Have you lost faith in America?

[djsunyc]

if you are to believe the polls, a huge contingent of this country supports trump.

the republican party has already stated they will try and sabotage clinton's impending presidency.

how can you witness this and look at children and continue to tell them how great this country is?

[moonscape]

1. I surely hope when this is over, that Obama

will still surface now and again with optimistic speeches about how great we are, how he has faith in the American people, etc. Have a feeling I'll be needing that.

[Saboburns]

2. Yes, 12 years ago actually

When W got re selected. I couldn't figure out how anybody as hopelessly lost as he obviously was could get re elected. Until afterwards when I honestly took a quiet, long look at Americans.

I had never noticed how ignorant we are. How racist we are. How afraid we are.

It was like walking through a door that I could never travel back out of. It wasn't easy on me, my cognitive dissonance.

And now, now I am hopelessly cynical.

[marybourg]

3. Wasn't your faith buoyed up

when we voted for our first black President - twice? Mine was.

I still have faith that we'll make the right decision again. Bur I do reject the notion that we're any different from, for instance, the Germans. Or that we're "exceptional". We were only "exceptional" so long as we were protected by two great oceans.

Now that that barricade has been breached, it's become evident that we're no better nor worse than everybody else on the planet.

[TrekLuver]

5. Yes it was absolutely...I was so proud of us that night. So how in the world can we go

from Obama to Trump...it just doesn't make sense. Trashbag just cannot win. He can't!!!!

[PdxSean]

11. Complacency?

Republicans caught us sleeping and kicked our asses. Democrats ignored warnings that Republicans were gerrymandering their way into a stronghold in the House; Democrats heeled whenever Republicans so much as threatened to filibuster; and democrats repeatedly took water balloons to gun fights.

Remember the joke about the turtle and the snake? Snake asks turtle for a ride across the pond. Turtle says "WTF? You're a fucking snake!" And the snake says "I won't bite you, I just need a ride to the other side. Wanting to be neighborly, turtle gives snake a ride across the pond. Once on the other side, snake promptly bites turtle. Outraged, turtle says "You said you wouldn't bite me!" Snake says "Don't blame me. You knew I was a snake when you gave me a ride."

The only question is whether democrats are ready to accept the fact that republicans represent a clear and present danger to America.

[MineralMan]

21. Hmm...and yet, we have Obama in the White House.

Elected twice. While I sort of understand your concern, it is misplaced.

Don't fret. VOTE!

[moonscape]

10. I was also so very proud. Black, sure, but even more than the American

people were saying we want someone with dignity, intelligence, thoughtfulness, even-keeled - it was his qualities that sent me soaring with optimism.

[Emilybemily]

4. I am getting close.

This election has made me doubt that this country can survive when millions of people want to vote for a lying, cheating, philandering, racist, misogynist, ignorant asshole crook like Dump.

[MineralMan]

22. Don't worry. VOTE!

Doubt doubt. VOTE!

[Emilybemily]

30. Oh I always vote.

Every single election without fail. But as a woman who was sexually assaulted, Dump scares me to my core. That asshole should be in prison for many reasons.

[cry baby]

7. Yes, in almost 1/2 of it.

I'm depressed about it, too, because I'm an optimistic person and it's just damn well disappointing to hear the hatred and fear spread by trumpsters...and there are millions of them.

[LibraLiz1973]

8. Honestly it's pretty rough right now

People on the Right are walking talking propaganda machines and it's vile. The vast majority of them are voting against their own self interests, which is insanity to me. They like to espouse that they've taken the moral high ground, but that's BS. Pretty sure if Jesus came back today he'd tell them to sit the fuck down and learn how to love thy neighbor.

I'll decide how I feel going forward after next Tuesday. If that Tangerine Tyrant is voted in......
I just can't.

[PdxSean]

9. Actually, . . .

Despite its violent history of racism and sexism, America elected a black man as President TWICE, and is about to elect its first female President. We were slow to evolve, but we're getting there.

Trump peeled the scab on a wound that has been festering in America for centuries. Watching the pus ooze out is kinda sickening, but it's still part of the healing process.

