2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhat does Bernie actually want? In reality. Specifically what is he fighting for now?
He's not fighting for the nomination anymore, that's done. But he is fighting for something else. What is it? And I don't mean some vague thing like "fighting for principles" or whatever.
I mean, specifically what is the thing that he wants to see happen that is keeping him from endorsing Hillary. Does he want that the party adopts some stuff of his in the platform? Is he after a better speaking slot at the convention? Does he want to give a bit of a "fuck you" to Hillary and the party, is it just spite?
I don't really know, I'm interested in opinions. But specific things, not just platitudes like "fighting the oligarchs". What does he actually want now?
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)BobbyDrake
(2,542 posts)liberal N proud
(60,332 posts)He needs to be adored
Response to YouDig (Original post)
Post removed
YouDig
(2,280 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 8, 2016, 11:20 AM - Edit history (1)
It's all about Bernie.
There must be a goal and I agree with you, YouDig. Senator Sanders has decades of governmental and political experience. His strategy isn't about his ego and I'm sure he has something in mind, even though he hasn't made that clear.
During the primary process, while I supported Secretary Clinton, I was continually dismayed by the vitriolic attacks against Senator Sanders by a few of her loudly vocal supporters. The still-continuing attacks against Secretary Clinton by an equally small percentage of Senator Sanders' supporters is beyond disappointing. Our focus must be redirected to the real enemy: the Republicans.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)He has always stood in the background. Leaders do not do that.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)PJMcK
(21,995 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)Which didn't get in the way of the best candidate winning in 2008.
I'm not sure where to give in there. States are always going to want to do it their way; does Bernie want to dictate open primaries everywhere? I'm in NY and I like a closed primary, which not only keeps people who aren't Democrats from helping to choose our nominee, but encourages voters to join the party, which is a good goal, eh?
And caucuses...as an Obama supporter in 2008, I loved them. In fact, without them, he might not have been able to defeat Hillary. As the follow-up primaries in NE and WA, Bernie did much better by them as well.
So I'm a bit mystified on the process side. Hopefully, he tries to score a few policy goals and moves forward as a Democrat helping to build a new majority. I have my doubts.
LexVegas
(6,024 posts)think
(11,641 posts)Maybe he wants what other countries know their citizens deserve rather than what corporations want.
But you wouldn't understand that would you....
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Specifics I'm after.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)THAT is the very beginning of her vilification by the GOP. She tried to get it done 25 years ago. Hillary bashers have some sort of agenda that is very baffling. They hate her and say they won;t support her, but will go and vote for the guy that has guaranteed to destroy them. Yep, staying at hoe and not voting for Hhillary IS the same as voting for Trump. Keep asking these guys that same question!
YouDig
(2,280 posts)everything else, is because she got on the top national stage and fought for exactly what the Berners want, and did it way before anyone else, and didn't flinch at all the fire from the right.
And now those same Berners are joining in the right-wing witch-hunts against her.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I have posted about this many times.
I lived in Arkansas from 76-84, and then of course followed Bill and Hill's careers closely as he was moving into the national spotlight. I am ashamed to say in those years I was on the other team, but respected them both of them. Things were not as polarized. Hillary tried like hell to get health care done but things were so different then. If only the young kids who criticize past action of people over twice there age could have been there! The country was just way more conservative. Had Bernie actually made it on a mainstream ticket he would have lost all 50 states. Even MA would not have supported a socialist back in the 80's. Hell, even Vermont did not support Bernie till the late 80's as a congressman in their only urban district.
Hillary was vilified when she put out Healthcare, and it was defeated by a Democratic house. In case any young folks are reading, the Democratic party had held the house since the Great Deal!! 50 years!!
And health care and guns, plus the rise of right wing media finally broke the Democratic lock on the house.
But any way this is not a history lesson. When Bernie supporters beat her up for being 'weak' on health care I want to scream. Perhaps if their demi-god had actually joined a team, got in the trenches and done some dirty work, things would have been better.
But he just wanted to keep himself clean so he could go back to homogeneous population of Burlington and brag how pure he was.
