Why do people act like trashing Hillary will make us switch to Bernie?

[bravenak]

It is such a strange thing to me. Some people this primary season seem to believe that if they trash Hillary enough, we will be interested in supporting Bernie.

Not just that, but there is also an issue where if Bernie has a flaw, and if you are the one to point it out, some will search far and wide through the interwebs to find something you wrote that was bad, or terrible, that you may regret, and feel terrible about, in order to use that as a way to shut you up so that you do not criticise Bernie.

Nobody is perfect, least of all myself, but one needs not be a perfect in order to be allowed to criticise a candidate for president.

We are allowed to criticise Bernie.

[Chasstev365]

1. Why do Hillary Supporters Belittle Bernie Supporters?

It cuts both ways. Rather than actually debating tbe issues, Sanders supporters are subjected to ridicule and treated as an annoying nucuence standing in Hillary's way. If you don't believe me, go over some posts and see what has been said about Bernie by Hillary supporters.

[bravenak]

5. Why do a few call us stockholm syndrome victims without the other supporters telling them to

Knock it off? The treatment of my racial demograhic by a subset of his supporters is why I am so very skeptical an critical. I think Bernie needs to speak out.

[Duckhunter935]

40. Take it out on the few

Do not insult with the broad brush like you are now.

[bravenak]

76. Why not you get them for me so I dont notice it so much

Then we can be on the same team. Cause those watching in silence are just as guilty

[Lizzie Poppet]

164. "And all the regular Muslims need to stop the terrorists."

Pretty much what you're saying...

I think we're done. We've had some good conversations, but you've gone off the deep end. I wish you well, but you're going on Ignore.

[bravenak]

168. Muslims are not a self selected political group they are born into it mainly

So that deflection is weak. Bye!

[LonePirate]

136. For every Hillary supporter on DU, there are 5 or more Bernie supporters.

For a Bernie supporter to claim offense is a bit absurd as there is demonstrably far more Hillary hate on this site than Bernie hate. To pretend there is any sort of equivalence between the two is ridiculous.

[Beacool]

235. Thank you for stating a fact that many of his supporters refuse to accept.

The vile spewed against Hillary got so bad that I stopped coming here on a regular basis. I just started frequenting the site again now that the voting is actually taking place. Some of her supporters left and didn't come back.

[Cary]

242. This too shall pass

Their well earned comeuppance is near completion

[Politicalboi]

259. You're right, but Bernie doesn't have investigations

Going on. If he did I would expect him to drop out. All this bad news about Hillary is just making it's way into the media. Are we supposed to ignore it and not post because it's anti-Clinton. Baggage comes with good and bad news, and their unpacking hers now.

[LonePirate]

265. The Hillary hate on DU goes a lot deeper than that. It's like she killed their family pet for fun.

[riversedge]

303. What are you insinuating????

[shadowandblossom]

288. Thank you.

I appreciate and respect your integrity in coming out and saying that, to stand up for other members of the Democrat-community. Thank you.

[sheshe2]

304. Thank you LonePirate. nt

[DesertFlower]

2. i was a bernie supporter until about 6 weeks ago. i listened

very carefully to the debates and changed to hillary. bernie has great ideas, but i don't think he get get them accomplished.

during that time i never trashed hillary or bernie and no matter what anyone says here on DU i make my own decisions.

now i have told people that if they don't vote for the nominee they can blame themselves if we get another repub prez. i was banned from a bernie group for saying that. i said nothing bad about him.

whether bernie is the nominee or not change will happen because of him. he's opened a lot of people's minds about what goes on in washington.

[bravenak]

3. I am glad you mad the right decision for yourself

I am going to try to be a bit cooler in the future when discussing the candidates. I woud vote for either of them over a republican.

[DesertFlower]

4. so will i. this was why i was banned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280150282

meanwhile people are still responding to my comments but i can't answer back.

[bravenak]

9. I got blocked in august I think after the BLM stuff

I posted there on accident

[Armstead]

56. "you do live in a fantasy world."

I find that insulting, along with if the Republicans win "blame yourself."

You forgot to mention Ponies when referring to people's deeply held beliefs, and their sense of optimism that it is possible to start changing the problems in our system.

[hrmjustin]

124. Hey You!

[DesertFlower]

186. hi -- how are you?

[hrmjustin]

195. I am well. Happy about Hillary doing well.

[DesertFlower]

231. me too. nt

[Beacool]

236. Thank you for coming aboard.

[Baobab]

244. tell us some of Hillaries ideas.. what won you over?

what did she say that grabbed you that much? Please be specific.

[DesertFlower]

279. you know exactly what her ideas are.

find someone else to argue with.

[TCJ70]

6. I think much of it stems from some people...

...having a very loose definition of "trashing". For some here, just bringing up things she's said that are contradictory constitutes trashing. That's ridiculous.

[bravenak]

7. Or, twisting her words or taking stuff out of context

Like, if we are voting Hillary, why do folks come and post 25 year old videos and excerpts out if context?

Or, if we have a problem with sometging Bernie says o does, why do people list the things they that about Hillary or post a comment she made, or call he a goldwater girl instead of discussing the comment or thing Bernie said? Her saying dumb stuff or having past issues doesnt fix what he said or did.

[TCJ70]

11. There's very little twisting of Hillary's words or taking things out of context...

...since it's all on video you can watch most of it. The only thing we don't have context for are the paid speeches. One problem Hillary has is that she has so much material to bring up that's negative. The entirety of the 2008 campaign, her pushing for NAFTA, the crime bill, IWR, publicly opposing trade deals but working behind the scenes to get them passed. The list goes on and on. Sanders has some things people see as negatives but there just aren't as many compared to hers.

Ultimately, I don't think it's right to judge candidates based on what their supporters say or do. It should be all about positions, policies, and consistency.

[bravenak]

16. Nope!!

I Think it is perfectly fine to judge a candidate by the atmosphere they create in their camp. At anytime they can denounce bad behaviour and let it be known that they are not interested in that type of support. If a candidate is having trouble with a certin demographic ut is up to the candidate to find out why and make steps to create a welcoming environmrnt for a diverse group of people. He FAILED TO HAVE OUR BACKS. Allowing folks to treat us like that in his name without comment created a lack of trust. How can we be sure he will hve our backs later if he cannot even tell HIS PEOPLE to behave.

Noone should have to wade through sewage to get to the candidate. People should not be feeling unwelcome, trashed, disrespected and told that they should ignore that to focus on policy THAT MIGHT NEVER COME TO BE.

How black people are treated IS A REAL ISSUE IN AMERICA. Is a real issue this cycle. And we DO NOT go where we are not wanted or welcome. We know better. After 400 years of bullshit, we better watch to see how we are treated before we commit. It is not SAFE FOR US TO HANG OUT WITH GROUPS THAT TREAT US LIKE GARBAGE. We are humans. We matter. How people treat us matters. We should not have to put up with anymore racism than white people and be told by them that we are defective for having a problem with it. And nobody should ever tell us that only policy, positions, and consistancy matters and is more important than how we are treated day to day, day in day out, morning noon and night, year in year out, no days off, no vacations, just because of THE COLOR OF OUR SKIN. Especially if they do not experience it themselves. It is painful. It hurts. My children will have to live this shit. It is stressful. A fucking burden. And people act like we deserve it. We cannot even get our own allies to treat us fair.

[TCJ70]

151. You aren't electing a friend, you're electing a president...

...and one of our two candidates may end up in that chair. What they say matters. Not their supporters. Here:

www.berniesanders.com/issues

You don't have to wade through anything to click a link.

As for race, I'm not quite sure why you're bringing that up in the context of our conversation. I don't care if you're black, white, or anywhere in between...if you support Hillary, I think you're making a bad choice. There isn't anything wrong with that.

