Either neither of them stand a chance, or both of them do

[UtahJosh]

For those Sanders supporters who think "Trump will beat HER, but Sanders will crush him!" — you're delusional. Plain and simple. Vice-Versa for the Clinton supporters. Hillary doesn't stand a chance any more than Bernie does, if Trump's hate-wave manages to sweep the nation.

Either we the people will find him a repulsive choice and reject him outright—in which case it doesn't matter who the Democratic opponent is—OR he rides in on a wave of unstoppable, hate-fueled populism, unimpeded by "Bernie our Communist Friend" or "Hillary the Criminal Insider".

There really isn't much of a distinction, given the kind of campaign he's prepared to run. You could run these arguments through the thresher if it's Democrat vs. Cruz, Kasich, or "TBD"; but not Trump. Either he's going down in flames, or he's going all the way. There won't be any "close call" either way, and it won't matter who his opponent is.

There is an exception. But sadly President Obama (who could easily destroy Trump (again), humiliate him in the process (again), and make him "go home to mommy", never to be heard from again) is not eligible.

The President will, however, be firmly on the side of the democratic candidate. I look forward to seeing Obama wreck him all over again, all without ever once slipping down into the mud with him like so many republican failures have done thus far. And I look forward to doing so with Hillary Clinton OR Bernie Sanders, whichever fine politician wins the day on the democratic side.

[Arkansas Granny]

1. Absolutely agree. Regardless who wins the nomination, we will all have to pull together to get them

elected and it will likely take every vote we can muster. If we thought GWB was a poor choice, he positively shines when you look at Trump or Cruz.

I have children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, all of whom I love more than life itself. I do not want their lives to be influenced or harmed by either of the Republican candidates.

[IdaBriggs]

2. Disagree based on pre-existing publicity.

Bernie is being introduced. "New" in this case is better than old.

Trump is a reality television show star that was #1 in its slot for at least two seasons, with follow up on all the morning shows, etc. because it was entertainment. He was heavily edited to appear competent, confident, and "in charge".

Hillary has been the star of her own reality show since 1992. Her role was "First Lady butting into her husband's job inappropriately and failing" with her health care issues, followed by "cheated on wife in world's biggest sex scandal", then "carpet bagged Senator who voted to support a bogus war", then "idiot woman who can't keep the Republicans out of her emails/let hackers endanger national security while Secretary of State". All of her *positive* accomplishments get washed under the noise of her gaffes and failures.

Most people aren't actually paying attention to what any of them are saying or doing in the campaign at this point. By the time the candidates are picked, both Trump and Hillary will be "center" candidates, except Hillary isn't trusted by either the Right or the Left because she is a politician, while Trump's brand is Business.

Bernie's brand is "public servant" with the bonus of being an Independent who has been saying the same stuff for 30 years. He is grumpy grandpa and the Vermonters love him.

ON EDIT: Everyone has an opinion on both Hillary and Trump, who have people who actively HATE both of them. Bernie's haters are only hating him because he is running against Hillary. They might not agree with his policies, but they don't dislike HIM. At the end of the day, politics is a popularity contest - being smart is an advantage, but being personable is what wins.

My opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[UtahJosh]

3. That makes sense

I get your point, Ida, but I still think that Sanders—by way of his own insistence on self-labelling as a democratic socialist (WHY didn't he just call himself independent!?)—has negatives that Trump can exploit.

Very good point about the reality show, and how Trump has been propped up to seem competent all this time (which is really the biggest joke on his supporters, ain't it?).

[IdaBriggs]

5. Trump will be going for the jugular of ANY opponent and

Has the advantage of a strong understanding of media with minimal accountability. Let's walk through a potential attack:

Trump Says: My opponent, Tam Smith, has a history of throwing mud at dogs because my opponent hates dogs.

Our Guy Says: That isn't TRUE - I don't throw mud at dogs and I love dogs.

Media Reports: Dem Guy denies accusations of throwing mud at dogs and says they love dogs.

Public Hears: The Dems throw mud at puppies? Outrageous!

