Those who post critique threads on the election are TRYING TO HELP. Please trust that.

[Ken Burch]

We already know that we can never win again if we run future campaigns like we ran this one.

We all know we need change and a new strategy.

Those who are offering critiques want to help the party recover.

NONE OF US are saying we should talk less about institutional bigotry than we did this year. If anything we need to talk MORE about it, AND add a critique of corporate power and the way it intersects with institutional bigotry to repress, divide, and immiserate us.

Please listen. Please be willing to hear respectfully phrased dissenting ideas.

Please be open to change...because no one here has anything but positive intent in offering it.

We all worked hard to win. We all felt the pain of November 8th at a visceral level. We all want to make sure that agony is never repeated.

This is the time for a REAL discussion.

[Grey Lemercier]

1. I am open to all viewpoints in terms of digging out of this huge systemic hole the entire party

is in at state governorships, statewide elected offices, state legislatures, The US House, The US Senate, and now POTUS and soon the SCOTUS.

The Democratic Party is at its lowest ebb in terms of total power in those categories cumulatively since THE CIVIL WAR.

[msongs]

2. good to hear, whats your plan to end voter suppression that determined the outcome?

[Ken Burch]

4. I'm for overturning all voter suppression laws. You know that.

But it's not as simple as that and we can't run a "stay the course" strategy in any future elections.

[msongs]

5. yes I do and agree. the prob is how. nt

[Ken Burch]

6. At this point, probably mass civil disobedience. n/t.

[LostOne4Ever]

3. Very true! Nt

[radical noodle]

7. Considering the people I know who voted for Trump

it had little to do with economics. They were people who felt as though they were losing their country because white folks are no longer feeling in charge of things. They all talked about wanting to go back to the 50s, about hating worrying about political correctness, feeling like Christians were being dissed (even though most of them never set foot in church). They are all fairly well off or at least comfortable, but they are living in a white bubble and are afraid of brown people. In addition, some of Trump's uneducated voters don't like that people act like intelligent people. They want us to dumb down and Donald Trump did just that. They care nothing about policy unless it's building up white folks.

Granted, this isn't all of it, but it is much of that rural vote I think. JMHO

[Ken Burch]

8. You're right when it comes to some voters in the rural South and the mountain West.

(Where do you live, btw?) but that's mainly among voters who wouldn't have voted for ANY Dem, no matter what. Voters in the Upper Midwest were more driven by economic uncertainty, lost ground, and fear of MORE lost ground. These are people who voted for Obama in '08 and '12, who would have voted for Paul Simon or Tom Harkin if we had nominated them in the years they ran for president.

We're not ever going to win over hardshell bigots, but we can win over working-class voters who are driven first by the loss of the economic certainties they had between 1933 and the early Eighties. We've never addressed those voters in any of our presidential campaigns and we have nothing to lose by trying to.

We can get them without diluting the anti-bigotry message at all.

[radical noodle]

9. This was rural midwest

Racism had way more to do with it even though some used to vote Democratic. Backlash against our President due to all the lies about him that went around and also about the ACA.

I lived in Indiana all my life, then moved to Florida in 2012. Most of the people I'm talking about are from Indiana. I worked in union construction companies for a lot of years and this refers to some of them too.

I also have Facebook friends from around the country who are expressing the same thoughts. There is a copy/paste thing going around I will post in a minute so you can see it.

[Ken Burch]

11. I'm not talking about the voters you would know. They never voted Dem and never will.

(brief digressive question: were you in one of the "parts of Indiana", as they always called them in fall and spring, that refused to switch to Daylight Savings Time? always wondered about the "parts" thing there).

I'm talking about the former Dems in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio. An economic justice message would reach them, and reach them without diluting our anti-oppression message in the slightest.

[radical noodle]

18. One year we had each county decide what time zone they wanted to be

Talk about a clusterf*ck! Now the two areas that aren't in the same time zone do it because of Chicago and Louisville. The Indiana counties near there try to stay on the same time as those big cities where many of them work.

I lived in Indianapolis much of my younger life and many of them voted Dem. The union people also used to vote Dem but were conservative about gay rights etc. Most of the Democrats I've known were pretty conservative people. They are also easily fooled into believing the lies that have been thrown about in the last 8 years.

You are probably right about an economic message, but calling it economic justice will be a turnoff to many midwest folks. Who knows, the economy may not be the big issue next time.

[Ken Burch]

39. Why is the word "justice" a turn off?

And what would you suggest in its place?

