Should the next Democratic president apologize to Latin America for all past US intervention?

[Ken Burch]

Last edited Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:48 AM - Edit history (1)

Corollary question: should that president agree to leave Latin America alone from now on?

Second corollary question...if not, why not?

(If anyone is voting no because they supported HRC in the primaries and see this as an attack on her, you've got my intentions wrong here. It is not a comment about her in the slightest).

34 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, she should apologize
	15 (44%)
	No, she should not apologize
	17 (50%)
	No opinion
	2 (6%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[msongs]

1. should all the native american groups who ever attacked each other apologize? nt

[Ken Burch]

2. That's up to them(some have, I think). Not comparable to what I was talking about at all.

What our country's past leaders have done in the hemisphere shapes the way every Latin American person and nation sees us.

Is there any act of US economic or military intervention in Latin America you could ever defend?

If you're not up on the history, here is General Smedley Butler with a tutorial on some of it:

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

[oasis]

3. No.

[Ken Burch]

4. Because...?

n/t.

[oasis]

9. To what purpose? Hillary knows she'll need to take care of the

concerns of the American public before addressing anything else.

[Ken Burch]

11. How would this conflict with that?

No U.S. interventions in Latin America were ever about taking care of "the concerns of the American public".

[oasis]

13. Not on the top 100 list of most Americans. Priorities. nt

[Ken Burch]

15. It wouldn't take any significant amount of time.

The priorities would still get dealt with.

[oasis]

18. press conferences etc. + Off message on what would currently be going on.

Not going to happen.

[David__77]

5. With regard to the first question, perhaps some.

I think that an apology if optimally specific in referencing time, place, and event. "All past US interventions" is much to broad and imprecise, in my opinion. And, no, I don't think the president should agree to leave Latin America alone. I do think that the president should agree to relations based on mutual agreement.

[Ken Burch]

10. by "leave alone", I don't mean have nothing at all to do with those countries.

Just not to interfere with, economically blockade, destabilize, overthrow(or enable military coups against) any of them.

Does that change your opinion of the poll question?

[Ken Burch]

7. I agree totally on the need to acknowledge all of the miseries inflicted on Native Americans

and slave descendants. Everyone on the American left would. I'm a bit surprised that you'd think otherwise, and I'm sorry if I managed to give any impressions to the contrary.

Can you point me to anyone on the post-1950 U.S. Left who has actually said that what white American capitalism has done to people of color doesn't matter? That slavery and the genocide inflicted on Native Americans is no big deal?

There is no actual disagreement between you and the left on any of this.

[okasha]

24. Do you even begin to realize how utterly inadequate

"acknowledging the miseries" would be? Or how patronizing that is? How about moving the federal government toward honoring the treaties? How about taking the 14th. Amendment seriously in justice issues involving all people of color?

As for Latin America, the first and best apology would be to knock down the border fence. Proceed from there.

[Ken Burch]

25. I totally agree with everything you've said there.

Acknowledgement as a term wasn't meant to be passive or minimalist.

And the fence is an abomination, but we need to go beyond that:

We need to say to the other nations of the Americas that we admit we never had any right to stop them or try to stop them running their affairs the way they wished to, that we will never do that again, and then move towards some form of reparations, as we should also do with the Native American nations and the descendants of slaves.

[okasha]

28. You realize that would have to be done individually?

Latin America is far more diverse than say, Europe.

[Ken Burch]

35. Yes, but it is about our overall mindset towards the hemisphere.

We used the Monroe Doctrine as an excuse to treat Latin America as OUR empire.

A nation that was supposed to be all about freedom never had any excuse for acting like an imperial power.

[tonedevil]

42. And yet they were all...

subject to "classes" from the School of the Americas.

[Scootaloo]

8. Arguing over who goes first just ensures nothing is addressed.

Which I suppose is what you're angling for.