No, I haven't lost faith in America. Even if Trump were to eke out a win, I'd still think our ideals are worth fighting for. For those who say they'd move to Canada - Go! I'll be right here raising all kinds of left-wing hell until we get it right.

[ochem]

12. if dems win senate

and no hearings are held about FBI corruption, yes. It will mean America as we know it is over.

[Eggy]

13. Never

I'm an immigrant, and my home country still doesn't have democracy. The first vote I ever cast was for president Obama. Now I get to vote for a woman for president. It's like a dream come true.

I do not believe in good things happening just because I wish for it. America is not going to become a better country, nore tolerant, more equal, just because I want it to be. I have to do everything I can to make that happen. And the fact that I have that power, right here in my vote, is why I will always have faith.

[socialist_n_TN]

16. To put it into Marxist terms..........

US propaganda has always touted a petit bourgeois storyline for the country. Which was, more or less, true during the early part of the history of the country when there were huge unexploited areas for capitalism to expand into. As those areas for expansion have shrunk over the last 100 years plus, the laws of finance and monopoly capitalism have taken effect and eroded away this version of the story, but the narrative hasn't changed.

Without that space to expand, capitalism grows into what we see today, a system where economic inequality is paramount and prominent and where all the laws support and exacerbate that inequality.

Most people still believe the "land of opportunity" story line when the truth is that "opportunity", in the vast majority of cases, will have to be inherited. When enough people start to disbelieve the storyline (this election), you go into one of two modes, sharing the wealth or blaming the "other" for your personal lack of opportunity. The fault is in the system, but most people, even on here, won't see that. So they'll blame the "other". And that "other" can be blacks, Muslims, Latinos. Or it can be Republican "obstructionists". Hence, the polarization that will only get worse.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

17. Yep. It was far easier for the USA to be a land of opportunity when...

... there was more room to expand.

Our economy also received a jolt after WW2 when most of the other industrialized countries around the world had been devastated by bombings.

Many Americans prefer to hold onto old notions of "the American dream," and they're confused by worsening economic conditions that their parents didn't go through.

Arguing that people need better educations to remain competitive is fundamentally true, but I've met many people over the years (from early childhood to today) who simply aren't wired well for academic success. What's their destination in our increasingly technological world? Prison? Death by drug overdose?

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Good point about the post-WWII economic jolt.........

And it's no coincidence that that's when the social democratic reforms REALLY started to take off. The earlier batch of social democratic reforms in the 30s (the New Deal) was won because of social unrest by workers, but the post-WWII "jolt" allowed those reforms to be set and expanded BECAUSE there was room for the system to expand and make enough profit to give some back to the workers to keep the profit chain moving without strikes interrupting that profit chain. But that's also why even Sanders' nostalgia for those social democratic reforms that were attacked and cut back by the Reagan Revolution wouldn't have worked. The material conditions that allowed those reforms in the first place are no longer extant.

And yes, people are prone to hold on to a positive vision, ESPECIALLY when it was true once and has been relentlessly propagandized for over two centuries. The inclination when confronted by worsening, personal economic conditions is to seek blame. They can blame, themselves (and that's been encouraged too), they can blame "others" (whoever those "others" are depending on political view) or they can blame the true cause of the problem by recognizing it's systemic.

As to your last paragraph, one thing that I wish people would remember is that capitalism is a system of a VERY few winners and a LARGE percentage of "losers" and no amount of education, social gains or anything else will change this systemic dynamic. A magic wand that equalized everything, but luck, would only mix up that small percentage of winners.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

35. Agree!

There's been conjectures that Europeans "won" more socialized programs after WW2 too because they'd just went through a bloody war and then the struggles of trying to mend destroyed infrastructure.

Socialists in the USA had been gaining ground until the post-WW2 economic boom. And you're right that many Americans started to forget past economic hardships (such as the Great Depression) as time passed.

I'm no full-blown "Communist" or anything because I don't believe any government can manage an entire economy. On the other hand, I agree that unfettered capitalism creates severe inequality. Just look at what happened to Chile in the past when some "Libertarian scholars" from the USA were allowed to restructure their economy.

