This may shock you, but Hillary Clinton is Fundamentally Honest: Jill Abramsom/ Guardian

[bettyellen]

Surprising coming from one of her harshest critics at the NYT:

"For decades she’s been portrayed as a Lady Macbeth involved in nefarious plots, branded as “a congenital liar” and accused of covering up her husband’s misconduct, from Arkansas to Monica Lewinsky. Some of this is sexist caricature. Some is stoked by the “Hillary is a liar” videos that flood Facebook feeds. Some of it she brings on herself by insisting on a perimeter or “zone of privacy” that she protects too fiercely. It’s a natural impulse, given the level of scrutiny she’s attracted, more than any male politician I can think of.

I would be “dead rich”, to adapt an infamous Clinton phrase, if I could bill for all the hours I’ve spent covering just about every “scandal” that has enveloped the Clintons. As an editor I’ve launched investigations into her business dealings, her fundraising, her foundation and her marriage. As a reporter my stories stretch back to Whitewater. I’m not a favorite in Hillaryland. That makes what I want to say next surprising.

The yardsticks I use for measuring a politician’s honesty are pretty simple. Ever since I was an investigative reporter covering the nexus of money and politics, I’ve looked for connections between money (including campaign donations, loans, Super Pac funds, speaking fees, foundation ties) and official actions. I’m on the lookout for lies, scrutinizing statements candidates make in the heat of an election."


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/28/hillary-clinton-honest-transparency-jill-abramson

[Sheepshank]

1. It doesn't fit the meme repeated ad nauseum here on DU

Repeated so often, that even Bernie supporters don't bother checking any more, they just buy into it hook, line and sinker.

[Agschmid]

26. Yup.

Up is down/down is up.

[leveymg]

37. Yes, when she says she's going to bomb and invade a country, she generally does.

Listen to what she advocates, she usually finds a way. Iraq Libya Syria Iran

[TheBlackAdder]

41. Most people are inherently honest, until you interfere with self-affecting desires. nt

[arcane1]

2. "Abramson, whose personal association with the Clintons goes back nearly 40 years."

"Little-known fact: The woman who led coverage of the Clintons at the Times for a decade — first as Washington bureau chief, then as executive editor — briefly worked as a consultant on one of Bill Clinton’s campaigns in Arkansas."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/jill-abramson-hillary-clinton-2016-221017#ixzz44E8pcFDb

[bettyellen]

10. Interesting she ran so many negative articles over that time then?

[RobertEarl]

33. Yeah but now?

I would say the author is being dishonest. Probably driven by misandry.

[bettyellen]

42. Straight out of the MRA playbook, that accusation. Interesting.

[RobertEarl]

52. What's MRA

A lot of the H support is misandry. "First woman president" stuff. Too bad she's not presidential material. Too dishonest and misspeaks too much.

Bernie, however, is very honest and direct, and isn't financed by Wall Street, he wants world peace, the drug wars to end, better and cheaper education, and better and cheaper health care for EVERYONE.

[bettyellen]

59. A bunch of dudes who think child support is evil and misandry is everywhere.

And that mail order brides are the solution.

[RobertEarl]

69. Tell ya what

Bernie is more of a feminist and extols feminist values more than Hillary.

So sad for your attempted MRA smears, eh?

[bettyellen]

70. When people automatically characterize the discussion of sexism as "misandry" I will call it out.

Just thought you should be aware of how you were coming off. And you are wrong about activism for women. Words are easy- work is harder. Hill has done the work for years.

[RobertEarl]

73. War is NOT a feminist value

Health care for all is. Education for all is.

I see you are reduced to using divisive smears. Don't you see how awful that makes you look?

You can't even debate the point that Bernie acts more feminist than Hillary. Shame for H.

[bettyellen]

77. What an interesting way to change the subject. He certainly wasn't a good feminist when

he bitterly denigrated Planned Parenthood. Nor when he asked people to "set aside" differences on abortion rights and focus elsewhere.

Anyone who tosses around misandry lightly needs a reality check.