Sorry for the diatribe.
annavictorious
(934 posts)when a Democratic congress and a Democratic president were reforming healthcare. Sanders had a chance in 2009, made a half-hearted effort, and then caved and voted for the ACA.
Sanders's is big on talk, but very, very short on results.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Free universal public education k-16.
Increasing and expanding social security.
National 15 min wage.
An end to perpetual war.
Massive investment in transforming our public infrastructure for the 21st century.
Ending our dependence on fossil fuels.
Ending the war on drugs and our mass incarceration society.
Equality under the law for everyone.
More at his website.
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)However, there is a little thing called Congress, and unless we get the House which if he chose Bernie could help with...none of it will happen. Real life bites...the Dems all want those things but have no way with the current government to make it happen. Putting it in the platform might be satisfying, but it is meaningless without congress.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)And by the way we aren't idiots. There is lots of activity going on with the millions of Sanders supporters to work on down ticket candidates across the country.
tonyt53
(5,737 posts)Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)say goodbye to your movement because we lose the courts.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Tactics here. Contesting the convention will not bring about a 15 min wage. Obviously. It also won't make him the nominee.
All I can think of that it will do is make Trump more likely to win.
Demsrule86
(68,456 posts)There is nothing short of the nomination that would satisfy him.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)He's fighting for principle, progressive principles to be exact
Party over principle... this is the bit, HRC and her supporters embrace and what they fail to understand about Bernie's campaign
Simply put, DEM establishment is in uncharted waters, they have NO bearing to guide them... their flailing until convention will be a thing to behold...
'Sore winner' will be the tamest of the adjectives to define them...
Principle matters so much more than party.. and this lesson will hurt... and hurt badly rolling into and through convention but one DEM establishment will learn
YouDig
(2,280 posts)He's making a decision to not endorse Hillary and instead fight on futilely.
What does he hope that is going to make happen that would help his principles become enacted? Specifics.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)You will have to reposition your endless dreary attacks next week.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)I dunno, that politico article makes it seem like he's going to "contest the convention."
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)agree to disagree... you won't, nor ever will get the core of what this movement supports
I will detail it out here but it won't registers with ya, that's really why you posted
Bernie has been in this fight throughout his tenure as a public servant
this was posted in this thread which you didn't comment on
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512156944#post11
you wanted a 'specifics', let's start with those
YouDig
(2,280 posts)How does he think that contesting the convention will make any of those policies more likely to happen? Seems to me, pretty obvious really, that what he's doing helps Trump, and makes all that stuff less likely to happen.
What's his plan? He can't possibly think that contesting the convention will bring about single payer. What does he think it will bring about?
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)how afraid will establishment be, by the time convention rolls around, of this movement Bernie has created?
Do you believe massive amounts of people involved in a movement isn't a 'tactic'?
Interesting you decided to pivot to Trump in this latest reply... what 'tactic' are you employing here?
I get you are confused... but then again that's not my problem
I've presented the bits that will get you to the answer, you choose to ignore those breadcrumbs... again, relax, enjoy the ride
annavictorious
(934 posts)and the delusional ambition came from the top down. The only thing Sanders cared about is self-aggrandizement. The guy has no principles.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/bernie-sanders-campaign-last-days-224041
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)you're entitled to your own perception, but you're not entitled to your own facts
Progressive/Liberal principles over party, enjoy the ride as we close in on convention and through convention
Haveadream
(1,630 posts)Bernie's approach is so unfailingly adversarial it undermines cooperation from those he needs to make his policies happen. As Barney Frank said, "Bernie alienates his natural allies". His antagonism has a lot to do with why so many of his policies have languished. This latest, "to the convention!" example is one where he insists on framing himself as a revolutionary who must rail against the very system he needs and instead just obsessively protests. At this point, he seems to want the "struggle" much more than the goal. All he is teaching the Dem establishment is that he is uninterested in getting things done.