[bravenak]

154. And a president had to have my best interests in mind and notice how his group treats me

OR HE CAN KICK ROCKS

[TCJ70]

166. No candidate can control the Internet...

...where anyone can say or type anything. To suggest they should or can is silly whether they're Hillary or Bernie. All I can do is say I'm sorry you feel treated like garbage.

[bravenak]

169. But they can say STOP

They can denounce it. They can give us something to work with instead of just saying there is nothing they can do. If he cannot do that, then what the hell is this revolution about? If he cannot do this he damn sure cannot manage a revolution.

[TCJ70]

184. What you have to work with...

...is two candidates. Examine their positions, make a choice. That's all any of us have to do. What anyone else does does not matter. At all. Bernie has denounced the so-called "BernieBro" (hate that word but I have no other option). If that's not good enough for you, that's too bad.

[bravenak]

188. So I cannot ask for shit?

Then enjoy the revolution. That is why we aint there. Caint ask for shit we want not even respect.

[TCJ70]

196. Respect?

How has Sanders (not his supporters, they don't matter) disrespected you? Which parts of Sanders platform disrespects you? His campaign is about everyone, no matter what race they are, and his proposals and policy positions affect all people. He was also first to have a racial justice section on his issues page which is the same today as it was at the beginning of his campaign.

If you want someone to pander to you, Clinton is your candidate. It's a well-known part of her character that she'll say anything, to anyone, if she felt it would get her something in return. That doesn't appeal to me. It, apparently, appeals to you. You've said before that at least with Clinton, you know what you're getting. "Imperfect relationship" and all that. If that's what you're willing to settle for, go for it. Some of us think we all deserve better.

[bravenak]

199. Him personally?

By thinking 1960s was enough to connect with me as a black voter. By refusing to discuss race outside of the class boundaries he has in his thinking. By associating us with ghettos, jails and poverty without discussing the other seventy five percent of us.

We have race issues that have nothing to do with money like that woman whose son was suffering lung disease and had been on bedrest all summer, she asked him to discuss the trash burning facility. He actually said no 'what we are goinb to discuss is...', that showed that he did not have the understanding to deal with our issues. What he discussed with her was poverty ahd youth unemployment, she is a middle class black business owner who wanted t discuss that trash plant that they put into her middle class BLACK neighborhood.

That is the problem in a nutshell. He talks at us, not with us.

[JTFrog]

208. So much ^^This^^. n/t

[sheshe2]

305. From RW sources to boot. nt

[treestar]

92. Yes like citing any Bernie faults

At all. That is trashing Bernie and gets hides.

It's even been called bullying to post polls favoring Hillary or math showing Bernie's chances are slim now.

The question remains as to how the exaggerated claims about Hillary are going to convince anyone.

[TCJ70]

113. That behavior isn't right, either...

...and I would never say it is. I would say that the bullying comments may come from the tone of the posts, though. How you say something is definitely important, especially with the "math" posts.

As for exaggerated claims, there really haven't been many at all.

[Empowerer]

313. You don't even have to cite his faults to get hidden-just asking a question they don't like

or can't answer is enough.

I simply asked for details on what Sanders had done to fight for civil rights, that required him to take any political or personal risk, in the last 50 years - and got hidden twice and eventually banished for it.

[LexVegas]

8. Its what sore losers do? nt

[bravenak]

10. True

[Duckhunter935]

45. At least his supporters did not whine

And have to get the rules changed

[stonecutter357]

87. .

[sheshe2]

307. ...

[Duckhunter935]

311. I know of, you do like

The truth being exposed. As you with 5 hides that is now able to post due to those rule changes. Hell, there are some with 10 hides that were posting as now there are no consequences for insulting other DU members.

[Dawgs]

49. LOL! So, what do you expect when call Bernie Supporters names?

For them to switch to Hillary.

Hmm, honest criticism of Hillary versus calling people 'sore losers'. I'll think I stay on my side.

[99Forever]

12. Perhaps they know that...

...being willfully blind and deluded to the truth isn't a good or smart way to go though life.

[bravenak]

20. Or they are presumptuos and some are tone deaf

And a few a unapologetic paternalists

[99Forever]

61. We have laid the tools of truth at your feet.

It's up to you to pick them up and use them. Remaining blindly misinformed is a choice, not a given.

[bravenak]

65. And I gave you all advice months ago to prevent this but you all failed

[99Forever]

144. No you haven't.

All you have done is snipe, smear, goad, and bait.

Intellectual honesty isn't in your wheelhouse.

[bravenak]

147. I told folks to 'stfu' and nobody did

[99Forever]

149. Exactly.

Learn anything?

That's a rhetorical question. No need to answer.

[bravenak]

150. I learned that they do not take good advice and lose badly

[99Forever]

183. Thrn you really haven't learned anything at all..

[bravenak]

189. Ditto...

[99Forever]

210. Oh, but I have.

I've learned that trying to have a civil adult conversation with some people just isn't possible.

[frylock]

218. You told people to stfu, and were disappointed when they didn't heed you?

You poor thing! How rude of people to not stfu.

[bravenak]

219. I know.

[frylock]

220. I'm sure that's how things work in your world.

[DemonGoddess]

13. K&R!

Well said bravenak!

[bravenak]

39. Good morning!!!

[Adrahil]

14. #Bernielogic

The best part is when they insult HRC voters by suggesting they are right-wing, stupid, ignorant, or that they have Stockholm syndrome. Classic propaganda technique: "you're not like THAT, are you?"

[bravenak]

21. It is so damn annoying!

[Dawgs]

50. But calling Bernie supporters sore losers is fine.

Works both ways. But, not surprised that you wouldn't see it.

[bravenak]

55. Sore losers is the same as broadbrushing a whole race as stockholm syndrome victims?

When did bernie fans become an oppressed minority? They cannot call out racism and broadbrushing and targeting of black folks because somebody called them sore losers? Bad outreach.

[Dawgs]

83. What?

You need to get out more or get thicker skin. A small minority of Bernie supporters is going to stay racist and stupid shit, just like some Hillary supporters.

And, do the anti-semitic, ageist, or accusations of being a Communist comments not bother you from Hillary supporters? Has Hillary apologized for those comments by her supporters?

Why is Bernie the only responsible for a few of his supporters?

WTF!!

[bravenak]

91. Wat?

He needs to tell them to stop

[Dawgs]

95. Why are you concerned about the few Bernie supporters that are racists and not hers?

Interesting but not surprising.

[bravenak]

100. If she has them they are silent

[Dawgs]

103. They weren't silent when they booed the young black girl for asking Hillary about "Super Predators".

I guess they don't count, huh? Or maybe the young girl doesn't.

[bravenak]

112. Oh like how his fans went after a civil rights hero by the name Of John Lewis?

Or the entirety of blm? Forgot that?

[Dawgs]

123. John Lewis is above criticism when he makes an dumb comment? OK.

BTW, he's my congressmen and I love the guy. But, those comment were stupid. And, that's probably why he apologized for them. Or, do you agree that Bernie wasn't actually involved in the civil rights movement?





And, what about BLM? They aren't perfect either. There cause is great, but that doesn't mean they're not above criticism.

[bravenak]

125. I watch folks calling him sell out and house nwords

IS THAT CRITICISM??? Huh?

[Dawgs]

129. If people did that, then they are wrong.

I wasn't talking about those people because I didn't know they existed.

And you still choose to ignore all of the bigotry from the Hillary side. Oh yeah, you haven't said anything about the young black woman that was booed by Hillary supporters. Wonder why?

[bravenak]

132. Booing? Like how BLM was booed and harassed by bernie fans?

You want links about marginalizing and booing blm I HAVE PLENTY AND NOT FROM THE HILLARY SIDE! Her side has been MILD in comparison. Mild. Tame. So bland it's like baby formula.

[Dawgs]

178. "I HAVE PLENTY AND NOT FROM THE HILLARY SIDE". Of course you don't.

It wouldn't fit your agenda.