[RobertEarl]

78. Obfuscation does not become you

Relegated to bringing up inconsequential matters when it comes to defending your candidate's femininity makes one's candidate appear weak and dishonest. Which IS the subject. Fundamentally so. Proceed. Keep digging.

[bettyellen]

80. I think this "misandry" you speak of is so imaginary as to be inconsequential....

but my reproductive rights are basic human rights, and mean everything to the future of women in America.
Femininity? Were you actually trying to say gender? Who cares about femininity in politics- that's crazy talk.

[RobertEarl]

81. Eh?

Femininity is crazy talk?

Man, er, woman overboard!!! Throw the life preserver!! Save Our Betty!!

Again... War mongering like H does, is not a feminine value. In that and so many other cases, Bernie is much more in tune with what women need. Like higher minimum wages.

When compared, H, next to Bernie, seems misogynist.

[bettyellen]

82. You appear to be confusing gender and femininity? Not well versed on any of this I guess.

Interesting mistake, coupled with your avoidance of discussing reproductive rights. Got it.

[RobertEarl]

83. War is equal opportunity death for all

Why do you avoid her war mongering?

Why are you obfuscating so badly?

The more you write the worse you look. You should probably log off and take a hike?

[bettyellen]

85. Wow, you'd love to change the subject, wouldn't you? Not doing it.

[RobertEarl]

86. You already did

LIS. no more of this stupid thread with you. In closing I will say you have not helped H at all. Bye now!

[ThePhilosopher04]

3. "Fundamentally" honest is a term to describe intellectually dishonest. She is a lawyer after all.

More shill for the Hill.

[bettyellen]

7. I'm cynical enough that I do not expect more from either of the candidates.

None of them are pure, each has made some very calculated decisions I dislike. It is what it is.

[ThePhilosopher04]

22. Bernie is not Hillary when it comes to intellectual dishonesty. Everyone knows that.

If they don't, they should, or are deceiving themselves.

[bettyellen]

57. Well on Youtube and Twitter, yes.

I have seen it repeated like a mantra here too.

[dogman]

8. Al Franken's "weasel words".

Before he decided to endorse "weasel words".

[BillZBubb]

4. No she isn't and there is plenty to back up that fact.

There are a lot of connections between Hillary's actions and big donors. Bankruptcy bill anyone? "Gifts" to the Clinton Foundation and subsequent deals with the donors, or the reverse timing just to keep the trail a little colder.

Coming under sniper fire is the classic, but that's too easy.

[dogman]

5. I beleive her when she says she can work with Republicans.

And that is what worries me. I've seen in their treatment of the President what they expect of working with them.

[bettyellen]

9. Probably only marginally better than Bernie could. With fellow Dems, I think she would do

better. Bernie needs to replace congress basically. That is a little bit of a problem.

[loyalsister]

75. And I believe she was being fundamentally honest when she voted in favor of leveling Iraq

She was on board the vengeance mentality with Bush. She all but said it when she mentioned that the fact that she represented NY factored into her decision.
We know she knew better. She was honestly just out for blood.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Kinda like saying that Marilyn Monroe was "fundamentally" a brunette.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

11. Depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is nt

[bettyellen]

12. Ah, a "Clenis" reference. I long for the day when Dems thought their marriage was no

one's business. Interesting it is "relevant" to some here again, after so many years.

[riderinthestorm]

19. Gosh, you were all over this thread telling Hillary supporters

To stop smearing the Sanders' marriage and to stop obsessing over their marriage. ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511588010

Oh wait, you didn't.

[bettyellen]

27. I defended Bernie there saying I understood why he did it. Nice try pretending I give a fuck about

their marriage. Never have, never will.

What a deceptive characterization of my posts there- but integrity is everything, right?

[riderinthestorm]

30. I wish you'd taken a bigger role in stopping the shit on that thread

and the rapidly multiplying others here.

I really find the attacks on spouses objectionable for all of them really.

I apologize for my peevishness at you. You're right you certainly didn't deserve that.

