Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:08 PM Mar 2016

Regarding today's meme about Sarandon. Here's what she was really saying (IMO)

Today's meme against the Sanders campaign here and in the media seems to be aimed at the remarks of Susan Sarandon...who is one of many individual supporters.

I don't have an inside track, but here's what I believe she was saying -- in response to a question. I happen to agree with her analysis (or my interpretation of it).

The current status quo is NOT sustainable on many levels for many reasons. The necessity for fundamental reform and change is inevitable. It's just a matter of how and when that occurs -- and whether it will be positive and manageable or awful and disruptive.

Bernie is trying to bring positive changes through the political system now, rather than sweeping the underlying problems under the rug. That offers hope for positive change without the awful consequences.

But if we ignore the necessity for change now and elect a Democrat who encourages complacency and acceptance of the basic status quo, conditions will steadily continue to get worse over time -- until the consequences build up pressure for change that are unavoidable. If we keep kicjing the can down the road, the inevitable disruptions and changes will take forms that will not be very pleasant.

Trump, on the otehr hand, would be such a disaster that those pressures might build up more quickly and result in the unpleasant consequences and pushes for change sooner. That is not a desirable outcome. But it is possible if the forces he represents are ignored.


Obviously your mileage may vary, but that in a nutshell is what she was saying. And I agree with her.

83 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Regarding today's meme about Sarandon. Here's what she was really saying (IMO) (Original Post) Armstead Mar 2016 OP
Before the inevitable "Saying you aren't sure if you're voting for Clinton is voting for Trump" JonLeibowitz Mar 2016 #1
True, saying you're "not sure about voting for Clinton" is not the same thing as voting for Trump. DanTex Mar 2016 #7
You forgot to add "in my opinion". Others do disagree, as is their right. JonLeibowitz Mar 2016 #15
Where is the line drawn? revbones Mar 2016 #41
Agreed, I keep posting along the same theme, JCanete Mar 2016 #64
Trump, on the other hand, would be compelled to nominate Right wing Supreme Court Justices. Trust Buster Mar 2016 #2
But Obama just did the same thing? Gwhittey Mar 2016 #46
But that's her point. CanadaexPat Mar 2016 #53
If Trump were to replace Scalia and Ginsburg, a 6-3 right leaning Court would exist for 25 years. Trust Buster Mar 2016 #69
Sorry, Bernie Sanders. There is zero evidence of your ‘political revolution’ yet Gothmog Mar 2016 #3
Go ahead and focus on the Go Team Tiger Beat aspect of it Armstead Mar 2016 #8
Well look, it's not happening at the pace it could because you don't want it. JCanete Mar 2016 #66
Without these millions and millions of new voters, then Sanders campaign cannot deliver on platform Gothmog Mar 2016 #72
And, as Chris Hayes pointed out, this is pure Marxist/Leninist stupidity. DanTex Mar 2016 #4
Susan Sarandon never said she agreed. She was just echoing what she has seen out in the country. JonLeibowitz Mar 2016 #21
+ 1 JoePhilly Mar 2016 #22
+ 1 CanadaexPat Mar 2016 #54
the 1950s called, Senator McCarthy would like the red baiting back nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #59
You should write a furious letter to Chris Hayes. DanTex Mar 2016 #60
I am not the one engaged in red baiting nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #61
I'm sure Chris is devastated. How will his career recover? DanTex Mar 2016 #62
And I am sure you love him for the red baiting nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #65
Imagine Bernie Sanders wins the White House. Then what? Gothmog Mar 2016 #5
Many of them have voted for Sanders Armstead Mar 2016 #9
But as of today, Clinton has 2,526,500 more popular votes than Sanders Gothmog Mar 2016 #19
If you think things are fine and think they should continue as they have been, fine Armstead Mar 2016 #24
Again, the premise of your thread and the Sanders campaign requires millions and millions of voters Gothmog Mar 2016 #27
Miullions and millions of voters feel otherwise Armstead Mar 2016 #31
But in a democracy, the majority vote wins and Clinton has 2.5 million more votes Gothmog Mar 2016 #35
Actually this is so wrong for the US it is astouding nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #63
Your analysis is wrong as normal Gothmog Mar 2016 #73
Astoubding!!! nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #75
Popular votes is not correct measure of anything Gwhittey Mar 2016 #47
You are wrong in that you are missing the fact that Sanders' revolution is a flop Gothmog Mar 2016 #51
So if its such a flop, why don't you focus on attacking Trump? DemocracyDirect Mar 2016 #77
I can have an opinion about what I think she meant too. CalvinballPro Mar 2016 #6
We can all have opinions, no matter how much you want to distort the point Armstead Mar 2016 #10
Now you're just projecting at me. No thank you. nt CalvinballPro Mar 2016 #13
Here's what was said: one_voice Mar 2016 #11
If your house has destructive mold in the walls..... Armstead Mar 2016 #14
There's more than one way to fix the mold. one_voice Mar 2016 #17
The house shouldn't have to be torn down Armstead Mar 2016 #29
Letting trump win is like demolishing your house .... JoePhilly Mar 2016 #18
mold is not a small problem. ibegurpard Mar 2016 #26
Either were knocking the house down ... JoePhilly Mar 2016 #32
You call someone who will honestly tell you that you have mold and Armstead Mar 2016 #37
So if we nominate Hillary, you'd rather Trump just JoePhilly Mar 2016 #43
It's a question of which candidate WANTS to fix the mold Armstead Mar 2016 #74
When did she say "that is not a desirable outcome"- Chris tried to get her to disagree.... bettyellen Mar 2016 #12
+ 1 JoePhilly Mar 2016 #44
if someone on the left is an advocate and leaves it up to interpretation geek tragedy Mar 2016 #16
+ 1 JoePhilly Mar 2016 #20
That's fine if that's your opinion...but I think the reasons for her opinion should be.... Armstead Mar 2016 #23
Surrogates shouldn't contradict what the candidate says. geek tragedy Mar 2016 #30
Surrogates are individuals...I saw the mayor of Miami Beach Armstead Mar 2016 #33
the country lurched right in 1980. geek tragedy Mar 2016 #38
It has sucked on a more manageable and balanced and human scale Armstead Mar 2016 #39
LBJ=Vietnam=fuck him. geek tragedy Mar 2016 #40
the corruption has always been there, which is why one man alone cannot fix it. bettyellen Mar 2016 #49
Edwards was a shameless panderer who had superficial appeal geek tragedy Mar 2016 #50
Maybe they kick Hillary instead of themselves for being so very wrong? I see that happen in the bettyellen Mar 2016 #52
Corruption was rampant before Citizens United. I agree about a Constitutional amendment Armstead Mar 2016 #57
I agree that Vietnam was horrible, but I don't think we can sum up LBJ's entire legacy based StevieM Mar 2016 #79
Congress did all of those good things--though obviously he played a role in it. geek tragedy Mar 2016 #80
I agree about Vietnam. But LBJ was a legendary vote getter. And I don't think Congress would have StevieM Mar 2016 #81
you don't need t defend her ibegurpard Mar 2016 #25
And this is why you can't discuss anything one_voice Mar 2016 #34
You must be dizzy from all that spinning dbackjon Mar 2016 #28
I think it's simpler. Jarqui Mar 2016 #36
No doubt at all... ljm2002 Mar 2016 #42
That quote says it all Armstead Mar 2016 #67
Susan Sarandon is a hero! Peace Patriot Mar 2016 #45
Haven't seen you in a while Armstead Mar 2016 #56
Excellent post, Peace Patriot. polly7 Mar 2016 #70
that's what I got out of her interview too dana_b Mar 2016 #48
Susan JUST tweeted: dana_b Mar 2016 #55
Thank you for posting this! felix_numinous Mar 2016 #58
I've been hearing "It has to get worse before it gets better" for at least 50 years eridani Mar 2016 #68
The frustration underlying that cliche still exists...Things keep getting worse Armstead Mar 2016 #71
They know what she said Prism Mar 2016 #76
Thats is the way I heard it as well awake Mar 2016 #78
There are historical similarities to Nader/Gore/Bush 2000 Buzz cook Mar 2016 #82
Any reasonable person grasps that noiretextatique Mar 2016 #83

