2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary and Bernie, two great candidates
I am Bernie supporter, but if you read my posts they are generally in defense of Hillary, and sometimes critical of Bernie. I don’t see this race as black and white. I don’t see Bernie as the great Democratic Socialist hope who leads us into a land of plenty or the ignorant idealist who will get nothing done. I don’t see Hillary as the consummate politician who will rewrite Washington or as the Darth Vader who will leave us in misery and embroiled in war.
This is a race between between two great people.
Bernie since his youth has maintained democratic socialist principles, and his principles were a strict litmus test for his action. Even his compromises often came after largely one-man-battle, such as his fight for single-payer health care. For most of his career, he believed in states’ rights. On issues like gun control and gay marriage he believed those should be local decisions. I think that was pragmatic, given his political position. He played a major role in creating the only liberal rural state in the nation, though Washington and Oregon are starting to come on board.
In his role, he had an advantage. He started with a liberal state with a largely homogeneous population, not only in terms of race, but in terms of Wall Street’s influence, of church influences, and even of big media influence. He did not face a strong Christian right or political right. But, to the extent possible he demonstrated in Vermont that progressive principles can work, and work very, very well.
Hillary traveled a different course than Bernie. She started as a Goldwater girl, but then went to Wellesley, the famous feminist college in the Boston area, and corresponded with the great community organizer Saul Alinsky. By her early 20s, she was a liberal Democrat. After she married Bill, she became an advocate for children and families. From there she moved up the ranks of the political establishment, arriving at the place she is now, the frontrunner in the Democratic Primary for President and an archetype for a woman president of the United States.
Throughout her career, she was to the left of center, earning her friends among women, blacks, Latinos, gays, and unions, even though she had her share of missteps and defeats. She has been driven by broad liberal goals and the pulse of her constituencies, not by timeless rock-solid principles. She does not shy away from difficult choices and cannot be beaten down by the machinations of her political enemies. She has been an active part of all the positive that has come out Washington, DC since the 1990s.
Bernie and Hillary are two great candidates. Both will change the United States for the better, but they bring very different qualities to the table. Hillary brings her toughness and the power of the Democratic establishment to wage political battles for political change. Bernie brings his integrity and the power of a social movement to effect political change. Hillary's goals are more liberal than left, and Bernie's are more left than liberal, but these two candidates are far from opposites. They might have very different approaches for bringing about change, but both of them have histories showing that they aim to make our society more equal, just, and safe.
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PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
gainesvillenole
(121 posts)I'm a Hillary supporter, but I like and admire Bernie as well. Whomever wins the nomination will enjoy my full support.... Keeping the White House is the paramount goal!
insta8er
(960 posts)I believe that Hillary is as dangerous to the world security as any of the republicans, she has proven her hawkish stance and what it can do to the certain regions of our world. The havoc she has caused and the human lives she has destroyed makes her in my eyes unfit to even run my daughters girl scout group.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... Bernie is an unknown, and frankly the oppressed would probably not be very enthusiastic about him since his foreign policy is essentially libertarian and his economic policy protectionist. He would leave the victims of ISIS and the Taliban largely to their own devices, even though the United States created the mess in the first place.
insta8er
(960 posts)Because Hillary thinks it is in the US best interest...perpetuating the constant wars and economic decline of this country. Bringing instability to the world as a result. Yeah..great candidate, if you are in the war business.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... how many deaths by ISIS should there be before the US gets involved? I don't think there are easy answers, but I do support Obama's policies more than I support Bernie's or Hillary's. I don't agree with Bernie's libertarianism and America first foreign affairs policies, and I don't agree with Hillary that we need to do more than we are currently doing.
Hereiam2005
(23 posts)And he was a huge interventionist among an overwhelmingly isolationist nation.
Even before Pearl Habor, FDR sent huge amount of aids to Brittain and Europe.
Isolationism doesn't work anymore. And protectionism will only weaken your ability to compete, ruining export through tit for tat tarifs, and drive up domestic inflation.
Doesn't take a degree to get all that.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)There is no way FDR would have outsourced your industry abroad; whereas the Dupont, JP Morgan, et al, fascist cabal that had tried to co-opt Smedley-Butler to lend his popularity and authority to their intended, traitorous coup, would have done so in a flash.
staggerleem
(469 posts)Are you not aware that "Libertarian" and "Liberal" have grown to take on very conflicting definitions lately? Or is a SINGLE vote on the side of the gun manufacturers all it takes to brand one forever as a wild-eyed 2nd amendment crazy in this election cycle?