[bettyellen]

39. thank you! I knew you were a good egg. I thought it was a silly thread and a meme

that ultimately few people will give a shit about. If it was serious innuendo, I like to think I would have a serious response.
I hope so, anyway. We should not assume the worst of each other. I am voting for one of them too, and working for one of them in November!

[riderinthestorm]

46. .

[bettyellen]

50. I'm glad you'll be around and fighting in November.

[Major Hogwash]

25. Was that before, or after, the Dems passed DOMA in to law?

Ah yes, those great halcyon days, when only straight couples could get legally married in America and thereby enjoy more than 120 civil rights that LGBT couples couldn't.

[bettyellen]

36. a mistake, as it was to defer to "states rights" on the matter, as Sanders did.

Is his claim he was for marriage part of a Bernie lies video somewhere? Maybe it should be.

[Major Hogwash]

43. If I remember correctly, and believe me, I do, former Governor Howard Dean bragged about how . .

. . his state had instituted "civil unions" in Vermont while he was the Governor of that state when he ran for President in 2004.

Besides that, Bernie Sanders' position on same sex marriages was well known years before Howard Dean ever became the Governor because Bernie spoke out about this specific issue.

I hardly ever speak up for gays concerning their LGBT rights because they have spoken out about it far more eloquently than I ever could, with far more passion, and with far more conviction.

[bettyellen]

48. Sanders has talked out of both sides of his mouth on that one. He was slow to come around

to marriage, but supported civil unions earlier I think. He did not want to speak out on state issues.

[LAS14]

13. thanks!

[progressoid]

14. Her honesty (or lack thereof) isn't an issue for me. It's her policies.

[bettyellen]

17. Since she has voted so similarly to Bernie, I do not buy the "she is a republican" shit slung

here. I honestly have to wonder if people who say that remember actual republicans.
Or that they have been kicking our asses since the 80s - when they rebuilt their party from the ground up.

[progressoid]

23. Voting isn't really the best representation of ones positions.

Since bills are often a conglomeration of disparate parts.

[bettyellen]

24. Yep, that is true for the both of them.

[Herman4747]

15. This won't shock you, but no, she isn't.

[bettyellen]

40. Gotta love Trey Gowdy!

[99Forever]

84. And those are Hillary's most honest moments.

Lying liars gotta lie.

[nichomachus]

16. Putin is "fundamentally honest" nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

18. Neither the NYT nor the Clinton campaign get benefit of the doubt. They've lied too much for that.

I don't take advice about honesty from fundamentally dishonest people.

[bettyellen]

44. or Youtube, I do not rely on Youtube or Facebook memes.

We have a long shit list, you and I!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

49. More than we've listed, even.

Take any story on the Ukraine, for example. You need to read about 6 different sources to have a 50% chance of getting the actual story. Everyone has an agenda.

[bettyellen]

51. Yes! A long list....even usually credible sources screw things up.

I trust no one!

[Jarqui]

20. Nonsense.

60% of Americans distrust her because she has lied to them.

Look at the hidden thread on this site of all her dirty tricks in this campaign.

Look at the dirty tricks and lies of her 2008 campaign.

Look at all the videos on Youtube showing her lying and flip flops at opportune times to garner votes.

Look at the fact checking of her debates.

Look at her distortion of Sanders record in immigration, auto bailout, etc.

Look at the debunking of her lies in her first press conference on the email mess. And her lies about it since.

Look at the families of the Benghazi victims calling her a lair.

Sorry, they simply cannot all be wrong.

The Knight Foundation are tight with the Clinton Foundation and are the top donor to Politifact by a factor of about 10:1. I'm not going to get fooled by Politifact cherry picking which statements they examine. Want some evidence?:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/
Politifact grades Clinton's integrity about the same as Obama's. I doubt the majority on this site would believe that.

Did you know the Hillary Clinton is more honest than Joe Biden on Politifact?:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/


The Guardian has also been in the bag for the Clintons - as has much of the mainstream media.

There's no question in my mind that she's the most dishonest politician in a democracy I've ever encountered. No BS article is going to change my opinion on that. Not a chance.

