The ambiguity on trade cost us the Upper Midwest.

[Ken Burch]

The states we just barely lost were the states that have suffered the worst from globalization. The nearly half of the primary voters who supported the runner-up BEGGED the party to put an explicit "no TPP" pledge in the platform. We were treated like we were making a big deal about nothing.

The trade plank, as phrased, was meaningless. It allowed Trump to imply that, if elected, our nominee would find some pretext to decide that TPP was acceptable after all. It sent the message to hard-hit people that our party, the party that is SUPPOSED to fight for workers of all races with the same passion with which it justly speaks out against institutional bigotry, cared more about the suites than the streets.

And throughout the fall, as Trump hammered us on TPP, we said...nothing. Nothing at all.

If we don't learn from that, if we continue to pretend that the Trump phenomenon is NOTHING but bigotry, we will never win another election.

We must fight for justice for ALL who are treated unjustly...the victims of greed as much as the victims of hate, and the victims of BOTH most of all.

[imaginary girl]

1. You think enough voters read the platform ...

... for that to make a difference? I doubt it.

[Ken Burch]

8. It's not just the platform, it's that we didn't talk about working people at all.

It didn't sound like our party cared about workers at all.

[imaginary girl]

10. We aren't very good at getting our message out

I think HRC did talk about jobs and the economy, but the message got lost in all the "clutter" of this election. Even in the debates the pettiness crowded out discussions of policy and content. I do agree we need better ways of getting our messages out, even when the Rs are distracting the electorate.

[Cobalt Violet]

39. maybe she should've run on issues rather than Trump said this and said that.

None of her ads ran on issues. She is the reason she lost.

[hueymahl]

58. Yes, and no one believed our messenger NT

[OrwellwasRight]

70. It wasn't just Rs.

It was Obama and Froman and Pritzker and other Cabinet Secretaries criss crossing the country, including the mid-west, touting the TPP and talking about how they were going to move it in the lame duck. How are voters supposed to distinguish between Obama's policies and Clinton's? The President's unrelenting push for the TPP suppressed the Clinton vote in MI, PA, WI, OH.

[bettyellen]

35. She did talk about it, they reported the "crooked stuff" instead.

And some of us here played a part in validating that crap.

[boston bean]

38. Ayup. Lying about what she supported is not helpful.

[geek tragedy]

2. No, that wasn't it. Trump was able to connect with these people in their gut in a way Democrats

have forgotten how to.

Also, our party had been losing these voters steadily. A platform that none of them read wasn't going to change that.

[Ken Burch]

9. It wasn't just the platform. It was a whole attitude.

We didn't sound like we cared about working people at all.

And we could have embraced those voters without diluting our anti-bigotry message at all.

[Lucinda]

28. Nonsense. n/t

[OrwellwasRight]

71. Lucid argument. n/t

[BainsBane]

3. Bullshit

The average voter thinks Obama was born in Kenya. They have no fucking idea what is in the platform. You are using this election to carry on your long-time bullshit, and you do so completely devoid of evidence.


Now, you could argue that free trade deals are a problem, but to pretend it has anything to do with the fucking platform is ridiculous.

[Ken Burch]

5. It wasn't just the platform, it was the stump speech.

I wanted us to win. I wanted Hillary to win. We were never going to win just by saying "Trump is a bigot".

You have no reason to treat me as the enemy. I stand with you on the entire social justice agenda and have for all my life.

All I'm saying is that that agenda, necessary as it is, can't elect us as long as we leave workers out in the cold.

It caused a lot of working people, of all races, to simply abstain.

Why is fighting for ALL of the powerless such a threatening idea to you?

Bigotry isn't the ONLY thing progressives should care about.

[yallerdawg]

42. When Hillary came out against TPP...

and trade agreements that could hurt workers and wages, why wasn't that good enough?

When she pledged her position wouldn't change after the election?

See - the problem wasn't trade.

[OrwellwasRight]

72. She never spoke about it convincingly and with passion.

Watch her talk about trade. It feels awkward and inauthentic. But more importantly, the President's constant and unrelentless campaigning for the TPP undermined her at every turn.

Hillary on trade (last half minute or so especially awkward):

Compare Sen. Sherrod Brown on the TPP (not awkward; very authentic):

Froman on October fucking 28th pushing TPP in Tennessee:
http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2016/10/28/trans-pacific-partnership-boosts-tennessee-exports-us-official-says/92848472/

Penny Pritzker pushing TPP in California on October 19:
https://www.pacificcouncil.org/newsroom/pritzker-rules-based-trade-benefits-us-global-economy

John Kerry in DC pushing TPP in September:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/09/28/kerry_urges_congress_to_pass_tpp_after_the_election.html#!