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 21, 2016, 08:32 PM - Edit history (2)
Bernie is pretty libertarian in the modern meaning. He's closer to Gary Johnson than he is to Barack Obama. My point had nothing to do with gun control. I recognize he's from a rural state so historically has supported state rights and some gun rights, just as Hillary represented a state that depends heavily on international commerce, so historically has been more sympathetic to Wall St. than has Sanders. I don't fault either of them really. That's politics. But, I do mean that Bernie is quite libertarian on foreign affairs, defining libertarian more along the lines of Gary Johnson than Rand Paul.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)she rejoiced to invade and smash to rubble on a zero pretext, and others in the pipeline* for sure.
So, in what countries is she quite popular ? The word, 'quite' here can cover a multitude of sins. One or two of the more cynical European 'statesmen'? I'd be surprised if they exist outside the more cynical byways of politics and the major national military-industrial complexes. Don't her hawkish, raptor-like predations on easy prey disturb your conscience ? Well, predators don't risk going for the strong and healthy in nature, do they ?
*An unfortunate choice of word, in the context.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)She is well known around the world -- so is cancer.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)and unfortunately, I don't think you are being sincere, or else you are badly uninformed.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)I think most Hillary and Bernie supporters are sophisticated enough to dismiss political talking points that are spoon fed to them by the opposition. Looking objectively at their overall records, both of them are quite good.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... you come off as naive. I urge you to find some objective sources and maybe you won't have such a childish black and white view of the candidates and understand why there are so many great progressives on both sides of this debate.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Tone down the sanity and rationality a bit there.
LAS14
(13,769 posts)Response to Onlooker (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)seem to defend Hillary and even attack Bernie or his "bros" then in a week or two just like Bernie's political director they find the light and switch sides...........
marmar
(77,053 posts)...... I've got to admit, it will be with little enthusiasm.
I canvassed for Mark Schauer in the last governor's race here in Michigan. And I noticed that during my appeals to people at their doors, my pitch was all about how awful Rick Snyder was, not how good Schauer will be for the state. And that's a terrible sales pitch when you're trying to convince someone to vote for your candidate.
And that's where I'm at with Hillary. My support for her would entirely be based on, 'we've got to keep the psychos and semi-facsists away from the White House.' There are few things about Hillary Clinton that I find particularly inspiring.
So again, I will definitely vote for her. But I just don't see myself volunteering or canvassing, because it would be a completely unconvincing acting job.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)Do some research on Hillary. You need to know who she is, not what the repubs have been repeating for decades.
marmar
(77,053 posts)Perhaps you should do the homework
navarth
(5,927 posts)Bernie supporters have been brainwashed by all the Republican talking points because we're so gullible.
This is something you spread on your crops, not on me.
marmar
(77,053 posts)Psyops don't work on thinking people.
liberal from boston
(856 posts)IMHO, Hillary supporters are worried about Bernie. I suggest you watch Cenk's video of how Senator Sanders is giving the Democrat establishment a big headache: Here is the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017342623
RANGERMAN89
(91 posts)When I see Hillary tell bold faced lies in a attempt to get votes and ruin the reputation of someone who has more integrity then she ever had. Me disliking her has nothing to do with the RW and everything to do her being a sleazy liar about almost every issue I care about.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)Thanks. I too will vote for whoever gets the Dem nomination. I can't help but wonder if the Hillary attackers are really just repub trolls. All they do is repeat RWNJ hate talking points. The repubs have vilified both Bill and Hillary since the 1990s. I just saw a new poll where young folks did say they would vote for Hillary if Bernie doesn't get the nomination. Any true progressive will realize that this is a movement. It has to be built on for it to work. Winning the White House in November is the first step. Then think Supreme Court. Finally when we have the Senate and one day the House all our political ducks will be in a row. Then watch all the progressive bills fly to the President's desk! This is exactly how FDR got so much done in his first term. He had a huge Dem majority to work with. So ignore the Hillary haters. They are both politically naïve and clueless.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)by her policies and her record. We've had a long time to know her, as much as an onlooker can. That's the problem--we know her all too well. She is not a true progressive. There is no reason to trust her judgment about the things we care about, or to believe she can do anything to improve the lot of the average American.
