Here's what I don't understand about the email argument

[ContinentalOp]

If Sanders suspends his campaign, and then Clinton is indicted before the convention, he could still be nominated at the convention, couldn't he?

And if Clinton becomes the nominee but is indicted sometime before November, couldn't she drop out and somebody else could take her place? Presumably the VP pick?

The argument that Sanders is staying in because of the emails makes no sense. What am I missing?

[think]

1. Hillary would refuse to drop out even if indicted. You can pretty much count on that...

[BillZBubb]

6. Yeah, I agree. And her cult followers would be right there with her all the way.

[ContinentalOp]

14. Well ok then "arrested" or whatever you're hoping for.

If she were somehow forced out, it doesn't really matter if Sanders had previously suspended his campaign or not does it? It still seems like he would have an equal chance either way to be the replacement nominee.

If you're assuming that she'll never drop out under any circumstances then there's really no point in him staying in the race is there?

[grasswire]

27. suspended and drop out are two different things.

Just a point.

She may not have a choice about dropping out. It may be part of a plea deal to avoid prison time for her. She may be ineligible for a security clearance. A lot of things may happen.

[ContinentalOp]

41. Right, and were any of these things to happen before the convention,

the party could still choose Sanders as the nominee instead, even if he suspends his campaign before then. There's no reason for him to stay in "just in case". It doesn't make any sense.

[randome]

2. What I don't understand is why people continue to make posts with the word 'indict' in them.

It's one of the most ludicrous phenomenons I've ever witnessed on DU. It's like hoping that a friend of yours will win the lottery and then decide to give you all the money.

It's been hard for me to wrap my mind around this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[BillZBubb]

5. What I don't understand is the Hillary fans' head in the sand posture.

Hillary committed crimes with her email setup and the handling of classified information.

The FBI is doing a criminal investigation and Hillary is a target. The Justice Departments own Inspector General found that Hillary was negligent and broke the rules. It also showed attempts were made to hack her server, which she claimed never happened.

The Inspector General wasn't authorized to do a criminal investigation, but what the report showed was criminal activity.

The FBI now is more likely than not to recommend an indictment of Hillary on one or more charges. Her whole fabrication of the situation has been blown out of the water. Whether the DoJ will move forward on an indictment is still an unknown. Even so an FBI recommendation would be devastating to the Democratic party.

Wrap your head around that.

[randome]

7. 'Crimes'. Right. Then you go right on to 'broke the rules', which is not a crime.

Define the crimes, please.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[BillZBubb]

8. As I said the IG wasn't a criminal probe. But what he found amounted to criminal behavior.

Just keep that head buried in the sand.

In the future, you'll be arguing, "well OK she was indicted, but she won't EVER be convicted." I can't wait.

[randome]

10. And where do you get 'amounted to criminal behavior' from?

My head is not in the sand. I've said often enough to let the chips fall where they may. But it's obvious you and yours won't let this go, and that's kind of sad.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[BillZBubb]

11. Won't let this go? With an ongoing FBI criminal probe? Are you daft?

You are happy letting the party nominate someone who very well might be recommended for indictment by the FBI. Many of us think that is foolish and reckless. Hillary made this mess and ought to have the decency to step down. That's what is sad.

Hillary signed an SF312. Various disclosures within the IG report indicate she violated several sections of that agreement, including parts related to criminal statutes. She broke the law.

[ContinentalOp]

15. So assuming that she won't step down and that she'll become the nominee,

what point is there in Sanders staying in the race?

[BillZBubb]

19. Geez I answered that earlier. But even if she won't step down she might not be the

nominee if indicted. It will be decided for her in that case. The Supers might just say "we're not going there".

[grasswire]

31. If there is evidence of criminality...

...and the DoJ does not indict, we will have another Watergate on our hands. All bets are off, all hands inside the ride.

But she would NOT be allowed to continue her race. She can't just choose to stay in if all hell is breaking loose because of her. Personally, I hope she pushes it to the ultimate. People who flout the law so arrogantly deserve a frog march.