Obama pushing TPP during Singapore state visit in August (and explaining how to get Congress to pass it during Lame Duck):
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4616622/president-obama-pm-singapore-pitch-tpp

And that's just a sample. When Obama is also campaigning for her -- how can voters really know where his policies stop and hers start?

[yallerdawg]

74. There it is!

Not about trade at all.

Just more "character assassination."

Good job. It worked. And now we have Trump.

[OrwellwasRight]

76. Whatever that means.

Whose character did I assassinate?

[LonePirate]

4. Globalization is not the only factor. Automation and robotics killed plenty of jobs also.

If there was any discussion in the media about automation being responsible for killing jobs in the rust belt, I certainly missed it. Those jobs are never, ever going to return.

[Ken Burch]

6. OK, but we didn't address that, either. We said nothing about jobs and fear of want at all.

We need to be talking about BIG jobs programs to retrain people, to make it easier for workers to create more jobs by forming co-operatives to restart closed business, and I'm open to any other ideas you have.

[LonePirate]

13. Your suggestions are worth pursuing. Maybe Dems at the local level can start the process.

Without assistance from the federal or state government, we're not going to enact any solutions as quickly as we'd prefer. Perhaps many simultaneous efforts on local levels would be the way to start. We're going to need left leaning billionaires to help with some funding, though.

[duffyduff]

82. Some people are reading too much science fiction

Robots are minimal for job loss. This is usually a neolib argument, and it is false.

Trade agreements and fed politicies are the culprits. This has been going on since Reagan, who the aggrieved white dudes supported or their fathers or grandfathers did. They keep shooting themselves in the ass. I have no sympathy for these dudes anymore.

[book_worm]

7. White rural voters won it in the upper MW on race not what was in the platform

which I highly doubt they read. The other reason for winning (at least here in WI) is voter suppression which cost 42,000 votes in Milwaukee--more than enough for HRC to have won.

[imaginary girl]

11. Agreed

Voter suppression is a huge issue! Where do we go from here with it? We are always cleaning up the messes afterward instead of getting ahead of the problem.

[NurseJackie]

12. Thank you. It's FOOLISH to think that an election was lost because ...

... platform wording. It's utter bullshit, and just an excuse for crybabies to trot out their pathetic attempts at nyah-nyah and toldjaso.

GMAFB!

[hueymahl]

59. I agree completely - it was the messenger, not the platform wording that lost it for us.

The platform could have been the best in the world, but if voters don't believe or like the messenger, the words mean nothing.

[NurseJackie]

61. Oh brother!

[hueymahl]

64. Glad you find it funny!

You can disrespect my points all you want. The problem is, you can't refute them. She was a terrible candidate.

[NurseJackie]

68. Nope. She was a brilliant candidate.

You can disrespect my points all you want.

"Disrespect"??? Are you fucking kidding me?



You guys!

[TexasTowelie]

14. No,

and nothing that you have to say will convince me otherwise.

[msanthrope]

15. What a load of shit. Racism cost us. nt

[Ken Burch]

16. It's not as simple as racism.

And if we assume it is, we doom ourselves to never winning again.

[msanthrope]

17. Your concern is noted. Seriously. "Ourselves." nt

[MelissaB]

19. Yep, "ourselves".

We are Democrats who want to win.

[Ken Burch]

20. I'm as much a Dem as you are. I have as much right to identify as part of the party as you do.

And I campaigned for Hillary all fall, so I've proven my loyalty.

[Scruffy1]

21. I'm with you on this one.

I was a Bernie supporter (precinct captain). Mine cam in at 84% of over 500. Yet I called, and pounded doors for Hillary. We must have an economic program that gives a person a reason to vote. I have quite a few AA and LBGT friends. They all need jobs that pay a living wage like everyone else. Identity politics only gets you so far.

[msanthrope]

23. Awesome. Tell me your campaign assignment. nt

[MelissaB]

24. Oh, jeez!

[Ken Burch]

25. I canvassed many parts of Olympia for the Thurston County Dems.

Worked for much the last three weeks phonebanking in the evening. Manned the front desk many times.

I also spent hours and hours on Facebook begging people at left websites to vote Hillary on antifascist grounds(receiving abuse you cannot imagine in response).

