2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumDo Sanders People Want to Pull a Bush V. Gore?
So the candidate with the popular vote lead, by about 13% points and the candidate with the lead in the delegates (or electors if you will) doesn't deserve to win and a privileged few (the superdelegates, the Supreme Court) are supposed to overturn what the voters want?
Sanders only has 42% of the vote in the democratic primary, compared to 55% of the vote for Clinton. I mean, Gore beat Bush by 0.5% points and that was clearly stolen. But now we should pick the candidate that about 40% of people wanted? Why? How is that democratic? How is that not blatantly stealing an election?
senz
(11,945 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)Can't physically pull the lever? You know those election workers will help you. But if Bernie and his 40% of the vote somehow heal you then maybe it is time to start a religion
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)It's for all Democrats to select the nominee. If you personally find the winning candidate unacceptable, well in a democracy sometimes the majority disagrees with you.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)brush
(53,726 posts)You just think you are.
Los Angeles Times printed a recent California poll
65% of Sanders supporters are willing to vote for Clinton in November
10% said they'd vote for Trump
13% won't vote
Sounds to me like 65% of Sanders supporters are Democrats and/or adults who recognize the threat Trump poses to our country.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)I'd appreciate a link to see the poll questions for myself, if you have it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)put it in a nutshell.
There is a reason why it is President Obama.
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)you tried and failed...all this drama is so silly.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)that Hillary can win the general election without that 42%?
Because if she and her supporters think that she is so far ahead in the primaries that she deserves to win but that she is not far enough ahead to be able to win without a pretty good percentage of Bernie's votes, then her attention right now should be focused not on how to make Bernie's voters feel wicked or guilty if they don't vote for her, but on how to win Bernie's voters so that they WANT to vote for her.
So far, I haven't seen Hillary or any of her supporters trying to appeal to Bernie's voters on any basis other than guilt or humiliation.
Something for Hillary supporters to think about.
Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)I voted for him in my state's cacus and I think you grossly overestimate the number of us that are with you
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)They won't feel under any compunction to vote for Hillary.
The browbeating of Bernie supporters and the insulting of Bernie supporters helps Trump. I don't think that Hillary supporters are realistic about that fact.
Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)Response to Doctor Jack (Reply #23)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)Everything is a lie. All information is a conspiracy. You are all alone in this world
Response to Doctor Jack (Reply #33)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Response to Lord Magus (Reply #51)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Getting 4 states wrong is not "abysmal".
Response to Lord Magus (Reply #39)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)And saying a year ago that Trump wouldn't be the nominee does not make for an "abysmal record."
Response to Lord Magus (Reply #52)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)SpareribSP
(325 posts)They might even vote for Trump to tear the system down, if they aren't brought back into the fold after Sanders is out. You can see that already with a large demographic shift of millennials being more and more Trump friendly in recent polling.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Because if BS steals the election, far more people that voted for Secretary Clinton won't vote for BS in the general. You can kiss your lead over tRump out the window.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)is the nomination.
Then assuming she wins the nomination, she has to win the general election. Do you think that insulting and bullying Bernie supporters is going to help her win over enough Bernie supporters to actually defeat Trump?
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)for Secretary Clinton?
Yeah, I didn't think so. If you think me telling you a simple fact, that Secretary Clinton hasn't stolen the election, but earned it is insulting you ... you need to get a thicker skin.
Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)Obviously. He's Bernie Sanders. Everyone loves him without question. Thats why he is getting a whole 40% of the vote.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)for Sanders in the general election the way that Hillary supporters are.
We are told we can't express our opinions on websites where we have been posting for years if we don't support Hillary in those opinions.
We are scolded if we don't want to vote for her.
We are not telling Hillary supporters that they must support Bernie.
But Hillary supporters are telling us that we must support Hillary.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)So it's really up to you.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)not one Hillary supporter has defended her on those grounds.
I wonder why that is. It appears some just don't care about ethics.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)up ... and nothing will change that. You're allowing Republicans to get away with their 20+ years of scandal mongering, smears and witch hunts, all of which have come to nothing.
But go ahead, you have a nice clean conscience that you didn't vote for that "unethical candidate" ... while President tRump helps take the rights of women, immigrants, non-Christians, minorities and gays away. It's really people like you that make me ill.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Hillary.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)it's their fault that you're going to take your vote home with you and pout. And if they could only see what you did and voted for your candidate instead that it would be all better.
That's poor sportsmanship. It's really just sour grapes and being a sore loser.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)do so happily.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Would anything ever actually sway you to believe otherwise?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)They were once reasons a majority on here agreed with and are pretty hard to refute aren't they?