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
1. Before the inevitable "Saying you aren't sure if you're voting for Clinton is voting for Trump"
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:12 PM
Mar 2016

No. While I might not agree with the reasoning or the conclusion to not vote Dem, expressing an opinion on how you might hypothetically vote 3rd party is emphatically not saying that Trump would be better than Clinton.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
7. True, saying you're "not sure about voting for Clinton" is not the same thing as voting for Trump.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:20 PM
Mar 2016

Actually not voting for Clinton, though, is helping Trump win. And talking about not voting for Clinton is talking about helping Trump win. And saying you're not sure about voting for Clinton is saying that you're not sure whether or not you want to help Trump win.

In the General Election, there is only one morally defensible choice, and that's to vote for the D. Any other action is facilitating a Trump victory.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
15. You forgot to add "in my opinion". Others do disagree, as is their right.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:36 PM
Mar 2016

Who is to say one is more right than the other? (my personal feelings on the matter aside)

 

revbones

(3,660 posts)
41. Where is the line drawn?
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:40 PM
Mar 2016

While it's nice that you now seem to have changed from equating 0 votes to a magic vote for Trump, I have to ask - where is the line drawn?

You and others seem to espouse the mentality that you have to always vote for the D no matter what. While I don't think I've ever voted for a republican in my life and have for the last many years just done straight ticket, I am not motivated to vote for someone because of fear either. If someone has a 'D' behind their name, how much bad stuff can they do before you would say it was ok not to vote for them?

Also you guys don't seem to see the opposing viewpoint or consider that it may hold as much validity to someone holding it as your own viewpoint to you. As it's been stated many times here, there are many people that may not be able to vote for Hillary because of who she is and what she's done. That may not be your opinion about her, but it certainly is that of some people.

Browbeating them constantly over and over again by accusing them of either voting for or supporting Trump, simply by not voting for Hillary - should she win the nomination AND he win the nomination both of which have yet to even happen - does not seem productive.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
64. Agreed, I keep posting along the same theme,
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 10:13 PM
Mar 2016

and keep being told this is the Democrat bleachers.
 

Trust Buster

(7,299 posts)
2. Trump, on the other hand, would be compelled to nominate Right wing Supreme Court Justices.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:13 PM
Mar 2016

Them the brilliant Sarandon can watch as women's right gets kicked back 25 years amongst other issues. Not the sharpest tool in the shed to say the least.