By the time the investigation occurs, the slur is already established and the next fake attack is in full swing. Trump can be as outrageous as he wants, because that gets the attention, and with Hillary, there is already a "she's a lawyer and will say anything for her client - too bad she has no convictions because as a lawyer, she doesn't give a crap about the truth, which she considers subjective depending on who her client is."

Bernie needs to be an FDR Democrat and yes, stuff will stick to him, but not as much as Hillary because in the eyes of the public, she's already dirty. I am not confident he will be able to beat back Trumps tipping by actually being a statesman, but Trump's demagoguery can only be beaten by integrity and personal conviction and maybe not even then.

As I said, one has spent the last ten years getting rich off of playing to the media. The other two - well, one is a public servant, and the other gives speeches to rich people at a quarter million a crack so everyone knows they are considering that an investment (which is an excellent attack for Trump - he donated to Hillary, and she came to his wedding, so he knows exactly how much a politician costs, because he owns her already....

[UtahJosh]

6. Good points all around IdaBriggs!

Thank you for your well considered thoughts.

I tend to agree that Trump can ONLY be beaten by statesmanship, or possibly statesmanship coupled with carefully considered mockery (in moderation). It's a tough sell, for sure, but there HAS to be some way to defeat this idiot. He is, after all, an idiot.

[basselope]

4. No.

First, Obama could not win a 3rd term. He bled 10 million voters from 2008 to 2012 and the GOP has only gotten stronger since then. He was saved by the absolute weakness of Mitt Romney as a candidate. Because while Obama got 10 million less votes, Romney got 3 million less than McCain. If you put McCain's numbers in 2008 against Obama's numbers in 2012, the GOP wins.

Second, so many people are making the mistake of completely underestimating what Trump is doing. I would never vote for him, but he's not an idiot. He is riling up his base, but at the exact same time making the shift towards the center. If someone told you 8 years ago the GOP front runner would be AGAINST the IRAQ WAR and using it as a talking point, would you have believed them? If someone you 8 years ago that the GOP front runner would stand on a debate stage and BLAME BUSH for 9/11, would have you believed them? Against the free trade agreements the GOP loves so much? Doesn't have a Super Pac?

Trump's voting block is not just made up of hate mongering racists and you would be crazy to make that assumption.. there are a large number of people planning to vote for trump because they want to burn down the system. They are sick of establishment politics and they take most of what he says with a grain of salt and are only interested in the fact that if Trump becomes president it will completely shake up the system. I have liberal friends who are planning to vote for Trump, b/c they think he is better option than where the democrats appear to be headed.


This is why Clinton is so weak against Trump.. she is the epitome of establishment politics.. the poster child for a Washington insider. She represents the system that 76% of the people think is the country headed in the wrong direction.

Sanders challenges Trump in a whole different way. In a Sanders v Trump election we ARE burning down the house. Then it becomes whose policies do you believe in? Trump will have a hard time shifting his position, b/c Bernie has been incredibly solid on his. As Trump tacks to the center in the general election, Clinton will try to call him out on his hypocrisy, which will just bring up the many instances of her hypocrisy. He can't do that to Sanders.

I would personally never vote for Clinton because of what I said before.. she represents the very establishment that needs to go. I wouldn't go so far as to vote for Trump b/c he has gone too far with his rhetoric.. but there are many who will forgive him his campaign tactics and vote anti-establishment no matter what.

[UtahJosh]

7. I disagree with some of your assumtions.

"If you put McCain's numbers in 2008 against Obama's numbers in 2012, the GOP wins."

If's and But's. You can't compare one election to another, especially one as historical as the 2008 contest (SURE, Obama had HUGE numbers and why would he NOT, being the first black president...and being such an historic event there were more than a normal share of votes for the other side as well...).

Obama is a hell of a campaigner, no question about it, and he rarely loses. If he ran a third term, I have some confidence that he'd do okay. BUT, he can't, so that doesn't matter HOWEVER, we know from experience that he's just about the ONLY guy capable of getting under Trump's skin SO, how can we use that angle to our advantage is the real question imho.