But we DO have a candidate who has proven that he is as good as his word. And we LIKE his words. It's a choice toward the positive direction now, not in a few more years, and a few more years, and a few more years..........have you noticed that addressing the problem of economic inequality really cannot wait? That addressing climate change cannot wait? People are hurting.
You will see what I mean if Hillary gets in. We will be watching progressive bills flying out the window...
appalachiablue
(41,103 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Sounds like you also know some things not to like. I do not admire Hillary Clinton. She has tenacity, for sure. But a whole lot of negatives. These days people mistake it for strength. I shudder at her (their) repeat presidency.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)and one who will never get a vote from me.
Amimnoch
(4,558 posts)I can't help but notice how many of the replies that accept your reach out are not of the camp that supports the same candidate you do, and those who accept your assessment come from the one you don't.
K&R. It is very refreshing to see some more sensibility and rationality coming from those who support the candidate that I don't. You're not alone by any stretch, I've seen others, but your fellows who are a bit more.. Verbose.. Could take a lesson from you.
I have to continually remind myself that the posts here do not reflect the words of the candidate. If they did, I'd likely refuse to vote Sanders come the General.
Autumn
(44,980 posts)
I think it's cute when people say I'm a Bernie supporter, but... Onlooker
(5,636 posts)I'm a Bernie supporter, but in this forum I think it's important to defend Hillary against outlandish attacks. Calling her a neocon, a Wall Street shill, corrupt, blaming her for the deaths Benghazi, attacking her for supporting the Arab Spring, embracing Patriot Act thinking to attack her use of email, etc. is just nonsense. I support Bernie, and certainly a minority of my posts and recs have been pro-Bernie, but I also appreciate the fact that Hillary has considerable support among oppressed groups, whose opinions I highly value. I also have lived long enough to understand how the Clintons operate. They have operated in conservative times and play politics very, very well. Bernie has operated in a liberal homogeneous state and played politics very very well. But, again, I truly value the opinions of gays (which I am), blacks, Latinos, and women, a majority of whom support Hillary.
Autumn
(44,980 posts)I have defended her but I don't go around saying I support Hillary but... Your rec page for the most part is pro Hillary. I guess you haven't noticed the bogus attacks on Bernie. You have a nice day, and by that I mean have a nice day.
Hereiam2005
(23 posts)While supporting Bernie, an can't support Bernie while criticizing some of his proposals.
You know that politic is not black and white right? You know that some people are not single issue voters, and Bernie's package may not fully address their concerns right? An you know that a take it or leave it attitude is not going to win any election right?
Seriously this is turning dangerously close to a Bernie cult of pesonality.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Onlooker
(5,636 posts)I like Hillary a lot, but support Bernie. The attacks on Bernie are small and petty, and hardly meaningful. The attacks on Hillary are broad and far-more mean spirited. Almost no one's calling Bernie a racist, even though he has very little support in the south, yet many Bernie supporters are suggesting that Hillary is racist. Almost no one is calling Bernie homophobic even though he only supported states rights with regard to gay marriage, yet many Bernie supporters are calling Hillary homophobic. Almost no one is callling Bernie a war monger for supporting the stealth bomber, a gun nut for supporting some rights, or a vigilante for supporting the Minutemen. My impression is that some Bernie supporters are casting far harsher judgments on Hillary than anyone is casting on Bernie. I voted for Bernie and contributed to him, but I really don't like a lot of his supporters -- especially the straight white male asshole alpha males, many of whom will probably vote for Trump along with the other 36% of millennials who support Republicans.
merrily
(45,251 posts)
shadowandblossom
(718 posts)For standing up.
merrily
(45,251 posts)
Ino
(3,366 posts)that is very telling!
The last "Bernie supporter, but" that I checked out had Hillary Clinton Group as his/her favorite group.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)I disagree with the title of the thread.
salinsky
(1,065 posts)... I will happily and enthusiastically support either of the Democratic candidates.
And, I am convinced that the vast majority of Bernie supporters who really are Democrats will do the same.
It's the glibertarians and third party enthusiasts who have gravitated to his campaign who are sowing the seeds of discord.
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)You nailed it.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)
LostOne4Ever
(9,286 posts)Hereiam2005
(23 posts)Seriously you need to speak out more often.
I like Sen. Sanders a lot, but many of his self proclaimed supporters are such zealots I can't find myself even trying to understand his positions (which themselves are hard enough to figure out since they are so drastically different)
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)There are a lot of good Bernie supporters here. It's just that the obnoxious ones are so loud.
wryter2000
(46,023 posts)I tend toward Hillary but, like you, I think we have two great candidates, and I'll be proud to vote for either.