 

Gwhittey

(1,377 posts)
46. But Obama just did the same thing?
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:51 PM
Mar 2016

And Clinton told us she was going to build on Obama's legacy so I assume she is going to appoint RW judges too.

CanadaexPat

(496 posts)
53. But that's her point.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:34 PM
Mar 2016

If that happened, she feels we would enter a post-politics phase where some kind of direct action would occur.

 

Trust Buster

(7,299 posts)
69. If Trump were to replace Scalia and Ginsburg, a 6-3 right leaning Court would exist for 25 years.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:19 AM
Mar 2016

Supreme Court justices receive a lifetime appointment. No revolution. The woman was clueless.

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
3. Sorry, Bernie Sanders. There is zero evidence of your ‘political revolution’ yet
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:16 PM
Mar 2016

The trouble with the premise of the OP and Sarandon's rather sad comments is that the Sanders revolution is not happening No one has seen any evidence of the so-called Sanders revolution https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/10/sorry-bernie-sanders-there-is-zero-evidence-of-your-political-revolution-yet/

Bernie Sanders recorded a resounding victory in New Hampshire's Democratic primary Tuesday. He crushed his rival, Hillary Clinton, with no less than 60 percent of the vote. If Sanders hopes not only to win the election but to achieve his ambitious progressive agenda, though, that might not be enough.

To succeed, Sanders might have to drive Americans who don't normally participate to the polls. Unfortunately for him, groups who usually do not vote did not turn out in unusually large numbers in New Hampshire, according to exit polling data.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=&w=1484

...As for Sanders, he credited his victory to turnout. "Because of a huge voter turnout -- and I say huge -- we won," he said in his speech declaring victory, dropping the "h" in "huge." "We harnessed the energy, and the excitement that the Democratic party will need to succeed in November."

In fact, Sanders won by persuading many habitual Democratic primary voters to support him. With 95 percent of precincts reporting their results as of Wednesday morning, just 241,000 ballots had been cast in the Democratic primary, fewer than the 268,000 projected by New Hampshire Secretary of State William Gardner last week. Nearly 289,000 voters cast ballots in the state's Democratic primary in 2008.

To be sure, the general election is still seven months away. Ordinary Americans might be paying little attention to the campaign at this point, and if Sanders wins the nomination, he'll have the help of the Democratic Party apparatus in registering new voters. The political revolution hasn't started, though, at least not yet.

Without this revolution, I am not sure how Sanders proposes to advance his unrealistic agenda
 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
66. Well look, it's not happening at the pace it could because you don't want it.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 11:19 PM
Mar 2016

Apparently there are a lot of democrats who don't actually like the idea of revolutionary change. Incremental is better, and speaking truth to campaign finance issues is a priority for another century. And many of you are doing what you can to make sure there is no revolution. You even go as far as to celebrate every stumbling block on the way to revolutionary change ... like this smug post. (or maybe its not and it just seems that way to me. If that's misinterpreted, my apologies)

I've heard too many people spout absolutely disingenuous crap about how what Bernie is saying "sounds soooo great, but tell me, how does he expect to do any of it," while they figuratively stick their foot out to make this movement stumble, whether talking about unicorns, besmirching his character or misrepresenting his record.

So hopefully it will happen, with or without those of you who don't actually want it. Yes, it probably won't, so I don't know, rejoice?

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
72. Without these millions and millions of new voters, then Sanders campaign cannot deliver on platform
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:59 AM
Mar 2016

It is the Sanders campaign that is promising millions and millions of new voters who are not showing up. Without these millions and millions of new voters, the the Sanders revolution is a joke and Sanders will be unable to deliver on his platform

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
4. And, as Chris Hayes pointed out, this is pure Marxist/Leninist stupidity.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:16 PM
Mar 2016

Making things worse (for people who don't live in multimillion dollar apartments) so that the "revolution" will come more quickly.

It's the same junk that Nader was peddling, except this time instead of electing W, they're trying to elect Trump.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
60. You should write a furious letter to Chris Hayes.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 09:18 PM
Mar 2016

Tell him about your prestigious journalistic accolades, I'm sure he'll be impressed...

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
61. I am not the one engaged in red baiting
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 09:30 PM
Mar 2016

and Chris and his channel no longer impress me. So there is that.

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
5. Imagine Bernie Sanders wins the White House. Then what?
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:18 PM
Mar 2016

The premise of the OP and the premise of the Sarandon comments are based on a supposed revolution involving millions and millions of new voters. Sanders' plans for adopting his proposals depend on these new voters. Here is how Sanders thinks that he will be able to force the GOP to be reasonable http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/21/1483791/-Imagine-Bernie-Sanders-wins-the-White-House-Then-what

Bernie Sanders has made some very big promises when it comes to his legislative priorities: He says he’ll make college free, pass a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United, and institute a generous single-payer national health insurance program. And when he’s asked how he’ll turn these promises into reality, he says that he and his supporters will help bring about a “political revolution.”

That’s a phrase Sanders uses often, but what does he mean by it? Sanders has said that if he wins the presidency, his victory will be accompanied by a “huge increase in voter turnout”—one that he thinks might end Republican control of Congress. But Sanders acknowledges that the House and Senate could, in spite of his best efforts, remain in GOP hands come next January.

