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NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 12:57 AM Dec 2016

The Fatal Flaw in the Post-Mortem Analyses

Like everyone here, I have been reading the autopsy reports on Hillary’s campaign. So far, she lost the election due to everything from her choice of high school courses to her last bad hair day.

What is being overlooked by pretty much everyone posting their post-election opinions on political discussion boards is the fact that the average voter doesn’t post on political websites – in fact, most voters don’t even read them, or even know they exist.

The truth is that those of us who do post, here or elsewhere, are political junkies. We follow every move made by anyone connected to US politics. We parse their every statement, we know their histories from their first campaign to their most recent tweet. We can recite, verbatim, every speech they’ve ever made, every word they’ve ever uttered. We can tell anyone interested what scandals they have been even remotely connected to, what positions they’ve taken on every issue since being elected, and what their spouses wore at their last public appearance. In some cases, we can rattle-off the names and ages of their children, along with the names of their household pets.

“Hillary lost because she voted for the Iraq war. She lost because she didn’t address the email issue or Benghazi strenuously enough. She lost because she was once a Goldwater Girl, and people never forgot. She lost because she was friendly with Dubya at a fundraiser, and that turned people off. She lost because of her position on ____" Just fill in the blank with something that happened more than six weeks ago, and you’re delving into history that most people aren’t even aware of, no less based their vote on.

What we all fail to acknowledge is that the average voter doesn’t know – nor care – what HRC, nor any other politician, did before they go to the polls to cast their ballots. For the most part, the average voter can’t name their own congress critters, no less tell you what their position is on anything. The truth is that when asked, the average voter isn’t quite sure that the Civil War actually happened, no less which side won.

Let’s remember that a large part of the population still think that Obama didn’t do enough to keep the country safe when he was president during the 9/11 attacks, or when Katrina happened on his watch.

To cite Hillary’s alleged failings of thirty years ago, twenty years ago, or even six months ago as being her downfall in a 2016 election is the stuff that political junkies cling to as an explanation or an excuse – depending on whose side you’re on – despite the fact that the average voter can’t tell you who the president was on September 11, 2001.

We unfortunately live in a world where the average voter is far more aware of whose single topped the charts in 1960 than who was elected POTUS that same year. They can tell you what movie won Best Picture in 1974, but they can’t tell you why Nixon resigned. They can recite the entire history of every Kardashian ever born, but they don’t know the history of their own country – nor are they interested.

Why did HRC really lose this election? Maybe it was too many poor wardrobe choices, or the wrong tweet at the wrong time.

Or maybe it was because the average voter was too busy binge-watching Boardwalk Empire, Dexter, or maybe The Apprentice, to pay attention to an election that would ultimately impact their access to affordable healthcare, their right to choose, the rights of their fellow citizens to marry who they love – or simply the idea that maybe a bigoted racist should never have had a shot at the presidency in the first place.

Blame it on HRC, the DNC, DWS, the PTB, the NRA, the CIA – and all of the other alphabet soup conspirators. What it comes down to is the FUV – the fucked-up-voter – who couldn’t be bothered to look beyond the bumper-sticker slogans in order to make an informed choice.

So stop thinking that the average voter even knows what Hillary did while First Lady, a NY senator, or Secretary of State. The truth is that the average voter hardly remembers that she ever held those positions – if they ever knew – no less what she said or did while she held any of those positions.

In today’s world, nothing that happened more than three weeks ago has any relevance to the average voter, and attributing Hill’s loss to things like her friendship with Henry Kissinger only leads to one thing: a flurry of Google searches entitled Who is Henry Kissinger?

Ultimately, HRC “lost” because too many of the people who voted for her live in the “wrong states”. It has nothing to do with what she said thirty years ago, things that only political junkies care about, or have any awareness of whatsoever.

This was never an election based on Hillary’s past history. It was an election based on who said what in the three weeks before the election – and whether they said it on a “news” network that was up in the ratings at the time.

