Wow - the concern trolls were right.

[Beartracks]

Turns out that those DU posters who were so quickly and condescendingly labeled as "Concern Trolls" if they dared express ANY doubts about Hillary winning... were quite right to be concerned.

Unrealistic optimism noted, people.




=====================

[In_The_Wind]

1. Oh my.

[Demsrule86]

34. I believe every word I typed but

I think I was not in the postmortem where this sort of comment belongs.

[In_The_Wind]

37. Perhaps you are right.

This OP went to a jury.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

59. I may have been labeled a concern troll.

I've said before - I got banned by both groups for asking questions. They weren't anything but questions of concern in the lack of discussion of issues that were important. There were hothead and extremists, But I am not an extremist. I wonder about how the message gets buried in the vitriol. Today I hate Susan Sarandon. Twice she did this to the Democrats. She didn't really make the difference, but the energy drain from fights was harmful.

[hueymahl]

181. I got banned in both groups also.

I wore it as a badge of honor for a while. But now I am just sad given the outcome and what could have been.

I am glad the debate is back on. The echo chamber won out for a while, just as it did at the DNC level. There needs to be a Democratic "civil war" to reset the path that led us to losing to the orange one.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

199. I considered it an honor and a bad sign for the election

Strangely, Jill Stein is trying to raise $ for recounts. I am dizzy and sick at heart.

[Omaha Steve]

103. I miss results

They could post the vote results.

[In_The_Wind]

107. Those days are gone forever.

[rusty quoin]

2. Well, I'm still in shock and don't know what to yet believe.

I felt this way 2 times before: 9/11/01, and after the Kerry loss in 2004.

[Beartracks]

3. I think that's what I'm feeling, too: shock.

Spouse and I were saying this is the first time we've felt *scared* about a Republican President.

============================

[Hassin Bin Sober]

8. I felt worse 2004.

Maybe it was because my non-political boyfriend cried when us gays where blamed for the loss.

My sister in law was driving our car with a rainbow flag on the back and some douche pulled up next to her waiving a "bush wins" headline newspaper. She cried too.

Maybe I'm numb anymore.

A couple days before this election I started getting that same sinking feeling I had in 2004, a couple days out from election, when I realized gay marriage bills were on several state ballots around the country.

*gulp*

This time it was Nate Silver's explanation of how Hillary didn't have it in the bag. I mentioned my nervousness and I received a "fuck Nate Silver" reply. "Sam Wang is the man!"

When I started looking past the "Clinton 70% chance of winning" headlines and saw the slim margins that were involved in all Ohio, Florida, Michigan etc. I started getting that same sinking feeling.

Silver said Trump had a 1 in 4 chance. The same Chance he gave the Cubs of winning the World Series.

Half the country absolutely hates the Clinton's. I supported her in 2008 over Obama. But I know some repubs that would crawl over broken glass on hand and knee to vote against her. A couple points in key states was way too close.

[Kali]

80. I still believed she would win, but I am forever traumatized by the 2004 election.

drumpf is infinitely worse than dumbya, but that is when I learned what the country was really capable of voting for. that was always in the back of my mind during this election. still it was a shock that so many women could look past his disgusting history and actually vote for him.

[Siwsan]

77. Same here

It feels like breaking waves of electoral PTSD.

[Beartracks]

4. So many Democrats are scared now AFTER the election.

And yet quite a few were scared BEFORE, and it was justifiable. But if they gave voice to those fears here, they were shut out and told to get with the program.

Were some of them actually trolls? I suppose. But not all of them.

==================

[Else You Are Mad]

26. I know I wasn't a troll when I voiced concern.

I remember when I first became fearful that Trump had a good possibility of winning: when, in New Jersey, I saw maybe one or two Hillary signs amongst a sea of Trump signs. When I said this here and elsewhere, I was called a concern troll for voicing my fear -- which, sadly, turned out to be correct.

[revbones]

54. Nothing but blind boisterous optimism was allowed

otherwise you'd be beaten down pretty quick and labeled a concern troll or worse.

[Else You Are Mad]

58. Exactly.

And that is the mentality that cost her the election. Hillary mostly only campaigned among the voters that were already going to vote for her. She ignored the Obama voters that weren't sure of her policies when she should have focused her campaign on them instead.

[TrekLuver]

64. I feel that the barring of dissention is not good for a "Democratic" site...

but hey I'll follow the rules or else you get banned. But I would like to participate in a site where dissention is allowed. I too had concerns that I didn't voice because of this. I saw Hillary hate everywhere I went and I live in NYC. There was no reasoning with the Hillary hate...they may not even know exactly why they hated her...but they "just did".

[revbones]

70. Sounds like those people squashing disent

are wanting to paint a favorable narrative about this defeat rather than entertain what actually happened - so it sounds like you're still going to have the same problem.

[alarimer]

154. I agree with you.

I found some others, but quickly realized they were cesspools of toxicity and so not a reasonable alternative either.

I don't like having to march in lockstep (sorry, unfortunate turn-of-phrase) with anyone.

[MelissaB]

74. I don't think we're done with that yet.

In many people's eyes Hillary lost because she was a woman. Period. It had nothing to do with the fact that she's a corporate Dem with ties to Wall Street and gave those $250k speeches knowing damn well she was going to run for president. Nafta, TPP, shitty decisions handling her emails and server, the list goes on.

[revbones]

78. Exactly.

And I agree, there'll be more blaming everyone else than letting Hillary take any. It's already evident here and will just serve to drive more people away.

[MelissaB]

89. Yup.

[reflection]

92. Looks that way, unfortunately. n/t

[Arazi]

145. 1 . I just checked in for the first time today

Knew exactly how this was going to play out here

[LenaBaby61]

90. I don't think we're done with that yet.

Yes because we know that the guy who won the presidency is a nice, decent, kind, friendly fellow who had NO ties to Washington at all, and who was pure as the driven snow where it concerned his taxes dealings with women especially, and was always above board with his business dealings with other governments and nations, and we know he'd never give the shaft to the folks who did work for him, ever. I mean, Hillary Clinton was running vs a guy in tRump who we KNOW had no issues with his personal character at ALL. Nope, there was absolutely no sexism, racism or surrounding tRump or who he was, and we also know that his voters were smarter than Einstein because in tRump they voted for someone who we know will bring jobs back to the USA even though it may take a tad longer time to do so because he may be a bit busy buying Chinese steel from over in China. Yep, we know he will be stellar when it comes to business and trade deals and the Keystone pipeline.

Hillary was running against an Angel.

No wonder she lost

[exboyfil]

157. Yes. How fing hard is it to use two Blackberries

In fact it would be preferred so that you don't mix your personal business with your government business. There should have been a wall figuratively 20 feet high between her foundation and her state department work.

[democrattotheend]

140. Exactly

Those of us who were afraid that people were embarrassed to admit they were voting for Trump were shouted down and told we were creating negative energy and accused of not wanting her to win. I bet we all wish we had done just a little bit more - I know I sure do - and maybe we would have if we had been a little more nervous like we should have been.

[JTFrog]

143. You are agreeing with a banned troll.

That dude voted for Stein and was only here to sow division. His entire purpose was to create negativity and division, just like the majority of the concern trolls.

