2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIf Hillary isn't a liar, then she must have Alzheimer's Disease or dementia.
*** EDIT: I'm not trying to make light of these serious diseases. I am speculating on the health of a public official who wants the citizens to trust her with running this country. If she really can't remember something like this then she must have a physical ailment. Don't forget, we found out Reagan had Alzheimer's while still in office. It's serious and anyone suffering from this must not be POTUS. If she won't admit she is lying then she is pathological or she must have a physical disease such as Alzheimer's. What else could it be if she is not a pathological liar? And if she is a pathological liar she is also unfit for office. ***_________________________________________________________________________________
She says she doesn't know where Sanders was in '93 and '94 when she was trying to get "healthcare":
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/272790-sanders-spokesperson-fires-back-at-clinton-for-healthcare[/div
But in 1993 she sent him a thank you note on a picture thanking him for his "commitment to real healthcare".
And he was standing behind her when she was giving a nationally televised speech about healthcare. Now, I'm certain the people standing behind her are purposely selected, especially if they are going to be shown on camera, and Bernie is there, right behind her:
So... if she is not lying about this, as her supporters keep trying to defend her against her lies as having misspoken, and it was something she was absolutely, without any doubt, aware of at the time, and considering this was one of her biggest pursuits and she is bringing it up now, I think the only other answer is she is suffering from Alzheimer's Disease or dementia.
How else can one explain away her not knowing where he was on healthcare in 93 and 94 when it is so obviously clear that she did know, at least back then. So if she is being honest then she is having some major memory loss, the type of which can be attributed to a serious disease.
If Hillary Clinton is suffering from Alzheimer's or dementia she is absolutely unfit for office and must bow out of the primary race immediately.
If Hillary Clinton is not suffering from Alzheimer's or dementia then she is absolutely lying yet again for political expediency and trying to trick the voters into allowing her to achieve her ruthless pursuit of the White House.
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peacebird
(14,195 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,866 posts)Or is narcissistic the better word?
"How to Influence People and Make Friends": a book the OP obviously has never read.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)We are being asked to trust our lives to her. She is obliged to answer especially given her medical history
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)but I have been a caregiver for a loved one with dementia, and I currently have a parent in late stages of Alzheimers.
This OP makes me uncomfortable, to say the least. And I'm not that sensitive.
I'm not going to say any more about it except that if you're trying to imply that anyone with a bad reaction to that subject line must be a Hillary apologist you are sorely mistaken.
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)supporter. But caring for someone with Alzheimer's makes you aware this is no light subject to be used for fodder for political points.
I'm perfectly fine with saying she's lying and distorting Sander's history with health care reform cuz she is and does.
But man, this leaves a really bad after taste.
LiberalArkie
(15,703 posts)I am now worried about it myself as I am forgetting things that I know I shouldn't be at 68.
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)most happy and grateful to have traveled with him. We did get almost a year of chocolate cake, westerns in the afternoon, and writing down family history that would have been lost forever while he lived in my living room (2 story duplex, so hospital bed smack in the middle of all the family activity - he loved it!). I'm glad to have been able to be by as his side, so he did not have to face it alone or with strangers. My dad and uncle had put him in a home. I took him out and made my home, our home.
He wasn't aware of the lapse in memory either, most of the time. But some times he was, and it scared him and broke his heart.
I take heart in what I've read that late onset is only slightly elevating the risk of family members also getting the disease. And if I'm ill-advised in that info - I don't want to know. I always take each day as a gift, and try to enjoy it fully. If nothing else, I learned that from my Old Papa (grandfather).
And I was notorious for forgetting stuff at 20 so imma going with that excuse!
Alzheimer's is nothing to use to make political hay. Not when there is soooo much else to use.
brewens
(13,547 posts)Bernie being a supporter of her health care efforts and apologizing for lying about it. Otherwise, it is perfectly reasonable for us to suspect memory issues that may in fact be health related.
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)in flames or not is not the point I'm making. Certainly she can. But I stand by what I said. I don't feel comfortable with the using of Alzheimer's as a tool to make political points.
YMMV, of course.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)In my opinion.