[riversedge]

31. I am just looking at your silly post.

[ucrdem]

21. It doesn't shock me at all. Look at the examples they use to flog the meme.

Let's see, "sniper fire." And ... 99%!

[bettyellen]

28. and video of Trey Gowdy. If they would clean up their sourcing, I'd buy that integrity bit....

[riversedge]

29. It is no shock to me.

[highprincipleswork]

32. Wow, I wonder how so many come to a different conclusion. One definition of honesty occurs when

your actions match your words or your words on one occasion consistently match your words on another occasion.

Please, on that score, any objective observe cannot find a lot of consistency.

And when it comes to consistency in terms of being "Progressive". that is the biggest place where honesty is really in question. Not sure that is important to this forum here, but it is important to me.

[bettyellen]

53. I think the expectation that a politician ignores cultural shifts, and economic changes is pretty

strange. Being involved in national politics for 30 years means a lot of shit has gone down to change the landscape. I don't know that anyone thinks that being "consistent" since the 90s would have been better? Do you?

[highprincipleswork]

58. Too much shift is "shifty", and some shifty is just plain inauthentic at best or dishonest at worst.

[bettyellen]

61. I give a side eye to all the labels and name calling. But what would you call Susan Sarandon...

giving out purity tests after some of the candidates she has supported? That shit is crazy, and no one called her on it.

Could likely say the same for many people here, as most have supported people who are suddenly written off as "establishment". Writing off Planned Parenthood as "establishment"? Stupid move.

[highprincipleswork]

65. We are voting for President, and Susan Sarandon is not running. It's very serious, however,

who is.

Who is going to fight Climate Change, like the end of the world scenario it is quickly becoming?
Who is going to really fight for some kind of economic prosperity for all Americans, not just the few?
Who is going to keep us from our usual interventionist ways in too much war?
Who is really going to be steadfast in fighting racial injustice?

I know my answer, and I remain confident (through his actions and words over so many years) that he will remain true to all these causes.

[bettyellen]

66. I appreciate your POV, even though I may think differently in parts.

It is certainly going to be an interesting year.

[highprincipleswork]

67. Thank you. A strange year for finding the coalition that works.

[bettyellen]

68. It is going to have to work! The SC could screw us all for decades.

[Vattel]

34. Okay, now that is funny.

[polly7]

35. Yeah ....... that is shocking. nt.

[bettyellen]

45. Oh look- a witch in your sig line. How fundamentally creepy.

Welcome to DU.

[bettyellen]

55. The witch meme is creepy - as in a sexist trope that Sanders himself disavowed.

But some of you just can't help it, can you?

[BreakfastClub]

47. Right wing lies against Hillary have fooled many dems. Sad to see. I guess people

believe what they want to believe, and that includes democrats. Still sad though.

[IdaBriggs]

60. Yup - the Republicans don't trust, many Dems don't trust her, and

the Independents don't trust her.

Who will that leave to vote for her?

If you are afraid of "President Trump" you might want to join Team Bernie.

It's the pragmatic thing to do. Plus, we have cookies.

[bettyellen]

62. Well a few million more voters trusted her more.

This country is not as liberal as my area, and that sucks, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the cookie!

[amborin]

56. HRC has blatantly lied too many times for this to have any credibility

[Attorney in Texas]

63. Transcripts? Anyone seen any Wall Street transcripts? Did someone mention transparency?

[bettyellen]

64. You didn't skim the article? Says transparency is her achilles heel, it's interesting.

That said, I don't agree to holding her to higher standards than every other candidate- especially Republicans.

[insta8er]

71. Ill read this after I have finished that 12 pack, my wife also starts looking better after that.

[polly7]

74. ......

[shawn703]

72. Yet she needs SuperPACs and Wall Street money

[RufusTFirefly]

76. I'm shocked!

And stunned.

[beedle]

79. She's not dishonest ..

... she just has very bad judgment that causes her to make an amazing amount of poor decisions, and a bunch of trust issues that cause her to hide any evidence she has of her poor decisions and their disastrous results.

There you have it folks, real "Presidential material" ... for Iraq.