that would be different.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
91. Really? You don't know why they "added the brick part"?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:40 PM
Mar 2016

Could it be because Hillary is a woman? 

Have you ever heard someone tell a man to go fuck himself with a brick? Or any number of objects? I haven't. But I have heard it plenty towards women. 

It is not lost on women that some of the most vicious rapes of women involve impaling/disemboweling a woman (as a brick would certainly do). 

This is the imagery that sort of language conjures up: 

http://hinterlandgazette.com/2013/02/anene-booysen-south-african-teen-gangraped-disemboweled-laid-rest-bredasdorp.html 

https://heteroloco.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/india-gang-rape-victim-reportedly-disemboweled-in-attack/ 

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
61. Yep. It brings out the hypersensitivity.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 03:59 PM
Mar 2016

Dare to say anything the slightest bit critical of Hillary's policies, or her conflicts of interest from her associations with Goldman Sachs, Walmart, big oil, etc., and all of the sudden, you're an EEEEEEEEVIL sexist BernieBro shitlord.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
72. It's the same thing we've been seeing here for years
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 04:49 PM
Mar 2016

from certain quarters. As we have learned here, it's obvious bull, and there's no need for anyone to soft-pedal their views for such nonsense. However, I will say this...

I'm a boomer woman, one of MANY who support Sanders, and every time I see myself referred to as a BernieBro, my regard for that side goes down a few more notches. Between that and the other stunts that have been pulled during this campaign, that stock has crashed at this point. There is nothing whatsoever that will ever redeem it.

In 66 years I have come to know that there are two kinds of people in this world, and that group is not my kind. It's just that simple They stand for everything I cannot (will not) stand. And putting a Dem label on that doesn't make it one bit better.

If not for tos, I'd use the term my grown daughter and I use at home, which is two words that both begin with "s" and the first one invokes the possessive form of an apocalyptic character.



This campaign isn't about anything so ephemeral as crap taunts of sexism. It's about betrayal. And I am not amused by that one little bit. Gambits like this are just a little bit more on top of the heaping pile.

oldandhappy

(6,719 posts)
78. no sexism involved
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 05:13 PM
Mar 2016

I am in my 70's and I am Bernie. I am voting against lies and smears. I began with Clinton, I admit. She chased me out in January with lies. The DNC was part of my leaving.

struggle4progress

(118,278 posts)
85. GG is a libertarian who cheered when the Ds lost the 2010 mid-terms. His view is that
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:21 PM
Mar 2016

disillusioned Ds and Rs can be roped into voting libertarian. So there's no reason to pay much attention to what he says

struggle4progress

(118,278 posts)
99. His "analysis" is not impartial: he intends it to have the consequences I indicated
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 07:46 PM
Mar 2016

That is, his goal is to move voters away from D or R loyalties and into voting for libertarian candidates

"Come! plunge into the deep muddy with GG!"

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
101. look, unless the fairness doctrine has been re instituted when I wasn't looking, no one's impartial
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 08:02 PM
Mar 2016

Everyone has their own motivations and reasons for the news/articles they provide. His analysis is still spot on. I also made a point of including 2 other articles by different authors... specifically because I knew someone would object to at least one of them.

Disliking his motivations still doesn't discredit the article.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
92. It already is. Namely, only someone who shares my plumbing...
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 06:46 PM
Mar 2016

Is suited to be president.

Once you strip away all the bullshit excuses for supporting Hillary, that's the only provably true one remaining.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
97. So, because it's merely coincidence that Bernie just so happens to share yours?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 07:43 PM
Mar 2016

You of course feel like you're free to admonish women for feeling entitled to vote for someone with "plumbing that matches theirs"?



That sure takes a lot of balls!

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
107. I have yet to meet anyone who says they're voting for Bernie because he has a penis.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:41 PM
Mar 2016

I cant say the same for those sexist women saying they're voting with their genitals.
http://aprildavila.com/i-am-voting-for-hillary-because-she-has-a-vagina/
http://www.damemagazine.com/2015/04/14/i-am-voting-my-vagina-hillary-clinton-president
And, your candidate is encouraging this sexist bullshit.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2016/02/hillary-clinton-women-revolution-sanders

This is disgustingly ugly sexism... full stop. Clinton isn't about equality... and this proves it unequivocally.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
108. Well of course not. Why would they?
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:46 PM
Mar 2016

All we've ever had are men presidents. That would make no sense.