[Ken Burch]

26. Scotaloo wasn't the poster making fatuous remarks about Native Americans needing to apologize. n/t.

[killbotfactory]

12. We need a truth and reconciliation commission with Latin America. Nt

[Ken Burch]

17. Good point. n/t.

[Tal Vez]

14. I suppose that there is a sense in which everyone should apologize to everyone else for everything,

but no one would be the better for it. We are all Americans and we share a long history. If we want to improve our hemisphere, then we should focus on that.

[Ken Burch]

16. Admission of wrong is part of the process of improvement.

It's not possible to erase history and still improve much of anything.

[Tal Vez]

29. Actually, I look forward to the day when we might be able to unify our hemisphere,

but I recognize that it will not happen tomorrow. Long before that will come a unified economic zone that includes the whole hemisphere. I think we should propose that now. However, I recognize that there are many folks in this country on both the right and on the left who want to reduce our trade agreements. That is where the real work needs to be done. If someone can show me that an apology for this or that will make Americans more responsive to proposals for economic or political unification, then I don't mind apologizing for anything. Maybe we can start with our creation of Panama and the canal that cuts across it.

Todos somos Americanos.

[Ken Burch]

30. If, by Americans, you mean the peoples of this hemisphere, an apology will do a lot.

An admission that we were wrong to overthrow or destabilize every government we ever did that to in Latin America would help.

We need to stop seeing the other countries of this hemisphere as inferior nations we have every right to dominate.

[Tal Vez]

32. If it will help, I'll sign it. Write it up!

[Downwinder]

19. What good is a false apology?

Who is sorry they interfered in Latin America? Kissinger? A sign that it won't happen again?

[Ken Burch]

31. Not Kissinger himself, obviously

But it would matter if our incoming head of state made it clear that we get it that pretty much everything we did to Latin America was wrong and that we will now commit never to doing anything like that again, that would do a lot of good.

A world whose wounds are being healed is going to be a world that's easier to work with.

[Downwinder]

33. Actions speech louder than words.

Pull our operatives out before we make false apologies.

[Ken Burch]

34. We need to do both.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that we STOP at an apology.

[Downwinder]

37. Apologize posthumously to Edmund and Elizabeth Horman?

Joyce is still alive, maybe she would accept an apology.

[Ken Burch]

39. That would help.

And to the widow and children of Victor Jara, the legendary Chilean singer-songwriter beaten to death by the Chilean Army in the coup(we could also extradite the retired Chilean military officer who oversaw the beating).

[okasha]

38. The single best thing the US could do for Latin Americs

is shut down the market for illegal drugs in this country. Cartel violence is a plague from the Mexican border south, and trying to deal with it diverts local governments from projects that would actually help people. That's a lot of work compared to saying "We're sorry," though.

[Ken Burch]

40. That should be done too.

Last edited Mon Jun 27, 2016, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)

You keep trying to start an argument between us and I don't actually disagree with anything you've said so far.

Why the hostility? Why the suspicion?

I don't have a hidden agenda here.

[okasha]

43. I'm not tryong to start an argument.

I'm just pointing out the futility of an "apology" without any apparent policy to follow it up. What do you want the US government to do that would benefit Native Americans and Latin Americans? What do you see that you personally could do to further their betterment?

[Ken Burch]

44. The apology is meant as a starting point.

As to your question about what I want done...well, I'd like to see the US do what Native Americans, Latin Americans(indluding indigenous Latin Americans and Latin Americans of African descent) and the descendants would like it to do.

Beyond that, I'd like our country's leaders to scrap the Monroe Doctrine and stop treating the Americas as if the US is the leader of a hemispheric empire. It should be sufficient for us to be one nation among equals on this land mass.

I don't have a single, detailed plan because the plan needs to be drafted by all the people of "Nuestra America", or Turtle Island.