[ContinentalOp]

37. Right but here's my point.

Let's say Sanders drops out tomorrow. Then a week later this "evidence of criminality" comes out and it's a total shitstorm and she's disgraced, her popularity plummets, and the party leadership turns against her. The superdelegates could still choose to support Sanders at the convention and make him the nominee even though he suspended his campaign. There's nothing stopping them from doing that, right? So there's really no need for him to stay in the race as an insurance policy against that possibility. He's already proven that he has a big constituency and is second place in popularity, so he doesn't really need to keep making that argument anymore.

[grasswire]

39. you want him to drop out? nt

[ContinentalOp]

43. Or "suspend" or whatever, but yes. I don't think there's any reason for him to keep running

Other than to try to further attack and weaken the party and the nominee and help Trump.

If something bad does happen with the email thing, he could still come in and save the day. He wouldn't somehow be disqualified because he suspended his campaign, right?

[eggman67]

46. The superdelegates could still choose to support Sanders at the convention

But if he suspends, it could make it easier for them to parachute in Biden or some other.

[ContinentalOp]

57. This is the argument I don't get.

How is it "easier"? Either way, the superdelegates can vote whoever they want. If the Democratic establishment has it out for Sanders and doesn't want him to be the nominee, then they're not going to vote for him whether or not Clinton drops out or is arrested or whatever you're hoping for.

In fact, if he bows out graciously, endorses Clinton, helps campaign for her, and restores his relationship with the Democratic party, it would be far more likely that he would be called upon in the unlikely event that Clinton drops out (or is forced out or whatever). But if he keeps acting as though the party is his main enemy, then it's more likely that they'll turn elsewhere.

[eggman67]

68. Because they don't want Bernie, they want an establishment candidate

Taking himself off the board makes it easier to justify that.

[apcalc]

32. No crime was committed.

No rules were broken. She is NOT being investigated.

Total right wing bull. Right wing fantasy land...

[BillZBubb]

48. You forgot the sarcasm thingy!

[840high]

54. I'll tell the FBI to stop right now.

[Lord Magus]

59. It's simple, she knows she DIDN'T commit crimes with any of that.

Just because you wish the FBI would recommend an indictment doesn't mean it will happen.

[BillZBubb]

63. Just like she knew she didn't do anything wrong at State? The IG report said different.

Just because you don't want to believe Hillary is corrupt doesn't make her not so.

I have no idea what the FBI will do, but given what is publicly available, she CLEARLY broke the law.

[ContinentalOp]

12. I agree.

But even if she were somehow magically indicted and needed to be replaced, Sanders staying in the race has nothing to do with it. The party is not going to say "oh boy, good thing Sanders didn't suspend his campaign!"

[Zen Democrat]

28. Because it's hanging out there. Paglio got immunity and that says there something going on.

And the media has pretty much agreed that Clinton is in jeopardy.

[randome]

40. You're wrong. The media just keeps an interesting story afloat.

Neither of us knows why Paglio was given immunity. But at least I'm willing to say let the chips fall where they may. All this nonsense about "What if" scenarios is ridiculous. Clearly Clinton did not intentionally try to commit espionage.

Clearly other Secretaries flaunted similar -not the same, but similar- rules.

And it is ludicrous in the extreme to assume someone will go to jail for failure to follow email protocol.

It's such a nothing-burger than I'm not even sure it qualifies as that!

And it's all promoted by Sanders supporters.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[840high]

55. I'll tell the FBI to stop

right now.

[BillZBubb]

3. Yes, he could, but there would be less pressure on the former Hillary delegates support him.

Only if Sanders is still an active candidate during the convention does he have an airtight case to be the nominee. Only he and Hillary made the grueling run for the nomination. One of them should be the nominee.

But Sanders isn't staying in because of the emails. He's staying in to keep pressure on Hillary and the DNC to move the platform left and keep it that way. He's forcing Hillary to stay a "progressive" at least until after the convention.

He's said from day one that he is staying in until the convention. No one should be surprised that's what he's doing.