Given that likelihood, Sanders offers an alternate means for achieving his political revolution. He says he knows that a Democratic president can’t simply “sit down and negotiate” with Republican leaders and forge a series of compromises. Anyone who's observed the GOP’s behavior over the course of Barack Obama’s presidency would not dispute that, and in any event, no compromise with Republicans would ever lead to single-payer anyway.

So what then? How would a President Sanders get Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan to pass any of his big-ticket items? This is the model he proposes:

What we do is you put an issue before Congress, let’s just use free tuition at public colleges and universities, and that vote is going to take place on November 8 ... whatever it may be. We tell millions and millions of people, young people and their parents, there is going to be a vote ... half the people don’t know what’s going on ... but we tell them when the vote is, maybe we welcome a million young people to Washington, D.C. to say hello to their members of Congress. Maybe we have the telephones and the e-mails flying all over the place so that everybody in America will know how their representative is voting. [...]

And then Republicans are going to have to make a decision. Then they’re going to have to make a decision. You know, when thousands of young people in their district are saying, “You vote against this, you’re out of your job, because we know what’s going on.” So this gets back to what a political revolution is about, is bringing people in touch with the Congress, not having that huge wall. That’s how you bring about change.

The rest of the DK article debunks that concept that Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell could be influenced by these new voters but we never get to this issue and Sanders himself admits that he will not bet elected without this revolution. So far we are not seeing any evidence of this revolution. Again, Sanders's whole campaign is based on this revolution and so it is appropriate to ask where these new voters are?

It is hard for me to take Sanders' proposals seriously including the ones you want to talk about unless and until we see some evidence of this revolution.

Again, where are these millions and millions of new voters?

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
19. But as of today, Clinton has 2,526,500 more popular votes than Sanders
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:43 PM
Mar 2016

That differential undermines heavily the concept of a revolution http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/democratic_vote_count.html Again, the premise of the Sanders campaign, your OP and the sad statements by Sarandon is that there will be revolution. That revolution takes voters who are not showing up. If elected, Sanders would lack the millions and millions of voters he claims would be necessary to get the GOP to adopt his platform.

I like living in the real world where numbers matter

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
24. If you think things are fine and think they should continue as they have been, fine
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:47 PM
Mar 2016

Not everyone sees it that way...a substantial segment of the country doesn't see it that way.

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
27. Again, the premise of your thread and the Sanders campaign requires millions and millions of voters
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:51 PM
Mar 2016

That premise is not being evidenced in the real world. Sanders can not become the nominee unless these voters showed up long before this. Without promised millions and millions of new voters, Sanders will be unable to do anything and the GOP will laugh at this so-called revolution

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
31. Miullions and millions of voters feel otherwise
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:57 PM
Mar 2016

It may not be a majority enough to win the primary, but it is a significant share of the electorate.

And the GOP is struggling with their own version of the same set of frustrations with Corporate Government from the conservative side.

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
35. But in a democracy, the majority vote wins and Clinton has 2.5 million more votes
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:03 PM
Mar 2016

The premise of your argument falls apart when you look at the numbers

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
63. Actually this is so wrong for the US it is astouding
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 09:33 PM
Mar 2016

the US is a representative democracy, and like the GE, the coin of the realm is NOT the popular vote. IF Sanders overcomes her in Pledged Delegates, you will see supers switch, like they have done since 1976.. .it will not matter if she still has more voters.

Same shit happened in 2000, the Dems had a popular majority, yet they did not have the presidency, and for reasons of serious gerrymandering, more dems voted for congressional seats, yet the Rs took it in 2014 by large majorities,

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
73. Your analysis is wrong as normal
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:03 AM
Mar 2016

The issue on this thread is that Sanders has promised a revolution with millions and millions of new voters who will enable Sanders to deliver on his unpopular and expensive platform. Without these millions and millions of new voters, then Sander will be unable to keep his promises. Sanders' plans for adopting his proposals depend on these new voters. Here is how Sanders thinks that he will be able to force the GOP to be reasonable http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/21/1483791/-Imagine-Bernie-Sanders-wins-the-White-House-Then-what

Bernie Sanders has made some very big promises when it comes to his legislative priorities: He says he’ll make college free, pass a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United, and institute a generous single-payer national health insurance program. And when he’s asked how he’ll turn these promises into reality, he says that he and his supporters will help bring about a “political revolution.”

That’s a phrase Sanders uses often, but what does he mean by it? Sanders has said that if he wins the presidency, his victory will be accompanied by a “huge increase in voter turnout”—one that he thinks might end Republican control of Congress. But Sanders acknowledges that the House and Senate could, in spite of his best efforts, remain in GOP hands come next January.

Given that likelihood, Sanders offers an alternate means for achieving his political revolution. He says he knows that a Democratic president can’t simply “sit down and negotiate” with Republican leaders and forge a series of compromises. Anyone who's observed the GOP’s behavior over the course of Barack Obama’s presidency would not dispute that, and in any event, no compromise with Republicans would ever lead to single-payer anyway.

So what then? How would a President Sanders get Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan to pass any of his big-ticket items? This is the model he proposes:

What we do is you put an issue before Congress, let’s just use free tuition at public colleges and universities, and that vote is going to take place on November 8 ... whatever it may be. We tell millions and millions of people, young people and their parents, there is going to be a vote ... half the people don’t know what’s going on ... but we tell them when the vote is, maybe we welcome a million young people to Washington, D.C. to say hello to their members of Congress. Maybe we have the telephones and the e-mails flying all over the place so that everybody in America will know how their representative is voting. [...]