[bravenak]

180. Yeah?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251502640

This one is special:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251687330

The replies to this op:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026999627

Click the link on this op and you will see it was retracted, but it got full throated approval:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251505656

This one accusing BLM of trying to wage WAR one white liberals. : http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251503212


Attacking BLM protestor for her HIGH SCHOOL BACKPACK BUTTON.: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027060303

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251506368

[840high]

281. A Clinton supporter called

Bernie a crusty old Jew. Another Clinton supporter called Bernie a sonaofbitch. Did you tell them to stop?

[bravenak]

283. When?

[bravenak]

284. I was suspended. I remember. How could I say anything when i was alert trolled out by his fans?

[840high]

286. Did Hillary tell them to stop? Anyway -

enjoy your week-end.

[bravenak]

287. Did you ask her to? Because I sure asked the Bernie Campaign to at least notice and say stop.

Nobody got back to me but I got fundraising emails instead. So corporate. It felt very transactional.

[Bonobo]

15. What has been your purpose in attacking Bernie? nt

[bravenak]

18. What was the purpose in so many folks treating black folks like crap for months?

I want him to SAY SOMETHING!!! I say dumb ass shit that I fucking regret. And I am sorry for it. I want THAT. No parade. No grand ball. Just a simple acknowledgement that this stuff is not cool and should stop. I want people to stop saying there is nothing wrong with it. I can at the very least admit when I screw up, I upsets me that others can see how hurtful stuff is and continue doing it and refuse to stop.

It is hard enough to deal with the regrets I have over my own dumb ass mouth but if people were acting in my name, even worse that I act? I would be heartbroken.

I want him to notice what people are doing in his name and for him to say stop. No sorry. No apology. Just say stop!

[Bonobo]

23. Bernie is enormously vocal in opposition to racism.

I don't know why it isn't enough.
He does better than most people. Much, much better.

[bravenak]

36. I told you

I want him to say something about THIS SHIT GOING ON IN HIS NAME. How do I know he has my back if he cannot even see what is going on in his name?

[Bonobo]

47. He isn't god and it looks like honestly only a tiny percentage of posters even here at DU are

guilty of this Stockhom Syndrome thing.

Should I expect Hillary to come out and tell her supporters to knock off anti-semitic comments about how "Jews hate blacks so much"?

Know what I'm talking about?

[Dawgs]

51. Good luck with that. This one doesn't listen. n/t

[bravenak]

53. I told you I am sorry for my big dumb ass mouth

All I want us for him to say stop. Not even a sorry. Just say something. But the idea that only folks like me have to apologize is fucked up. It is like peopke think there is a certain amount of racism black folks deserve to deal with and if they ever say one fucking stupid thing they can never ever complain again. That is fucked up.

[Bonobo]

54. I seem to remember an OP about how Bernie did tell his supporters to behave.

I don't have the link.

[bravenak]

58. On sexism not racism

He needs to pay attention. This shit has gotten so out of hand that there is no way to NOT notice it.

[Bonobo]

77. I feel you, but I think your perceptions MAY be coming in through a filter.

For example, if you fill your computer screen with tweets, OPs and FB posts from people saying over and over that something is a certain way, then that is all you see.

Furthermore, let me be totally clear.

We are SWIMMING in a world of racism. SWIMMING in it. It is everywhere and you have to know it is NOT isolated to Bernie supporters, right?

So if you're "feeling all this love and non-racism" from White Hillary supporters, let me break it down for you. They are just as racist as anyone but they have the advantage of not having to feel frustration because THEIR lily white candidate is not being supported by black people. In other words, it is easy for them to look like pure and perfect little non-racist snowflakes.

Honestly, you wanna know what makes me the absolute sickest? It's seeing people act like allies of black people in smug, patronizing, ways. Makes me fucking sick. You wanna think you're all surrounded by perfect little non-racist people on Hillary's side? Have at it. It's bullshit.

You're swimming in it and you know it. Things are the way they are right now, but please quit acting like it isn't that way among Queen Hillary's people too.

[bravenak]

88. You think I do not know this?

What is better though if you are swimming black in a white supremacy pool? A person who will swim with you regardless of their internal biases or those who let their frustration push their biases to the fore continuously? We both know I have my frustrations and let them out and feel shitty as hell about myself for days, weeks, months and years even sometimes. But that is because I feel the pain of it daily.

I'd rather have to deal with folks that are tamping down on their bullshit and trying to learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others than to feel that punch in my gut a thousabd times a day from those who are supposed to be on my side.

It is not a fair world and we have to make our way through it. But the internal biases and racism in the world do NOT MAKE IT RIGHT when our allies do it. Other folks shit stinking does not make mine smell good.

And as people in the majority who do not have to deal with racism everyday, why the hell is it okay to take their frustrations out on us daily just because other people are racist or they think they are using us or whatever. Tired of being pawns and punching bags and told it is okay for us to be punched because the other guy wants to punch us too and those folks over there beat our asses and those folks sold us and those folks destroyed us, so fuck it, nobody ever has to do shit or say shit or even stop it and apologize. Because we are black and racim exists so it is fine to argue with us about how much racism we should handle.

[Bonobo]

93. Yeah, but you're blaming Sanders for shit he doesn't deserve to be blamed for.

And in doing so, I think you're backing the wrong candidate.

That's just my opinion.

Fuck, man, do you know how many assholes there ARE on the internet, on youtube, facebook, everywhere?

WTF do you want to base your vote on what social media anonymous fucksticks say anyway?

[bravenak]

106. I base my vote on who I think will have our backs

I base it on how they treat us during the dampaign

And if he had our backs this would not be an issue because I'd have nothing to complain about. Hell, if he cleaned up his ranks maybe then I would notice if she has issues, but the issues from his side are so GLARING that hers are hidden in the limelight of his.

And yes. I blame him for not having us there at that damn regatta!!
And for witing to invite us to the revolution already in progress like we were afterthouts that would just follow his 'grassroots' like we aint got our own minds.

[Bonobo]

107. Looks more she offers her back.

[bravenak]

110. She would offer my black self her hand and a job

Dont sleep on me.

He aint offering me anything but a dream and no way of getting there

[KittyWampus]

205. He isn't god. He's a presidential candidate. With a staff. Who are responsible for handling stuff

JUST like this.

Both releasing statements in Sanders name and bringing things to his attention so he can speak to it.

But then there's the tone set by Sanders himself.

A lot of it stems from the man himself.

He's done little in Washington really, but he has spent a lot of time trashing the Democratic Party AS A WHOLE and equating it with Republicans.

[Jarqui]

157. "What was the purpose in so many folks treating black folks like crap for months?"

That made me think of this: "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone"
I'm not very religious but that seems to apply here (not in a religious way)

My grandfather had a saying: "it takes at least two to fight". That's a good saying too.

I do not entirely agree with "What was the purpose in so many folks treating black folks like crap for months?"

I asked black people nicely a few times "what is the problem with Bernie?". It's a pretty simple question. I didn't get a straight forward answer. I got "you should know" or a bunch of talking around it. It was like pulling teeth to get a straight up answer. I asked a question respectfully, honestly trying to understand why blacks felt the way they obviously did about Bernie from their votes, and I didn't get many respectful answers back. I didn't treat any blacks like crap but I got some crap treatment when I tried to talk about it.

Am I going to run around and demand Hillary and the blacks apologize to me? No. It's a two way street and I encountered a chasm that some black folks didn't want me to cross. I figure they must have their reasons and they don't want to tell me as it's ultimately their business and their right to not discuss it. So I'll move on. I'm not going to continue and fight about it. They kind of said "This is our position. We don't need to provide you with a reason" and I have to respect that -even though I didn't feel good about it nor about the way I was responded to.

I preferred to understand their position and they preferred that I should not understand. When the opportunity arises, I'll try again sometime down the road.

From my perspective, it cuts both ways.