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)And you didn't answer my question, is there anything that would actually convince you otherwise?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)IWR vote
Welfare Reform support
Crime bill support
NAFTA support
Not thinking climate change is an important and pressing issue
Lies about being under Sniper fire
Lies about Nancy Reagan and AIDS support
Private Prison money
"super-predators"
TPP support
H1B visa support
Dodd-Frank repeal and Wall Street support
Not supporting free college education
Health insurance company support
Not supporting Single Payer
Mass incarceration support
Death penalty support
Not supporting $15 an hour minimum wage
I am sure I left some out but that is the gist of it.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)IWR vote
Yes, she has admitted that was a mistake. Getting something wrong is not unethical.
Welfare Reform support
Policy disagreement is not unethical.
Crime bill support
The same one voted for by among others, Bernie Sanders and the entire Congressional Black Caucus?
NAFTA support
Policy disagreement is not unethical.
Not thinking climate change is an important and pressing issue
That's an outright lie.
Lies about being under Sniper fire
Sigh. Yes, that was wrong. It's also insignificant.
Lies about Nancy Reagan and AIDS support
She sugarcoated a woman's record at her funeral.
Private Prison money
Yet she's seeking to ban private prisons.
"super-predators"
Despite the distortions about this, there was nothing racial about her comment. The first public use of the term that I'm aware of was in reference to the (white) Columbine killers.
TPP support
She supported it while she was personally negotiating it. After stepping down as SoS she took the position of waiting to see what the end product would be. When the final text was published, it was no longer something she could support.
H1B visa support
I fail to see how this is a bad thing.
Dodd-Frank repeal and Wall Street support
Again, outright false.
Not supporting free college education
Her college tuition plan would in fact be massively helpful to students.
Health insurance company support
Under the awful Citizens United era of campaign finance, Democrats can't afford to unilaterally disarm and let Republicans alone bury the airwaves with unlimited money. That's just being realistic.
Not supporting Single Payer
Acknowledging that it's not currently achievable is very different from opposing it.
Mass incarceration support
No, she doesn't support mass incarceration.
Death penalty support
I can't say that this is a good position for her, but I'm not going to call her unethical for disagreeing with me.
Not supporting $15 an hour minimum wage
She does support it. She just isn't sure it should be set at $15 nationwide right now.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Tell that to her victims and their families!!!
Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)That is why Sanders supporters are running all over this site and the internet in general with near impunity. Gee, its so difficult to find a pro-sanders/anti-clinton discussion on the DU because you are being so oppressed.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Trying to extort the party into handing Bernie the nomination on the threat that otherwise they'll give us President Trump.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)So are Hillary supporters.
Bernie supporters aren't going to give anybody Trump.
Hillary supporters might give the US Trump, but Bernie supporters won't.
If you mean that Bernie supporters' exercising their right to vote or not vote as they wish might mean the Hillary can't without the support of Bernie supporters beat Trump, then that's Hillary's inability to beat Trump that is at fault.
If Bernie is not the candidate, then it is up to Hillary to get enough votes to beat Trump.
Whoever is the candidate has to attract the votes and inspire the voters to defeat Trump.
That is what winning the nomination requires: the ability to beat Trump or any other Republican nominee.
If Hillary can't inspire Bernie supporters to vote for her, then she has no one but herself to blame for losing to Trump or any other GOP nominee.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)I'm saying that many Bernie supporters have threatened that they'll give us President Trump if they can't have Bernie as the nominee. Using such extortion tactics doesn't mean they actually can cause a Trump presidency but it's what many "BernieOrBust" types are threatening.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Bernie supporters to fall in line and help her win. She has been pretty much on her own during the primary. If she is such a great candidate, she will win on her own regardless of what Bernie supporters do or how they vote.
She decided to vote for the Iraq War Resolution on her own. She will either win the general election on her own or just lose it.
I think it is incumbent on Bernie voters to focus on building a truly progressive coalition. That should be our focus whether Bernie wins the nomination or not.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)brush
(53,726 posts)Los Angeles Times printed a recent California poll
65% of Sanders supporters are willing to vote for Clinton in November
10% said they'd vote for Trump
13% won't vote
Sounds to me like 65% of Sanders supporters are Democrats and/or adults who recognize the threat Trump poses to our country.
Trump will lose spectacularly.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Immigration is the big issue here, and immigrant bashing is a loser.
But across the nation, issues like Trumps anti-trade stance and his "promise" to make America number one appeal to a lot of voters.