I've done all I need to prove my loyalty.

[BlueProgressive]

65. "Interrogation" is down the hall at the last door on the right.

The FAR right.

[SammyWinstonJack]

77. ...

[MelissaB]

26. I suspected this would happen to Bernie primary supporters when DU reopened.

The loss can't be Hillary's fault.

[Grey Lemercier]

30. as a Clinton supporter from the start, there are many reasons, so many confluences as to why we lost

and I absolutely can say, for me, that Bernie Sanders WAS NOT ONE whatsoever. He is utterly blameless here.

[Ken Burch]

32. Thank you. It is DU'ers with YOUR open attitude that will make the difference

between recovery and future defeat.

[Grey Lemercier]

29. can we all please stop the inane "concern" meme on every angle

I grew SO tired of the constant snarky back and forth bullshit that only succeeded in closing down most legitimate debate and enforced an echo chamber ecosphere.

[bettyellen]

34. With four OPs this one poster is creating an echo chamber...

It's just one that you like.

[0rganism]

63. sorry, but concern is now more than warranted

telling someone that their "concern is noted" has become a compliment in my opinion
seriously

[TimeChaser]

22. They can both have cost us.

When the coal industry jobs first started drying up due to lack of demand and modernization, it was all too easy to direct people's anger towards non-white miners who were seen as stealing those jobs.

Racist demagogues like Trump prey on both economic depression and racial anxiety.

[duffyduff]

81. Nope. It was sexism in part but primarily it was the media

I wish people would get it around here who and what was ultimately culpable. It was the media and one man in particular for bottom line reasons. Trump was not a serious candidate, and you all seem to believe he was, but only became viable thanks to Zucker's non-stop promotion.

Millions of morons, conditioned by hate radio and Fox, fell sucker for this joke of a candidate who resorted to lies, empty promises, and demagoguery because he had no policy proposals.

These aggrieved white dudes who the Sanders/Moore types shed tears over and whose asses they think we should kiss, keep voting the wrong way time after time after time, decade after decade. They are too late to the party about trade, which is just laughable that they would care at all.

They are beyond help. They are so stupid they don't even realize how privileged they are. Fuck 'em.

[Va Lefty]

18. We will never know

but I think we win as coalition and lose as a coalition.

[mcar]

27. She won the popular vote

In most parts of the world, that is just the vote.

This focus on a few thousand WWC voters in a few states who voted for "change" is not wise, IMO.
I'm a white woman, butI find this unrelenting focus on white blue collar voters unsettling.

We should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

HRC had policies to help working people. Ugh's racist rantings and the media's obsession with her "scandals!!!???111" was the difference. Polls are showing that people in PA and other non-early voting states changed their minds in the last 11 days. This was Comey's election.

[Cobalt Violet]

43. maybe running a candidate under FBI investigate wasn't a good idea.

maybe having the fbi head be a republican wasn't good idea. What do we have to show for our bi-partisanism.


polls are showing that enough people who who voted for Obama 1x or 2x stayed home.

[OrwellwasRight]

73. 1

[SammyWinstonJack]

78. Not a good idea...at all.

[hueymahl]

60. Yes, and in a parallel universe, pigs fly

She lost the popular vote where it mattered - most of the swing states.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

31. Truth is there are a variety of factors

Sure Trump's jingoistic "The Chinese and the Mexicans are stealing your jobs" was one. But in addition:

How much voter suppression was there? How did voter ID laws and fewer polling places suppress the turn out?

How did the timing of Comey's e-mail announcement affect things? Or Wiki-leaks for that matter?

How poorly was the electronic media's coverage? The head of CNN did a post election Mea Culpa of their coverage.

These are all factors and worthy of discussion.

[bettyellen]

33. Another shoulda "follow Bernie's campaign" OP? Isn't this spamming us now?

[Hekate]

36. Hillary Clinton WON by a million votes and counting. The Electoral College has got to go.

[Ken Burch]

53. We all agree with you about the Electoral College. Nobody here defends that institution.

That doesn't mean the strategy we used worked and should be repeated. It didn't work in the Upper Midwest, and we will never win those states again if we keep saying "it was racism and sexism and NOTHING ELSE".