And then Republicans are going to have to make a decision. Then they’re going to have to make a decision. You know, when thousands of young people in their district are saying, “You vote against this, you’re out of your job, because we know what’s going on.” So this gets back to what a political revolution is about, is bringing people in touch with the Congress, not having that huge wall. That’s how you bring about change.

The rest of the DK article debunks that concept that Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell could be influenced by these new voters but we never get to this issue and Sanders himself admits that he will not bet elected without this revolution. So far we are not seeing any evidence of this revolution. Again, Sanders's whole campaign is based on this revolution and so it is appropriate to ask where these new voters are?

It is hard for me to take Sanders' proposals seriously including the ones you want to talk about unless and until we see some evidence of this revolution.

Again, where are these millions and millions of new voters?
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
75. Astoubding!!!
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:58 PM
Mar 2016

Delegates are used in the nomination process, not popular votes . The fact you believe otherwise is astoubdingly wrong.

The coin of the realm for the presidential election is not the popular vote but is ELECTORS. And yes, we have had Presidents elected with more electors and not the popular vote. Even in your lifetime. That was 2000.

The fact that people who like to discuss politics do not understand these basic facts is not surprising. Should be distressing. Why the fuck do you think I give two pattoies about the popular vote and we are only tracking PDs earned? It will not be because 3 million more voted for candidate A or B or C matters not if they have more pledged delegates. They need a magic number. To get a clean election on the floor for both parties, depends on reaching a magic number of delegates.

In some analysis the D's actually have a good chance of neither reaching the necessary number of pledged delegates. The Rs have the same issue. This would lead to floor fights and open conventions. We go into third and fourth, brokered conventions

Astounding that you, yes you, don't understand this. And I know I am not wrong. I had this explained in more detail than you care by a County Dem who's role is distributing, or technically assigning the delegates. And I had this explained as well by a Coubty R. Quite brutally honest, and I expect you to miss the reference. The CA delegate allocation for Republicans looks like the D Washington state allocation. And I expect you to have no freaking idea what I meant. So go ahead and use the freaking Google.

Incidentally this is why SDs should not be counted until the first vote. Technically in the D side, they can change their minds right up until they sign the form right before the first vote

People should be enbarrased to not know how people are elected, but hey whatever. This is as basic nuts and bolts as this gets by the way.

 

Gwhittey

(1,377 posts)
47. Popular votes is not correct measure of anything
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:55 PM
Mar 2016

Because a LARGE number of individual votes are not included in that number. Not all states use popular votes other than to elect local delegates who then vote in a state caucus. So this keep spouting popular vote is dishonest and silly.

Gothmog

(145,107 posts)
51. You are wrong in that you are missing the fact that Sanders' revolution is a flop
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:14 PM
Mar 2016

The premise of the Sanders campaign is that he will be able to adopt his unrealistic and expensive platform including massive tax increases on everyone based on his so-called revolution where millions and millions of voters will show up and force the GOP to adopt Sanders unrealistic and unpopular programs. That revolution requires millions and millions of new voters who are not showing up. Using popular vote to measure these missing new voters is very appropriate.

 

DemocracyDirect

(708 posts)
77. So if its such a flop, why don't you focus on attacking Trump?
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:12 PM
Mar 2016

Or are you just working really hard to create a reality bubble for yourself?

 

CalvinballPro

(1,019 posts)
6. I can have an opinion about what I think she meant too.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:18 PM
Mar 2016

"I'm narcissistic and will feel no ill effects from President Trump because I'm insulated from all of that minority stuff. #WhitePrivilege" ~Susan Sarandon.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
11. Here's what was said:
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:27 PM
Mar 2016


SARANDON: I think Bernie probably would encourage people because he
doesn`t have any ego. I think a lot of people are sorry, I can`t bring
myself to do that.

HAYES: How about you personally?

SARANDON: I don`t know. I`m going to see what happens.

HAYES: Really?

SARANDON: Really.

HAYES: I cannot believe as you`re watching the, if Donald Trump…

SARANDON: Some people feel Donald Trump will bring the revolution
immediately if he gets in then things will really, you know explode.

HAYES: You`re saying the Leninist model of…

SARANDON: Some people feel that.

HAYES: Don`t you think that`s dangerous?


SARANDON: I think what`s going on now. If you think it`s pragmatic to
shore up the status quo right now, then you`re not in touch with the status
quo. The statue quo is not working, and I think it`s dangerous to think
that we can continue the way we are with the militarized police force, with
privatized prisons, with the death penalty, with the low minimum wage, with
threats to women`s rights and think that you can`t do something huge to
turn that around. Because the country is not in good shape if you`re in
the middle class. It`s disappearing.


http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/all-in/2016-03-28


I watched the interview. I think she meant exactly what she said. If Bernie doesn't get in then a Donald Trump presidency would bring about the type of 'change' she** and some Bernie supporters want. When Hayes said 'the Lennist model' as she was answering she was shaking her head yes.

**I** think she *may* be one of those people that believes you may have to 'tear it down' to fix it.

I read this article http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/29/susan_sarandon_is_perfect_spokeswoman_for_neverhillary.html thought it was interesting. No further comment other than interesting.