I'm somewhere in the middle. If we're going to "play Monopoly" on a broad scale, we can't allow the rules to be the same as the board game! Losers in that game go bankrupt and are "eliminated," but the collective wealth would actually improve if nobody was knocked out of that game!

Since there's so many people with power who are very self-centered, I think it's best to argue how social safety nets actually benefit them in the long run! Trying to appeal to them on moral grounds doesn't seem effective. They often retreat into an "I earned everything that I have" argument when confronted that way.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Well, I am a "full-blown 'Communist', albeit of the Trotskyist tendency...........

Which most consider closest to a classic Marxist view. And when think of workers' control of the economy, I'm in favor of it. But I also remember that even Marx in the Manifesto only called for worker control over the "commanding heights of the economy". Now that phrase might be subject to interpretation, but I look at it as things that are based on human needs. Things like food, clothing, shelter, health-care, most of the transportation sector as it relates to those more basic needs, and the mechanics of reinvestment in the wider economy. The latest Pokémon geegaw, might not be included in that list, at least to start.

And I believe that the workers should control these industries with strategic input from the general public. What this would involve is a more basic and wide-spread local democracy than we have now.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

37. If you have any books that you recommend, I'll try to read them someday.

For example, I think Noam Chomsky is a "genius" at recalling historical events and pointing out the many faults of our system, but his anarcho-syndicalism strikes me "naive" when it comes to solutions.

Just like Libertarian experiments have failed horribly, I'd like to see examples of more socialist systems that have been successful. It seems to me that "mixed systems" have worked out better historically, but I might be overlooking something.

My main concern is concentrated power. It amazes me how many Americans are worried about our government being too powerful, but little concern is shown toward corporate power nowadays... despite those corporations not being very open or accountable to anyone (except through government oversight). Conservative propaganda has influenced far too many people.

[socialist_n_TN]

40. Lots of books, lots of pamphlets, lots of articles.........

Start with the "Communist Manifesto", then "The Death Agony of Capitalism and the Tasks of the Fourth International" (also called the Transitional Program). Those are fairly short pamphlets. There's also Lenin's "State and Revolution" and "What Is To Be Done", also pamphlets.

I enjoyed Trotsky's rather early autobiography called "My Life". He wrote a really good 3 volume set called "The History of the Russian Revolution" and Isaac Deutscher wrote a three volume biography of Trotsky that most people refer to as the "Prophet" series. The titles are "The Prophet Armed", "The Prophet Unarmed", and "The Prophet Exiled" I recommend Trotsky not only because I'm a Trotskyist, but also because he's a REALLY good writer. His reference books read like novels, so they will keep your interest.

Since fascism is in the news because of Trump and this election, he wrote a lot of articles on fascism and what it is and how to recognize it. He wrote a really interesting piece in exile about what would happen and how the USA could go communist. For an on-line resource, you can go to Marxist.org and we have a Socialist Progressives group page here on DU.

That should get you started.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

41. Thanks! I read the Communist Manifesto in college (and still have a copy), but...

... I'll check out the other recommendations too eventually.

[socialist_n_TN]

42. Happy reading and happy learning! ...nm...

[VulgarPoet]

18. I lost my faith in America a LONG ass time ago.

I think I was twelve. Bush's reelection. My stepdad enlisting because he quote-unquote "wanted to kill himself some sand-niggers". My mom telling me that I couldn't trust a cop because I don't pass for full white without a hat on, and might not even then. The cognitive dissonance of knowing that Afghanistan attacked us-- so why are we in Iraq?

Rage Against the Machine and System of a Down taught me more about this country than my history classes ever did, and I choke on the phrase "America is great" every time I so much as think it because I can't even SPEAK such a damnable lie. We aren't great. We've been getting better, but we're a goddamn far sight from great.

[MineralMan]

20. Wait for it. Tuesday.

No need to be so concerned. Truly.

[Cosmocat]

23. Here is the stark reality

we are fighting desperately just to have a SLOWER decline.

That was what electing BHO was.

Great moment, a great man.