DrBulldog
(841 posts)... Hillary and Donald who have the worst COMBINED unfavorability rating in over fifty years.
An election race between two candidates that absolutely suck.
And these two were nominated by an American people who also suck at their responsibilities as citizens.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)I think both are decent politicians but, candidates? No. Both have a lot of negatives.
spooky3
(34,405 posts)
TomCADem
(17,382 posts)This time I am actually more concerned about what is happening on the Republican side, because Trump/Cruz are just crazy. Water boarding, mass deportations, repealing the ACA, the Republicans have continued to get more and more crazy.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I am Bernie supporter, SO, even if Bernie was not in the race, I doubt I can vote for a candidate who loves war and fracking and the TPP and is generally, IMO, kinda shifty.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)which fails to obscure the falsity of it.
SHe's not "great" unless we're talking about for the MIC http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/hillary-clinton-goes-full-neocon-at-aipac-demonizes-iran-palestinians.html and assorted others, like those who'll benefit from her opposition to singlepayer
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)that you would have Hillary supporters agreeing with you and Bernie supporters disagreeing with you. And what do you know? I was right.
As a Hillary supporter, I have been accused of inciting hatred and discord (I challenge anyone to find any post of mine that is not polite and civil). And yet, why do most Hillary supporters here say they will support Bernie, but most Bernie supporters say the most vile things about Hillary?
Of course there are rude people on both sides, but there seems to be a LOT more disunity on the Bernie side.
Just my observations. Good post.
mountain grammy
(26,598 posts)looking forward to voting for him again in November.
yardwork
(61,538 posts)If we had proportional reccing on DU I would give this a 1,000. I would give up all my recs for a year to rec this thread.
merrily
(45,251 posts)For the record, Bernie's compromise on ACA was with Democrats, not Republicans, and included billions of $$ for health care for people who would otherwise not have received it.
Also, I disagree that Hillary is either left or a liberal, a word she has never used or accepted to describe herself. I disagree as well that Hillary has always been left of center. She went from Republican to center right until the prospect of running against Warren or Bernie caused some changes in her 2016 primary stump speech. I think a distinction between "left" and "liberal" is meaningless. Left and liberal are both left.
As for you, since your OP makes that an issue:
Supporters of Sanders on this board have had a great of experience with posters who claim to support Bernie but whose whose posts "generally" consists of defending Hillary and "sometimes" criticizing Bernie, as your own OP describes you.
I just searched DU for your screen name and Bernie Sanders, something I recommend to all supporters of Sanders when they have any doubt about a poster claiming to support Sanders. According to the first hits I got, you are someone who posted Bernie should stay in the race to generate more interest the race (to benefit Hillary). Someone who concludes that Hillary is more tarnished than Bernie only because "Bernie never fought the fight," and Hillary did. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511221133
A poster who asks which is worse, Bernie saying accurately that a rep. of BLM told him he does not know what it is like to live in a ghetto, or Hillary saying falsely that the Reagans were trailblazers battling AIDS. And then seems to reach a very false equivalency. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511475551
I bet if I look at more of the hits I get when I do a DU search of your screen name and Bernie, they will all or almost all be in that same vein or very similar.
You post very well, if not very often since you registered in 2002. However, your posts seem to me to be totes pro-Hillary with disingenuousness about your even handedness.
If I turn out to be mistaken, I will apologize. Until then, I'm taking a PASS.
nikto
(3,284 posts)will be in charge of several major Progressive initiatives, after the election.
The Progressive Wing of the Democratic Party should absolutely insist on this at the convention,
(should Bernie come in 2nd) or threaten to leave the party.
JMO.
IrishEyes
(3,275 posts)I favor one of these candidates but I will vote and campaign for whichever candidate gets the nomination.
randr
(12,409 posts)and we should all be shouting praises, while holding both of them to our principles.
We must not be afraid to ask hard questions and we must be prepared to honestly acknowledge the answers.
Mary Mac
(323 posts)An amicable campaign can only counter the oxygen sucker that is Donald Trump. How does running a reality show prepare him to be commander in chief?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I've already voted for Bernie. I'm looking to the General now. I know Bernie still has a chance, but I also know the strong likelihood is that Hillary will be the nominee. I'm OK with that, and I'm very happy to vote for her over Trump.