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)tactic in my view. But I also acknowledge that others hold different opinions. And we all got to express them, that's the beauty of DUers. Sooo ... how 'bout them Red Sox?
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)about Sanders which I see as disingenuous behavior.
Upon reflection of the original comment, I can see that it is inappropriate and apologize for making you uncomfortable with my question.
onecaliberal
(32,786 posts)Epic fat liar. Who voted for this kind of person to be POTUS? There is NO. FUCKING. WAY
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)And her sycophants cheer. They disgust me.
onecaliberal
(32,786 posts)JonathanRackham
(1,604 posts)noamnety
(20,234 posts)except that each day, instead of opening a flap and finding a chocolate or a small toy, we get a new lie.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Too flawed to represent Democrats.
jillan
(39,451 posts)The first time, I didn't think anything of it.
But between her comments on this & on Nancy Reagan, I too have started to wonder.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)for healthcare. How do you "forget" this or "misspeak" on this? She has to admit she lied or allow the voters to find out if she might be suffering from a disease that makes her unfit for office.
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Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)and then I'm out of here. If you want to talk to me about it feel free to PM but I'm hiding this thread now because I don't even want to look at it.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)There is only one other option.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,129 posts)Think that plays a part also.
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)from the concussion she sustained several years ago when she fainted during a reported bout with the flu and fell and struck her head?
I don't know. It seems that her issues with telling the truth go back further than that.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)combined with lack of sleep, anxiety - there could be a number of other reasons. I would hate to think such a young woman is suffering from Alzheimer's or dementia, though anything is possible - for anyone. Maybe she is knowingly 'misstating' the facts. For her own physical health, I hope so. For hundreds of millions of others, that's frightening.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)She began showing early symptoms at age 60...such as memory loss and confusion.
This was a razor sharp career high school math teacher, and a mother who forgot nothing...ever, before the onset of Alzheimers.
I am now over 60, and whenever I have a "Senior Moment" it scares me.
polly7
(20,582 posts)It's so sad when it happens to someone so young. I've worked with many residents and pts. in nursing homes and know what a horrible disease it is, and how difficult to watch someone in your own family deteriorate so drastically. I had an aunt I was very close to who also developed symptoms of EOD in her late 50's, so I know it does happen. I just hate to hear of it, and wanted to point out that there are other causes for errors in memory.
Your mom sounds like she was a fantastic person - she certainly passed down her intelligence.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)One of the prevalent misconceptions about Alzheimer's is that one has to be "old" to get it.
That said, I don't believe Hillary has Alzheimers.
She has been a chronic liar for a long time.
polly7
(20,582 posts)and I tend to agree with you on Hillary after reading so much of her life in politics here. Some people do it so often they don't even realize how bad they are at it. What amazes me is that her campaign advisers don't try harder to make her see how easy it is for people to check, especially the young people just getting so interested in politics - they're crazy good researchers.
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)thing one would make up for political gain.
I'm thinking back now to 2012 and wondering. Hoping she is just tired.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)PonyUp
(1,680 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)No illness, no mental disease, nothing.
She is just a typical politician that will say or do anything to get a vote. I'm tired of those politicians. The country can, and should, do better.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Hillary Clintons sudden attack on Bernie Sanders single-payer health care plan is a dramatic break with Democratic Party doctrine that the problem with single-payer is that it is politically implausible not that it is a bad idea.
Single-payer, the Canadian-style system in which the government pays for universal health care, takes the health insurance industry out of the picture, saving huge amounts of money. But the health insurance industry has become so rich and powerful that it would never let it happen.
That was certainly Clintons position back in the early 1990s, when she was developing her doomed universal coverage proposal for her husband, Bill.
But in the ensuing years, both Clintons have taken millions of dollars in speaking fees from the health care industry. According to public disclosures, Hillary Clinton alone, from 2013 to 2015, made $2,847,000 from 13 paid speeches to the industry.
Source: Public federal disclosures, Clinton campaign
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/13/hillary-clinton-single-payer/
In 2008, Clinton was the among the three biggest recipients of campaign cash from pharmaceutical-related companies, according to data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics. In all, the watchdog group reports that she raised $738,000 from employees of pharmaceutical manufacturers and companies classified as Pharmaceuticals /Health Products. The center reports that Clinton also raised more than $1.2 million from the insurance industry -- which includes health insurers.