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The Fatal Flaw in the Post-Mortem Analyses (Original Post) NanceGreggs Dec 2016 OP
Too many of them knew one thing for sure: they didn't like her BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #1
As far as tRump polling as being more honest... I always say never underestimate the stupidity of the average American voter. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2016 #5
This was an unparalleled election. a I would not take away anything from it at all. SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2016 #16
You certainly can't trust an FBI to which you have appointed a Republican to head. nt Nay Dec 2016 #41
In the end, the majority of voters ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #17
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. TwilightZone Dec 2016 #2
Your post needs video. Here: longship Dec 2016 #4
Not a bad analysis... you're absolutely right, the average voter is horribly misinformed... InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2016 #3
The average AMERICAN VOTER sheshe2 Dec 2016 #6
Even a surprising number of intelligent, well-educated people I know... maddiemom Dec 2016 #15
Agree. And when a 20-something was giving me his (uninformed) views on the election spooky3 Dec 2016 #64
Well put. Unfortunately, the response to that politically needs to be flashier, more social Grown2Hate Dec 2016 #7
My idea may be a bit stupid, but in this day and age, might be the only hope... rwsanders Dec 2016 #13
I've often thought this might be a good idea. Ligyron Dec 2016 #43
I'm thinking Ted Danson rwsanders Dec 2016 #72
yep... dhill926 Dec 2016 #8
I live and work in places that voted in T Tumbulu Dec 2016 #9
Mega Dittos...n/t orwell Dec 2016 #19
and yet we control Hollywood pretty much Ligyron Dec 2016 #45
A lot of that stupidity is driven by the Reich Wing media . . FairWinds Dec 2016 #10
Like the OP is saying, the average American voter doesn't Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #20
Respectfully disagree, Mr. Grey FairWinds Dec 2016 #53
Not a Mr. Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #55
Sadly this is pretty close to accurate. Flatpicker Dec 2016 #11
NanceGreggs brings up a lot of fair points as does Beyond Geography. PatsFan87 Dec 2016 #12
Why would we have someone "controversial" as our candidate? NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #23
It doesn't matter how qualified a candidate is when they're shrouded in controversy PatsFan87 Dec 2016 #28
Yeah, I get your point. NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #32
Having a candidate who's actually electable is a good thing. PatsFan87 Dec 2016 #34
Hillary won the popular vote ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #57
Because she didn't win. PatsFan87 Dec 2016 #68
So Democrats should forget about the country ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #69
There are numerous reasons why the Clinton's lost. applegrove Dec 2016 #14
25+ Years of Marketing Bettie Dec 2016 #18
The last thing most voters heard about was from Comey world wide wally Dec 2016 #21
sigh.... KnR Hekate Dec 2016 #22
can't really disagree... nt TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #24
Excellent analysis...nt asuhornets Dec 2016 #25
She should have visited, just visited, the Upper Midwest and PA RelativelyJones Dec 2016 #26
She thought she had their votes covered, bad mistake in hindsight! akbacchus_BC Dec 2016 #29
She should have ... NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #30
You still need to show up and rally the troops RelativelyJones Dec 2016 #35
Sorry, but no. NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #58
So you think the campaign made no mistakes? RelativelyJones Dec 2016 #59
Every campaign makes "mistakes". NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #60
I agree. RelativelyJones Dec 2016 #71
according to this thread, what good would it do? NRQ891 Dec 2016 #44
The meme "But she should have campaigned in 'X' state" has been debunked BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #51
Have you seen this list of all of her events in PA, WI, etc., during that time period? spooky3 Dec 2016 #65
Not only that, CNN and MSNBC had trump on tv 24 effing 7. Those two networks got trump elected, akbacchus_BC Dec 2016 #27
I was in the States for a week in October, and I noticd that, too DFW Dec 2016 #39
What you said! leftofcool Dec 2016 #31
K&R brer cat Dec 2016 #33
It's simpler than any of the above, just not ready for a female POTUS. CK_John Dec 2016 #36
I'm not sure I buy that NRQ891 Dec 2016 #42
Niki Haley, Jan Brewer, that horrible woman from Tenn, Blacksomething Ligyron Dec 2016 #47
None ran for POTUS but it is the only way we will get a female POTUS is CK_John Dec 2016 #54
Another of your Magic Eight Ball prophecies, eh? LanternWaste Dec 2016 #82
that too, absolutely; the first one always has to be shot down, but never forget, she actually WON TheFrenchRazor Dec 2016 #56
Blue collar workers in the Rust Belt know Pres Clinton signed NAFTA and PNTR with China Dems to Win Dec 2016 #37
Where's the standing ovation emoji? Nwgirl503 Dec 2016 #38
they can smell condecendsion, that's for sure NRQ891 Dec 2016 #40
K&R BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #46
Yes but those people at the water cooler or break room do listen to Political Junkies Ligyron Dec 2016 #49
I work in an office like that BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #50
Wait....they wouldn't vote if Obama wasn't on the ballot? LisaM Dec 2016 #79
Yup. BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #83
In Seattle we have a lot of elections. LisaM Dec 2016 #85
Outside of ad hoc special elections BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #89
We have vote by mail only (I'm not a fan, actually) LisaM Dec 2016 #91
I thought I had seen that Washington State (and I think Oregon) had mail-in BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #92
Most people like it more than I do, but.... LisaM Dec 2016 #93
The key states were so close that "political junkies" may well have made the difference this time. dawg Dec 2016 #48
Actually agree with this BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #52
It's the Electorate's fault that a candidate didn't win? TransitJohn Dec 2016 #61
Uh, yeah. n/t NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #62
Brilliant. TransitJohn Dec 2016 #63
It has absolutely nothing to do with trust. NanceGreggs Dec 2016 #66
A huge section of America is into reality shows marlakay Dec 2016 #67
K&R! DemonGoddess Dec 2016 #70
We had a primary candidate who was aggressively pulling in formerly disconnected voters hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #73
Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #74
And yet Hillary still got millions more votes than he did and handily won the GE by over 3 million JTFrog Dec 2016 #88
What are you even talking about? hellofromreddit Dec 2016 #94
You are looking at the FUV as if it isn't a symptom of something systemic. JCanete Dec 2016 #75
she lost due to the electoral college treestar Dec 2016 #76
I know very different "average voters" than the ones you described. democrank Dec 2016 #77
Simply fed up my ass. JTFrog Dec 2016 #80
I didnt use the word "all", since I prefer "some" or "many" democrank Dec 2016 #84
DU rec... SidDithers Dec 2016 #78
!!!!! BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #90
Nope. You can't dismiss the effect of three decades of right-wing mythology. Orsino Dec 2016 #81
Great post Gothmog Dec 2016 #86
I find it hard to believe, but I partially agree with you. Exilednight Dec 2016 #87
Hillary Clinton lost because people wanted an 'outsider' this election, and Hillary is perceived,.. aidbo Dec 2016 #95
Were these same voters NeoConsSuck Dec 2016 #96