[ContinentalOp]

18. That doesn't make any sense either, since their stated positions are already very close together

And I'm assuming the Sanders supporters who don't trust Clinton also don't think that the platform means anything to her right?

[BillZBubb]

20. On the contrary, their stated positions are very far apart. I can't believe you don't see that.

The platform means little to Hillary, that is correct. She's going to govern as the Third Way corporatist she is.

But, if Bernie can move the platform to the left, a lot of people will take notice. This is the first move in bringing the party back to its roots from the Third Way, moderate republican party is has become.

No one is delusional enough to think the Democratic party can become progressive again in a short period of time. Big money's tentacles run deep. But the place to start is a fight for the platform.

Once again, Bernie said he was in the race until the convention. So, that's what he's going to do. Is that too hard to understand.

[RobertEarl]

4. Bernie is not going to quit

Hillary quit in 2008.

But Bernie is staying in all the way.

[Zen Democrat]

29. Hillary quit in 2008 because she made a deal with Obama for SoS.

[apcalc]

36. And you know this exactly how?

[yellowcanine]

9. Well, Sanders is not "staying in because of the emails."

Where did you get that idea?

So it appears we have a red herring here, no?

[ContinentalOp]

13. Really?

That's the only argument I've seen for why he should stay in even though he can't win. Sanders supporters here are constantly talking about this looming indictment and how Sanders staying in is our only defense against that possibility.

[MoonRiver]

17. Supporters on DU do not speak for Sanders.

He's said he's sick and tired of the damned emails. Remember that?

[yellowcanine]

21. Oh so you got the idea from Sanders supporters on DU, then?

And how many of them have any inside information on the campaign strategy of of Bernie Sanders? I challenge you to cite anything where he has stated this publicly.

[ContinentalOp]

22. I was asking a question of Sanders supporters of DU

They have said time and again over the past couple of months that he needs to stay in because a Clinton indictment is imminent. You didn't see any of the hundreds of posts making that argument?

[yellowcanine]

23. Your mistake then, to confuse DU Sanders supporters with the Sanders campaign.

Really, you need a reality check.

[ContinentalOp]

24. Where did I ever say anything about the campaign?

I'm referring specifically to an argument that has been made repeatedly at DU that he needs to stay in in case she's indicted.

[TexasBushwhacker]

25. I think he's staying in because if something happens between now and the convention

he has a chance of getting some superdelegates to support him and he wins the nomination. It could be regarding the FBI investigation.

It could be the book that's coming out about the Clintons, written by one of their former Secret Service agents. Lest you write that off, it's in the Top Ten Best Sellers on Amazon and it doesn't come out until the end of June.

I don't know if these things will be a factor, but I know for damn sure that Trump is going to be all over them like cat hair on a sofa.

[ContinentalOp]

33. Let's say they split the rest of the remaining pledged delegates evenly.

He would still need to flip over 400 superdelegates. Something major would have to go down for that to happen. And if something like that did happen, then it doesn't really matter if he has suspended his campaign or not. As far as I understand, the superdelegates can vote for anyone. They could vote for O'Malley if they want. So Sanders staying in at the moment doesn't prevent him from getting the nomination in event that some kind of catastrophe happens and Clinton is forced to drop out. He could suspend his campaign tomorrow and still become the nominee if the superdelegates all decide to flip to him later.

[TexasBushwhacker]

42. What's wrong with staying in

If he has the money, why shouldn't he stay. Clinton is already focusing her speeches and such at Trump. If Bernie wants to stay in the campaign and keep things focused on issues a bit longer, what does it hurt? Once the convention is over, Trump will be flinging poo like an ape. Actually he's already started. So before we sink into the sewer that this GE campaign will be, why not lift the Democratic Party in the eyes of the voting public?

[ContinentalOp]

45. He's just postponing the inevitable.

He's giving us less time to unify around a nominee. He's delaying her from properly shifting to the GE. If he doesn't concede and endorse her after she crosses the majority of delegates tomorrow, he'll prove that he really has no interest in being anything but a spoiler.