[radical noodle]

42. I don't think it's a turn off personally but

I do think, if you're trying to reach rural white voters again, they'll likely think it's a giveaway to the poor. As Trump pointed out, they do tend to be more poorly educated and need plain simple words... direct and to the point. Economic justice is something that we understand but a lot of people have no clue exactly what that means.

[Ken Burch]

49. What I'm asking is, what words WOULD work with those voters?

n/t.

[radical noodle]

50. The same words we used that they didn't listen to

I don't think it's our policies. We said jobs, we said tax cuts for the middle class not the rich, we said all the things these people wanted in simple terms but they just weren't listening. Trump took all the air out of the room and the media decided to grade him on the curve and give him most of the air time. If he was able to control himself for 20 minutes, they'd say how wonderful he was. His second debate performance was terrible but the tv pundits were giving him the win because he wasn't as bad as the first time... then the polls came out saying the people thought she was better so the media then gave her the credit she was due.

I honestly think we have the right issues, the right plans for the people. Seriously, if we look at the policies, what would we really change? It was all geared toward those folks. The fact that she actually got the most votes should tell us that we're not failing in policy that much.

Look at the way the polls were after the convention. The speeches were uplifting and the policies were clear. The debates would have been better if Trump hadn't dragged down the tone and kept everything away from policy as much as possible, but we still were good after that. The enthusiasm WAS there, I saw it everywhere on the faces of the people who were helping with the campaign. I'm in a little red county in Florida now and there was a man, simply a volunteer, who flew from New York to help get out the vote here. He wasn't asked by the campaign to do it... he did it because he loved Hillary and wanted so badly for her to win. He was a young guy, probably about 30. I found that amazing.

And the excitement on the faces of the women and kids... especially girls... was wonderful to see. There was so much hope in those faces. But then... kids cried when they heard Hillary lost. Some cried themselves to sleep and again the next morning. People are grieving. I've never seen anything like this with a losing candidate before. That doesn't speak to me of a bad campaign.

I think this election and Trump brought out a lot of racist types who perhaps never voted before. Democrats, especially younger ones, have always been lazy voters. They never turn out at mid terms and I think a lot of people thought Hillary had it wrapped up so didn't bother. I'm sure there's some remorse. Of course there is celebrating from the extreme left who worked hard to elect Trump but I think they may eventually regret it as well. Right now they're high on hate.

I'm no expert at all, but I think there's something missing here that is not related to our policies.

[JonLP24]

37. Obama blew out Romney in suburb counties of

Philadelphia, Pittsburg, and Scranton. Won Green Bay in Wisconsin. A lot of areas that flipped to Trump.

Trump in the first debate said "we're getting killed on trade." Clinton did better than Obama in Arizona and Nevada. She lost because of industrialized northeast areas that free trade Democrats have taken for granted. Now we must figure out how to get them back.

[Ken Burch]

40. That's the point I'm making.

We do need to keep calling out bigotry...but that, by itself, isn't enough to elect us.

We need a personally inspirational candidate with the common touch.

[radical noodle]

14. I've had so many people on Facebook tell me

that the following reflects their feelings exactly. Granted they had the loss of jobs to other countries but it sure wasn't their first complaint. It was way down the list. How many of those are based on lies they've been told. President Obama had a jobs bill that Republicans wouldn't even discuss. We didn't hear them complaining then.

How did this happen you ask....
You created "us" when you attacked our freedom of speech.
You created "us" when you attacked our right to bear arms.
You created "us" when you attacked our Christian beliefs.
You created "us" when you constantly referred to us as racists.
You created "us" when you constantly called us xenophobic.
You created "us" when you told us to get on board or get out of the way.
You created "us" when you forced us to buy health care and then financially penalized us for not participating.
You created "us" when you allowed our jobs to continue to leave our country.
You created "us" when you attacked our flag.
You created "us" when you confused women's rights with feminism.
You created "us" when you began to emasculate men.
You created "us" when you decided to make our children soft.
You created "us" when you decided to vote for progressive ideals.
You created "us" when you attacked our way of life.
You created "us" when you decided to let our government get out of control.
"You" created "us" the silent majority.
And we became fed up and we pushed back and spoke up.
And we did it with ballots, not bullets.

I think it's very possible that some who had voted Democratic before have been put off by these things. I think instead of changing the party, we need to keep our same values and try to make them more understood and acceptable.

[Ken Burch]

20. Mind you, a fake story that the Pope had endorsed Trump

got a million and a half shares on Facebook.



I saw huge numbers of people saying they hated most of what Trump said and mainly voted for him on the trade issue. Whoever wrote that thing(it was probably drafted by some right-wing hack before the campaign even started) wasn't ever going to vote for us and I'm not talking about people like that.

(what does "attacked our way of life" even mean, btw?)

