why I won't pledge to support Clinton or pledge to opt out if she's our nominee

[femmedem]

It's no secret I support Bernie Sanders. I like his ideas, his consistency and his integrity. My upcoming vote for him in the CT primary will be a vote for him, not against Clinton. And I will continue to donate and fight for him to get every vote and every delegate possible.

I also know that Clinton is both very likely to be our nominee, and very much better than any of the Republicans.

So why am I loathe to say now that I will support her in November if she is our nominee? Because if Sanders voters say, en masse, that she can trust in our support, she is more likely breathe a sigh of relief, then pivot to the right. I want Sanders and the sizable number of people who support him to force her to stay focused on income inequality, on racial justice, on climate change, and on overturning Citizens United.

Likewise, I will not say I am leaving the Democratic Party, staying home or voting for Jill Stein. If we signal that we aren't going to support her regardless of what she says, why wouldn't she write us off and start focusing on more conservative potential supporters?

Whether you are a voter or a politician, winning is about smart negotiating. Sanders' Democratic and independent voters have a lot of power, and it isn't smart to give in without getting something in return. It also isn't smart to avoid the negotiations.

[Vinca]

1. My only motivation at this point is keeping Trump from winning.

He's nuts and dangerous and could totally destroy this country.

[marions ghost]

7. I hope that

as the year goes on, that you will see that Hillary does not stop Trump.

[Adrahil]

8. Why would "hope" that?

She is going to be the nominee, barring something cataclysmic. Why would you "hope" that people "see" she doesn't stop Trump? I actually think she win the GE handily against Trump, especially since there is the very real possibility of a third party conservative run.

[marions ghost]

18. I think the only way she wins against Trump

is if many Repiglicons vote for her. Those who are reaping big rewards in this economy. So what does that say about her working for the rest of us?

RE hopes--maybe I should say it another way--I hope that people realize at some point that IF it is Trump vs Hillary--she does not have a great chance of winning.

A lot of people are voting for her out of fear of Trump now. Trump Fear is certainly reasonable and real. But I hope at some point it becomes clear that she is not the best bet against him. We'll see if the third party conservative run happens. Too little too late for that I think--they've been blindsided.

Does that explain?

[Nitram]

24. Ghost, you forget that a Trump candidacy could very well significantly depress the Republican vote.

That would be just as good as votes for the democratic candidate. The odds are very much in Clinton's favor, like it or not.

[marions ghost]

33. We'll see...

I'm not feeling that opinion out there very much. And it doesn't seem to have depressed the R vote so far. The majority seem to be pro Trump.

You think many R voters will support Hillary to defeat Trump?

[Nitram]

45. The majority of primary delegates, who always are farther right than the rest of the party.

Republican voters don't have to support Hillary - if they don't bother to vote (as some Bernie followers have said they will do) they will end up helping her. The chaos in the GOP will end up depressing the GOP vote.

[marions ghost]

47. OK

you are saying:

R vote will be depressed with Trump.
D vote will be depressed with Hillary.

I am saying that the D vote will NOT be depressed with Bernie.

[Adrahil]

31. I've heard that argument before.

I don't buy it.

Trumps has significantly higher negatives than she does, and she has the virtue of not being a raving racist and misogynist.

She wins by 5+

[Land of Enchantment]

44. Bloomberg is out. Do you know of another

third party candidate? Jesse Ventura? Trump will crush her in the GE because she has alienated half the dems and is a complete turn off to the independents and millennials. There is no collective enthusiasm for her.

She may not be the nominee and not because of something 'cataclysmic'. This is FAR from over. Oh yes, AND nothing draws Republicans to the polls like the name 'Clinton'. The have been loaded for bear for her since '08.

[Nitram]

54. Alienated half the Dems? Only on DU.

Get out of the bubble.