[democrattotheend]

144. Sorry, I didn't realize that

I thought the term "concern troll" was being used sarcastically. Many of us were labeled concern trolls who weren't.

[vi5]

178. I have been here since shortly after the 2000 election....

I can assure that I'm not a "troll" but I was highly concerned and every concern I had came true. And people didn't even seem to care that I was not exactly a Bernie booster. I'm glad he ran and he served a very important function. I think our loss would have been even larger if Hillary just walked up and took the nomination unchallenged at any step in the process. I didn't think Bernie necessarily had a better chance in the general election, but at this point......I'm not so sure about that.

What kills me more than anything is that unlike after Dean's loss in 2004 when he actually worked to build up the party as a whole for the benefit of the entire country, the DNC under Kaine and DWS served only to focus on getting Hillary the nomination and then winning the general election (which they couldn't even manage to do with that one single job). I don't even think there was any shenanigans or malfeasance or illegality in getting her the primary win, except in the fact that they clearly didn't work at anything else BUT doing that. For all the talk about how Hillary was going to help and energize down ticket races......well, how'd that work out for us as well?

I had hoped once DU came back up I'd see a little more introspection but clearly that's not the case since every other thread on the front page seems to be screaming about election fraud, the exact thing we mocked trump endlessly for suggesting.

[DemocraticWing]

5. I'll be honest, I expressed a lot of confidence in my personal life that Clinton would win.

I know some people who were terrified and I told them there was no reason to be. Now I look like a fool and feel really bad. I'll never be that confident again, ever.

[Fast Walker 52]

32. yep, same here

OTOH, I don't think we can rule out election theft on a large scale and massive perfidy.

[0rganism]

95. yep, same here

personally and on this message board, i thought we had this election covered. now i see, not so much. i completely misunderstood America, and now my psyche is paying a price for it.

[andym]

6. I think anyone who was not concerned after Comey's Friday note to Congress

lacks good political judgement. Take away that and I think Hillary wins a close election (state by state in the rust belt and Florida) in the electoral college. But of course, there was little to be done really at that point, but try to get out reliable voters on election day.

My thoughts at the time http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1609715
But it looks like the subsequent Sunday "all clear" was too late. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512593998

[SleeplessinSoCal]

65. I agree. she may have won. but she was out of touch. as were people around her. Robby Mook?

Tim Kaine for that matter. He barely registered with me. He was not an inspired choice. She needed a fighter.

Mainly she needed a message beyond "the children". Our society doesn't care about children. We are all children. And children are cutting themselves. Where was concern for what really ails us. I fear she was fearful of alienating more voters and lost the core of her argument.

There was no closing argument. That could have overridden Comey.

[JI7]

7. there is a difference between concern and dragging things down. none of it changes that many of them

were not doing anything to be helpful but just wanting to spread doom.

[BainsBane]

9. You get to say "I told you so"

And that's really what's important. So what if we have a fascist in the White House?

Anyone who was genuinely concerned should have worked on voter turn out. Of course they didn't. That's what I did.

[BainsBane]

11. What 100 million dollars?

Last edited Wed Nov 16, 2016, 04:47 AM - Edit history (1)

I think you're confusing Hillary with the candidate who funneled his ads through Old Towne media and collected tens of millions in ad placement fees.

I think what You mean we should have voted how you told us to, because my vote and the rest of the Democrats are inferior to yours.
As for the rest of your bullshit, Eichenwald dispelled it. http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044

Yeah, it sucks Bernie faced a challenger and we didn't just hand him the nomination as was his birthright. Better yet, repeal the 19th amendment like the Trump supporters want so you can have the America you've always dreamed of.

Get out the vote campaigns aren't "gold plated." It's fucking grassroots organization. That you treat citizen volunteer participation in politics with such contempt says everything about your worldview. Better a candidate who doesn't lower himself to work on GOTV for his own campaign or even register voters. Better someone who raises $200 million and spends the great majority of it on corporate media. Now that's democracy. No lowly volunteer organizing.

If you didn't want your friends to lose their medical coverage, maybe you shouldn't have worked so hard to smear the Democratic nominee? Maybe you should have actually volunteered to turn out voters? Of course popular participation is "gold plated." While treating politicians as infallible monarchs isn't. What utter cant. But hey, you now have a president who will strip away the rights of the undesirables who refused to follow the command of their superiors and dared to vote for Hillary. What are you complaining about anyway? You got exactly what you and the rest of the piners have been rooting for.

[Esse Quam Videri]

27. Well said.

Bravo.

[cwydro]

28. Nice.

You do know she won the popular vote, don't you?

[vdogg]

39. Doesn't matter to them.

They're still crying that Bernie lost the primary, endlessly going over what ifs knowing damn well Bernie wasn't attacked like Hillary, even though he would have been had he won the nomination. They're only concern now is "I told you so's", which will only further fracture the party and ensure we lose the midterms as well. Good luck with that. But hey, at least they get to feel good about that protest vote...

[cwydro]

45. Sadly, you're right.

Fighting amongst our selves is pointless.

[B Calm]

121. You do know she got over 4 million lesser votes than Obama did in 2008? Why?

[Raster]

127. You shouldn't be concerned about that...

...obviously, they just voted wrong.

[Fla Dem]

139. Let's just take a look at the numbers, shall we....

Last edited Thu Dec 22, 2016, 02:46 PM - Edit history (2)

Hillary Clinton received the 3rd largest popular vote in US History and they are still counting.

2016...Hillary Clinton........65,844,610.....Donald Trump........62,979,636
2012...Barack Obama........65,899,660.....Mitt Romney..........60,932,152
2008...Barack Obama........69,456,897.....John McCain..........59,934,814
2004...George W. Bush .....62,040,610.....John Kerry.............59,028,439
2000...Al Gore.................50,999,897.....George W. Bush......50,456,002
1996...Bill Clinton.............45,590,703.....Bob Dole...............37,816,307
1992...Bill Clinton.............44,909,326.....George H.W. Bush...39,103,882
1988...George H.W. Bush...48,886,597.....Michael Dukakis......41,809,476

HRC received 2,864,974 more votes than Trump and only 55,050 fewer votes than Pres Obama in 2012.

http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/president

http://2012election.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004332

Now let us take a look at the impact of the Jill Stein / Gary Johnson vote.
...........................2016...............2012
Gary Johnson......4,360,778.........1,275,923
Dr. Jill Stein........1,356,943............469,015
TOTAL................5,717,721.........1,744,938

Stein and Johnson increase in votes over 2012 = 3,972783

We can assume or not, that a good chunk of the increase in the Stein/Johnson votes were 2012 Barack Obama votes tuned into protest votes against Hillary Clinton. The 4 million vote difference in the Stein/Johnson vote 2012/2016 would not have allowed HRC to best Obama's 2008 total, which was a historical election, but it would have far exceeded his 2012 vote.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?year=2012&f=0&off=0

I'll leave you to form your own opinions on who allowed Donald J Trump to win this election.

[Ace Rothstein]

150. Hillary Clinton allowed Trump to win the election.

She ran a very poor campaign. Look at all the counties in the Rust Belt that flipped from Obama to Trump, she didn't even reach out to those voters. Schumer's prediction that they'd gain 2 moderate Republican votes for every working class vote didn't quite pan out.

[hueymahl]

182. Yep. This cannot be said enough.

Hillary is the reason Hillary lost.

