2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie will endorse and campaign for Hillary Clinton and will still be despised by her supporters.
SMFH!
monmouth4
(9,694 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)Zynx
(21,328 posts)Also, most polls show that the typical Hillary supporter holds no animosity toward Sanders.
TDale313
(7,820 posts)There is a strong authoritarian streak among camp Hillary.
brush
(53,764 posts)Time to get past primary season animosities and work to defeat Trump.
Are you with me?
pengu
(462 posts)Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)I despise HRC, yet they expect me to vote for her, anyway.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Everyone wants their candidate to win with minimal effort. You make it sound like an indictment.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)I didn't and don't hate Bernie. I don't like him, I disagree strongly with his policies, and his loud angry speeches grate on my nerves, but I don't hate him.
Trump? Yeah. That motherfucker I hate.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)that will never pass, raising taxes to astronomical heights to make college free, banning fracking.
Shall I go on?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Wouldn't you find the Republican Party more closely aligned with your beliefs?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)You are spouting pure Republican values. No wonder someone like Hillary can get so many votes. Bill Clinton turned this party into Republican lite and Obama continued it.
This will be the end of the two party system, I hope. We need a party that reflects the values and principles of the FDR Democratic Party again. With just two corporate parties the people are not being represented.
.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)I'm also a straight-ticket voting democrat. You want the Democratic Party to represent far-left values? Get millions of more votes. It's a free country - go for it.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)And you are using Republican wording (dismantling) to do it. Although, Hillary did use that smear as well, though she is also a moderate Republican based on policy stances.
I suspect what will happen is the Dem Party will break in two and a left party will emerge. Hopefully the same thing happens with the Republican Party, although I'm not sure it needs to. With so many undeclared people in this country I think a third party that stands for what the Dem Party is supposed to stand for, used to stand for before the neo-liberals took it over, will attract not only half the Democratic Party but maybe even half of those unaffiliated voters. More Republicans will switch to the Dem Party due to the insanity of having Trump as their nominee and we might just have a somewhat balanced three party system very soon.
.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Second, because of our weird laws in the States, no one will get to 270 in that scenario and every president will be chosen by Congress. Or you can do what they do in the UK and have a coalition government. For several years, UK had the equivalent of Trump (Cameron) and Bernie (Clegg) trying to "govern" together. Except what happened was because the Tories had the majority, Clegg was sidelined on every major decision and the Conservatives gave no quarter. And the Lib Dems (far left, Clegg's party) sunk the chances of Labour (equivalent to Dems in the US) in that election and they STILL haven't recovered. So basically because the Left and Moderate Left couldn't get their shit together, the Conservatives ran rampant, fucking everything up.
Which is exactly what would happen with a 3-party system in the States. But you keep wishing.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Are you saying that because a specific policy will never pass that it is a bad policy?
Maybe you are worried about the tax increase for college tuition because you do lots of trading on Wall street? Because that is how he has stated he will pay for tuition. It is going to be a transaction tax on Wall Street Speculation. If you fit in that group, then you are perfectly right to be worried. But, these transaction taxes are not going to hit those in the really middle and lower income families in this country.
Dismantling the ACA. You mean it's a bad idea to replace a for-profit driven health insurance system with a medicare for all system??? Again, are you really well off and don't have to be concerned about high premiums or high deductibles like those of us in the middle and low income bracket.
Right now, in larger cities, $15 an hour is still not enuf to make ends meet. And it isn't enuf for a simple rural lifestyle for a family of 2 persons.
Again, stating that his ideas will never pass does not mean they are bad ideas. It means we have a stinking Congress that doesn't give a rats patootie about the middle class.
And ?FRACKING?
There is nothing good about Fracking.
Absolutely. Nothing
Shall I go on???
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)To pay for the college scheme, EVERYONE'S taxes would go up. Because the states have to pay 1/3, either they raise taxes or cut other vital services (like pre-k through high school monies, or infrastructure).
ACA: should be expanded and improved, not dismantled. Single payer will never pass and isn't the right choice for a country that big anyway. The problem with the NHS in the UK is that it's a massive government entity so in order to get anything changed or improved for a particular patient population, you have to go through months and years of red tape. Individual trusts (hospitals) can't make decisions that benefit their particular patient populations because they can't move fast enough to provide appropriate care. And that's in the UK, a country with a population LESS than just California and Texas combined. Multiply that by 300 million and you have an intractable system that fails more people than it helps. And the cost would be astronomical. The UK is drowning under the weight of the NHS.