[bravenak]

162. Are you the victim of the oppressed minorities or had they answered that question too many times?

[Jarqui]

224. "Are you the victim of the oppressed minorities "

Last edited Fri Mar 18, 2016, 12:32 PM - Edit history (1)

It really shouldn't matter whether I am or not, should it?

"or had they answered that question too many times?"

How about "you can find the answer to that question ... here" ?

Making people shadow box to find answers does not help.

I sincerely wanted to understand what blacks saw or didn't see in Hillary and Bernie.

Blowing people off when they've asked a sincere question is kind of rude. Now, for a few hundred years, people have been worse than rude to blacks so maybe I'm just getting something back for what others did and are still doing. I'm not angry about it. As Obama said
http://obamaspeeches.com/E05-Barack-Obama-A-More-Perfect-Union-the-Race-Speech-Philadelphia-PA-March-18-2008.htm

"But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow."

It's just frustrating and disappointing.

True story: my sister turned me on to Obama after he announced. I knew little about him. I watched parts of the debates and was following the early primaries some. CNN came out with this exit poll or a poll in mid January 2008 or so that said blacks were not supporting Obama. They went on to discuss why blacks wouldn't support a "black man". I was rattled. "what are they talking about?" That's when I found out Obama was "black" I had always just thought of him as a wonderful man and his pigmentation never really registered - I never thought about it and why should I? I was upset with CNN for bringing it up because once again, we had to take something pure and nice and divvy it up into black and white. It was kind of like finding out there was no Santa Claus -I was so breathtakingly naive in my own little world.

I do not completely accept Obama as the "first black" president. I probably never will. Maybe to me, he's the first president who happened to have black pigmentation - that's as far as I'd go. Eight years ago, we stood together behind a man I continue to think is the best president we've ever had - handily. It may be easier for me to say the above because I have not been through what blacks have but I think that's the place we have try to get to - where MLK wanted us to judge a man by "the content of their character".

And that's how I judged Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. For me, Hillary's character was overwhelmingly and too frequently dishonest. Blacks obviously saw it differently. Someday, maybe someone will fill me in on why.

[kdmorris]

17. Why do Hilary supporters think trashing Bernie will make us switch?

We are allowed to criticize Hilary too...

[bravenak]

19. I don't. I do not care who you vote for.

[Fast Walker 52]

22. it's called primary politics and Hillary is a flawed candidate

It's not that complicated.

If you don't want to switch, that's your prerogative.

[bravenak]

25. Bernie is a terrible candidate

He has trouble with my demographic and it is very difficult to see how he could convince us to come out in november.

[Fast Walker 52]

28. the same way Bernie supporters will be convinced to vote for Hillary

because the alternative is Trump.

[bravenak]

33. Maybe

But after how we have been treated and labeled as ignorant, uneducated, stockholm syndrome victims by some, it might be a difficult thing to convince us that we should not feel a bit uncomfortable with the candidate who those few were saying those things in support of; if that candidate does not come out and denounce that type of rhetoric.

[Fast Walker 52]

57. do whatever you think is best

[bravenak]

60. Of course

[Bad Thoughts]

24. Why not reverse the question?

I've seen many posters, both supporters of Clinton and Sanders, treat the primaries like sport. They are not. There is no 11th Commandment in the Democratic Party that requires the loyalty. The Democrats are about principles, not personalities.

Do you know anyone who does this?

[bravenak]

27. No

Democrats are about building a coalition to WIN. Your idea of principles are differnt from mine and a party cannot be made on principe alone.

[Bad Thoughts]

43. There are principles at the heart of the party

The social state.
Transparency.
Political participation.
Humanist foreign policy.
Educational opportunity.
Oversight.
Justice.
Removing economic, racial and gender boundaries.

The Democratic Party works for the broadest segment of society. They are the legacy of FDR.

If you don't put those at the center of your politics, you really shouldn't call yourself a Democrat. You're just a sport fan, another person cheering on their favorite team.

[tk2kewl]

26. why do you think critical posts about Hillary

Are targeted at you? The Internet is a big place. I can't speak for others, but when post about Clinton i mainly do it so that the articles I link to get rated up on search engines.

[bravenak]

29. Did I say posts about her were targeted at me? No.

I am speaking of posts made TO ME. Or to black people. Which includes me.

[tk2kewl]

37. well, you invite argument

And again, re posts "to black people," I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are black people on the Internet that are not members of DU

[bravenak]

42. So

But if they broad brush black folks I am not allowed to say shit? Naw...

[tk2kewl]

48. I didn't say anything of the sort

You just seem so surprised that people continue to express their distaste for Clinton's candidacy on DU, and I offered the reason why I do so and some sspeculation as to why others might as well

[bravenak]

62. I care way more about how blacks are treated than about HILLARY CLINTON

But the idea that after how we were treated, people think they can just slam her and we will come running to Bernie and our mistreaters is galling as hell

[tk2kewl]

67. I can understand that

[SoLeftIAmRight]

253. hillary is not your friend

...

[Fast Walker 52]

32. also, there may well be people on the fence who are swayed by such posts

the fact is, I was much more pro-Hillary at the beginning of this process, and what I've learned during this season about her has been quite disturbing.

[Jitter65]

30. They have nothing else. nt

[bravenak]

35. Yep

[JaneyVee]

31. Trashing Hillary actually made me switch from Bernie to Hillary.

Before either announced my sig line was "BERNIE FUCKING SANDERS 4 PREZ!".

Yup, but now Im solidly in camp Hillary.

[bravenak]

34. Me too

It made me switch and become a very hard yes on Hillary voter

[Dawgs]

59. LOL!

[JaneyVee]

64. Another good example of why I switched.

Congratulations on losing voters for Bernie. Keep up the great work.

[Dawgs]

84. Good one. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

201. Could you point us to any posts illustrating your support for Bernie as president?

That would be very illuminating. Thanks in advance.

[forjusticethunders]

292. I didn't switch

But I can easily see why people would. I got bashed for even suggesting that Sanders's campaign had systemic problems with outreach to minorities, and I was treated like I was some sort of mouthbreathing Hillary partisan.

I am very convinced that Reddit and Reddit-like behavior lost this primary for us. It's easy to ignore and even go along with when it's on your side or not directed against you, but in reality, 4chan-style brigade tactics should NOT be part of a political campaign and we've been seeing that shit from Bernie supporters for a year now, starting with Netroots last year.

[Duckhunter935]

38. Why do you think trashing Bernie

Supporters will get us to vote for her, will not happen. In my red state it does not matter so for the presidential ticket I will vote for my preference.

[bravenak]

68. I do not care who you vote for

[Gothmog]

41. Great OP

[bravenak]

75. Thanks

[CBGLuthier]

44. Can we get an example of Trashing

If by trashing you mean mentioning she used to be a republican who supported a racist for president

Or perhaps all the ant- progressive things she supported such as NAFTA, DADT, DOMA. Her disdain for working families. Her years working for WalMart as they slowly destroyed the middle class.

Or maybe just her war mongering or her dishonesty or her praising Nancy and Ronald fucking Reagan.

Yeah, I "trash" her because I think she is a republican. I don't support republicans. The republicans have become nazis and many of the democrats, in particular both of the Clintons are actually old school 50's era republicans. They think the two party system means we have to swallow their shit and most aggravating of all tell them we like the taste.

[beachbum bob]

46. same reason why hillary supporters trash bernie...and his supporters. Its primary season!

[bravenak]

74. Yeah i do not agree

[Renew Deal]

52. They don't. They know it's over.

They're getting their last shots in.

[bravenak]

73. Well, damn!!

It's like armageddon

[JoePhilly]

108. + 1

[Armstead]

63. Why don't you just put us all on ignore, and focus on beating Trump?

Easy. Problem solved.

[bravenak]

71. No

[Vinca]

66. Maybe people trash Hillary because so many here trash Bernie on a neverending basis.

What goes around comes around. If you want a civil conversation, try being civil.