[Land of Enchantment]

63. LOL I've been around

quite a while and can assure you I am not in a bubble--I supported and worked for candidates you have probably never heard of so let's go there, shall we? George McGovern in 1972, Bill Bradley, Jerry Brown, Jesse Jackson, Eugene McCarthy, Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean for starters. What do you suppose happened to them--better yet, tell me what happened to them and why and who the DNC rammed down our throats? Hold your nose and vote for whoever WE tell you to vote for!!! NO. I am older and wiser and it will take a revolution to change it. Your candidate has peaked. She cannot grow her base, she is losing her base. Indy's make up 42%, Dems 29% and Reps 26%. The Indys and millennials do not support her. She will likely go the way of Humphrey, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore and Kerry.

[Nitram]

66. You can be in a bubble,

and not realize you're there. Believe me, I saw it among 60s radicals and struggled to understand.

[Nitram]

14. Your hope, Ghost, implies you "hope" Trump wins.

What is it with Bernie supporters that they'd rather have Trump win than see Clinton win? You've bought your own hype, propaganda and hysteria about Clinton. Wake up!

[marions ghost]

21. Read my post #18 above

maybe that will clarify for you.

No of course I don't hope Trump wins (yawn) but I don't think it's the time to operate out of fear. And I think many people are. I think it's responsible for quite a bit of Hillary support.

Trust me I am awake more than you know.

[Vinca]

61. I think Bernie would have a better chance, but you have to accept things as they are,

not as you wish them to be. It looks like Hillary is going to get enough delegates and be the nominee. It's also most likely Trump will be the nominee on the right. Chances are, the GOP is going to split into 2 or even 3 different parts. There will be the Trump voters, the Republicans who vote for Hillary and, possibly, a third Independent run by someone from the "mainstream" Republican Party. That's the only way Hillary can win given the dismal turnout and level of excitement this year. Given how batshit crazy Trump is, we'd better hope Hillary can beat him.

[SCantiGOP]

2. When you lose

You have no negotiating position left.

[Matt_in_STL]

28. Cool, so Hillary can win without the Bernie voters then.

Sounds like I can swing my vote to whomever I want to then and you won't have to worry.

[SCantiGOP]

51. Did you think

The Clinton campaign was going to negotiate with you about your vote?

Vote for Clinton in November, or vote (directly or by default) for Trump. Choice is all yours.

[Matt_in_STL]

53. Sorry, I don't vote on fear.

You and your fellow Hillary supporters will have to come up with a better argument than that to earn my vote and the vote of many others.

[SCantiGOP]

55. We're not going to argue with you on your vote

That is your decision.
We have an election to win to save this country from a neo-fascist threat.

[femmedem]

49. I don't feel as if I have lost.

I feel like it's not political poison to be a Democratic Socialist.

I feel like a politician can raise plenty of money without corporate support.

I feel like a lot of people, not just the progressive far left, will vote for a candidate that says that climate change is the biggest threat to national security.

I feel like the cynical and politically disengaged can suddenly become very engaged if the right candidate comes along and addresses their issues.

I feel like Democrats are suddenly on board with a much more progressive platform, and are now arguing about who is more able to achieve our progressive goals.

I feel like part of a large block of Americans who are wielding political power.

I feel like a winner.

[treestar]

3. Ok

[GoneFishin]

4. Way too complex. If the party tells me to piss off by putting it's thumb on the scale and not

allowing a fair competition then they don't represent me. I owe it nothing.

(Not to mention that appearance of multiple instances of outright cheating which also don't reflect my values)

[Adrahil]

9. What "thumb?" People are voting. Most of them are voting for HRC. NT

[GoneFishin]

10. Bullshit. Either you are blind to it, or you are feigning ignorance. I don't care which.

[Adrahil]

11. Hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant, right? NT

[GoneFishin]

12. SEE POST #10.

[Adrahil]

13. SEE ELECTION RESULTS. NT

[Kalidurga]

39. If the party tells me to piss off by putting it's thumb

on the scale and not allowing a fair competition.