On top of those campaign contributions, the Clintons and their family foundation have benefited from their ties to the pharmaceutical and insurance industries.
In 2011, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) -- the primary trade association representing drug companies -- paid Bill Clinton $200,000 for a speech, as the organization was lobbying the Hillary Clinton-led State Department. Last year, the Drug Chemical and Associated Technologies Association, a trade group whose members include major pharmaceutical companies, paid her a $250,000 speaking fee.
Meanwhile, the Clinton Foundation has received between $1 million and $5 million worth of donations separately from drug manufacturers Pfizer and Procter & Gamble, and from health insurers Humana and Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina. Some of those companies made donations as recently as this year, according to the foundations website.
That largesse was part of a friendship forged after those industries opposed her 1993 health care initiative -- and which continued after she won reelection to the Senate in 2006.
http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/democratic-debate-2015-hillary-clintons-enemies-pharmaceutical-insurance
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Babel_17
(5,400 posts)In a campaign you have to speak first, ask questions later. So, if her staff is just high-fiving her on how great her ideas are, nonsense will slip out.
Lack of sleep, as it pertains to everyone, will compound the situation.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)the 99% appreciate it!
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Given the above, and several dozen other untruths (now euphemistically called "misspeaking" I have personally caught her in.
My opinion is she has earned the negative honesty numbers she has received, and she simply lied, yet again, likely a new lie will emerge next time she opens her mouth, as these untruths happen rather often and on a regular basis.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)because of all the lies she throws out.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)10-1 says it's just flip-flopping gone wild.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)But, I think she is just a run of the mill pathological liar.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)As more of her past and lingering mistakes are coming out she's trying to recapture a more flattering narrative.
I think she felt threatened by the idea that being first lady wasn't such a big deal and made up the story about being under fire.
She was a little worried about the money and privilege issue, so talked about being "dead broke" when they left the white house.
Now, she wants to make her years as first lady doing good works into a more flattering picture. If she suggests that ALL first ladies play a significant role, the expectation is that that image will transfer to her.
She is just a terrible politician who underestimates the sophistication of the electorate and she overestimates the potential of her narrative to connect with people. She started out going for trying to impress people into voting for her, she was able to connect with some voters in the south where Bill already had connections.
Her "experience" is being found out to have been actions that have done a lot of damage to a lot of people. Now she wants to redirect the narrative, and she just can't.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Thanks for posting that.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)behind her planning at the time, we'd be better off now.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)And in other ways:
I know reading is hard, but come on... this was laid out in pictures.
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MrJefe
(7 posts)At this point, she is clearly unfit to serve. Either she is so fundamentally dishonest she does not belong in public service in any capacity, or she is experiencing profound mental health problems, and needs medical help before she deteriorates further.
Either way she is completely unfit to serve.
rocktivity
(44,572 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 12, 2016, 10:12 PM - Edit history (1)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5220049rocktivity
madamesilverspurs
(15,799 posts)A few years back I attended an event focusing on local hunger issues, participating as one of several organizers and speakers. Recently a friend shared some pics he'd taken, including a photo hed taken of that event that showed a rather prominent person standing beside me as I spoke. To this day I have no memory of his being in attendance. Apparently I, too, am either a liar or suffer from Alzheimer's.
indigoth
(135 posts)Also send the prominent person a photo, signed and dated, thanking them for their support/input?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)We're talking about someone who was FLOTUS giving a nationally televised speech. They don't put just anyone behind FLOTUS in this situation. These are carefully planned and orchestrated events. I'm certain she had a hand in who stood behind her.
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madamesilverspurs
(15,799 posts)seeing as how I was one of the organizers involved in the planning, etc., I can say that yes, the thing was "carefully planned and orchestrated", even though it was not televised or of national interest. Oddly, I can clearly remember some events from when I was eighteen months old. Apparently I'm not in charge of what memories stick, and I understand that most humans are similarly wired.