[bravenak]

69. I already had my share of what comes around

[Live and Learn]

70. No bashing, simple truths. Just want to make sure you know who you are voting for.

Iraq War Resolution supporter

Welfare Reform supporter

NAFTA supporter

TPP supporter

Crime Bill supporter

Takes money from private prisons, Wall Street, bankers and other corporations.

[bravenak]

72. Better her than they guy who never notices how his peeps treat us

[Bonobo]

80. Her "peeps" are only letting you in the back door cause you're voting for her.

Don't fool yourself.

[joshcryer]

86. "letting you in the back door"

[Bonobo]

89. They know she doesn't even fucking support Clinton but let her into that OTHER site

because it suits their purposes.

Don't be so naive or so politically correct that you can't utter the truth, son.

[bravenak]

97. They know I will caucus for her this month and thats what matters the most

They do not care if I am not In live with her.

[Bonobo]

104. Yeah, it's called using the fuck outta you.

And the kicker is that it doesn't mean a thing to them.

Kiss, kiss, love you girl, You're the best! I love you too. Hugs. Hugs. Hugs.

Bullshit all around.

It's like HS. You're on their team and it's all lovely kisses. Just don't pretend their shit doesn't stink please.

[bravenak]

114. Like you all wnt to do but cant

I told you I know the game. We pawns but not bernies damn pawns.

[joshcryer]

116. An inch.

That's all AA people strive for. Even in their striving they gotta be reminded with loaded terminology like that. Yet they're still the most reliable bloc out there. And it damn sure isn't because they're ignorant.

Why don't you have a gander at this thread while you're talking that way.

[Bonobo]

135. I speak to Bravenak like an adult.

Because I see her as one.

I don't give you that much credit.

BTW, how is your magnum opus going?

[joshcryer]

142. "I speak to Bravenak like an adult"

[Bonobo]

146. Looks like you're not all that well-equipped to write a book, Josh.

posting little smilies is perhaps better suited to being a professional Tweeter.

[joshcryer]

165. "letting you in the back door" = pinnacle of maturity

Suggesting "they" would welcome bravenak speaks to a level of ignorance on her behalf that is beyond laugh worthy, and feeds the very sentiment that you're actually attempting to decry. Look at her transparency page for fucks sake.

At least my drunk hides were worthy of being hidden.

[Bonobo]

171. Words!

I applaud you! But you're trying too hard and I think you shouldn't "overwrite" in an attempt to make yourself look smart.

Please re-read that sentence you wrote above. If I were your editor, I would just scratch the whole thing out. It's filled with mistakes.

"Suggesting "they" would welcome bravenak speaks to a level of ignorance on her behalf that is beyond laugh worthy, and feeds the very sentiment that you're actually attempting to decry."

I don't think you can even SAVE that sentence. It's on life-support.

[joshcryer]

179. Maybe being spoken to as an adult is too much?

You're literally inviting bravenak to "be welcomed" to the very people who have repeatedly kicked her from the site over nothing. How is that not "letting her in the backdoor"? It's the same thing, only in this case, you actually are doing that, because you know damn well that these people will not welcome bravenak in any sincere capacity. It's simply impossible. She's someone who got threats in the mail for crying out loud.

But hey, you can feel free to be my post-editor and rewrite what I wrote so it makes sense to you, since you seem to want the job.

[Bonobo]

200. No, I am already a professional writer, Josh.

I wouldn't accept the job your editor.

Now two final points before I say goodbye.

1. In vino veritas: Your "drunk postings" revealed much more of your true self than you normally allow and were a better reflection of who you are than your stuffy prose.

2. Are you unable to see how your jumping to "defend" Bravenak speaks to your own unexamined patronizing, condescending, paternalistic attitude? Do you think her incapable herself of speaking up about how offensive my language to her was? You didn't even ask her before inserting yourself into our conversation. That is the very height of insulting privilege and disrespect. No, I have an actual open dialog with Bravenak. I see her as a person and I respect her, faults and all. I hope and trust the feeling is returned.

She does not need your help, Josh. Get that through your head and you will have gained something valuable about how to actually respect people.

[joshcryer]

206. I wasn't trying to help.

I was showing how you weren't actually sincere and your own posts bore that out. It was ignorance at its finest. As if I have to come to bravenak's aid on anything here.

But fantastic baiting attempt in the other crap you wrote, I do say.

[Bonobo]

207. Well you failed at even that small effort.

And in doing so you unintentionally acted patronizing, condescending and paternalistic.

[joshcryer]

209. Yeah, I'm so sure she'll agree with you.

After you educamacutated her about how she'd be "welcomed into the fold" as it were.

[Bonobo]

213. Ask her. That's called a dialogue as opposed to a monologue, son. nt

[bravenak]

90. HIS AINT EVEN DOING THAT MUCH

[Bonobo]

99. The fuck they're not.

You're looking at assholes! And judging by that yardstick.

Pick another yardstick!

You think you wouldn't be welcomed with joy on this board by Sanders supporters? Of course you would.

[bravenak]

101. Oh hell th fuck no I would not be welcome

They made that CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR

[Bonobo]

105. You're wrong.

First of all, there isn't any "they".

It is a bunch of individuals. I am one of them and I and many of us, I think, are working (like I know you are) to maintain relations even when the shit gets ugly.

Of course we would welcome you. And if they didn't they would have felt my white-hot wrath.

[bravenak]

109. They would have to clean out their ranks to get me

I do not put up with stockholm syndrome shit, calling blacks ignorant and uninformed and the confederacy or none of that shit. And I see that site has all the folks who are the guiltiest hanging out unabashed and unapologetic. No thanks. I cannot rub elbows with folks that think i am an ignorant backwater uneducated stockholm syndrome servant class idiot.

[JTFrog]

221. No, Bernie supporters are never going to feel your "white-hot wrath".

You certainly haven't spent the majority of primary season in time out because you turned your "white-hot wrath" on Bernie supporters. No sir, not many people gonna buy that.

Some folks were forced into time out with absolutely absurd hides. And some folks have been forced into time out with their absolutely vile posts.

There is a difference.

[Bonobo]

222. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1523234

[JTFrog]

223. Well done.

Is that the extent of your white-hot wrath?

But off topic... thank you for that link.

[Live and Learn]

85. You mean you prefer the one that smiles at you and makes nice while selling you out?

I don't see much difference.

[bravenak]

94. The others WONT EVEN BE NICE

[Live and Learn]

141. I prefer honesty to fake kindness.

I really hate being stabbed in the back.

[bravenak]

143. I hate being stabbed in the front too

At least be nice before you slip on the knife is what I say

[Live and Learn]

148. Sorry, buy you have a much better chance with the front. nt

[bravenak]

152. Unless i have a partner.

[Live and Learn]

155. They have an army. nt

[bravenak]

185. Then I'm probably a master sergeant by now

[Live and Learn]

192. They might let you think you are. nt

[bravenak]

193. Mind over matter

[Live and Learn]

197. The psych wards are full of people that try that. nt

[Dawgs]

98. ALL "his peeps" treat ALL AA'S the same way?

Wow!

[bravenak]

120. You are

[Dawgs]

126. I am what? n/t

[joshcryer]

214. Hey, was I acting patronizing, condescending and paternalistic above?

In my discussion with Bonobo?

[bravenak]

215. Of course not but he was picking on your writing

Our buddy willyt is banned.

[joshcryer]

216. My writing sucks.

But I wasn't trying to come to your defense or anything, I know you're a badass.

RIP WillyT, who's threads will be frequently kicked now?

[bravenak]

217. I dont let bonobo stress me out, lol

But as for the thread kickin... I'm actually stumped! I can think of nobody who would enjoy the notoriety as much.

[NurseJackie]

78. I doubt sincerely that "switching to Bernie" is their true objective or motivation.

Call me suspicious.

[bravenak]

115. I agree

Many are trying to cause more division amd are getting folks to cause their cndidate great harm.