This is pretty much why a lot of people are voting for Hillary. The fact more people are voting for her isn't proof of no thumbs being on the scale, but you already knew that.

[Nitram]

15. Gone, whether you like the party or not, it would be madness not to do...

...anything you can at this point to prevent Trump from winning.

[GoneFishin]

29. If the party machinery and a chunk of the base insists on driving near the edge of that cliff

then I accept no responsibility for going over the edge.

I want to change course. That's why I fight for Bernie.

I love the party, and if we can get leadership that represents the public rather than their billionaire friends it could be a great party again. But evidently the corruption is too pervasive.

[Art_from_Ark]

34. Hear hear!

[99Forever]

22. Sad but true.

I cannot and will not support a cheating cheater or those that are complicit in it.

[Nitram]

43. So, 99, by not voting you'll support a sociopathic bigotted scam artist who...

...encourages violence against those who oppose him. That's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Good luck with that.

[arcane1]

60. Fearmongering isn't helping. Trump will never be president.

And if all Hillary has is "I'm not Trump" then we are well and truly fucked.

[Nitram]

65. I agree Trump will never be president.

But I was responding to 99 who will never vote against Trump unless Bernie is the Democratic nominee.

[dana_b]

64. agree 100%

"Not to mention that appearance of multiple instances of outright cheating" - yeah... we can;t talk about that because we'll get labeled as conspiracy theorists but things do look weird. I won't say anymore though. No accusations here!!

I don't owe the party anything either and especially because I'm an independent and only here for Bernie.

Don't let others guilt trip you - just do what is in your heart and head.

[farleftlib]

5. No matter what we say or don't say at this point in time

Her leftward stances are just that - acts that she has no intention of ever putting into action. The party has taken liberals for granted for so long, they know they don't have to appease us. It will be business as usual. If you think you or independents have a seat at the negotiating table, you are sadly mistaken. Hillary doesn't acknowledge your existence let alone your needs and wants.

[Nitram]

16. Clinton has always had liberal instincts.

Thanks to Bernie for forcing them into the open. I believe when he started his main goal was to push the party farther left, and in that the succeeded. We owe him for that.

[marions ghost]

23. No evidence that anything has been pushed

anywhere. Or ever will be.

[Nitram]

25. OK, sulk if you want.

The rest of us will keep on keepin' on.

[marions ghost]

38. I'll keep on

don't worry.

The track record on what you say is not good.

[GoneFishin]

32. Yep. I often hear that proclamation about her moving to the left. Bull-fucking-shit. No fucking

way is she going to follow through with any liberal policies. I don't believe for one second that she has been genuinely moved. She is a political machine and will say whatever she thinks will get her another vote.

[marions ghost]

37. Concur + 1000

[GoneFishin]

19. Agreed. Words from her don't mean shit. It's mostly evasive non-answers. That should be a clue.

But evidently many, many people are fooled by those fuzzy non-commital non-answers.

[Jim Lane]

6. Your negotiation goal is to achieve a meaningless change in her campaign spin

I agree with you that the course you outline is the best approach toward achieving that goal. I just don't see much value in the goal.

Clinton has variously described herself as a centrist and as a progressive. She will continue to describe herself in the terms she considers most advantageous at that moment. We might change her political calculus about how to campaign from now through election day, but I can't see that changing anything about how she'll govern if elected.

[grossproffit]

17. Good God. Could we just have a sticky thread for all these "I wont vote for her posts."

[Matt_in_STL]

30. If there are so many of those posts...

Wouldn't it be wise to determine how to bring those voters back into the fold rather than continually posting the same snarky posts as always? Well, unless you are sure Hillary can win without the Bernie voters...

[femmedem]

40. I did not say that I wouldn't vote for her.

Nor did I say that I would.

I said I want her to earn my vote, not take it for granted.

Puking at a Bernie supporter doesn't help your cause.