[kenfrequed]

152. There are a number of problems with this argument

As to the first point, the population of the country is always increasing. The largest number is not significant. What would be significant would be the percentage of registered voters or the percentage of people able to vote who do so.

As to the second, the raw number of Stein voters is only relevant in as much as it occurs in those states where Hillary did not already win. So you have to ignore vote for her in solidly blue states.

And then you have to look at each of those states where Stein's vote might make a difference. In those cases, in order to be rational, you need to actually subtract Stein's numbers from 2012 from the votes cast in 2016. In all honesty, these are hard core Greens that no one should have ever counted on to vote Democratic. I wouldn't have even tried to rely on them to support Bernie Sanders. If that number still makes the difference then maybe an argument could possibly be made.

----------

As far as Gary Johnson voters go, they were libertarians to start with and only would have considered voting for a Democratic candidate in terms of issue or policy intersection. In this case the reluctance towards military action and support for legalization of cannabis might have made a difference. Both of these are areas where it is theoretically possible that they might have considered a Democratic candidate who was closer on those issues. Again though, they were too far away on most any other issues to be considered reliable. Bernie might have been able to razor some of them away, but honestly I think Johnson still would have walked away with a percentage point or so.

The thing about third party voters is that they aren't usually ignorant. Fanciful, idealistic, and often foolish, but not ignorant. They decided on what they thought was important and voted on it. Imagining them all to be potential democratic voters is naïve. And thinking that you are somehow going to magically receive all of their votes without catering to them a bit is downright idiotic.

---------------

This castigation of third parties, while entertaining and good for a headline, is ultimately stupid. This is the kind of story that excuses professional pundits for getting it wildly wrong and professional politicos for making stupid mistakes during an election. It is the kind of story that simply exists to prop up the existing strategy and mentality of existing political parties and those apparatus that undergird the existing establishment.

[Bobbie Jo]

21. Well said.

[brer cat]

38. Thank you, BB

Well done and I agree!

[Cary]

23. Good grief.

Smh.

[secondwind]

31. Hillary net worth is 30 million.. where do you get your number from?

[DemonGoddess]

17. This!!!

[zonkers]

67. OP is saying the truth. and it's more than "I told you so". Its let's not this happen again.

[Beartracks]

93. I'm not saying I told you so.

I was really confident in Hillary and her campaign. I expected Trump to get thumped.

But did I shame and insult people for being worried about it, about whether she could overcome the double standards, the media bias, the Republican Lie Machine? No, I didn't.

For all that DUers as a community expressed the idea that America should be scared of a Trump Presidency, many here ironically preferred that such fear should not be shown, acknowledged, or validated right here at DU.

When is fear a motivator, and when is it a DE-motivator? And why do some people presume to know where to draw that line on such a subjective issue?

Maybe it's that a lot of DUers have grown cynical during years of Republican tantrums, obstruction, and lies, and immediately assume the worst about people with low post counts and different hopes and fears. And while perhaps understandable, it's still sad to see.

[Madam45for2923]

172. Yes! This!

[still_one]

177. You are absolutely right bains, and I made that point several times. The last two weeks

of the election I was working solid doing call banking into the swing states from California.

Those who were concerned actually involved themselves in the campaign

[pnwmom]

13. They weren't right to think that Bernie would have done any better.

The exit polls said only 17% of voters identified themselves as liberals, and 54% said that they wanted polices more conservative than Obama's.

And concern trolling once we had a nominee was POINTLESS. People are more likely to work for a candidate they think can win than one they think is doomed.

[Ms. Toad]

16. Expressing legitimate concern is not concern trolling.

Aside from anything else, had expressing concern not been a trigger for immediate pile-ons and shaming, we might have been more realistic - and motivated - without the smug self-confidence that almost certainly led some voters to decide their vote didn't really matter.

I, personally, know at least one voter who despises Trump - but voted for him becuase she wanted to send a message to shake up President Clinton. I have heard second hand of others who made similar decisions.

I also know people who have every reason to vote, but didn't get to the polls because they were sure Clinton would win.

I kept my mouth shut, because I didn't feel like dealing with pile-on or shaming that would have followed had I opened it. (I did frequently alert on people who were concern troll shaming, since I didn't have to deal with any public outcry about that.) But, all along Trump using, with a wink-wink-nod-nod,the worst of the worst of his supporters to churn excitement to drive people to the polls has felt an awful lot like 2004, when my marriage was used to drive people to the polls for Bush. The lowest common denominator often wins behind the voting curtain.

We might be in a different place today, had discussing the possibility that there might be trouble in not been de facto forbidden.

[pnwmom]

110. If your friends were paying attention , I don't know why

they'd have been so sure she would win. The polls at the end were within the margin of error -- we saw them plummet after Comey made his 11th day announcement; and two days before the election Comey once again put his fist down on the scale.

That last announcement didn't help AT ALL; it just reminded all the low-info undecideds that Hillary had been under criminal investigation and that, for all anyone knew, Comey could re-investigate her once the election was over.

But publicly expressing these concerns wouldn't help. That would actually depress vote counts, because people want to back a winner. (The "band-wagon" effect.) The only thing to do was what Hillary's supporters and campaign did: to keep doing everything they could to GOTV.

Of course that was much, much more challenging as a result of the effects of overturning the Voting rights act in 2013.

[Ms. Toad]

115. Anyone who hangs out in this little echo chamber

only heard that Clinton was going to win.

We need to be able to talk honestly about whatever is going on = and that was not allowed here because of the troll-hunters who jumped anyone who expressed any doubt about the outcome. Getting on the bandwagon for the winner only works for people still undecided, but many who who supported Clinton didn't feel the urgency to participate in GOTV efforts (since she was going to win anyway) - or to overcome obstacles on election day when they didn't plan well.

I can't tell you how many people turned up at the BOE to vote (only permitted before election day) and either voted provisionally there (it won't count because they didn't vote in their precinct) or left saying they weren't going to bother because they couldn't figure out how to the polling place before it closed after they turned up in the wrong place.

[pnwmom]

117. I'm sure there was a lot of what you describe at the BOE.

I doubt though that many of them were people who spent a lot of time on DU. Nothing that was said here, IOW , affected what the voters did at the BOE.

[Ms. Toad]

118. You have no way of knowing where the ripples go to.

They might have been people who would have gone to the right place in the first place, but for the lack of a GOTV worker who decided it wasn't necessary to GOTV since Clinton was going to win.

It's just bad, for a number of reasons to demand an echo chamber that only voices good news (including complacency that likely contributed directly or indirectly to people not voting).

[pnwmom]

119. You don't think the GOTV people were working hard? I sure heard from a lot of them,

and did some phone calling myself. It's hard for me to think this was due to a lack of effort. She actually had as many voters turn out as in 2012. Unfortunately, they were in the wrong states.

[Ms. Toad]

192. The question isn't whether the GOTV people on the ground were working hard,

It is whether others who might also have worked hard saw the "sure win" and didn't bother to join the effort because it wasn't needed.

[True Dough]

168. I agree with the points you made, Ms. Toad

It's just too bad they had to be made during a post-mortem and not expressed and received as constructive criticism in the weeks and months before the election.

[Ms. Toad]

191. They were expressed by many,

it is just that they were received as trolling.