Unfortunately, it is Bernie who seems to be failing and flailing and in uncharted waters. If anything, it is Bernie and his goals that are being hurt. His cause would be well served if he were able to pivot from his role as passionate agitator to enthusiastic policy maker but unfortunately, that skill does not seem to be in his wheelhouse. That is a big reason most voters chose Hillary. I say this as someone who wants nearly all of the shifts in the political and legislative landscape he addresses. Outside of his most ardent supporters, most people see Bernie and his abilities as combative, uncoordinated and ineffective. There is a reason so many of his staff are disenchanted now that they have gotten to know him.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)you're entitled to your own perception but not your own facts
ancianita
(35,932 posts)The Something Else Bernie and Berners Want:
1. Bernie Sanders wants to keep his word to FINISH the primary, THEN he can concede.
2.. Berners want restructured party platform to set progressive goals and remove pro-corporate goals.
3. To get rid of Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
4. To get Hillary to actually lay out a progressive agenda during her campaign.
5. To get Hillary to pledge NOT to end or sign any legislation that rescinds any current social safety net programs for Americans -- Social Security, etc.
6. To get Hillary to pledge to have the party monetarily support new progressives trying to enter national party politics -- finally.
7. To put progressives into whip positions within Congress, whether or not downticket wins get us a majority, which they should.
There's more, but you can hear them from others.
Seriously, so many of you Hillary supporters have been in denial about her past record, so lucky in the utter stupidity of her Republican opponent, that you have not even cared to TRY to see just how important some actual, solid structural changes in this party, government and society need to be.
Obama can see it, or he'd not have called and talked with Bernie about what will happen. So why can't you Hillary people??
Depending on concessions from Hillary -- which she'd be stupid not to make -- Bernie will endorse her.
Then the movement decides to split or unite.
Seriously, after all this discussion, I can't believe any Berner still has to explain this shit to a Hillary supporter.
Anyway, onward. I suppose I could see this thread as a summation of what's to be expected.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)1 I have no problem if he waits until after DC to concede. As long as it's soon after that.
2 Sure
3 Fine with me
4 She already has
5 She already won't
6,7 These are tough, because it depends on what you mean by "progressive". I don't know how they could really work this out on paper.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)Thanks.
But you could have made the effort to know this all along.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)Youdig doesn't want to make the effort that much is known, these posts will happen more and more as we close in on convention...
no matter how many times you point them to the facts the more they will ignore them
YouDig
(2,280 posts)I don't see how he can get a commitment from Hillary to monetarily fund progressive candidates. I dunno, maybe he can. What does that look like? Like does Bernie get a special amount of DNC money that he gets to give to any candidate he wants?
I dunno maybe. I wouldn't be opposed to that. I don't know if that's against some rule or not. I'd like to see more progressive candidates at all levels, but I don't know what can be done in terms of making concrete DNC policy about that. How do you see it playing out?
ancianita
(35,932 posts)from the nation's fucked up, sellout capital on down.
They just got Debbie Wasserman Schultz to give up her fucked up support of payday lenders that come from her banker owners, for chrissake. That alone should tell you something about how sold out the party is.
Seriously glad you wouldn't oppose that, but it wouldn't be Bernie who doles out party money to progressives; it's the party chair. As for 'the rules,' who gives a shit about rules that rig the use of our tax money away from all of us?! Who gives a shit about rules in the party that suppress poll access across the country. Who. No one who's sane.
As for the concreteness of policy...
The DNC has state structure. NEW RULES, as Maher would say, get dictated from the national party level, and states go forward with state level legislation and support that reflects it.
I have ideas but I can't predict how it all will play out. The shift to the left needs to have national optics, speech support from Clinton, Obama and Sanders, and then we will see spirits have more hope nationally. This took eight years of rope-a-dope defense by Obama.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Bernie is going to get the Dems to commit money to progressive candidates in downballot primaries, it needs to be an actual plan.
And here's the problem. If there's a "progressive fund" with some strings attached, and a sitting Democrat gets primaried by someone using money from the "progressive fund", that sitting Democrat is going to be really pissed, as are all of his/her supporters. It's just not as simple as "commit to supporting progressives".
Here's the other issue. Bernie supporters generally don't like the DNC having a heavy hand. But you are proposing is having a heavy hand, but just a progressive heavy hand instead of a DWS heavy hand.
As far as national optics and progressive speeches from Clinton and Obama, I'm in favor of that. My opinion is Hillary has already given plenty of progressive speeches. But whatever, give more of them, yes. I support the Dems moving left.