[pdsimdars]

20. and just look at the smug and condescention of her supporters -- ugh

[firebrand80]

26. Take your cry for attention somewhere else

No one cares, just vote your conscious

[Nanjeanne]

36. This is a discussion group, is it not?

[pinebox]

56. No one cares isn't helping your cause at all in fact it hurts your candidate

and you want us to support Hillary in a GE should she be the nominee? With words like that, you just said even more so why many won't.

[firebrand80]

57. I don't care who you support

You're a grownup, vote your conscious

[femmedem]

42. Welcome to DU!

Agreed. Loyalty pledges don't advance the policies we are fighting for.

[ibegurpard]

48. you can't keep her on her toes

Voting for her with her history, record, and rhetoric is an endorsement of neoliberalism.

[Nanjeanne]

35. I don't know what I will do on the day I go to vote but I do know that

I will not help in any way give Hillary her golden ring. She has not earned my vote in any way. She takes my vote for granted or condescends to me with lip service. She may or may not win the GE but whatever happens she has only herself to congratulate or blame. I am not responsible. She ran a campaign I despise and she does not have my respect.

I have time to decide if I can put her name down if she wins nomination. What I do know is she will never have my support. And I will never give a penny or lend my support to any establishment Democrat organization. My money and time will only go to candidates I believe in.

I fully expect that with 4-8 years of Clinton we will see more war, a Grand Bargain with means testing of SS, a raised age of Medicare and retirement, no raise in the cap, passage of TPP, more water issues in cities with continued fracking, a continuing increase in inequality and rising drug prices and healthcare costs.

What is worse, is I really do believe if Clinton wins the nomination, the progressive movement will be doomed to minimal attention. The beltway media will tout the meme that middle of the road, republican-right Dems is the only way to win and progressives will be more hesitant to speak up for fear of the backlash they will come to expect from the Clinton machine that will have renewed power through Hillary's election.

I would love to be wrong. I beg Hillary Clinton to prove me wrong. I fear I won't be. And I truly feel sorry for the younger generation that will have to deal with more of the status quo politics a Clinton Presidency will cement.

[ChiciB1]

50. You Said If For Nanjeanne, I Hardly Slept Last Night Because Of

how afraid I am. I'm not sure people actually understand what's coming down the road. The power of the Clintons is what I fear most. They've wanted the golden ring for so long and may get it this time, but I wonder how long it will take for people to realize the ring can turn to RUST for the rest of the country.

I can't be here for now and nobody has to say don't let the door kick me on the way out. Not worried about THAT KICK, worried about the KICK that's will be coming to ALL of us! ALL OF US!

[Shadowflash]

41. That SOUNDS good but...

''I want Sanders and the sizable number of people who support him to force her to stay focused on income inequality, on racial justice, on climate change, and on overturning Citizens United.''


The problem is that she will tell whomever she is talking to whatever they want to hear to get their vote and just do what she wants, if elected, anyway, and there will be no 'forcing' her to do anything.

I look at her long held positions that she supported BEFORE she started running for president and before she had to start pandering for votes. Hell, even some of the positions she has taken SINCE running for president, I can't stomach.

I dunno. I don't trust her, no matter what she says, because she will promise something else to someone else tomorrow.

[MineralMan]

52. While some, including me, have pledged to support the Democratic

nominee, no matter who that is, I haven't seen many insisting that others do the same. A declaration of support is not a demand for support. It is simply someone declaring their own intentions. That difference is often missed.

[pinebox]

58. I've seen quite a few

and it's rather sad.
I've also seen posts claiming Bernie and even those in the down ticket who are "Bernie progressives" aren't real Democrats or "new Democrats". It's sad. Very sad.

[arcane1]

59. Hillary can have my vote, but she has to earn it.

I'm done with politicians who think I owe them my vote. When I cast my vote for president in November it will be for the candidate who most earned it.