But have it your way, if it makes you feel better.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Right back atcha. Because I'm sure your event was just like FLOTUS speaking to the nation. mmkay.
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madamesilverspurs
(15,799 posts)My point being that her position doesn't make her immune to the foibles that pester the rest of us, just as my non-public position doesn't make me more prone to them. Just as I expect my doctors to have a certain expertise when it comes to the exercise of their profession but don't consider them flawed when they need to consult my records in order to make the best decision, I don't expect any candidate to be super-human. I guess I'm just willing to cut somebody some slack for imperfections that we all share. That said, if Clinton OR Sanders starts acting like Trump or Rubio or Cruz, all bets are off.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)did you WORK with that person on a project? Did you specifically call out that person's name to thank them for something?? No?
Then your situation is nothing like hers.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)she assumes people have short memories or weren't born then.
Omaha Steve
(99,506 posts)She did have a brain blood clot. We have not had a physical report. I believe we got a doctors note. A lot of DUers were upset when Sarah did that!
OS
It Is What It Is It Is What It Is - Frontotemporal Degeneration: Tragic Loss, Abiding Hope
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I do feel it's a real concern if she keeps claiming she's not lying. If she really is not lying, then what else can it be? It was found out that Reagan had Alzheimer's while he was still in office and I don't think anyone believes it would be okay for POTUS to have such an ailment. She's most likely simply a pathological liar, in which case she is still unfit for office.
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Omaha Steve
(99,506 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts).
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)PatrickforO
(14,559 posts)Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)All the pointy-H avatars that you'd think would be flaring up here!
Jemmons
(711 posts)If you want to do something for the nation on a big scale, you can
a) adapt your views to whatever lets you have some chance of gaining power
or
b) stick to your guns and patiently wait until the majority view catches up with your vision for the country.
I would tend to think that adapting your personal views in order to accelerate a political career will screw up your inner belief systems to a degree that is non-trivial. Stating something that isn't true, something that is in fact opposite to the real facts, but which would be expedient to your political career or at least vaguely supportive could be a consequence of a lifestyle where cutting ties to inconvenient beliefs is normal.
It was suggested that this kind of "misspeaking" could be explained by lack of sleep, exhaustion or the like. But when people lose self control from exhaustion or lack of sleep, they will do what comes naturally either by habit or by instinct. This is why this kind of lies are quite revealing.
In this light "misspeaking" is not a sign of physiological disease, but of a real and serious lack of integrity.
brewens
(13,547 posts)doctor. His doctor orders some tests and the guy goes through that.
The guy goes into get his test results and ends up waiting for a short time in an exam room. His doctor comes in and immediately tells him, "I've got some bad news. You have cancer, and you have Alzheimer's". This sinks in for a few seconds and the guy says, "well at least I don't have cancer!"
JohnnyLib2
(11,211 posts)I see and appreciate your edit, but bringing up Alzheimer's in this context truly is painful to behold. Maybe we could just stick to run of the mill negative attacks for awhile; there is no shortage.
RIP: ECH, a good woman and loving sister
elleng
(130,767 posts)it seems either that her memory isn't what's desirable in a President or she's getting and accepting bad advice from advisers.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)She can't even conceive that she would ever be called on her lies. She lives in a world where everything she says is fawned over,m applauded, and hailed as a masterful stroke of genius. She surrounds herself with ass-patters and yes-men, and honestly, desperately believes that any criticism of her is just a "right-wing smear" - even when it's the left pointing out actual facts.
it's not a specifically Hillary problem. pretty much everyone who becomes so isolated within their own private universe ends up this way. You see it in quite a number of celebrities and the extremely wealthy.
Deadshot
(384 posts)It's no surprise she lied about this.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I know that Bernie was asked for a medical report, which he produced.
Has the same been asked of Clinton, especially since she suffered those concussions while Secretary of State?
If she has them, will she release them, or require that everyone else on both parties release them before she does?
zentrum
(9,865 posts)Thanks!!