Why are they sexist for voting for her because she has a vagina? Why is it sexist? Is it sexist for men to to vote for a man for president? No one ever thinks so. Why is that?

Bernie is encouraging the sexist bullshit? That's news to me.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
109. If anyone were voting for a man BECAUSE he was a man? Hell yes it'd be sexist.
Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:55 PM
Mar 2016

Just as it's extremely sexist to vote for a woman BECAUSE she's a woman.
The ONLY thing that should matter are the merits of the candidates. That's it.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
110. Okay
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 12:21 AM
Mar 2016

But follow me, here. Since there has always and forever been men presidents, don't you think it's a little too easy for men to claim they never vote for a man because he's a man? Because the presidents have always been men. So why would they? Is this hard to follow? What could I do to make this easier?

Rilgin

(787 posts)
112. My state has 2 women senators. Men have run against them.
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 03:40 AM
Mar 2016

Yet. In no election has their opponent ran saying his gender is a qualification. Pretending that this is the only election where a man has run against a woman is kind of silly. It is not even the first election where a woman has run for president.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
114. Am I just imagining we've only ever had men as presidents, then?
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 01:29 PM
Mar 2016

I really thought we'd only ever had men for presidents. I'm sorry I was mistaken. Someone, please help me out with a link where we had a woman for a president.

Rilgin

(787 posts)
118. Presidency is not the only election. Your claim is about gender and running for election.
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 03:42 PM
Mar 2016

When Dianne Feinstein ran for Senate as the FIRST WOMAN SENATOR in California, the man running against her did not run on his gender as a qualification. Nor did she. She ran as a competent politician.

You want to pretend that Hillary Clinton is the very first woman who has ran against a man in an election to prove a point that men have never had the opportunity before to run on their gender against a woman or a woman emphasizing her gender as an individual and overwhelming qualification.

I have been political for 30 years. I have never seen a candidate use gender as does Hillary Clinton. You just want to pretend that she is the very first woman running in an important election or who has in fact run a country.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
111. So, the last person who should be pointing at women and claim they're sexist for that
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 12:39 AM
Mar 2016

is a man. For a long time, the choices always matched their genitals. Always. When considering the qualifications, genital match for them was the default.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
113. That's quite the double standard you're lugging around.
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 01:25 PM
Mar 2016

So tell me, when a woman commits sexism, how exactly is a man supposed to deal with it hmmm?

I'm on pins and needles waiting for what I'm sure will be an enlightening reply.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
115. How is it a double standard?
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 01:31 PM
Mar 2016

When we've never had a woman for a president? Hmmmmmmmmm?

Pins and needles waiting for the explanation on this one.

Bubzer

(4,211 posts)
116. So your going to defelct and not answer the hard question? Typical. I expect no less.
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 01:42 PM
Mar 2016

No, I'm not going to answer your question when you refuse to answer mine. Since this argument is getting circular, and because you dared try to gaslight earlier, I'm done talking to you.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
117. I'm not deflecting. I'm sticking to the point of this subthread.
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 02:19 PM
Mar 2016

You were the one who threw in the question about men dealing with women's sexism, but somehow I'm deflecting? I think you just can't think of a way to point out how it's a double standard when we haven't had a woman president. I can see how that would be tough.

But let's deal with your question since maybe then you can then think on it. That's a pretty broad question, isn't it? Since we were talking about something specific, like women voting for a woman president, why would we suddenly talk about such a broad topic like that? What kind of scenarios are we talking about? I don't know how to answer it unless I know what kind of sexism we're talking about. Workplace harassment? Cat calling on the street? What?

Ok, I addressed your question. How is it a double standard when we haven't had a woman president?

DrFunkenstein

(8,745 posts)
120. Second Wave Vs. Third Wave Feminism
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 04:17 PM
Mar 2016

Baby boomers still remember a time when fighting oppression against women was the primary goal of feminism. It is a traditional top-down understanding of power.

From Generation X to the Millenials, the focus has been expanded dramatically to champion the power and diversity of women's experiences and views, a complex understanding of power that has been deeply influenced by theorists like Michel Foucault.

At a time when so many women are longer for more third wave feminists at the highest levels of power, it is disappointing for many younger women to have a retrograde figure like Clinton, all too willing to play a victim when it seems to suit her, to be holding the banner.

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