[radical noodle]

22. I think it means we wanted them to accept PoC

Emasculating men was the one I tripped over. One woman explained that it meant that men couldn't tell their wives what to do anymore.

[frazzled]

10. Nothing was wrong with the way we ran this campaign

What went wrong was the way the other campaign was run: with populist ranting that played on people's fears and bigotry, creating false bogeymen they could pin their woes on. Railing against the so-called "establishment" (meaning people with expertise and experience), complaining about rigged systems.

We should never run a campaign like that. Even if it is based on liberal rather than conservative ideas.

The Clinton campaign had tens of thousands of volunteers, raised millions of small donation dollars, put forth an amazing convention, ran finely crafted and inspirational ads as well as hard-hitting negative ones, had stellar surrogates, and a tremendous ground game. We apparently live in new times, where tweets and Facebook rumors and false news stories have more impact in today's Wild West.

It would have been historically unusual for a party to remain in power after it had held the presidency for two terms. But this was not an ordinary election: the opposition party candidate was completely out-of-left-field, incompetent and ugly. So it could have been conquerable. Yes, we garnered a significantly larger portion of the popular vote: it was just not distributed in the right places. And, alas, a significant enough number of Democratic voters did not choose to come to the polls this year (while the Republicans managed to match their 2012 numbers). Personally, I blame that on the long and bitter primary. It wasn't, for the most part, the minority vote that didn't show up.

No, we did nothing wrong, except be smart, truthful, dignified, and idealistic rather than angry, fear-mongering, and embittered. I don't regret that for a moment. It was an exceptional campaign. The people and the times failed us.

[Ken Burch]

16. Nobody is arguing that we should replicate the Trump campaign.

What we need to do is to connect with the working-class fear of want that Trump capitalized on and distorted into rage at "the other". To do that, we need to honestly address class-which does not mean and which has never meant diluting our anti-oppression message, but means finding the language that lets us offer a positive, transformative "it doesn't HAVE to be this way" message to the victims of hate, the victims of greed, and the victims of both.

[radical noodle]

21. We had a GOOD economic message

That's the thing. Either they don't trust us any longer or they didn't listen. Remember that economists said our jobs message was better than Trumps. I understand why you think that (it's the assumption many jumped to) but we had the better economic message by far.

[bettyellen]

35. You're suggest we replicate Sanders losing campaign....same as you have all year.

He lost by a large margin. So yeah, Let's do that again, LOL.

[Ken Burch]

38. I'm suggesting we merge the best of BOTH campaigns.

That combination...social justice AND economic justice, causes that are distinct but never in actual conflict...would make us electorally invincible.

I'm not here to trash this year's nominee. I'm here trying to help us win in the future.

[bettyellen]

41. Bullshit- the media ignored the policies we put forth and focused on stupid shit....

And part of that was misinformation put out by Sanders fans. People who suggested Hillary "know her place" like you did. Their egos trumped everything, and for some, still do.

[radical noodle]

43. Yes!

We need to face it that the Republicans are much better at propaganda too.

[Ken Burch]

44. I never said anything close to saying that Hillary should "know her place".

Spent weeks campaigning for her in the fall.

So did Bernie.

We can't run the same campaign in 2020 that we did this year. If we do, we'll be certain to lose again.

[bettyellen]

45. "Knew her place" was in the senate....

[Ken Burch]

46. Not something I ever said or thought.

I'd have liked to have seen her become Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

[Turin_C3PO]

56. That was another poster.

Can't call out but I was pretty surprised when he posted that.

[greatauntoftriplets]

31. Wish I could rec this.

[stevenleser]

12. I suspect they are trying to justify their position, not trying to help.

It would be easier to believe if their attempt to help didn't dovetail so nicely with the way they would like to see things.

[Ken Burch]

13. You do agree though, I hope, that we can't just "stay the course".

Something shifted and we have to change in response to that.

[stevenleser]

15. Nope, that is in my opinion, more trying to justify your position.

Here is my opinion on things: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512609964

[Ken Burch]

17. My position was support for the Democratic ticket.

And I supported it just as wholeheartedly as you did.

It's just that it's not as simple as what Comey did.

[stevenleser]

19. Your position is that we should have nominated another candidate. You support any theory that

will further that idea and that the Democratic party platform wasn't progressive enough in your opinion.

In doing so you ignore the fact that Hillary was 9 points ahead in the polls pre Comey and after Comey her lead in the polls was around 3 points. Comey also came out with another letter a few days before the election that reinforced the idea of an FBI investigation that likely caused a further deterioration. In fact Clinton campaign internal polls showed that.