I saw what was happening to others who expressed similar concerns, and chose not to express mine directly - there would have been no point, and I don't need the abuse.

[True Dough]

196. And when I say that it's too bad they come after the fact...

I'm referring to the environment created here at DU where people speaking their minds were labeled as "concern trolls," not as a knock against you for choosing not to swim against the tide. I too held back from sharing several observations because the bullies were out in full force to immediately "Thank you for your concern" and let you know 'Your concern has been noted."

[SleeplessinSoCal]

69. there was one election day poll that said Sanders would have beat Don 55-44

But I don't trust the poll either.

We need to get the media to do the mea culpa, A demand they put their lives on the line for forcing on us the ratings driven campaign we all suffered.

[pnwmom]

158. Yeah, there was, based on opinions developed after NOT seeing Bernie the subject

of the 2 foot thick opposition folder that the RNC had developed on him, according to Kurt Eichenwald of the Newsweek.

He had NOT been smeared. But he would have been if he had been Trump's opponent.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

162. No argument here.

The Democratic Party has been under assault since Nixon. When we divided ourselves into liberals and conservatives we were all doomed. Too many voters see parties as teams to root for. Scamming and cheating is the norm. Those of us playing by the rules don't even get in the game. We are F'd up as a nation

[shawn703]

155. Exit polls poll the people who voted

How many stayed home, sickened by their choices?

[prayin4rain]

14. Yeah, not being allowed to even mention the possibility pre-election, got pretty silly. nt

[pablo_marmol]

15. Dues paid member of the ACT here. NT

[randome]

18. You had no data to back up your concern with. There was tons of data supporting a Clinton win.

So don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Beartracks]

87. The polls were rosy, and I was not posting concerns.

I was never slapped around as a concern troll. I was probably in the overconfident camp myself. I just saw how others were treated when they revealed their misgivings about Trump's enduring success and the threat that could pose in the battleground states. These posters wern't calling Hillary names or claiming she couldn't win, or bemoaning Bernie not being the nominee, or spewing Republican talking points. They were often just worried.

=============

[Xipe Totec]

19. If only we had listened to the concern trolls...

Then we would've...

What?

Done what?

Making bets on whether the plane will land safely, when you're already on final approach is not productive.

[democrattotheend]

141. Maybe we all would have done a little bit more

I did voter protection in Philly, and I signed up for only the morning shift but they didn't send anyone to replace me in the afternoon, so I stayed until about 6. Then I let my mom convince me to come back because she didn't think it was safe for me to be out there by myself at night (it wasn't the best neighborhood) and because I had a 3 hour drive home. I eventually gave in because I thought Pennsylvania was pretty safe. If I had known then what I know now I would have insisted on staying. I know I couldn't have protected 65,000 votes myself, but I still feel guilty about it.

[vdogg]

20. The concern trolls almost never are, and are usually sent here from other sites to demoralize Democr

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day though. You seem happy though. Did you have a nice party after Trump won?

[Cary]

25. Sowing discord and discontent works wonders.

One can even win elections without a plurality. Hey, ugly is skin deep but stupidity is to the bone.

[NurseJackie]

22. So let the celebrations being! eh? --- You guys are something else.

[Cary]

24. Weak links.

[ismnotwasm]

52. I am concerned about this concern over the veracity of the average concern troll.

It concerns me that a rehash of concern seems to be an celebration of concern--not a healthy reaction IMO,

[NurseJackie]

98. Ha! You always crack me up! Thanks for the chuckle!

[Beartracks]

88. Heh. Not happy at all.

Not happy at the election results, and not happy about how DUers treated each other to get here.

===============

[ehrnst]

29. There is a difference between trolling and genuine concern.

The fact that you don't understand that doesn't mean other didn't.

[Raster]

128. unfortunately the persons that dismissed any criticism, question, discussion or inquiry...

...OUTRIGHT with "your concern is noted" decided they were the ultimate arbiter between trolling and genuine concern. Many, many good, long-term DU members were literally run off because they had doubts and concerns about Clinton being the nominee, and dared to voice their concerns. Retribution was typically swift with swarms of posters rushing in to discount alternate opinion, or even worse, using the jury system to purge "heretics" from the DU community.

Dear Skinner,

You want to get over this and move on? Allow all previous DU members --no matter who they did or did not support in the primaries-- to return. Yes, there will be pain, but any attempt to gloss over the primaries, the general and the abysmal results will only hinder recovery.

[Vinca]

33. As a former concern troll, I don't think we should waste our time and energy gloating.

It happened, it sucks and there's no way to change it. So let's look to the future.

[democrattotheend]

142. I don't see it as gloating

I think we have a problem here that we need to address. If Democrats all over had realized it wasn't in the bag more would have voted for her, and we all would have probably done just a little bit more to get out the vote.

[Paladin]

35. Yeah, I'll admit it:

1.) I vastly underestimated the number of stupid and hateful people there are in this country; and

2.) I didn't take account of how existing systems would maximize the votes of such people.


So fucking sue me. Get the gloating out of your system or disappear.

[TrekLuver]

36. I think a lesson should be learned here...just because someone posts something that is

not agreed with they were immediately shot down. And that is how you live in an echo chamber.

[Kilgore]

40. Bravo!!

As one branded a concern troll, I agree.

[LeftInTX]

120. Echo chambers don't solve anything

While DU was down, I hung out at MSM sites: WaPo, Politico, 538. Learned a bit why we lost. But I'm also learning a whole lot about the Trump transition team. Recently, President Obama delivered an encouraging message that stated things can change fast. I tend to believe it. Voters are fickle.

[Cobalt Violet]

41. and they're learning the wrong lessons from this already.

So sad.

[JTFrog]

42. We were right to be concerned about Bernie and his BoBers.

But nooooo.... We were supposed to embrace the guy who joined our party at the last minute to be a spoiler. The guy who refused to back out and let us start working toward winning the white house when it was clear he was not the people's choice. We had to endure a never ending shit storm from "our side" thrown at the most qualified candidate ever because... stubbornness and purity.

Talk about unrealistic optimism.

History repeats itself over and over.

[randome]

44. In that respect, Sanders was no better than Susan Sarandon.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cobalt Violet]

46. it's the candidate job to inspire the electorate and get the votes!

She failed to do that.

[JTFrog]

47. She got the votes.

She just didn't get the hold out votes.

She won the primary. But that wasn't good enough for Bernie or the BoBers. They had to continue to tear her down after it was clear she had won. He wouldn't concede. They wouldn't cross the divide. They dragged the negative droning on and on leaving the fight to the rest of us for a long time. Even after he got on board, the BoBers fed right into the right wing attacks on emails, transcripts, establishment bullshit. As if anyone is more establishment than a white male lifetime politician.

She won the popular vote but the Republicans have gamed the system to the point that even that doesn't matter.

Sure she was a flawed candidate. ALL candidates are. There is no such thing as a perfect candidate who will do and say everything you want.

Ted Kennedy did the same thing to Carter. History shows that and history will show Bernie's part in this. No amount of cognitive dissonance will erase it.

I'm not even going to get into the misogyny within our own party. Folks can deny it exists, but many of us have been fighting it for years. Even right here at a supposed liberal utopia.