Set up to do great things. But, out of crazed partisanship republican not only uniformly opposed him every step of the way, not only actively worked to hinder the recovery and advance of the country, but turned the recovery into such a hate filled shit show that despite our being significantly better off than we were 8 years ago it "feels" worse.

But, that is what Rs do.

Carter was doing what was necessary to turn us around at that time, but America could only feel good if we had Ronald Reagen as POTUS.

Clinton had the country absolutely humming for the most part, but he got a blow job so by the end of the 90s this country made a buffoon POTUS just to shut them the fuck up.

GWB ran the country into the ground so bad that was the only time this country held them responsible on election day in 08 and 10, but republicans threw a major fucking hissy fit and the country decided to give the biggest mid term win in modern history in 12.

Now, their hatred is so toxic they nominate Trump and the facist POS has this country absolutely at THE LINE.

We fight tooth and nail to get BHO and Hillary elected, but that means it will just be a slower degradation.

I know people are not capable of hearing this now, but if we get the senate and do the right thing with the filibuster we are going to see shit we never thought we would see in this country.

[smirkymonkey]

38. Unfortunately, I think you're right.

I has felt to me like rolling a boulder uphill that keeps rolling back on you.

We make these little gains here and there, but we are fighting against the forces of weight and gravity - the willful ignorance and hateful bigotry of the American people and the uncontrollable greed and lust for power of the right wing, who will do everything they can to destroy the democratic party and this country.

I wish I could be more optimistic but I'm not.

[bemildred]

24. Forty years ago. When we got our first appointed President. nt

[Dem2]

25. In the present tense? YES

I hope it is restored next Tuesday evening, however.

[alarimer]

26. Yes. Utterly.

I listened to the last two episodes of This American Life and have pretty much decided this country isn't worth bothering about anymore. Half of Americans are racists and/or idiots.

Election of Hillary Clinton won't change much. Neither did Obama, largely because of deeply entrenched bigotry that is NEVER going away. What is likely to happen is a slower decline, but sooner or later, we will be dead in the water. What we need is to be more like Europe, with truly universal health care (which is either a true single payer system like Canada's or by strictly regulating insurance companies), higher tax rates to pay for decent infrastructure and lower cost of education, etc. But of course, with current gerrymandering, the makeup of the House will NEVER change. So we can say nuts to all of that.

What we will get (as we always get) is government of, by and for corporations. And more wars at the behest of those corporations and the warmongers in the Democratic Party.

There is hope, though, and that is young people. Who are much less racist than old people, generally. And maybe 30-40 years from now things will finally get better after all the old racists die off.

[Va Lefty]

28. Yes and just when you think it can't get any worse it does

George Carlin said in 2007 that "this Country is finished."

6:51 for qoute

[Adrahil]

29. No. No worthy effort is ever easy. NT

[BobbyDrake]

31. Demoralizing nonsense like this should be self-deleted.

Such antics are as obvious as they are pathetic.

[nolabear]

34. Faith doesn't mean certainty about them. It's certainty about us.

America has never been the perfect thing we'd like to tell ourselves. It's always been fraught. People have always fought like enraged family members, bound together and often hating one another. I have faith that we can hold on and keep inching forward as "America" changes, as the world changes. We who try...that's America to me, and I have faith we'll strive come what may.

[nini]

39. It started to fall apart under Reagan with the religious right

We are at the old fork in the road right now and this election is crucial to which path we're going to go down.

Let me add - this is not the first time in the country's history things have been really bad. But, the influence fake news stations and social media have on people makes it much more difficult to bring things back to normal - that alone is what frustrated me.


I have lost enough faith where I am planning on retiring in Portugal because I simply do not like what we have become. So sad really.

[kstewart33]

43. Please, no more downer threads.

We all know that, believe me, we do. But now, the vast majority of we DUers are feeling nervous, jittery, apprehensive, call it whatever.

So respectfully, the last thing we need today and through Tuesday afternoon, is armageddon-like posts.

Let's keep wishing and working for Hillary's success.

And believe me, if for some unforeseeable reason, Trump does win, then there will be plenty of time to post about all the terrible things that will assuredly follow under his presidency.

Aside from all of this, a very sincere welcome to DU!