$15 an hour is not appropriate for a rural town in West Virginia, for example. It puts undue burden on small businesses. States and cities should pass min wage laws that are appropriate to their area. Pass a federal minimum wage of $10-$12 and send the rest on to the states/municipalities.
Fracking is the least worst option for keeping the country running while we build a clean energy infrastructure. Your choices are coal (dirtier than fracking), foreign oil (bad in so many ways), or fracking. If you have a way to magically build solar/wind/hydro overnight, PLEASE do it! But if not, I'm pretty sure you're going to need to heat your house, cook your food, and wash your clothes in the meantime.
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)You are basing a lot of your arguments on premises that are either false or not supportable.
These policies have not been totally spelled out, so you have picked premises to build scenarios that fail.
We have a Medicare system that works. You expand it to every one, and place a tax on earnings that are far far far less than premiums and copays for the average family. Since a lot of people who are young and not generally sick will be in the pool paying in, but not using the system as much, will help bring the overall cost down.
I live in a very rural area and we don't have a mortgage. We cannot sustain a household on $15 an hour. Again, you are stating that the $15 minimum is not appropriate because it will crush the local employers. So, basically, that just states its bad for business, regardless that reality is that people can't live on $15 an hour. Anywhere. By the way, you know that example of West VA you used? Well, if they want high speed cable, and live in a mountainous area, they will highly likely need satellite TV and internet. Do you have any IDEA how expensive it is? Horrendous. That is how we continue to sustain low information voters in this country. All they get is a couple crackly old local TV stations with FOX blasting all day telling them who to hate.
Fracking is causing earthquakes in places that never had them before. Fracking will become the stop gap measure that means we will stall on efforts to go sustainable. Yes, we are in a bit of a pickle. But, there are other countries that have gone green/sustanable and we need to quickly ramp up solar and wind. Not stall another decade and rely on increased use of fracking which is what is going on right now.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)That's going by a tax calculator website I used online, so it's unlikely to be accurate to the penny, but I rounded down by $700 so hopefully it's not too far off.
$28000 a year x 2 is $56000. I just looked at a 2-bed 2-bath house rental, pet friendly, in Wheeling West Virginia (it was the first town in WV I thought of) and it's $1000 a month. Nice hardwood floors. That's $12000 a year for rent. That leaves $44000 left to live on. I'm not going to break down the rest of car payments, bills, and food, but I think you could get by on that in a rural area where stuff isn't too expensive. And that's living in a really nice place compared to what else is on the rental market there. You could save a lot on housing if you wanted to.
I'm afraid high speed cable is not guaranteed to us in the Constitution.
You can't both rail against corporations and hamstring small businesses. People need to work SOMEWHERE.
Other countries have gone green and we will too. But other countries are 1/10 the size of the US and are able to get there a lot faster. We have, unfortunately, a country that was built on cheap gas and cheap electricity. We've sprawled across millions of miles. People live dozens or hundreds of miles from work, from supermarkets, from government services. Getting clean energy to all of them is going to take a long time, no matter how fast we ramp up. In the meantime, the country needs to run. I'd rather frack than burn coal. That's based on what environmental experts have told us about which is worse for the earth.
You're right, we can agree to disagree. But these are my opinions on Bernie's policies, which is what I was asked.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Independent and not bound to the Democrat's Clinton Doctrine of the election season...It's Her Turn, darn it.
The Republicans didn't count on Trump, either. Sad, in a way, when the outer "fringe" of each party has become strong enough to challenge the Establishment while a majority just don't give a damn anymore.
It was Jeb's Turn, too...well-known.
ETA: Who in their wildest Democratic dreams thought we would be faced with Trump...stop Trump...in a real election. Crazy, right?
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Gosh, it seems only yesterday that we all thought it was inevitable that it would be a
Jeb vs Hillary showdown.
How things have changed in a few short months
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)of American Royalty. That would have been a ho hum primary season. No digging into history or malfeasance...plenty to go around on both sides and they know it.
Now enter Bernie ... It's Rich vs. Poor. The parties have been left out. Poor HRC, as they have so frequently said, has to campaign against Bernie and Trump. Neither one "fit" for her majesty. And both adversarial constituencies don't give a flying rip about any Party.
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)All I can say is, it's time for Poor to win.
And unless we do, the Rich won't have anything left to suck off.