[Trust Buster]

79. A classical narcissistic personality is not interested in converting others.

Value to a narcissistic personality lies in telling others that they are smarter than the majority and they are heroically enduring persecution for the sin of being smarter than the majority. (Drop mic)

[bravenak]

122. Boom!

[pdsimdars]

81. And by "trash" you mean what is normally referred to as "vetting"

There has to be some perspective. Bernie has brought out very important and fundamental issues regarding Hillary . . . . like the money and the votes, etc.
Hillary's campaign has resorted to lies and misrepresentation. . . even when it is shown to be a lie, she keeps right on saying it.
This isn't just Bernie supporters say one thing and Hillary supporters say another, I guess we'll never know. NO, every week Hillary comes out with at least new outright lie. Forbes, (not some left wing conspiracy rag) called her out for her LIE about Bernie and the auto bailout. And yet, she keeps right on saying it.
AND it is NOT a lie that Hillary has taken TENS OF MILLIONS in personal money and campaign contributions and refuses to release her transcript. Bernie released his.

[rock]

82. Bernie supporters are a lot like Bernie in that

There are quite a few things they don't get. I'm not going to elaborate as the Hillary supporters already know what I mean.

[bravenak]

117. We know

Same old same old

[treestar]

96. I think they know we won't switch and they know bernie

Is losing. So they are venting and hoping to make us feel bad somehow. It's about them and their feelings and as they believe, the incredible power of their one vote.

[bravenak]

118. It is horrible

[Sancho]

102. That's a good question, and there are logical answers.

1.) The bash and trash group are outlier personalities - that individually or in some group dynamic simply like to attack anything establishment; examples are on all political spectrums: Bundy ranchers, OWS, tree-huggers. They all have a mission, but express than mission by attacking others. There's no reasoning with them.

2.) There are paid trolls and operatives - beholden to the GOP, Koch Brothers, or the RW machine. They attack Hillary, not to change minds, but simply to weaken the progression woman who is smart enough and skilled enough to make them fear her. Those pretenders of Bernie support would attack Hillary and would have supported someone else if Biden or whomever were in the race.

3.) There are some who are anti-women, racists, anti-immigrants, or hold special interests (like gun-lovers) who see Hillary as representing their loss of privilege and they are very frustrated. They may be traditional blue-collar Democrats, but can't see past their own world as they like it.

Those are a few of the reasons I can think of for the crazy attacks on Hillary and her supporters. Most of the mainline Democrats won't change their minds because of the attacks. Many hate Bernie because of the association with the attackers.

[bravenak]

119. And then they get into groups and take over the conversation

Pulling people right along with them

[II-X-II]

111. When facts does not favor Clinton, you call it "trashing Hillary"

Yet, when Bernie's ideas are actually mainstream and plausible, backed by empirical data, everyone calls it "fringe" "won't work", "socialsm!"

See the difference?

[bravenak]

121. Oh please!

[Octafish]

127. "Trashing" as in telling the truth.

Which obviously must hurt.

[bravenak]

128. Like the fact that black folks are going eighty percent hillary has cause hurt feelings and outrage

[hrmjustin]

130. Good points. Criticism of both candidates is fine and appropriate but...

...Sanders supporters take it to a level thatnis just pure blood sport. It is the same on twitter. I tweet something nice about Hillary and use a hashtag and get several nasty responses saying how evil Hillary is. Of course not all are like that and I follow many good Sanders supporters.

[bravenak]

134. I just cannot even go on twitter

The comments are so bad I just wonder when we can have the damn internet back

[monicaangela]

131. Are you saying some of us Trash Hillary

While others criticize Bernie? What does Trash Hillary mean if not criticize her using her record. I don't believe people are trying to get you to change your vote, I believe they are pointing out facts that need to be considered when you make that vote. Take them or leave them, but don't complain, it is only another citizen just like yourself with views that differ.

[bravenak]

133. No

I am saying they are off the damn hook

[monicaangela]

138. They?

Do you have any examples?

[Autumn]

137. Yes. Bernie can be criticized, so can Hillary. Our minds are made up, no switching

Last edited Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:11 AM - Edit history (1)

no matter what shit is thrown around. It's all so silly, like people trashing Bernie and his supporters will get us to switch to Hillary. Our support for Bernie runs deep, no pretense there.

https://gfycat.com/ImprobableDeficientItalianbrownbear

[Chan790]

139. Don't care if you switch to Bernie...

the motivation is not to convince you to switch, it's to motivate other people to join onto the cause of taking back the party from Hillary's supporters by showing what a godfuckingawful possible nominee is being foisted upon us; one that may not win the Presidency...but if she does, is likely to preside poorly and as a hedge Republican.

You're misidentifying the purpose...which is to make the Democratic tent so hostile to Clinton supporters that if she loses the GE they're all long-gone into becoming independents or unaffiliated (or simply recognizing that they're the problem so they'll sit down and fall in line in the future behind candidates that are insufficiently conservative for them) before they can foist another terrible nominee on us in 2020 or 2024 when we're trying to take back the White House for actual Democrats.

Yes, we're still trying to get Bernie the nomination...but now we're also making efforts to take the party back from the kind of weak-liver moderates that would prefer a center-right incrementalist who puts Wall Street's interests ahead of the American public's.

We are allowed to make the argument that support for candidates like Hillary is destroying the Democratic coalition and effecting the agenda of a previous moderate and only-slightly-more-sane-than-their-current-racist/sexist/cisnormative/fascist/bloodlusting Republican party.

[bravenak]

159. And my job?

Is not not help him get the nomination unless I think he is aware of what is going on in my demographic. He fails to recognize the flaws in his movement and fails to direct his grassroots properly.

[Koinos]

140. Supporters and their Candidates

Supporters sometimes mirror the best and worst traits of their candidates. Sanders has been a no-compromise, "my-way-or-the-highway," and aggressive force for positive reform in the Senate. This demeanor is one reason many of his colleagues have not flocked to his side, despite the fact that they often agree with his "positions." Some Sanders' supporters have been no-compromise, "my-way-or-the-highway," and aggressive advocates in this primary. That is why these supporters are often so hard to get along with. Being tough has its good side, but it also has unintended consequences. I supported O'Malley, not only because I respected his principles, but also because I admired his temperament and his desire to get beyond "yes-and-no" infighting and to strive for genuine solidarity, respect for the dignity of all, and unity of purpose.

A small, but vocal, number of intemperate individuals want to "burn down" the Democratic party. Some few even threaten to vote for Trump or whomever in the fall, if their demands are not met. This is a tactic based on fear and extortion. O'Malley once said that no great country was ever built on a foundation of anger and hatred. Truthfully, if we define ourselves by our resentments and not our purposes, we make ourselves very small. We have to engage in community-building, not party-destroying. It pleases me that most supporters of both Sanders and Clinton feel the same way and want to find reasons to come together rather than break apart. We have seen how Trump has appealed to the worst demons in human nature. We can do better as Democrats if we appeal to the better angels of our human nature.

Let us all stop throwing food at each other and start finding reasons to have a beer together. We can work on reforming or rebuilding the Democratic party after the election. The progressive movement will continue and it will find other leaders besides Sanders. We can work for progressives in state and local governments, where it really counts. We can work to overturn Citizens United. We can regain a Democratic majority in the Senate. We can reform Wall Street and health care. But we can't do any of these things if we destroy the Democratic party, as diverse and contentious as it is. It is a flawed party, mostly because we -- including our candidates -- are flawed human members of that party. But, despite big money, we are still a "partial" democracy, where individual citizens still have a voice and a vote. We are "the many," and we can work together, step by step, to save our country. But we have to resist the temptation to look to a single strong leader or president to work that magic for us. That is the fascist way. That is the Trump way.

[bravenak]

145. MOM was the best cansidate

[Koinos]

158. Not many people saw him as he really was.

Thinking about him still brings a smile to my face. No other candidate does that for me.

[bravenak]

160. I saw him on tv the other day and cried a little

[Koinos]

175. I know how you feel.

He's working on voter education for people in states that require voter ID's.