[winter is coming]

61. If it's going to take us more than three months to unify, it's not going to happen at all.

Philadelphia will be soon enough.

[beachbumbob]

26. Sanders lose the microphone...his ego can't take it...

[Thinkingabout]

34. Hoping for an indictment will notv result in Sanders getting her pledged delegates,

She would have to release them. Just as Sanders dropping out would not give his pledged delegates to Hillary, this is the way it works. There have been candidates with delegates in the RNC who have dropped out and still maintains their delegates. It does not work the way some wants, Sanders earned his delegates, Hillary earned her delegates.

[mreyer]

35. Indicted on what charge?

Emails on a private server was not and is not a crime. What do you think Hillary did that was illegal?

[ContinentalOp]

38. I agree. I don't think she did anything illegal.

[BillZBubb]

49. She had CLEARLY classified information on an unsecured private server. That's a Federal crime.

And that's just for starters.

[840high]

56. Foundation will be next.

[ContinentalOp]

60. I disagree, but assuming that you're right...

How does Sanders staying in help the situation? If Clinton somehow drops out, is forced out, is arrested, or whatever you're hoping for, she will be replaced by somebody else. If that happens after the inauguration, that somebody else will be the VP. If it happens before the election but after the convention, it could be anybody, including Sanders. Him staying in longer doesn't increase his chances. If anything it hurts that possibility as he continues to erode any goodwill the party insiders might have had for him. In fact, dropping out and endorsing Clinton would probably make it more likely that he would be the party's choice in the event that Clinton needs to be replaced. But staying in at this point serves no purpose whatsoever.

[BillZBubb]

65. Talking to you is like talking to a tree stump.

Look, here's an example of what can happen when a candidate prematurely throws in the towel:

The media proclaimed w bush the winner in Florida and Gore IMMEDIATELY called bush to concede. Well, as usual the media turned out to be wrong. Gore by that one foolish act subtracted a lot of the force his argument that he really won carried. It added fire to the republicans fight to deny any kind of recount.

Sanders staying in gives him a powerful position and the Super Delegates would know it. If he's still in, the choice is either him or Hillary, not some parachute white knight candidate. Sanders loses that big edge if he suspends.

If you don't understand this, don't bother to reply. You just aren't going to get it.

[ContinentalOp]

67. I understand that you believe that but I disagree that it's true.

As far as I understand it, the superdelegates are under no obligation to vote for Sanders just because he stayed in the race. They could all vote for O'Malley if they wanted, right? Or is there some rule that says they can only vote for candidates who are actively running?

[gordianot]

44. I admit it I do not have a clue what will happen.

No one in a position to know has told me beyond speculation what will happen. Other than Hillary Clinton having the most delegates and that has different numbers it looks as if Hillary will be the nominee of the Democratic Party. I expect to see more Roger Clinton stories.

[MohRokTah]

47. Why would Hillary be indicted?

Why would she be indicted? There was no criminal act committed at any time and nobody reputable has ever accused her of committing a crime.

[Bill USA]

50. what are you missing. Not much, just REALITY.

[ContinentalOp]

53. explain

[floriduck]

51. What you're missing is what vanity Hillary has. She'd NEVER drop out. NEVER EVER.

[ContinentalOp]

52. So what's the point of Sanders staying in?

[840high]

58. That was explained up thread.

[ContinentalOp]

62. No it really wasn't

Sanders supporters seem to be under the delusion that some big bombshell is going to come out before the convention and the superdelegates will all switch to Sanders. And that this is somehow only possible if he "takes it to the convention." That makes no sense. The longer he stays in the less likely that becomes, as the party insiders get more and more sick of him constantly attacking the party and the primary process. It would be far more likely if he dropped out and supported the nominee!

[floriduck]

64. We just have a communication problem. Neither of us understands the other. But that's okay.

[ContinentalOp]

66. are you posting under multiple names?

because if not your sole contribution to the thread was "What you're missing is what vanity Hillary has. She'd NEVER drop out. NEVER EVER." Which I understood perfectly fine. And don't even necessarily disagree with you on that! It still has nothing to do with my point.