We will be shriveled up empty shells.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)kerry-is-my-prez
(8,133 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Arkansas Granny
(31,514 posts)The fact is, we had a primary and Hillary is winning and, barring some catastrophe, will be the Democratic nominee. And she will be the nominee because she has worked hard for it, not because it was given to her.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Foolish people...much better to have all your ducks in a row early and no fellow party person says stuff that can be used against you in a general. If you want to win a general...you don't want the risk of a primary. And of course, Sanders who promised a primary about ideas has bashed her repeatedly. He did some damage...too bad he ever got in...I wish Sanders had stayed in the Senate and done his job...the one he is paid to do.
anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)But I think rank-and-file Dems aren't so invested in personal brands, and a year from now won't remember much of the rancor.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)So which post of yours are you not telling the truth? Because it can't be both.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)BS Cheerleaders? Are you suggesting that they're aren't Hillary cheerleaders? You do it all the time.
For the record, I have said I will vote for her over Trump, yet still get called a sexist when I dare to question her in any way. NEVER have I heard a Clinton supporter praise an idea or policy o f Sanders.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)BS Cheerleaders post crap OP after crap OP around here ... June 16th can't get here soon enough. Those that don't want to help the Democratic Party can go play at Free Republic, Red State or Jack whatever that place is. Fortunately there really aren't that many of you .. it just happens to be a loud mob of people.
Response to SFnomad (Reply #75)
Post removed
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)You get condescension and looked down upon because you deserve it with your attitude and sense of entitlement.
The truth is the truth ... you can have your own opinions, you can't have your own facts.
Response to SFnomad (Reply #83)
Chasstev365 This message was self-deleted by its author.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)You are among the rudest people on DU.
.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)and more rude. I figure until June 16th, it will only get worse. I only get rude in reply to some of the rudeness I see ... and then they run for the fainting couches ... when people can dish it out, they should really be able to take it.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)Things that make you go hmmmmm
cui bono
(19,926 posts)This site is on a mission.
.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)are just supposed to smile and take it .... I think not.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Why would I then?
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Think back to the ascendant Sanders candidacy in January & February: Respected Party Leads (TM) aka SuperDelegates were openly supportive of a Bloomberg candidacy in the event Hillary lost the nomination. They suggested they'd bolt to him if the fall was a Sanders-Trump slamfest. One cannot forget that too easily. When the Hillary forces preach love and unity, don't forget they were willing to ditch the nominee in a heartbeat.
Why? It isn't about 'party unity' -- it is about using progressives as vote fodder while embracing a center-left or center-right (foreign policy) agenda. There was never any intention of respecting the party's wishes if we had achieved victory. So the asymmetry is that they can get away with words of support like that, but if we are to be Good Citizens(TM) then we have to back the nominee
((To this I have only one response: Nuts! I'll vote for who best represents my ideals which may be Clinton. In this respect I am no different than Rendell, that loyal Democrat ))
Let's not forget that either.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)But the truth is, I didn't see it. I was actually naive enough to think that Bernie Sanders would be allowed to win the nomination.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)There is just not a universe where he would be allowed to win.
But we can perhaps reform the party and send it in a different direction. Unfortunately the corruption and corporate influence that Hillary Clinton's wing of the party represents completely permeates the party. The Democratic party is, in my opinion, beyond repair in this regard.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)It only influences republicans. They truly believe that.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)and caucuses but not to the voting booth.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)dsc
(52,155 posts)with us despising Sanders.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Every time.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)officials corrupted by corporate money.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)I disagree with Bernie's policies. If you'd like me to elaborate, I will.
dsc
(52,155 posts)with zero or damn few posts from bernie supporters that addressed the policy.
leftinportland
(247 posts)The mud was/is being slung equally from both sides.
Arkansas Granny
(31,514 posts)That would go a long way toward developing party unity.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Some of us have this pesky thing called a long memory.
2banon
(7,321 posts)I think an endorsement from Bernie will give a false impression to Clinton supporters and acolytes the pretense of party unity for public consumption, and signal to the media.
But it'll simply be a fig leaf, and a dog and pony show to present to the world America's "democracy", which everyone loves to pretend we have.
He will do it of course, but no Sanders supporter will be deluded into thinking it's anything other than a fig leaf.
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The Democrats used to be weak allies that progressives had to work with.
Now, the Democrats are opponents that progressives have to work against.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)He has attacked Clinton, DWS, PP, the Democratic party. the supporters, the Democratic base the same as a Republican.
I do not respect him.
I do not want to listen to him.
Edit: Our President of the United fuckin' States, all our congress people, Democratic/rogressive heros, Super Delegates.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)You seem like you view the party as if it is a sports franchise.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)I do not have to listen to him insulting me.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Personal attacks. All the fuckin time. Just like so many supporters. Discussing issues and shifting to personal insults. Actually, that is not the same as Sanders.
Sanders just simply insults me constantly, because he thinks I am all that.... What ever he chooses that to be.