He is actively supporting John Fetterman for the Senate in Pennsylvania:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12815615

In the fall, he will work tirelessly to get Democrats elected.

That is who he is.

[bravenak]

177. I want him as vp and then prez since he did not make it

[Koinos]

182. Realistically, I don't think either Clinton or Sanders would ask him.

I think Clinton wants Castro, but I don't think Sanders has thought about it very much.

[bravenak]

190. I'm fine with Castro but Martin needs to run in 2024

[Koinos]

191. He'll only be 60 by then.

But, at that point, I might not be at all.

[bravenak]

194. I hope you still are.

Because I like him. Maybe there will be a good job for him in her admin.

[tonedevil]

261. I've seen you say...

Senator Sanders is a terrible candidate because he is losing. Governor O'Malley suspended his campaign over a month ago, would he have done that if he was even a good candidate? Not that I expect any integrity or consistency out of you I'm just posing a rhetorical question.

[bravenak]

263. I like MOM

He was good with working with the black community and had Sanders not been in Martin still would. Which I would have prefferred since I liked him. Handsome too.

[gordianot]

153. Politicians deal in influence and leverage.

Primaries are the time the baggage comes out. They carry water for those who truly own them. Both Sanders and the Clintons carry water. It appears that the Clintons carry much more water with Wall Street and the banks. Citizens United and the influence of big money is here to stay. It matters who funds you. Benevolence is NOT a prevelant human quality as Apes our alpha leaders demand obedience and we are expected to follow it is in our DNA. The Clintons, Bush's live with very different rules than we do. Given slightly different circumstances any of us would be as callous and disingenuous. Every so often a human breaks from the demands of their animal nature and tries to find a different way they sometimes become something special (such as Nelson Mandela) or a religious leader. In a few generations they too will be relegated to legend.

[whatchamacallit]

156. I'm told the primary is over and you won, so why does this OP exist?

Oh wait I know why...

[bravenak]

163. Oh. I will get this settled

[whatchamacallit]

170. I doubt it

but I'm sure you'll get your jollies.

[bravenak]

172. Not as much jollies as folks got from treating me bad

[whatchamacallit]

173. Well it is ALL about you

[bravenak]

174. I better be about me nobody else gives one fuck except my fam

[asuhornets]

161. I agree totally...n/t

[Sunlei]

167. I still have optimism the 2 will team-up. I hope they both learned lots from each others supporters.

My Yin and Yang Dream Team would easily steamroll over any Republican.

[cherokeeprogressive]

176. I don't think anyone who supports Bernie Sanders expects Hillary Clinton supporters to "switch".

We know Hillary supporters are way too emotionally invested in seeing a female President; especially when their perception is that she's been mistreated all her adult life. Mistreated by the press, mistreated by her husband, mistreated by the Watergate legal team even and that's just the tip of the iceberg when her supporters talk about how she's been treated.

Criticize Bernie Sanders all you want. Sanders' supporters aren't in it for "history" or any kind of "gender justice". If anything, WE'RE the pragmatic ones.

[bravenak]

181. Okay

[Koinos]

198. To switch or not to switch...

"I don't think anyone who supports Bernie Sanders expects Hillary Clinton supporters to 'switch'."

But they do expect Hillary Clinton's superdelegates to switch?

[cherokeeprogressive]

211. Who's "they"?

[ladjf]

187. Nonsense. nt

[Silver_Witch]

202. Exactly how I feel about..

People who are rude and bash Bernie - do they believe the are helping Hillary? Of course not. People just are heated by the primaries and will all settle down once they are over. Give ittill June and this GS will be better!

[salinsky]

203. I'll switch to Bernie in a heartbeat ...

... if he wins the nomination.

No regrets.

But, it doesn't appear that is in the cards.

[bravenak]

276. Me too

[revbones]

204. It would seem that for your OP to be true you should replace "Bernie" with "Hillary"

but then I'm guessing that isn't the goal here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

212. Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. John Quincy Adams

[Lil Missy]

226. Immaturity, sore loser behavior. n/t

[EndElectoral]

227. So trashinh Hillary is unacceptable, and we must be allowed to critcise Bernie, is that it?

[ismnotwasm]

228. I have no idea

Anymore than why people act like I'm supposed to believe conspiracy theory politics or one-dimensional political analysis about Hillary. I don't get it. I'm never going to get it.

[bravenak]

239. For real

As soon as shit starts sounding CT, i get the fuck away

[ismnotwasm]

278. Me too

I slip right out.

[Herman4747]

229. If we see that Hillary's messed up, we have 1 Dem left. n/t

[Kip Humphrey]

230. Why do people act like trashing Bernie will make us switch to Hillary?

I conclude with

We are allowed to criticize Hillary.

[reformist2]

232. I'm not "trashing" her. She really is an awful candidate.

[MaggieD]

233. The non-stop smears of her have made me LOATHE Bernie

And to discuss why he should not be president with every person I can. So far I have converted 6 people.

[bravenak]

237. Made me not want anything to do with his revolution

I also have been getting converts. Only way to end it is for her to brake the brakes off em

[MaggieD]

240. Exactly

[Beacool]

234. It's counterproductive.

The more nastiness they throw her way and at her supporters, the harder we work to make sure that she's the nominee.

[bravenak]

238. I agree

Just like bugging blacks folks made even more of us turn out. For HILLARY

[DisgustipatedinCA]

241. Why do you get to demand answers when you write things like this:

I cannot stand him. His fans are racists who run around calling blacks racist and wonder why we hate him and them. I don't even LIKE Hillary but I will vote for her just so his fans can feel the sne BERN that they have been passing out.
Look at the racist comments here. I did not know jews hated us blacks so much. Good to know. I will return it in kind. There are so few of them It's a wonder they have the gall to think about being racist against blacks.

Bravenak, Frontpage Mag 6 Comments [3/11/2016 4:32:30 AM]

--

What is this, bravenak? I saw that you already admitted to writing it in another thread. Why did you say it?

[bravenak]

243. I talked about this upthread with bonobo

Go find it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

245. I will go find it. In the meantime...

Don't you EVER bring that racist pile of shit here to DU. Whatever I find upthread isn't going to erase that.

[bravenak]

247. Oh please!

Like i would! I'm not a fucking unabashed jerk. I feel like shit when im wrong unlike MANY HERE WHO WILL CONTINUE LIKE THEY ARE GOLDEN
And for you, who has made PLENTY OF QUESTIONABLE POSTS, I think you should clean your own closets first. I clean mine.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

248. I don't write racist posts, here or anywhere else. YOU do. I do not take correction from you.

And yeah, I read that you said you were sorry. I also read that you hate Jews.

[bravenak]

249. Hate? I dont have hate.

I dont even hate people who are racist to me. And you damn sure have made posts of that nature and I damn sure remember.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

251. You said the words, bravenak. You said you would return it (and it refers to hate) in kind.

That's naked, open racism, and it's wrong, and a simple "I got angry; sorry" is insufficient.

[bravenak]

252. I said I would because I was a stupid fucking asshole

But i wouldnt and wont and have not unlike so many here who will try to use tgat as an excuse for their own behaviour. And yes you have to during this summer, i saved the links but will not use them against you. Because they are old and im seeing if you have changed.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

255. Bring your links.

I had 5 hides, and was released from time-out one day early. 3 of those hides I deserved. 2 of them were alert stalking. We can diagram those if you'd like. Or we can look at my old posts about a fucking idiot Palin voter interrupting Bernie Sanders on stage. Whatever you want to find, I'm not going to hide from it, and it will IN NO WAY compare to what you said.

All that aside, it was at least sporting of you in your most recent post to say it was wrong. I know you also said so upthread, but erasing something like that takes some doing. I appreciate that you took responsibility for that. Bon weekend.