**I say she wants based on this interview and other things she's said. I'm not passing any type of judgement. Just stating my take on what was said.
 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
14. If your house has destructive mold in the walls.....
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:30 PM
Mar 2016

you can either deny it is there or just paint over the walls, and wait for the house to collapse, or you can acknowledge and fix it.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
17. There's more than one way to fix the mold.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:40 PM
Mar 2016

tearing the house down is one way.

I don't understand your comments. Whatever.

I didn't say a word against Ms. Sarandon and what she said. NOT. ONE. WORD.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
29. The house shouldn't have to be torn down
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:52 PM
Mar 2016

But the mainstream of neither party acknowledged there was a systemic problem until Bernie came along.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
32. Either were knocking the house down ...
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:00 PM
Mar 2016

... or not.

And electing trump is the knocking the house down political move.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
37. You call someone who will honestly tell you that you have mold and
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:10 PM
Mar 2016

offers a way to fix it and keep the house standing. Which is what Bernie is doing.

Or you can call someone like Clinton who says it's not fixable so just put a new coat of paint on the walls.

Trump is the guy who says your house is doomed and he'll buy it from you cheap...and then fixes it and resells it for a hefty profit.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
43. So if we nominate Hillary, you'd rather Trump just
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:00 PM
Mar 2016

Go ahead and knock the house down.

You think Bernie can fix the mold, I think Hillary can.

I know Trump will knock the house down.

And I won't let him do that.

And anyone who thinks letting him knock it down is a better outcome then letting Hillary try to fix it is insane.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
74. It's a question of which candidate WANTS to fix the mold
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 09:08 AM
Mar 2016

I see Clinton as more of a "slap a fresh coat of paint over it" candidate.

But there's obviously room for disagreement on that.



 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
12. When did she say "that is not a desirable outcome"- Chris tried to get her to disagree....
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:29 PM
Mar 2016

and she flat out refused to. Nope. Watch it again.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
16. if someone on the left is an advocate and leaves it up to interpretation
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:38 PM
Mar 2016

as to whether they'd be okay with Trump defeating Clinton, they've failed regardless of what their intent was

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
23. That's fine if that's your opinion...but I think the reasons for her opinion should be....
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:45 PM
Mar 2016

presented accurately.

Personally I think Clinton should be supported if she is the nominee becauae Terump and the GOP are awful.

But I also totally understand the frustration of those who have seen the same bullshit patterns being repeated endlessly and say that at some point that cycle has to be broken.

This election is just the latest version of the "line up and shut up because the GOP is so bad -- but we're not going to change anything if we win."

Meanwhile the US needlessly goes down the tubes to appease the wealthy and powerful, and politics remains a kabuki dance that enables it.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
30. Surrogates shouldn't contradict what the candidate says.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:54 PM
Mar 2016

When Bernie goes out and says that the most important thing is that the nominee defeat Trump (he's right!!), his surrogates should try to stick to that script. It's really not that hard to say "Bernie is a far superior choice and what we need to fix our corrupted and dysfunctional system. But, there's also no doubt that Trump as President would be dangerous and unacceptable."

Sarandon is an actress, she knows how to read from a script.

There has always been cause to despair about our political system and its trajectory.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
33. Surrogates are individuals...I saw the mayor of Miami Beach
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:00 PM
Mar 2016

literally claim that Sanders wants a Communist Dictatoirship when he was speaking as a surrogate for Clinton.

Is that acceptable?

There is much more cause for despair in the political system than there used to be. Around 1980, we took a horrid turn towards concentration of wealth and power.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
38. the country lurched right in 1980.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:11 PM
Mar 2016

Republicans played their racial strategy very well, and Democrats spent a generation trying to figure out how to recover.

the system that produced Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover was every bit as bad as what we had. And, uncomfortably, it's very possible that the Democrats and JFK stole the 1960 election from Nixon ( or alternatively, they stole it better than Nixon did).

Our politics has always sucked. It's always been corrupt. Note that the swing vote in Citizens United died this year.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
39. It has sucked on a more manageable and balanced and human scale
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:15 PM
Mar 2016

Johnson was a bastid, but he was also committed to fighting poverty and advancing other forms of social justice.

What we have now is a systemic problem that is far worse than simple corruption because it is widespread and structural.

I happen to believe that such grotesque systemic corruption is avoidable and it is possible to do better -- though we will never reach perfection.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
40. LBJ=Vietnam=fuck him.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:18 PM
Mar 2016

This corruption was always there. We just see more of it because of the Internet allows greater transparency.

two things need to happen: 1) Scalia's replacement needs to get rid of Citizens United
2) constitutional amendment so we can deal with money in politics--which was a huge problem even before Citizens United

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
49. the corruption has always been there, which is why one man alone cannot fix it.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:06 PM
Mar 2016

and yeah, transparency. Although that does not explain why Edwards was wonderful, and Clinton the devil.
Something else is at work.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
50. Edwards was a shameless panderer who had superficial appeal
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:08 PM
Mar 2016

to leftier-than-thou types despite his being significantly to Clinton's right.

Same people that were complaining about Clinton's speeches gave him a pass for working for a fucking hedge fund.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
52. Maybe they kick Hillary instead of themselves for being so very wrong? I see that happen in the
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:21 PM
Mar 2016

workplace all the time. Every screw up needs a scapegoat.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
57. Corruption was rampant before Citizens United. I agree about a Constitutional amendment
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 08:00 PM
Mar 2016

But also have to change the culture in DC and government, and what we will tolerate in politicians.