[Demsrule86]

37. Yes in the Mid-West, trade cost us the election. nt

[duffyduff]

41. Believe that fantasy. The jobs aren't coming back. n/t

[Demsrule86]

44. And this is why Democrats lost and will continue to lose.

Free trade and the idea that we will keep the better jobs and don't need the ones currently being done in places like Mexico, China, Korea etc is completely wrong. Already, the information jobs are being shipped overseas. There is always someone willing to work for less...what we have created is a giant rush to the bottom where wages fall below those needed to sustain us. All other countries protect their manufacturing as many understand what it is to lose this sort of industry like Germany and Japan for example. The UK followed the same path we are on, and gave away all their manufacturing and are now paying the price( think Brexit) so will we.

[Ken Burch]

49. Thank you. n/t.

[pampango]

79. How do you think Germany "protects its manufacturing jobs"? It is in the WTO

just like the US and has to follow the same trade rules that we do.

It imports 3 times as much as the US as a % of the economy (doesn't sound like much 'protection'), pays its manufacturing workers much more but has a big trade surplus and strong unions.

Manufacturing employment is declining all over the world, just like agricultural employment did a century ago. We can long for the 'good ol' days' all we want - like they must have done a century ago - or we deal with reality.

[Demsrule86]

84. Are you serious?

Hubs was in autos for thirty years...I know how they protect their manufacturing. Listen, sending manufacturing to other countries is stupid ...it enriches a few while bankrupting the majority...it cost us the election this year. People still drive cars,use phones...etc...we can and should make those products here...and those who do no open their markets to us...and most don't...should have to pay tariffs.

https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/manufacturing-processing/how-does-germany-do-it

[pampango]

85. Great article. Germany does not 'protect their industries' with tariffs of other import restrictions

Instead they help them compete in export markets.

How is Germany doing this? How is a highly regulated, high-wage country with a strong currency increasing its share of the global market in the face of low-cost Asian competition?

These SMEs generally avoid mass markets, but they dominate niche businesses. A 2007 study by the management consultant Bernd Venohr found that more than 1,130 German SMEs held either the number one or two position in the world market for their products, or the number one position in the European market. They are rarely the cheapest producers, yet the superior quality and performance of their products enables them to command premium prices and still boost exports. In the United States, such small and medium firms were hurt most by Chinese competition and the recession.

An important factor in German SME manufacturing success is the Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft (Fraunhofer Society), an independent nongovernmental organization that provides high-quality, short-term, affordable applied research that small and medium-size firms could not otherwise afford. Fraunhofer enables smaller manufacturers to continually upgrade their processes and products, and keep ahead of the competition.

While Fraunhofer's approach does not seem to encourage radical, paradigm-shattering change, it nonetheless demonstrates that a high-cost, high-wage country can compete effectively in global markets through the systematic and continuous application of knowledge.

Thanks for the article. I had not seen it.

It clearly shows that Germany survives in a "highly regulated, high-wage" by exporting rather than by protecting its industries from imports. Its exporters are "rarely the cheapest producers, yet the superior quality and performance of their products enables them to command premium prices and still boost exports".

US manufacturing wages are less than Germany's so we should be able to compete with them if we focused on foreign markets like they do.

an independent nongovernmental organization that provides high-quality, short-term, affordable applied research that small and medium-size firms could not otherwise afford. Fraunhofer enables smaller manufacturers to continually upgrade their processes and products, and keep ahead of the competition.

Again I see no reason why we cannot support small to medium sized American manufacturers in the same way that Germany does.

Again thanks for the article. It answered a lot of questions I had about Germany's economic success.

[OrwellwasRight]

75. Keep repeating the meaningless meme that

"Jobs aren't coming back." Who ever said they were? That's a meme to avoid discussing the real issues in the TPP: ISDS, excessive monopoly projections for brand name pharmaceuticals, pathetically weak rules of origin, no currency rules, and on and on and on.

Opposition to the TPP has nothing to do with closing borders or cutting off trade. It's about not putting corporations in charge of our global economic policy.

[duffyduff]

40. These white dudes are THIRTY YEARS TOO LATE TO THE PARTY

The time to have voiced outrage was thirty years ago, when Ronald Reagan was in office pushing through ruinous outsourcing policies, (and with Bush I) trade deals, the gutting of pensions, and the destruction of unions (PATCO). I used to have sympathy for these white dudes, but I don't anymore.

Why? Because they or their parents or their grandparents voted for Ronald Reagan thus voting for their own destruction of their living standards. They had THIRTY YEARS to realize what happened, yet they still bitch and moan about the minorities and women who are taking "their" jobs away from them. They STILL vote against their economic interests and blame minorities and women for their plight.