Hillary supporters are overly optimistic in this regard.
brush
(53,726 posts)Are you saying they might vote for Trump?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)So, many of us don't want to vote for Hillary.
The problem with Hillary is her corruption, and her corruption is due to the amounts of money she takes from unsavory individuals and corporations who want special consideration from the government.
For many Bernie supporters, the controlling, the most important issue is campaign finance reform. Hillary gives lip service to it, but takes as much money as she possibly can from the rich and well connected. It is impossible for many of us to believe that she will implement campaign finance reform that is sufficient to make a difference.
So that is the problem with Hillary and why many Sanders supporters will not vote for her.
Would Hillary supporters vote for Bernie if he were the nominee?
If not, why not?
brush
(53,726 posts)It's you BoBs that don't seem to understand the importance of voting blue no matter who.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"oh you must want a Republican to win."
Last I checked, I'm still a Democrat and it is not predicated on my being in love with Hillary Clinton as a candidate.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)So this is like saying, how dare you interfere with our robbery!
Doctor Jack
(3,072 posts)How far ahead is bernie in your delusi....I mean in reality?
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)More voters have supported Hillary than Bernie. That's not robbery, it's democracy.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm pretty sure I will wake up tomorrow a Democrat.
I am not obligated to shower Hillary Clinton with adoration to maintain my status as a Democrat, and it is wearing pretty thin to see that canard being pushed here.
MFM008
(19,803 posts)forget it.
I really don't care who they vote for.
There are some who wouldn't vote for HRC if Sanders himself was on the ticket.
He would be "selling out", see.
Hopefully Trump will implode enough to have a stroke or she will be in double digits
we will only need reasonable people.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You care enough to browbeat every single Democrat on this board that isn't overjoyed that she will probably end up our nominee with an FBI indictment hanging over her head.
Let's not pretend otherwise.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)In their arrogance, the DNC, state un-Democratic Party leaders, and the Hillary Campaign thinks that we will fall in line again and vote for the lesser of two evils. Trump will try to out Hillary Hillary to drive us to vote for her, but this time we are just staying home as we did in 2014). The Party has made it very clear that they don't want us, so why should we vote for a candidate who used Rovian tactics to get the nomination and who is the second most distrusted candidate? Independent is the largest political affiliation. If Hillary is the nominee, about 25-30% of registered Democrats will leave the Party.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)Enjoy Citizens United? Because that decision would have been a sitting duck if Obama was able to successfully make another nomination to the supreme court, which he could have done if we kept the Senate in 2014. (His other two appointees already voted to overturn Citizens United.)
Perhaps some people like being able to complain about not getting progressive change more than they actually want progressive change. I hope you aren't one of them.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that supports Bernie Sanders has a burning desire to aid getting Republicans elected.
I mean it's right there in the name - "We really want Donald Trump to win" Underground.
If I hear one more Nader yelling type person because I am a Democrat that supports a genuine Democrat in Bernie Sanders, I'm going to scream.
You folks aren't helping the cause. It's like you want to alienate Democratic voters.
But proceed Governor, and see how that turns out.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)I've only ever seen Nader brought up in conversations where someone explicitly stated they would not vote (or that people should not vote) for Hillary in the general election. If you are sick of Nader being brought up in those contexts, you should get used to it. But if not, I don't think very many people are arguing that people who support Bernie in the primary are trying to help elect Republicans.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)Sky Masterson
(5,240 posts)By not running the most blandest,un-liked,boring candidate that inspires nobody that doesn't already like her against a carnival barker.
We want to win.
Hillary is a path to losing.
Bookmark this for that sad day when we elect our first Orange American to the White house.
Sky Masterson
(5,240 posts)We are trying to throw the fight.
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)If Bernie can't win then bern it down...and all those who failed recognize how awesome this guy is ...now they will be sorry.
Vinca
(50,236 posts)I think Bernie is staying in until the FBI hammer comes down. If Hillary happens to be charged and Bernie has dropped out, it is more likely Biden would be drafted than Bernie. If Bernie stays he has clout since he has such a huge following and has been running a very electric campaign. For the life of me I don't see why Hillary supporters are in a Bernie frenzy. Hillary is going to be the nominee. It would be more beneficial if you spent your time trying to unify than divide.
Stuckinthebush
(10,835 posts)It destroyed Nader. He's nothing now. Bernie has work to do and can't afford to be a national disgrace.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)If Hillary loses, that's on Hillary and her followers, not on Bernie and his.
She's the candidate, she's got to win the votes. If she doesn't, that's her fault.
Matt_R
(456 posts)Am I reading this right?