[okasha]

45. There can be no "plan"

that covers everyone between Alaska and Tierra del Fuego. Many of Latin America's problems have far more to do with residual effects of Spanish colonialism than with the US, including an inured racial class/caste system. That system continues to produce European-style oligarchies and huge income inequalities that go back beyond the founding of the United States. The US has been complicit in those evils, of course, but it is neither the sole cause nor the cure. For many, the most pressing need is relief from organized criminal violence. The best help the US can give there is to break the North American ties to that violence by ceasing to be consumers of its products.


What Native Americans in the US would like the government to do, for starters:
1. Honor the treaties.
2. Recognize genuine tribal sovereignty.
Beyond that, we can talk about the concerns of each Nation.

I don't presume to speak for African Americans. My remarks here are those of a Native American born and partly raised in Mexico, whose father grew up in Costa Rica. I acknowledge your good intentions, but apologies do not solve problems.

[Ken Burch]

46. I never claimed that apologies by themselves solve all problems.

But nothing can be done without them. There is no way to make a just future if the US doesn't admit it was chiefly to blame for the unjust past. History must be addressed.

[okasha]

47. How many apology dominos do we need?

Spain to indigenous peoples, France to Haiti, whites to everyone else, US government to all and sundry?

Apologies are empty air. Show me action.

[Ken Burch]

48. We need all of those AND action.

You appear to think that I'm calling for apologies as the end of the matter. I'm not.

[okasha]

67. Perhaps not.

But when you say that the US was "chiefly responsible" for an "unjust past" throughout the Americas, you're simply wrong. The genocide of the indigenous population by Spanish and Portuguese forces began some 250 years before the United States came into existence. The genocide under Spain extended from Argentina and Chile, where it was almost complete, to California, where a number of tribes were extinguished. That is the first and foundational sin
in the hemisphere, and its effects are still felt.

Exploitation by the US is an overlay of that oppression, and has been made possible largely through alliances with local European-style dictators. Galtieri, Somoza, Pinochet come to mind.

It's in North America that the US is primarily guilty, and what is needed is far, far beyond an apology. Yes, you keep saying you see the need for more, but you don't seem to be able to name even one specific measure the government might take. That's pretty useless.

[Ken Burch]

70. The unjust past since at least 1820, then.

When the Spanish and Portuguese empires ended, the US had no business stepping in and becoming the new oppressor. We owed it, if nothing else, to our own ideals to immediately give the Americas full self-determination.

[okasha]

73. See my reply to your post 63.

[joshcryer]

21. The CIAs cold war meddling should be apologized for, certainly.

[Exilednight]

22. Yes, specifically what Friedman and Kissinger did in Chile.

[AgingAmerican]

23. It goes much deeper than just US interventionalism

But that would be a good start.

Most American's don't understand why Latin American is the way it is. Why Castro and Che are heroes in Latin American countries. The enemy of Latin America is capitalism, in the colonial mold, and neoliberalism which is essentially corporate colonialism.

[Ken Burch]

27. Absolutely. n/t.

[George II]

50. Castro and Che are heroes in Latin America?

[AgingAmerican]

52. Yes

There is a book that is read by all high schoolers in Latin American countries called, "Open veins of Latin America". Anyone who reads that book understands why.

[George II]

53. Did you see what the author said about his own work?

The author himself, however, repudiated the book many years later in 2014, saying that at that time, he "was not qualified to tackle the subject and that it was badly written." He added: “I wouldn’t be capable of reading this book again; I’d keel over. For me, this prose of the traditional left is extremely leaden, and my physique can’t tolerate it.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Veins_of_Latin_America

[AgingAmerican]

54. Irrelevent

The book is required reading for all school children in Latin American Countries.

[George II]

55. No it isn't. In fact it's been banned in several Latin American countries.

[AgingAmerican]

56. Yes it is

Banned by some hard right wing governments.

I have a degree in Hispanic studies, so you are biting off far more than you can chew.

[George II]

58. Well, this is what you said:

"The book is required reading for all school children in Latin American Countries."

And since it's banned in several countries, that can't be true, can it?