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)fictional stories she wants--it's what the Clintons do, and it doesn't hurt them very much. Hillary fans and supporters love Clintonian lies and dishonesty, they see it as a sign of her ruthless determination to WIN. Kind of how Trump fans see his constant lies and shifts in positions as the sign of a fighter and winner.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)I just heard that in a movie and it fits
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
.is that though some will know she's lying, there's a sizable mainstream that will never hear this correction. They're either not wired, or too busy with life stresses, or the media they get will never tell them. The MSM will give her the headline and that will be the end of it.
She knows you can fool some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time.
She's desperate to undo his stronger stand on healthcare so what else has she got but this calculation? Throw everything and some of it will stick, she figures.
Maddow has no business being a priori in HRC's pocket. This is her kind of story. Used to be.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I don't remember every single person I dealt with in the early 90s. You remember the people who were the most in your life, not every single goddam person anywhere. This is stupid. It's 2016. Who makes the best President now is the issue. And there are millions of letters thinking people, etc.
Only people obsessed with Bernie don't realize there were a lot more people involved.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)with him in the past. The files on every position, every appearance, every vote, every speech that Bernie's ever had or made probably take up multiple laptops that are always on hand at ClintonCorp. And if that's not the case, then they're slipping badly. So yeah, this is the spaghetti/wall phase of the campaign--doesn't have to be true, just has to stick.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)We have two pieces of evidence that shows she wasn't telling the truth about not knowing where Bernie was in 93 and 94 regarding healthcare.
One is FLOTUS giving a nationally televised speech. They don't put just anyone behind FLOTUS in this situation. These are carefully planned and orchestrated events. I'm certain she had a hand in who stood behind her. And lo and behold, one in the most prominent positions behind her was Bernie. This means she wanted him to be seen behind her.
Second is the hand written thank you note on the picture. That was a strongly worded thank you about his commitment to healthcare. She cannot possibly have just forgotten he was around helping her with this. Impossible.
So you don't think she's lying, then let's see her medical records and have her undergo some tests. If she doesn't have one of these diseases then she is a pathological liar and is still unfit for office.
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noamnety
(20,234 posts)Kokonoe
(2,485 posts)To be fair Hillary is very smooth.
The latest lie is an old moldy from Bush. Those pictures were out months ago, and Hillary has just changed the subject from a possible GLBT brouhaha, to gaslighting her effort for a universal health insurance company in the 90's with a single stroke.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)do not succumb to it, but usually a urinary tract infection or pneumonia etc. I thought myself today, I wonder if Hillary is starting to forget because of the two in your face lies (or?). The issue of the note was brought up before and all over FB some months ago. It seems strange to me that she would out and out lie about these things with so much proof. And I would think her team would tell her not to say it because of the pictures and proof. I think it is something that might cross people's minds. I do not think there is disrespect in the concern. If not a medical issue (that head bleed problem could have caused problems also and no medical records released just a dr's. note right?) then she is a horrific in your face liar. My husband is still high functioning but his reasoning is off. He wants to go back to college hundreds of miles away at 81 and the college is not there anymore. He was trying to leave last week and I had to defuse the situation by talking to him for one hour on the phone. He is in a memory center. Did I feel concern about the OP's comment, no, because the same thought crossed my mind today. It's one or the other. A medical issue or out and out lying and not thinking she would get caught.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)circulating so recently. Wasn't it another lie about Bernie and healthcare that caused people to post that pic with her thank you note?
She won't release her medical records, why not? Why just a doctor's note? Wasn't it her campaign that asked for Bernie's medical records? Something is off.
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Response to cui bono (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
demwing
(16,916 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511477864#post12
but you came out with both guns blazing
My dad has Alzheimer's. He knows me when we talk online, but not in person. It's a very serious condition, and not for political play.
That said, what are we to believe? She's either telling blatant, easy to debunk lies (and that would be horrible of her), or she's impaired (and that would be horrible for her). In either case, we can't ask her to be president. It's not in her interest, nor the public's.
dflprincess
(28,072 posts)is how easy the internet makes it to find past comments. Many politicians seem to have this problem.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)A concussion for any senior citizen is a major league industrial strength worry for neurologists. Effects can be immediate, or delayed.
I think it's time for a brain scan and the results should be made public ASAP.