[revbones]

55. Some are going to remain in denial

and take the wrong lesson from all this and try to cast blame where it doesn't belong.

[Cobalt Violet]

61. no doubt about it.

I'm not feeling good about the postmortem here. they seem to be holding everyone but the candidate and the party accountable.

[revbones]

63. What you see in that regard is people unable to admit they were wrong in their assumptions/vitriol

Blame Bernie, who ran the cleanest and least attacking campaign in our history, then blame his supporters most of whom switched over to vote Hillary, even those that vehemontly disagreed with her. Then blame every group imaginable rather than just for one minute assume that maybe the candidate had at least some part in things. I'm tired of seeing "We failed Hillary" instead of the other way around.

[MelissaB]

71. Unreal isn't it?

It just can't be the candidate or party's fault...

[RobinA]

170. It Could Be

But in this case I place the blame squarely on the electorate. Trump did not hide who he was. He made some promises that people would have to be delusional to believe. All this "Hillary didn't inspire me!" is a whole lot of boo-hoo whining from children whose world is approximately as big as they can reach out and touch. They live, work, raise children, grow old, buy houses, and retire in this country. They had a choice of whose version of the future they want to live in, they made it. The ignorance is the most disturbing part of this whole thing.

And, as far as the much bally-hoed WWC is concerned, it's been noted for years that they are voting against their interest. Reagan Democrats, etc. So suddenly it's the Democrats fault they are in dire straits? They vote anti-union and then cry about their jobs? Just no! Democrats could have done a different job, but when the voters prefer a guy who mocks a handicapped person on a podium in front of TV cameras, I'm not sure what might have worked better for Dems. Mock MORE handicapped people in front of TV cameras? Use it is the campaign ad?

The voters own this fair and square.

[R B Garr]

79. Bernie handed Trump his attacks. Those were not Trump's original ideas.

Trump even thanked Bernie for them. Neither one was held accountable for anything they said.

Then there were the protest votes. Those were planned by the extreme left and were called "Bern it down." So quit blaming on the party what were staged and deliberate acts by Bernie supporters.

[Cobalt Violet]

84. maybe we shouldn't back such baggage filled flawed establishment candidate next time

Can we agree to that?

[R B Garr]

85. This is the same empty rhetoric used against Al Gore. He wasn't pure

enough either. And look what that little protest got you -- George Bush's war. We could have had Al Gore's environmental policies. Bill Clinton left a surplus, and there's not telling what good could have come of that.

[RobinA]

173. Yes To This

One thing you can't say about right voters is that they are fragile flowers who need to be wooed and "reached out to." They figure who they think will give the most of what they want and the vote accordingly. They often figure wrong, but that's another story.

[Demsrule86]

43. Wow the Hillary Supporters were right.

Bernie did lasting damage to Hillary in the Primary. Had he not run, we would have President-elect Clinton. Bernie spent months beating up on Hillary and the Democratic Party. This election was too important t o risk a divisive primary but Bernie did it anyway. Now we will lose Roe V Wade, LGBTQ rights,Medicare, Social Security, Unions, student loans, food stamps and many other important progressive achievements. The courts will be lost for a minimum of twenty years and more likely thirty years. As usual the 'pure' among us helped the Republicans to a victory which should have been our victory. Those who helped Trump to victory also strengthened the haters among us. Yesterday my daughter was bullied at YSU in Youngstown Ohio by hateful Trump supporters. She and other students were at a Unity meeting (gay organization). Trump supporters had apparently spied on their social media to find out where they meet and showed up with hateful signs including messages that all gay people are going to hell and the Orlando shooting was justified. These kids are in danger now as Ohio is a gun state. So you are concerned with being right ( you are not right anyway), but me I have different concerns. I want to keep my daughter safe from Trump's asshole voters many of whom are armed. So a giant fuck you goes to any who enabled a Trump win regardless of ideology. You strengthened the haters...and so it begins.

[Cary]

48. Gee, who would have predicted that nothing good would come from sowing discord and discontent?

Oh yeah. I only said that about 10,000 times. ;

[Demsrule86]

51. I said it too...and was away for a while as a result.

[Quayblue]

106. I'm there with you.

I got hammered in a thread and accused of being a low post count troll when I said the continuing infighting would be our downfall.

I'm sad I was correct.

[Demsrule86]

133. It was our downfall and what do those who cost us the election say now

Why we should split the party so the pure can have purge people they don't like...which would cost us every election from now on...these folks should just sign up as Republicans...it is who they really support.

[duffyduff]

50. But in the end, it wasn't Sanders.

People around here were too focused on the Democratic primaries, the end result of which was NEVER in doubt, while ignoring the very real problem in the GOP primaries.

The media OWN this disaster, deserve full blame, and I will continue to say it because it is the TRUTH.

[Cary]

53. Ok

But how about forming a tight coalition against "conservatives?"

Right now I'm getting attacked by radical leftists who are thinking, again, that they're now going to take over the Democratic Party. What am I going to do with that?

[Demsrule86]

60. It was Sanders actually. I don't say he wanted this outcome.

During the primary, he bashed Hillary daily and the Democrats as well...Republicans joined in...we had a two fronted primary. Bernie refused to concede in a timely manner. Our convention was divided...and his supporters never came back. Had he never run, we would have won this close election.

[reflection]

68. He participated in a primary.

And he no more "bashed" Clinton than she "bashed" him. They had substantive differences on policy and they aired them out. She gravitated to some of his policy and that's either because she agreed with him, or felt she had to in order to win. The process is what's supposed to happen. And when he bowed out, he got behind her full bore. I personally think he made Clinton a better debater and a better candidate. She just lost, it happens. As for conceding in a timely manner, I recall Clinton hanging in well past her shelf life against Obama in 2008 and he still managed to beat McCain like a rented mule. There's plenty of blame to go around, but I could say "had Clinton never run, we would have won this close election" and it carries the same weight.

[Cary]

73. There was a lot more to it then that

[reflection]

75. Like what?

I think everything I said was pretty accurate, but if it wasn't, or I omitted something, I'm always willing to learn and modify my viewpoint. The truth does usually fall in the middle, in my experience.

[Cary]

82. Ugh, the fallacy of the golden mean

The middle of what?

Sanders himself wasn't the entire campaign. He is not a Democrat. I am not sure whether or not he was trying to lead a "revolution" but I am not in his head or his heart. I can only say that he didn't exactly distance himself from that mentality, and ultimately he had no real path. So the net effect of that was to sow a lot of discord and discontent about Democrats and Hillary Clinton herself. In effect they aided and abetted the "conservative" disinformation.

And that's just no way win anything. It's a way to divide and conquer. To what extent did that cause the loss? You have to look at the bigger picture. I'm sure enough people were turned off to create the razor thin margins in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Further it clearly helped to energize others.

I'm making general statements here based on my own speculation, but I'm on pretty solid ground I think in saying that your statement was overly simplistic.

[reflection]

86. My god, it had to be simplistic. And most truth is between two viewpoints.

All you said was, "there was a lot more to it than that." I didn't have a lot to work with and asked for clarification. I appreciate your follow-up explanation. In the interest of not tilting at windmills or irritating you, I'll leave you to it and not argue further. Have a great day.

[Cary]

91. There's never anything simple about human nature

Using the fallacy of the golden mean is just plain old lazy.