I'm old enough and jaded enough not to believe in miraculous transformation. But we have had a destructive transformation beyond "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" into a systemic institutional corruption. That is largely because we keep electing politicians who see public service as a passport to the good life by placating lobbyists and then joining them in the golden rooms (Tom Dashell, Bill Clinton, etc.).

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
79. I agree that Vietnam was horrible, but I don't think we can sum up LBJ's entire legacy based
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:26 PM
Mar 2016

solely on the Vietnam War.

He also passed the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. He passed Medicare, which transformed the lives of the elderly. He passed Medicaid and other anti-poverty measures, which lifted a lot of people out of poverty. He raised the minimum wage to historically high levels. And he passed major education bills, which dramatically improved opportunities for many Americans.

Obviously the war in Vietnam is also a big part of his legacy and should not be forgotten. I'm just saying that he has other parts to his legacy which had a transformative effective on this country in a very positive way.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
80. Congress did all of those good things--though obviously he played a role in it.
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:27 PM
Mar 2016

The one thing that was completely in his control was Vietnam.

What's past is past, though.

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
81. I agree about Vietnam. But LBJ was a legendary vote getter. And I don't think Congress would have
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:34 PM
Mar 2016

done all those things without presidential leadership.

Some maybe, but not all. The Civil Rights Act especially involved strong presidential leadership.

Of course, we will never know what would have happened if Kennedy had lived. I actually do believe that he would have gotten a lot of the same domestic legislation through Congress. And I don't believe we would have gotten as deeply into Vietnam.

It is an interesting "what if" question.

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
25. you don't need t defend her
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:48 PM
Mar 2016

From a raging mob of Internet dbags. She's been around a long time and has had to deal with political backlash before. She'll keep speaking her mind... as she should

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
34. And this is why you can't discuss anything
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:01 PM
Mar 2016
From a raging mob of Internet dbags.


^^^^^^you get called those kinds of names^^^^^

I thought we were adults. Adults talk about things. They don't call each other 'dbags' because they didn't completely and totally agree.

No one said she shouldn't speak her mind. People are discussing what was said. That's what happens when you're a spokes person.

Jarqui

(10,123 posts)
36. I think it's simpler.
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:03 PM
Mar 2016

If you're supporting Bernie, you're supporting Bernie.

And you're not going to commit to what else you'd do so that folks start going that way.

As a Bernie supporter, I think she played it smart.

She didn't say she was definitely going to vote for Trump and she didn't say she was going to vote for Clinton. She left them guessing and conveyed neither of them were great options.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
42. No doubt at all...
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:50 PM
Mar 2016

...but it is much more beneficial to Hillary's supporters to gin up faux outrage and misinterpret it on purpose as support for a Trump presidency.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." -- John F. Kennedy (a pretty well known Democratic President)

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
45. Susan Sarandon is a hero!
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:48 PM
Mar 2016

She was not only early and vocal against Bush-Clinton's horrible war on Iraq, she is speaking the truth NOW, once again at risk of her career.

She is saying that there are many, many people who will NOT vote for Hillary Clinton--actively dislike her, in vast numbers, and actively distrust her, in vast numbers. Clinton is so seriously corrupt and so in bed with warmongers (Henry Fucking Kissinger, for godssakes! And Robert Kagan, neo-con godfather!) that, like millions of other progressives, myself included, she doesn't know what she will do in the GE. How can she vote for THAT?

Corruption so serious that Sec of State Clinton was handing out federal weapons contracts to 20 countries in exchange for DONATING BIG BUCKS TO THE CLINTON FOUNDATION! Warmongering so serious that millions of people are being murdered, brutalized, starved and displaced--including many, many women being raped--across a swath of countries--Iraq, Libya and Syria--that she BRAGS ABOUT destabilizing!

Clinton furthermore supported the fascist coup in Honduras, where women who peacefully protest the fascist regime are routinely being raped and murdered, and women and gays are routinely subjected to oppression including many forms of brutality and deprivation (fired from jobs, etc.). Berta Caceres, the Goldman Environmental Prize winner, recently murdered by the fascist death squads that Clinton helped to unleash, is just one of many!

And what a bitter irony that Clinton told the children who fled here from Honduras that they must be deported back to the killing fields of Honduras "as a lesson to their parents."

HOW can we vote for this? HOW can we vote for MORE of this? You think Clinton was KIDDING when she laughed at the murder of Gaddaffi?! ("We came, we conquered, he died!"--ha, ha, ha!) This is monstrous callousness. It DOESN'T COUNT all the people who are now suffering and dying in the chaos Clinton created in these countries. They don't matter.

Again, how can we vote for this? And if THIS 50+ year loyal Democrat--myself--is thinking that same thought that Sarandon articulated, what of the millions who simply viscerally dislike and distrust Clinton for reasons they might not be able to articulate. Many will vote for Trump or whoever the Pukes put up. And many WON'T VOTE, or will do something else--join a third party, create a third party, revert to other kinds of activism or will suffer despair and bury their heads in the sand once again.

THIS is what Sarandon was trying to warn us of--what she has heard on the campaign trail, and what is reinforced by all polls: Clinton is a very weak candidate, and Sanders is quite the opposite.