What is that? Then he demands I vote for him, then he insists I do not know what is good for me and to overturn my vote.
Hey, another insult.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)get to wear the "honest, truth, integrity" badge like he is separate of every one else. He does not automatically get to hold that up, as if it shields him from his lies and lack of integrity.
He is simply a politician. And that should be good enough for us.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)its policy decision?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)just let that sink in a bit and imagine the effect of that for the next whatever amount of years.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)be a rocket scientist to get that. Still, that has nothing to do with anything.
2banon
(7,321 posts)completely incoherent.
maybe it's time for you to take a nap, sleep it off. get's some nourishment, fresh air. or something.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)I know I need a nap, nourishment, fresh air and exercise, in fact I think I'll take me up some of it now. .. see ya later..
2banon
(7,321 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)still_one
(92,138 posts)endorses Hillary, Hillary will still be despised by many Sanders' supporters
and based on a good number of Sanders supporters comments on DU, they won't vote for the Democratic nominee if it is Hillary
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)I don't despise the Sanders Supporters, they're idealistic, they're motivated and they just need to learn they have to back it up by going to the voting booth, not just rallies, caucuses and slogans.
Who I do despise are the BS cheerleaders who are doing nothing but trying to #BernTheHouseDown right now because they're bitter sore losers that would rather see tRump be President than to let Secretary Clinton win, because she had the nerve to stand in their way.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Like Hilliary's campaign strategy: slash and burn (bern), and worry about unifying the party later. She can stick it.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)and you can't see the future.
kerry-is-my-prez
(8,133 posts)it will be "us against them." Democrats vs. Republicans. Happens every election no matter how pissed we get. When Trump begins attacking Hillary, most of us will NOT be on the side of Trump.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)More made up fiction
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)Many of us spar with the Sanders followers here because they are so nasty and spread all those right-wing smears about Hillary. If we have to use your candidate as a convenient punching bag, then so be it. I don't necessarily dislike Sanders as a person, but I do dislike anyone who choses to run for president with big promises that have no concrete plans for actual success. I think it was unfair of him to lead on his followers in such a way.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)if anything that would cause disillusment by his supporters because clinton is enemy of what bernie believes and supports.
her supporters will hate him since he dared to stand in way of her cornoration.Her supporters are fine with her going full on right.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... by that point.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Vinca
(50,261 posts)The current hate-a-thon from Hillary supporters is wearing thin.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)Nearly all of Hillary's supporters voted for Obama in November. Many of them joined local and state efforts to help ensure that he would win the presidency and to assist in getting down-ticket Democrats elected.
You planning to do the same for Hillary and other Dems?
Vinca
(50,261 posts)I've got to remember to use sarcasm smilies.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)Not this one, for sure.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512122276
You're just flat wrong.
bullimiami
(13,084 posts)Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)give one reasonable argument why Bernie would be despised by Clinton supporters
applegrove
(118,622 posts)Hilary supporters are getting frustrated and express it, but THEY have not dehumanized Bernie for months on end.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)He has been called everything from a communist to a.crusty old jew here by people.whose.only goal was.to.dehumanize him.
The day he announced a.race baiting picture was used here by hrc supporters.to equate him with violent police.action against black americans.
Maybe you didnt do it but dont ever let the rest off the hook for what they wrote about a man who is likely the only honest decent person in congress.
applegrove
(118,622 posts)They were not attacking him with bile like they were Hillary. Lately some have complained. But most of the way through he was not dehumanized like she has been.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)And it was the opening salvo.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)emulatorloo
(44,116 posts)MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)Worn out to campaign. I would rather have President Obama do it, and it will be glorious, just Glorious.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Spite for Trump. Spite for Bernie. Spite for Socialists. Spite for Progressives.
Spite. Yuck.
MFM008
(19,805 posts)Sanders is more likely to be scorned for "SELLING OUT". I heard this out of the mouth of a young gal working for him.
I welcome a chance to pivot to fighting the real enemy with anyone,
Donald Trump and the republican party!
Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)And for the most part, they're an awful bunch. And by awful, I mean spiteful, nasty, condescending, antagonistic and rotten. But I don't want to believe that they represent her supporters at large. However, if they do, it's not going to be a good election season for the democrats.
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)Any help in meeting that goal is welcome. Sanders has the opportunity to make a positive impact toward that goal, and I hope he does so, as he has often said he would.
larkrake
(1,674 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)I don't have anything against Sanders. He's a decent man with great ideas. But I find myself hoping he loses -and soon- just so his foul-mouthed Clinton-Haters will shut the fuck up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He is not despised by her supporters now, and once he endorses her all will be well.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)River flows both ways, chief...