[Demsrule86]

81. This was a bad year with the courts at stake and a good chance to retake the Senate

for Bernie to enter a primary and proceed to bash Hillary non-stop and the Democratic party. He cost us the election and the courts. Ironically, he destroyed his revolution as well. Regardless of what he intended, this is what happened.

[pnwmom]

112. He accused her of corruption many times. That is bashing.

He was wrong not to drop out in mid April or early May when the numbers of remaining delegates made it mathematically impossible for him to win (unless the super-delegates decided to overturn the results of the voters -- which was never going to happen.)

Instead, he insisted on continuing to campaign hard against Hillary all the way up to the convention.

But he could have redeemed himself when Wikileaks leaked those DNC emails -- the ones where people were "plotting" to help Hillary. He should have explained that since those emails were in May, they were just trying to figure out how to help the person who had already won the required number of pledged delegates. But he didn't. He played the martyr, and then got to go to the convention and pretend to be the savior.

And he helped ensure the election of DT.

[Demsrule86]

136. Bernie should never have run.

He spent months running Hillary down and the Democratic Party as a whole. It was clear early on that he could not win:given our proportionate system of allotting delegates. At this point, he should have conceded graciously and worked to elect Hillary. Instead, he waited for the indictment fairy refused to concede;he wrecked the convention. The Bernie campaign made sure that the protest could go on in Phillie...I am very disappointed in Bernie. I know he did not desire to elect Trump...but he did help elect Trump.

[reflection]

137. Oh for God's sake.

Every primary is a thunderdome. Hell, look at the Republican one. Fifteen malcontents calling one guy the Antichrist. He managed to get past it. Hillary ran down Obama in 2008 and stayed in very late, not dissimilar to Bernie this time around, and chalked it up to "we all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated." Obama got past all that. Hillary couldn't. I voted for Hillary. But this is not a birthright, you have to compete for it, and Bernie competed vigorously. Even in the middle of all that, he could have disemboweled her on the email question in the early debates and he elected to call it what it was, a nothingburger. Said he was sick of hearing about her emails. I thought that was classy.

Bernie could have just as well folded his tent and gone home once he was defeated. But he didn't. He stuck around and campaigned his ass off for her. Alternatively, he could have decided early on to run as an independent. Hillary would likely have lost even more badly, as it was obvious people were itching to burn it all down and vote for anyone but an "insider." He probably would have gotten Perot-type numbers, somewhere around 15-20%, most from Clinton.

You can be disappointed in Bernie, that's your right. But Hillary isn't blaming him.

[Cary]

72. I can't refute that.

[jmg257]

94. F&%ing bernie...hey at least he met the Pope! nt

[Demsrule86]

83. It was Sanders. He drove her negatives down with constant attacks and his supporters never

came home. I don't say he desired this outcome or even saw it coming, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say.

[RobinA]

174. The Voters Own

this disaster. There was enough information out there to make a choice. They did.

[Demsrule86]

190. Sorry...Berned railed against Hillary on trade and refused to concede in a timely fashion.

It was bitter and divisive, and we never recovered.

[Beartracks]

96. I wasn't a "concern troll," so I wasn't "right."

I didn't like seeing discussion shot down on a discussion board as legitimately concerned posters were condescendingly dismissed as trolls ONLY BECAUSE they had concerns. And their concerns were justified, unfortunately.

I sincerely hope your daughter stays safe.

===============

[Demsrule86]

135. Good to know.

Of course, the age-old practice of tearing down a Democratic candidate would have been so helpful...like how it helped Obama win big in 10...oh wait.

[pnwmom]

111. And he pre-tested the themes DT would use in the general:

about Hillary's "corruption" and the "rigged system."

Worked like a charm.

[Demsrule86]

132. Yes he did...and we lost the courts.

[Raster]

130. It. Wasn't. Bernie. And anyone that can't honestly look at Clinton as a candidate...

...from the perspective of middle America and see the potential problems are fooling themselves.

First of all, Clinton was considered the presumptive nominee LONG BEFORE one single primary vote was cast. The dismissive, presumptive attitude TURNED OFF MANY. Sanders didn't run to fuck with Clinton, he ran to bring voice to issues he believed were relevant and had broad appeal, which it turned out they did. And that is called "democracy." It appears you object that Sanders --or anyone, for that matter-- had the audacity to challenge Clinton's candidacy, seemingly thinking that somehow Clinton was owed the Presidency. She wasn't.

At times Hillary was her own worst enemy.

Did Sanders tell Hillary to give secretive high-dollar speeches to the Wall Street crowd, even though every indicator said many Americans had TRUST ISSUES with Clinton and then refused even to attempt to share transcripts, showing the content of her speeches?

Did Bernie set up a private mail server for Hillary Clinton and encourage its use, though just about EVERYONE in the government community advised against it?

I don't know about you, but if I know I were going to run for President, and know that many Americans had trust issues with me, I would attempt to be as transparent as possible, and I would certainly go out of my way to eliminate any underlying issues that would cause controversy and blow-back, long before they were used as a cudgel to bludgeon my candidacy.

And further, if I knew there was a veritable INDUSTRY catering to hatred and misinformation for me and about me, I certainly think I would attempt to NOT HELP PROVIDE THE AMMUNITION FOR MY FIRING SQUAD.

Basket of deplorables, anyone?

[Demsrule86]

131. It was Bernie. We would have won. And now the progressive revoution is probably dead.

It will take a miracle for us to keep progressive policy going back to Roosevelt. Bernie should never have run. Since he insisted on running during a critical year (courts), he should have got out of the primary when it was clear he could not win. Instead, Bernie waited around hoping for the Indictment fairy He should have conceded in the usual way. Instead, he created much drama. Clearly, he caused a huuuuge division in our party, and he is not even a Democrat. I don't say Bernie meant this to happen...but he bears a great deal of the responsibility for the Trump victory. My fear is that Democrats will not be able to put this toxic episode behind us, and we will lose again. One more loss and we are done. We could have saved the courts. As the mother of a gay daughter, I honestly don't know if I can ever forgive Bernie and those who voted for Trump...either directly,voting third party or staying home.

[Ace Rothstein]

188. Stop blaming Bernie for the Clinton campaign ignoring white working class voters.

That's why she lost.

[hueymahl]

183. Well put

Thank you.

[Bob41213]

189. And the Sanders supporters were right, he'd get blamed in the end...

[duffyduff]

49. Nope. It is because these people have NO clue what went down in this election.

BTW, she did win the popular vote. Only the EC prevented it.

[Bobbie Jo]

56. No they weren't.

They were contributors.

[budkin]

57. Everyone was confident Hillary would win

Even Trump's own team

[Cobalt Violet]

62. there were a few people who called it right.

Most here didn't want to hear it. They refused to listen.

[stevenleser]

102. The fact that some were "proven right" on a boolean proposition doesn't mean much.

Pumas were betting on the same thing in 2008 re: Obama. Every four years you have folks unhappy with their party's nominee who bet against them.

[pnwmom]

113. Few knew that Comey was going to put his fist on the scale 11 days before the election,

which caused her poll numbers to plummet, and again two days before the election, just as they had started to rise again.