Though Sanders started without ANY establishment support, and has endured the active opposition of the entire Democratic Party structure AND the Corrupt Media, his "favorability" ratings among the American people are extraordinarily high, and he beats Trump resoundingly (by 20 pts in one poll!) and beats all Pukes, whereas Clinton actually loses to Cruz and Kasich in national matchups. (Her margin against Trump is half that of Sanders.)

Sarandon is not only courageous--she is a prophet. She is trying to warn us! She is NOT saying don't vote for Clinton in the GE. She is saying that she is hesitating--as I am, and as many others are--and that many, many people are going to vote AGAINST Clinton in the GE. She is saying that Clinton is a disaster-waiting-to-happen. And she also prophesizes that, when that disaster results in a President Trump, we are then in danger of a violent revolution. She doesn't WANT a violent revolution, for godssakes! She is a peace activist!

The way to prevent a violent revolution in this country--as has happened in so many other countries when the Oligarchs went too far--is to change course NOW, before this Titanic sinks, nominate Bernie Sanders, and gear up the Democratic Party to put this very popular, populist candidate in the White House, where he will fight for a fair economy and start cleaning out the godawful corruption in Washington DC.

To misinterpret what Sarandon said is one the many disservices that Clinton supporters have been guilty of at DU (and probably elsewhere). They are repeatedly calling her "contemptible." She is not contemptible. It is Clinton who is contemptible for her pay-to-play at the State Department and all her other corruption, for the horrific suffering she is responsible for in Honduras and the ME, and for having murderous dirtbags like Kissinger and Kagan on her "team" (not to mention her dirty tricks dirtbag David Brock).

One of the pay-to-play countries was Saudi Arabia. Those royal bastards are real nice to women, eh? It's a triumph of "feminism" to give the worst, most violent patriarchy on the planet all the latest U.S. weaponry to smash their target acquisition, Yemen. (Oops, missed IS!) --in exchange for millions of Saudi dollars with which to influence endorsements and superdelegates.

Thank you, Hillary Clinton, for supporting women's rights.

These are some of the reasons that I strongly support Sanders, and don't know if I can vote for Clinton in the GE. I started campaigning for the Democratic Party at age 16, in JFK's 1960 election campaign. I've been a very loyal Democratic voter and supporter ever since. Like Sarandon, I'm 70 years old and a woman. We've been through it all, as to feminist struggles. And we've been through it all, as to the tragedies that hit the Democratic Party in 1963 and 1968, and all that has happened since then to DESTROY the prosperous, hopeful country that we grew up in.

Take our wisdom for what it is worth to you. But don't call us "contemptible." Sarandon is not "contemptible." She is a hero. I am not "contemptible," and while I'm not much of a hero, I do have a right to my opinion on matters regarding our political party and our country, without being called "contemptible," a Trump supporter, a traitor, a sexist, a racist, an elitist, and all the other crap that the Clinton campaign is throwing out there.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
48. that's what I got out of her interview too
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:57 PM
Mar 2016

NOT that she would vote for Trump. HOW that came out of there or why Huffington Post is claiming that she said that she would vote for Trump - I don't know

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
55. Susan JUST tweeted:
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:43 PM
Mar 2016
https://twitter.com/SusanSarandon/status/714957075940569088

Susan SarandonVerified account
‏@SusanSarandon Susan Sarandon Retweeted Jamie Lee Curtis
Of course I would never support Trump for any reason. If you watch the interview you'll see that's not what I said.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
58. Thank you for posting this!
Tue Mar 29, 2016, 09:14 PM
Mar 2016

Amazing how people can shut down and shut out what they don't want to hear. I didn't have any problem understanding her.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
68. I've been hearing "It has to get worse before it gets better" for at least 50 years
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 07:45 AM
Mar 2016

Not a clue why anyone her age would still believe it.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
71. The frustration underlying that cliche still exists...Things keep getting worse
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 08:38 AM
Mar 2016

The frustration underlying that old cliche still exists....Along with the GOP we get arrogant corporatism and its sibling of timid surrender from too many Democrats when they hold power.

Meanwhile wealth and power continue to become more concentrated, the GOP continues to run roughshod over liberalism and political values and behavior continues to reflect the worse aspects of human nature rather than higher aspirations and public goals.

Unless there is a positive intervention, the only question is when we will reach the tipping point.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
76. They know what she said
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 01:00 PM
Mar 2016

It's in their interest to be obtuse about it.

And they're ignoring every word out of her mouth after her Trump statement. She then went on to blame Trump for the nastiness of this election and articulated solid liberal positions and attitudes when approaching governance.

I'm just sitting back and enjoying how the people first in line to cry "Sexism!" at the slightest critique of Hillary are totally going to town on an opinionated liberal woman in the craziest ways.

When people want to show you who they are, let them.

Buzz cook

(2,471 posts)
82. There are historical similarities to Nader/Gore/Bush 2000
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 02:40 PM
Mar 2016

Many Nader supporters said it would be better if Bush won because things would get so bad there would be a revolution.

Needless to say we didn't see a revolution.

iirc from a class on revolution there needs to be a very high percentage of disaffected citizens to spark a revolution. Somewhere in the 90% area.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
83. Any reasonable person grasps that
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 02:56 PM
Mar 2016

Except those who want to rant and rave. My take is a lot simplier.

1) She has the right to free speech
2) She had the right to vote for the candidate of her choice

Period...end of story.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Regarding today's meme ab...