[rhyden77]

246. Hillary

We think that someday a Hillary supporter will wake up and discover she is bought and paid for. She has lied and changed her mind on so many things. She is now copying Bernie on a lot of issues. We don't want you to change your mind because we trash Hillary. We want you to change your mind because Bernie is the only one who can serve our best interest.

[bravenak]

250. Yeah right

Bernie cannot even beat her let alone republicans

[DemonGoddess]

254. Yep, we allowed to criticize, as are

Bernie's supporters. But criticize, not smear, which is what I see most often from Bernie supporters.

Criticism can be discussed. Smears are garbage.

Love your post bravenak!

[bravenak]

256. I agree

It is the constant smears against any and all who do not support their guy

[DemonGoddess]

274. Exactly!

Smears don't add to the conversation. They just piss people off.

[Politicalboi]

257. No, not switch

We just don't understand how you guys don't care about transcripts, FBI investigations, soliciting for Hillary at polls, Wall Street money or lies. If Bernie had all that going for him, I wouldn't support him. I wouldn't want him holding my candidate up if he faced possible indictment. And to have him get the nomination and then get hit with testifying and possible charges.

I really thought I could support her at one time. But seeing how they do things, I can't.

[bravenak]

258. Because we see that stuff as bullshit

Distractions. Slander. Garbage. It has been going on since I was 11 damn years old and Bill was prez and I am immune to any attacks against her.

She aint gon be no damn indicted for no fucking emails. That is a hype bubble from folks who constantly reinforce each other and create a monster in their minds.

And the deification of sanders is why I cannot give him the time of day. Folks deify him and demonize her and I'm black so I know that fucking game.

[Politicalboi]

262. Have you been paying attention to those e-mails

Going behind Obama's back with Blumenthal. Is that acceptable? I voted for the first time at 31 for Bill Clinton, a big mistake, I was aware of all that was happening during their time in office. She has more baggage than Bernie. Everybody knew she had baggage from the start. Don't complain if that baggage gets unpacked.

She never should have been the choice in 2016.

[bravenak]

266. Oh jesus

She is not a perfect person and since I damn sure aint either, I try to be more circumspect. She supports obama but has differences of opinion.

She may have more baggage than bernie, but she also has a better relationship with the democratic party, obama, black voters, the establishment (those super delegates), and has changed on many things for the better over time.

Bernie lacks a party structure than will back him fully since he has railed against it. Has not much relationship with the president who I love and who he wanted primaried. He has no real relationship with my community and refuses to discuss the issues when asked in open forums, prefferring to never stray from his stump. He has a history too and has not been vetted for national office. He is brusque and standoffish, rarely writes any legislation, has no signature legislation, issues with tone deafness and a problem directing his camp properly. His foreign policy is nearly nonexistant and consists of 'I voted no on iraq.'

This is just silly.

[Scootaloo]

260. Hi Bravenak

I just want to pop by, say that I'm sorry. For all of it. dunno if you can see it, maybe someone will tell you if not.

Let me know if you're ever down my way sometime. We'll do rips 'n' ribs or something.

[mcar]

264. K&R

[Rob H.]

267. Why should anyone take that question seriously

given that it's being asked by someone who's a member of the wretched hive of scum and villainy that is hillaryclintonsupporters dot com?

[bravenak]

268. Because they do

[Rob H.]

273. Then maybe they should've recruited a non-hypocrite to ask it nt

[bravenak]

275. No

When I fuck up I apologize. That's how you know what type of person you are dealing with. Those who fuck up and refuse to acknowlege it but point out others flaw are the actual hypocrites. See? Easy to tell them apart.

[HassleCat]

269. It does make me feel better about Sanders in comparison

Certain aspects of the "trashing" consist of pointing out how the Clintons use their foundation as a tool for political influence, how Hillary Clinton supports capital punishment, supports a ban on third trimester abortions, opposes single payer, insists her support for the Iraq war wasn't really support for the Iraq war, and so on. If she were the only Democratic candidate, I would have to blow off these criticisms, hold my nose, and say, "She's better than a Republican!" See how that works? This is pretty much what we'll be doing in the next few months, trashing Trump to convince voters to switch to Clinton. If it doesn't work, we're in deep doo-doo, to use a term coined by a recent president. That's what political campaigns do.

[bravenak]

272. Ok

[doc03]

270. If anything their trashing Hillary has made me

support her more. I can get all that crap from Fox News don't have to come here.

[bravenak]

271. Me too

Made me switch to her

[basselope]

280. I love how citing her record = "trashing"

[840high]

285. Yes. Hard to take this OP seriously.

[AgingAmerican]

282. Pure Projection

[bravenak]

289. Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

[That Guy 888]

290. I've read repeatedly that politics is a contact sport, is that no longer true? n/t

[bravenak]

291. If it is I feel for the opposing team

They are dish it out cant takeiters.

[snowy owl]

293. Facts = trashing?

I don't read every single post but most of what I read posted by Bernie supporters include facts over opinion. At least it seems that way to me. I've read lists both supporting and opposing Hillary and Bernie although not many posts really factually opposing Bernie I have to say it. Few posts factually denigrate Bernie. So why do so many Hillary supporters say that? If you can post an objective set of facts that show issue by issue that Hillary is better or more electable, I'd read it. I'd take it seriously if it were really factual. It has to be issue by issue. Climate, education, fracking, wall street, encironment, immigration, foreign policy, isis, poverty, civil rights, etc. Have at it. But what I read on the part of so many Hillary supporters is some mythical love for the 90s and emotional loyalty. If you are believers in a centrist/right society when the difference between rich and poor is less important, I get that. But tell us. If that is your strong belief, defend it. That's all I can say.

[riversedge]

312. Many of what I see are RW talking points--not all.

[jfern]

294. Why do people act like lying about Bernie

and telling Bernie supporters they must all be sexist and racist white males will make them want to vote for Hillary in November?

[bravenak]

295. I have no idea what you are going on about

[jfern]

296. The insinuation that Bernie supporters are all white male BernieBros

who have a race and gender problem.

[bravenak]

297. I already said they were not all men

[Jamaal510]

298. Seeing some of

his supporters trash her was one of the main things that soured my opinion of him and pushed me over to her once O'Malley dropped out. She has an extensive resume as a Senator and as SOS, and has been loyal to the party her entire adult life.

[bravenak]

299. Yeah. It was so bad I think they may not have realized how they looked.

[area51]

300. Interesting question.

But as others have pointed out, why do some Hillary supporters think that trashing Bernie, and things like single-payer, will make his supporters run for Hillary and follow her?

[bravenak]

302. .

This tactic is tired

[sheshe2]

308. Please explain why single payer

never made it in Vermont? Hmmm, to expensive.

Yet BS is going to give it to the whole US of A? Okay.

So when are the millions hitting the streets for his REVOLUTION and how many years will you be there? Change sure does not happen in a day.

[Scootaloo]

301. Well, see, we lived in this pixie dust and fantasy world

Where records and actions and stances and positions and such matter. Our mistake. Turns out that we were actually coming into a reality TV "survivor"-style show with the results weighted according to one's place on the US' ethnic caste system.

We'll keep it in mind. Next time we'll try to nominate Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho.

[AZ Progressive]

306. Wow, this is pretty clueless

I really have no intent in trying to convert Hillary supporters, they are hero worshippers.

[Cha]

309. lol bernie is flawless doncha know.. and any mention otherwise will be alerted and has been

hidden too many times. That's their admission right there that BS isn't as pure as they want the country to believe.

Hillary supporters who dared to post the reality of sanders had their OPs hidden and subsequently were place on suspension.. but, no more. Skinner stopped that little game right in its tracks.

Yeah, they think they're so good @ trying to shut people up but it's backfiring as things do with bad intentions.

[DemonGoddess]

310. Thank you Cha!

[Bluenorthwest]

314. I'd never try to change the minds of persons who are down with this:

Clearly they have selected the candidate that is best for them as Reagan Democrats. They are conservatives and that's what they are as well as who they are.