[AgingAmerican]

60. It was banned in the 70s

In Uruguay, Chile and Argentina when those countries were run by fascist right wing Junta's.

It is required reading for school aged children in Latin America. I don't expect you to understand.

[Ken Burch]

65. Exactly.

Being banned by a fascist junta is the best possible recommendation any book can get.

[Ken Burch]

64. presumably when the military dictatorships were in power.

Che and Fidel happened because of the bloodyminded attitude the US had towards Latin America.

[George II]

66. But the point is that it was stated that this book was REQUIRED reading for all students...

....in Latin American countries. Clearly that is not true, for whatever reasons.

[Ken Burch]

68. Required reading for all students in Latin American countries without a military junta in power.

It's like disputing the artistic legitimacy of a painting or sculpture by saying it was destroyed by Hitler.

[George II]

69. So it's a qualified "required reading", if even that.

[Ken Burch]

71. It doesn't discredit the statement if the book was only taken off the reading list

because the generals took power.

I'm not even a defender of Che and Fidel...It's just that we need to recognize that they were caused by U.S. imperialist arrogance in the Americas. If we had accepted, starting in 1823(as we should have)that every country in the Americas had the right to self-determination, there would never have been anything like Fidelismo, because it would not have been seen as necessary by the desperately dispossessed.

We should have accepted every election result and agreed that the resources of each country in the Americas existed first for the good of the people of that country.

[AgingAmerican]

77. It is required reading...

Usually in High School.

I do not understand why this irks you so much. Read the book and you will understand.

[Old Union Guy]

36. I'm inclined to say yes, but just to stop doing it already would be enough. n/t

[Ken Burch]

41. I think some people here are voting no because they think this is an attack on HRC.

It isn't. There is no anti-Clinton intent on my part is posting this poll.

Please trust me on that.

[George II]

49. Why?

[NCTraveler]

51. No. As with many of our relationships we simply start to foster them....

In a more positive manner. These are things that occur over time. Not overnight.

[MyNameGoesHere]

59. Yes and every American company should

be under review for violations of exploitation and if found guilty made to make reparations and never be allowed to do business in central, South America, the carribean, or North America. Then dissolve the company, do not allow it to be sold. I fear for Cuba, the vultures are circling already.

[LanternWaste]

61. To what specific and measurable end?

To what specific and measurable end?

[Agnosticsherbet]

62. Apologies are cheap. They do not fix the problems.

I would rather see negotiations with all affected nations and groups to solve the problems.

[Ken Burch]

63. And again, I wasn't suggesting that apologies were ALL that was needed.

But we can't negotiate without apologizing and admitting wrong.

[okasha]

72. Can and have.

How about we revitalize the OAS?

[Ken Burch]

74. Only if it ceases to be something that the US gives orders to.

There was never any reason for the OAS to be run like the NATO of the Americas.

What is it about admitting wrong that bothers you so much?

It's not as though the world expects the US to pretend to be infallible.

Apologies are strength, not weakness.

[okasha]

75. My problem with this sort of apology

is that its chief purpose is to relieve the apologizer's guilt.

Those who insist on such apologies are usually ill- informed about the issues and tend to do very little beyond apologizing.

It's a pattern, and I do not trust it.

[Ken Burch]

76. That isn't the chief purpose I have.

What I'm saying is, to move forward, we have to address the past, we must honor and validate the feelings of those who were wronged.

They need to hear us say "We get it. There is no excuse for what those who came before us did to your ancestors or for what we have done even recently in places like Haiti and Honduras. We won't do that anymore and we want to work with you on creating a whole different way of doing things here in the Americas".

[akbacchus_BC]

78. Why, the US never apologizes for any wrong doing in any part of the world!

Look at how they took down Iraq, held a kangaroo court and murdered Sadaam Hussein. The US is always right, the people they need to apologise to and uphold their living style is the indigenous people and help the people from the Appalachia to better their lives. Most mainstream people can survive but those communities are dying of neglect.