[zonkers]

66. Careful, your thread will get alerted for stating the truth.

[Renew Deal]

76. It already did

Last night. I was on the jury

[zonkers]

97. Alert is often the last refuge of sheep who have run out of words.

[TwilightZone]

99. Which ones? The ones who voted for Stein or the ones who voted for Trump?

Some of those concern trolls are openly bragging on other "progressive" websites that they voted for Trump.

You might want to reconsider giving them credit for much of anything.

[Beartracks]

100. The ones who voted for Clinton.

I was referring to concerned posters who were NOT trolls, but were unfairly pasted with the big Concern Troll brush along with the braggart-types you refer to.

=================

[redstatebluegirl]

101. I was one of those, I got called a right wing troll and worse.

Guess what I was correct. I hate that I was, but I was. We need to quit reading polls and get out the vote in 2018.

[Lil Missy]

104. A stopped clock is right twice a day. Concern trolls are .... trolls

You can put lipstick on a pig ..... it's still a pig.

But thanks for your .... concern.

[Beartracks]

109. Concern trolls are concern trolls.

Except when they're not.

============

[Demsrule86]

134. Do you like Roosevelt?

Me too...of course we can kiss every bit of his policy goodbye now. Oh, and for old times sake thanks for your concern. Too bad some Democrats and those who call themselves Progressive (one can call oneself a ham sandwich doesn't mean it is true) or liberal didn't care enough about those policies to save them from Trump by voting for Hillary...the only one who could stop him.

[Beartracks]

138. Don't thank me; I wasn't concerned.

I fell into the Hillary's-got-it-in-the-bag trap. Voted for her happily and confidently early in the morning (even though my vote was over-ridden by the red-staters that surround me). If I had any worries about how well Trump could do on Election Day, I didn't post about it. A couple times I did echo President Obama: keep running scared all the way through Election Day, because complacency would be our enemy.

Your misplaced thanks is misplaced. And disingenuous.

===============

[raging moderate]

105. I think Clinton did run a good campaign.

The thing is, there has been a massive campaign against her, and a lot of people have been deceived by it. The other side is wealthy, ruthless, and totally immoral. They want war, empire, feudalism, and slavery. They can pay for endless probes to find out how to deceive different groups and set them against each other. They will mow down anybody who resists them.

[Beartracks]

122. I do too. Despite everything arrayed against her...

... she really did almost win the Electoral College. And she DID win the popular vote.

I am still impressed.

Well... Impressed AND pissed.

==========

[RonniePudding]

151. Not playing in Wisconsin or Michigan until the end was a tactical error

But outside of that, they did a good job presenting a candidate in a positive light that a lot of the country viewed in a very negative light. I do wish they had spent more time building up Hillary's ideas and policies rather than making most of the campaign about disqualifying her opponent but hindsight is always 20/20.

[MFM008]

108. This announcement

Helps how? You feel better?

[LeftInTX]

114. I had a nagging feeling, but didn't express it on DU

Then with Comey's announcement on Oct 28th, I didn't feel very optimistic. Prior to Comey's letter, I feel that Clinton was coasting a bit. Trump shit all over himself and that is not a bad strategy when you are literally watching your candidate implode.

Then came Comey's letter....I also sensed something in Hillary's voice after that letter. A spark was gone.

However, it is up to the campaigns to be the concerned ones. We can donate time and money to deal with anxiety, but we can only do so much.

[Bucky]

116. Your concern is duly noted. I'm confident we will impeach and remove Trump by Christmas

and then there'll be a special election called by Constitutional Amendment by February and America will elect Oprah and The Rock on a unity ticket on Valentine's Day. And it will be awesome.

[Beartracks]

123. Sounds like a new national holiday to me!

===============

[In_The_Wind]

124. *

[Bucky]

125. You're less than three to me, Windy

<3 ya. Keep bringing light into the DU

[Turbineguy]

126. I think we misjudged the extreme hate toward

Hillary Clinton and underestimated the self-destructive love for Trump.

[marlakay]

165. Wasn't about that

My older daughter works for large company filled with republicans. If we want to win we need to know where they really are, not just assume they are racist or bad.

According to her they are living paycheck to paycheck and believed Trump when he said he would lower taxes to give them more of their check for bills. They believed him about bringing jobs back to America.

And lastly while they want and need healthcare they can't afford the monthly cost and Obamacare was being forced on them when they could barely afford to eat.

Those of us with good jobs, good health care, or living in a blue state that accepted help from feds to make things easier didn't feel it as much. Rest of the country is hurting.

Flint's water never got fixed by anyone. Do we wonder why almost 100K didn't vote for either in that state?

I think we have a lot of thinking to do, and blaming each other doesn't help.

[heaven05]

129. yep

[mvd]

146. I am devastated right now. We are winnng the popular vote by nearly 2 million!

Because of a margin of less than 100,000 in 3 states, we lost. And our country is in huge trouble. I wish Hillary had not conceded that night.

Not all who predicted Trump's win were concern trolls. My Democratic uncle in central PA thought he would win. His county, Centre in PA, went for Clinton - but he sees Trump supporters a lot. I personally thought Clinton would win fairly comfortably.

Here are the reasons why we lost IMO:

1. Ignoring Bill Clinton's advice to focus on the working class. Remember, many minorities are also working class. And not one stop by Hillary in Wisconsin. Would Bernie have won? I personally think so because his populist message would resonate more than the socialist label would hurt, but you never know what they would have thrown at him.

2. FBI interference in an election - do we really live in a democracy?

3. Hostile media except for a few voices on MSNBC, liberal media which doesn't have a big audience, and a few newspapers. Never want to hear about the "liberal" media again. They also let Trump lie and made his nonsense seem normal.

4. Our party needs to get rid of the third way, business friendly bent. That has hurt the party for years. But Bernie and Elizabeth can not do it forever. We need young progressives to step up.

[Beartracks]

147. Thx, I agree with your spot-on post.

I feel much the same way.

And, yeah: devastated.



================

[baldguy]

148. The objective of the concern trolls was to supress the Clinton vote & drive up support for Trump.

In that, they succeeded. But Hillary still got more votes.

[Beartracks]

167. Not all concerned were trolls.

But nearly all were labeled as such.

Some have replied to this OP. It is THOSE posters -- the ones who were falsely accused of being trolls just *because* they were concerned -- that I'm talking about. Who else should they have turned to but their community of fellow, welcoming, understanding Dems? I don't think I'm going out on a limb to imagine they were seeking reassurance rather than insults.

And, as noted: it turns out their concerns were justified.

I'm sure there were actual trolls doing therir subversive best to do what you're suggesting. I just don't think it was fair that legitimately worried Dems got pigeonholed with them at DU.

==================

[baldguy]

169. The ones wishing to destroy the Democratic Party in order to "save" it are just as bad.

There's a promotional spot for a supposedly liberal/progressive radio show where they spend 5 min bashing Clinton, bashing the DNC and bashing the Party - all with the same old RW bullshit: both parties are the same, Clinton is a closet conservative, Bernie would have done much better, etc etc.

The kicker? They close by saying: "When we stick together we win."

The fact is Clinton won the popular vote. The only reason she didn't succeed is because a small number of "the concerned" did not follow the majority, instead wanting to punish the Dems since their whining didn't effect the outcome of the primaries, and they decided Trump was more in line with their "progressive values". Such behavior is immature. Such actions are delusional. And the results were catastrophic.