But the thing I support more than anything, by a lot, is not having Trump be president. I hope you see where I'm coming from with that.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)I see where you and I both come from about Trump.
But that's just not all going to do it for us Berners who've fought for fifty years to keep an economically stronger society.
There won't be a fund marked "progressive." There will just continue to be the general party fund.
"It isn't that simple"? There you go again. Pay. Attention. The millions of Berners and lots of states and a close delegate count show that the country IS ready for a turn left. And it IS that simple.
But first and foremost, Clinton has got to unite voters with valid, reasonable and passionate demands to turn left in governance. Or the party will become exactly like the Republican party that shallow minds have claimed all along.
Hillary will go left. She'll can handle the tyrannical idiocy of a Trump that even his own staff can't handle. Believe that.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)I think it would be GREAT if they turned left. I think they already are.
That doesn't change that I think Bernie, if he contests the convention, is hurting basically everything he stands for. If we go into the general election not united behind Hillary, the only one who wins is Trump. That's what I'm saying.
I don't take Trump lightly. He's a crazy racist. That's what the GOP base is. He could win. The Dems need to focus and put in 100% effort the whole time and never take him lightly.
I think Hillary will go left. She already has. I think she's always been left, and went a little right out of ambition but now she's coming back to where she always was.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)You know what matchup polls show. That way more would vote FOR Sanders than FOR Trump.
Now all you've got to be proud of, if you didn't have Bernie, is people who'll vote AGAINST.
No way for a country to vote -- fear-driven and spiteful, like our historical opposition.
I'd like to think that Hillary loves seeing all this progressivism as her ticket to be as I hope she always was without her hubz around.
Best of luck for all of us.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Yeah I know the matchup polls. I think they would change drastically if Bernie was the nominee, and instead of welcoming Bernie the GOP and Trump would start attacking him.
Doesn't matter though. Hillary is the nominee. I'm sure some people will be voting for her just to be against Trump. Which is great. Every vote is a vote, and not-Trump is great reason to vote.
But a lot more people will be voting FOR Hillary. Like I will. Like the majority of Democratic primary voters will. And even the majority of people who voted for Bernie will too, they aren't hateful like some Bernie people online are.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)what you would never have gotten from Hillary if he and others hadn't pushed her to give it to you.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)ancianita
(35,932 posts)YouDig
(2,280 posts)Truth is, a lot of us Hillers are with you more than not on policy questions. But we're terrified of Trump. I'm terrified of Trump. I'm for a lot of what Bernie talks about, maybe not all, but I'm there lots of the time.
But I'm scared of Trump, and I think it is totally possible that he could win and that would be horrible. Hopefully everybody finds their way to make peace with each other and take him on 100%. The orange orangutan. Can't become president.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)(and don't take this all that literally, since I'm an atheist...but the words here are the heart of Berner success)
QC
(26,371 posts)others are here to prevent others from engaging in meaningful discussion.
It's important to know which are which.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)I'd prefer that to pigeonholing.
QC
(26,371 posts)ancianita
(35,932 posts)annavictorious
(934 posts)no matter how entitled they consider themselves to be.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)Obama and Clinton, as you are obviously unaware -- and insistent about it, too boot -- know that this party has had to come to structural change terms with the millions and states that Bernie represents.
And so they will no matter how much you want things to stay simple and status quo.
This is not a winner-take-all party.
But if you insist on that kind of thinking maybe you'd prefer the Republican way of running a party.
texstad79
(115 posts)and they love being in front of adoring crowds.
Faux pas
(14,644 posts)for everything the establishment is against. Easy peesy.
jamese777
(546 posts)I think I know what Bernie Sanders is still fighting for:
1) The issues that matter the most to him and his supporters especially income inequality.
2) To fight on till the very end, there is only one primary left. He's not a quitter.
I don't begrudge Senator Sanders either of those goals, its only another week. He will also make his case at the convention. That's a good thing.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...more money for education, less money for wars and useless Wall Streeters. Civil rights and health care for all.
And a nominee who will be on board with some or most of these things, and commit to them.