I just sit back and laugh at all of this "concern" these white dudes have about their economic future. They were stupid enough to fall for a media-promoted demagogue.

You can't fix stupid, and these guys ARE stupid. They are so entitled, they have NO idea as to how entitled they are simply because they have dicks and white skin. They are totally incapable of being reasoned with.

[Ken Burch]

48. A lot of them did, actually.

Two-thirds of the people surveyed in the Nineties were anti-NAFTA, by the time it was passed.

And yes, Bush the first negotiated the deal, but there was no good reason for Bill not to withdraw it. He could have killed NADTA and chose not to. That's what a lot of people remember.

[pnwmom]

83. Yet a good chunk of the Trump voters are good old boys who like Bill Clinton more than Hillary.

The sexism is so blatant. She gets more blame for Bill's policies than he does.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/09/12/daily-202-some-trump-supporters-loathe-hillary-but-love-bill/57d5f894cd249a6fa9f8208e/

PITTSBURGH—One-fifth of Donald Trump’s supporters view Bill Clinton favorably, according to our polling. Many of these white, working-class voters live in the Rust Belt. They helped Bill carry Pennsylvania twice, and their support for the GOP nominee in 2016 is partly why this state has become a battleground.

“I really liked Bill Clinton. He triangulated. It worked,” said Trump supporter Jerry Bernard, 61. “He got welfare reform done. It seems like we’ve gone backwards as a country since that time.”

[Yavin4]

86. Your post explains why Europe has the social programs it has and we do not

They have their fair share of racist assholes too as well as their own nationalist movement, BUT whomever gets elected does not fuck with their healthcare, education, and pensions.

[randome]

45. Do you seriously think Trump was LESS ambiguous than Clinton?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[dsc]

46. then what happened in the Senate elections

In PA, OH, and WI pro trade republicans ran against anti trade Democrats and won in Ohio in a blowout, and handedly in Wi and decently in PA.

[Ken Burch]

47. Some felt, I'm guessing, that voting for the GOP Senate candidate would help Trump get stuff done.

n/t.

[dsc]

67. they all did better than he did in their states

[LeftInTX]

50. Trump also ran on infrastructure improvement

Source of jobs
Something Obama tried but couldn't pass congress.

I don't remember Hillary mentioning this.

[Ken Burch]

52. Another good point.

We should have used GOP intransigence to motivate voters against them. For some reason, our leaders refused to ever do that.

[pkdu]

51. Rob Portman begs to differ. nt

[B Calm]

54. You get it, K&R!

[gollygee]

55. I bet the TPP gets passed very quickly once the GOP has the house, senate, and presidency

The irony is that we are going to have a very establishment Pence/Ryan presidency. They'll pass free trade agreements like nobody's business. There will be nothing anti-establishment about this presidency.

I think that racism was the first issue that cost us the election. Don't underestimate the racism of people in the upper midwest. It's a really big issue here. People loved the racist barbs Trump threw around. That was the biggest thing I heard people Trump supporters respond to. They ate it up.

But yeah trade was up there too.

[Ken Burch]

56. I realize that Trump isn't sincere about opposing TPP.

If we HAD been sincere and loud about committing to killing it(we should have been running ads on that theme over and over in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin)we'd have won.

Racism is a real factor...but it's not as simple as that. And if we reduce it to that, we make it impossible for us to ever recover from this.

[gollygee]

57. It isn't only that, but it's a major factor

It isn't "reducing" to point that out.

[Ken Burch]

62. And nobody is saying it ISN'T a major factor, OR that we shouldn't speak out about it.

Last edited Wed Nov 16, 2016, 08:19 PM - Edit history (1)

This goes back to one of the most pernicious things in the campaign...it was never a choice BETWEEN speaking out against racism OR speaking out against economic injustice. We can and must speak out against BOTH.

It never had to be a choice, and there was never anyone arguing that we shouldn't speak out against racism.

[gollygee]

66. Well then we're on the same page

So I'm not sure why you felt the need to correct me when I said they were both major problems.

[Ken Burch]

69. Sorry...it sounded like you were another person saying it was racism and nothing else.

I've spent the last year trying to convince people that we never actually had a dispute going about that.

[ucrdem]

80. Baloney. Sept '16 unemployment rate in MI: 4.6%. WI: 4.1%

and falling. Of course, that did not stop the demagogues from making hay on a false issue.

Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.wi.htm



Michigan unemployment rate. Source: http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LASST260000000000003