So, no. "The concerned" as you describe them were not justified.

[Yo_Mama]

149. Unfortunately, yes. The Democratic party had a wider problem than just DU, though.

It wasn't just here, by a long shot.

And people looking at all the polls had a reason for confidence.

Me, I spent the last six weeks in a state of split perception - my gut told me that Hillary would lose big; my professional life is very data-based, and the data totally contradicted my gut.

[alarimer]

153. Yes, as it turns we were all whistling past the graveyard a little bit.

Myself included.

I think there are many reasons for the loss. I don't think it can be so simplistically dismissed as just racism or just sexism or just any one thing in particular.

I also think it is a mistake to not hold the Democratic Party apparatus accountable for this.

Going forward, it is clear that it needs to return to its more populist roots.

[treestar]

156. No they weren't

Their intent was to sow fear and doubt. That's all they cared about.

[Beartracks]

166. Not all concerned were trolls.

But nearly all were labeled as such.

Some have replied to this OP. It is THOSE posters -- the ones who were falsely accused of being trolls just *because* they were concerned -- that I'm talking about. Who else should they have turned to but their community of fellow, welcoming, understanding Dems? I don't think I'm going out on a limb to imagine they were seeking reassurance rather than insults.

And, as noted: it turns out their concerns were justified.

==================

[treestar]

171. If they had been concerned about the vote in the swing states

Or really concerned, they would have gotten out and worked in the swing states, rather than demoralizing us on this board.

As it turned out, the Orange Toxin got every single swing state, which was unlikely. The concerned were never talking about that. So they are not justified. They were not concerned about the right thing.

[LisaL]

179. Everybody should have been concerned instead of claiming that election was in the bag.

[dubyadiprecession]

159. We didn't expect all the polls to be total shit! (Nate Silver's lost all credibility)...

and we didn't expect Hilary to surround herself with clueless people on the ground in the rust belt. I guess they pretended to walk the precincts!

[LisaL]

164. Nate Silver doesn't personally conduct polls.

He just aggregates polls others do. People put way too much credence into polls. Polls aren't exact science. Also, if those polled are lying, pollsters have no way of figuring that out.

[Ace Rothstein]

160. Nate Silver doesn't conduct any polls.

He was also the only prognosticator giving Trump a chance but nobody here wanted to listen to him.

[doc03]

161. First of all I am happy DU is back. To be stuck in Ohio

with nobody to talk to about the election results has been tough. I am one of those
some labeled as a concern troll, all I can say is I wish I was wrong and I told you so.
As I said many times I could not believe the Trump signs everywhere you went in eastern Ohio
WV and PA. We were told signs don't mean votes. Then there was total absence of any
evidence of a Democratic campaign for President or Senate. I couldn't understand why the
campaign was wasting time in places like Texas trying to expand the map when anyone should
have seen we were going to have trouble in the rust belt. But it is what it is and we now have a raving
maniac heading for the Whitehouse.

[LisaL]

163. I had concerns as well.

People were so sure this elections was in the bag because of polls.
Polls don't win elections.
Polls aren't exact science. I think at least some Trump voters were lying to the pollsters.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

175. In all fairness

The polls heading into Election Day all seemed pretty favorable to Hillary, though Comey's letter seemed to suddenly take the wind out of her sails that had been building. I still find it weird that all of the polls were off so much in so many places and that the election ended up going so horrifically wrong for us. I mean, Ron Johnson, one of the stupidest GOP Senators in the country, won re-election over Russ Feingold? I have not seen hard evidence of election fraud/hacking but it all just seems weird.

[Drunken Irishman]

176. The polls were no worse off than in 2012...

They just shifted the wrong way. Polls predicted a far closer Obama win than he eventually saw. Much of that was due to the fact so many states were within the MOE. Obama did what Hillary couldn't, though, and won most, if not all, those states.

I think it was a mix of a few things...

1) The Comey letter helped depress turnour.
2) The retraction probably fired up conservatives
3) Enthusiasm was higher for Trump than Clinton
4) A lot of Democrats thought the election was in the bag

A very similar election to 2004, IMO.

As for Ron Johnson, polls suggested the race would be tight and there was a clear trend in the final polls that indicated there was a shift toward Johnson in the final days. A week before the election, Feingold held a near-7 point lead. That was down three points by election day. A shift there that probably also indicated as much at the presidential level...but no one really believed Hillary would lose Wisconsin.

It sucks.

[LisaL]

180. Well, exactly. There was a whole bunch of polls that were very close.

Yet somehow people claimed that election was in the bag, or states we actually ended up losing were in the bag. Which perhaps led some democrats to stay home or vote third party (or write in Bugs Bunny). Because if election is in the bag, it's safe to write in Bugs Bunny.
That clearly didn't turn out well.

[Drunken Irishman]

184. Pretty much. :/

It felt like 2016 was the opposite of 2012 in the sense many of us were absolutely terrified Obama might lose, so we came out in droves to make sure it didn't happen.

In 2016, most felt like there was no way Trump could win, and while the polls were close, Clinton had a consistent and healthy lead, which allowed us to ease up a bit and either stay home or vote third party.

What we should have known, based on what happened with Brexit, is that polls matter - but only to a point. How many people didn't vote, or voted for Brexit because they thought not to leave had it in the bag? The margins were still too small for anyone to feel comfortable about protest votes or voter apathy.

Had we paid more attention what happened in the UK, we might've been able to avoid all of this.

[LisaL]

185. I was trying to point out that polls don't win elections, and that polls are close. But it fell on

deaf ears. Of course our wonderful msm was claiming that election was in the bag.
Only of course it wasn't.

[Drunken Irishman]

186. And I was just pointing out that you were right?

[LisaL]

187. I was agreeing with you also.

On all your points. I think Comey's letter played a huge role. Election was lost by tiny margins in three states. Comey's letter alone could have done it. Democrats in these states thinking election was in the bag, and they could stay home, write in Bugs Bunny, or vote third party, could have done it. We are talking about less than 1 point across three states (MI, WI, PA).

[doc03]

193. I think the campaign knew things weren't looking so good

when at the last minute all the big guns were out trying to gin up turnout. Mainly I think it was that asshat Comey's letter that
pulled it out for that asshat Trump.

[LisaL]

195. We got played. Comey's letters had perfect timing.

I agree, that alone could have changed the outcome considering how close it was in three states that mattered due to our antiquated electoral college.

[Drunken Irishman]

198. Absolutely.

Comey put his hand on the scale and it worked - barely.

[Drunken Irishman]

197. I agree with that. It's clear their internals saw a shift in PA and MI.

There's a reason she ended in PA with that mega rally and not FL. It was clear PA was shifting and they tried to stop that shift in the last day but couldn't quite do it. In fact, I'd wager they would've lost PA by a larger margin had they not held that final rally.

It was similar to 2004 and Kerry's final rally in WI. He won that state by only a few thousand votes and I don't think he would have had he not gone to Madison.

Sucks that Comey changed the dynamics and I feel the retraction on Sunday hurt more than it helped. It was the last thing voters heard and it just brought it back to the e-mails and not the actual clearing of her.

Fuck.

[Beartracks]

194. Election Day employs "polling places"...

... and I agree with you: THAT is the only poll that matters!

============