[NurseJackie]

25. Transparent as saran wrap. Thank you for pointing out the obvious... clearly (and unfortunately)

... it's needed to be a sensible counter to the continued neener neener celebratory told-ya-so posts.

Why look! It's the Schrödinger Candidate ... we'll never hear the end of it.

He's both a winner and a loser at the same time. But we'll never know. (Only we do. He lost to Hillary. Period.)

[Ken Burch]

26. No. My position is that we needed to treat economic justice as an important thing.

That we needed a clear "No TPP" message. That we needed to break with militarism in the Middle East and much of the rest of the world(something Bernie didn't call for, either). I'd have been glad to hear Hillary give that.

I'm not the enemy and my sole concern is about winning in the future.

Hillary as a person or a candidate is a moot point. So is Bernie(he'll be 79 in 2020). It's not about any individual or that individual's characteristics.

What is it about open discussion that you so distrust? Why do you fear change?

[NurseJackie]

23. Oh dear! Seriously? I don't belive it!

This is the time for a REAL discussion.

It's just a chat board. Nothing we say here makes any difference in national politics. Get real!

[Ken Burch]

27. Then why is it so important to you to use personal derision to shut down debate?

We did it exactly your way. We lost.

[NurseJackie]

28. GMAFB! I didn't control the election process. Silly.

[Ken Burch]

29. No...but it was all done exactly the way you wanted it done.

And that's why The Hair Abhorrent is about to take power.

So we need an open discussion at all levels of the party.

"Staying the course" isn't a workable option if you actually want to win.

[Ken Burch]

34. Bernie had no responsibility for the defeat.

Nothing would be different if Bernie had been barred from running and Hillary had been nominated without opposition. Nothing would be different in none of Bernie's positions had been in the platform.

Bernie had to run.

[kcr]

54. Bernie didn't have to attack Hillary directly often falsely and depress turnout

He absolutely does bare some responsibility in this. I fully supported his positions and getting it into the platform. I think he could have done it without incurring this damage. In fact, I think there's a chance he could have won the nomination had he chosen not to take that route. He lost my support because of it.

[duffyduff]

24. The problem is most people have no idea what happened.

It is trash Hillary, trash the Democrats, and so on down the line.

People who do this do NOT get it that the entire blame for Trump is with the media.

This is not opinion but fact. The media literally pimped for this man 24/7, throughout the primaries. They did it for the money and for ratings. By the time the media did or attempted to do their job, it was too late. Trump had his messianic, misogynist, xenophobic following.

Now we are screwed.

Trashing the Democrats when people have no idea what happened, especially during the GOP primaries, is not helpful.

[NurseJackie]

32. And the Sarandons and Nina Turners of the world were of NO HELP at all... in fact ...

... their "LET IT BURN" and "TEACH THE PARTY A LESSON" and "NEVER HILLARY" attitude cause more damage than their pretty little vanity hurt and disappointed feelings were worth.

Pity those who followed their lead couldn't think on their own.

[Paladin]

55. Amen to that.

A big "Thanks for nothing!" to Bernie and his worshipful followers.

[bettyellen]

33. Actually there's another post suggesting we go after the xenophobes so NOPE.

[Ken Burch]

36. Not my position.

We need to go after people who felt too alienated to vote and people who voted Trump on trade.

[Hekate]

47. Sure, as long as you all remember that Hillary WON by a million-plus votes. Discuss abolishing ....

.....the Electoral College. Please.

[Ken Burch]

48. I've always supported abolishing the Electoral College. And I know about the popular vote.

Pretty much anyone who has posted a critique thread is with me on that.

What is the harm of having an open discussion?

And what good does it do to pretend no mistakes were made?

It's not as if Hillary will ever run again.

[DemocraticWing]

51. We have a real mess on our hands.

Trump did better with every racial group, won white women by double digits, and won over some people who voted for Obama in 2008 or 2012. And a bunch of our own people did not vote at all!

We've got to run a campaign that fixes that. I'm of the opinion that taking on the system is probably our ticket out of this: talking about institutional racism, economic inequality, etc. are when we do best. Obama's campaign in 2012 was about inequality (he went and campaigned on the auto bailout across the Midwest) and he did quite well. Obama's campaign in 2008 was about changing the status quo, going after Wall Street, and helping people get back on their feet. He did quite well then too.

Since we can't run Obama in 2020, we've gotta run some kind of campaign that can recapture his winning coalition. Whatever happened this year didn't win so we should learn from whatever mistakes we made.

[Ken Burch]

52. That's good. You should post that as an OP.

n/t.

[kcr]

53. Okay, but when they're wrong they can get called on it.

And there is a lot of wrong.