BeyondGeography

(39,351 posts)
1. Too many of them knew one thing for sure: they didn't like her
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:04 AM
Dec 2016

And yes, a lot of them, if asked why, would give you all sorts of hooey in response. But how could you not cringe when Trump scored higher on honesty in the last week before Election Day? (Apparently a lot of that came from people who felt he was more genuine.) That twice as many people thought she was more qualified and they still voted for the other guy? People were dug in on their feelings about her. One takeaway: we should think very hard before we nominate another candidate who has been on the national stage for a quarter century and whose negatives are north of 50 percent.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
5. As far as tRump polling as being more honest... I always say never underestimate the stupidity of the average American voter.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:17 AM
Dec 2016

SleeplessinSoCal

(9,088 posts)
16. This was an unparalleled election. a I would not take away anything from it at all.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 02:06 AM
Dec 2016

Other than to never take a vote for granted. (And do not trust the FBI)

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
17. In the end, the majority of voters ...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 02:28 AM
Dec 2016

... found her to be "likeable enough:", and voted accordingly.

I understand where you're coming from, and appreciate the reasoning behind it. But what it comes down to for me is that I don't think the leader of the nation should be chosen on the basis of who people like or don't like, as opposed to who is best qualified for the job.

If people want to vote on that basis, we should dispense with elections altogether, and let FaceBook decide who should hold the most powerful position on the planet.

TwilightZone

(25,429 posts)
2. Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:09 AM
Dec 2016

George Carlin. It has always been applicable but never been more appropriate.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
3. Not a bad analysis... you're absolutely right, the average voter is horribly misinformed...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:13 AM
Dec 2016

The question then becomes, KNOWING THIS, what is a skilled politician to do?

We should be analyzing what Hillary did right, and did wrong, at least in the context of reaching out, not only to misinformed voters, but also, uninspired non-voters - to awaken them from their complacency - with the goal of more favorably changing the outcome of future elections.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
15. Even a surprising number of intelligent, well-educated people I know...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:56 AM
Dec 2016

are "too busy" with work and families to pay much attention to politics, even in a presidential election year.

spooky3

(34,407 posts)
64. Agree. And when a 20-something was giving me his (uninformed) views on the election
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:30 AM
Dec 2016

and how people don't have time, etc., I asked him if he knew who the current quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers was (we are not in that city). He smiled. I then said, "and I bet you know all his passing statistics, and those for most or all of the other quarterbacks in the NFL." He began to laugh and said, "you're right. Point made..."

All it would take is taking the 20 minutes at halftime to go to candidates' websites to get just a little informed. But too many people won't even do that. And the result: President Trump, and a Congress filled with people who are well-funded, but do not represent the interests of most voters.

Grown2Hate

(2,009 posts)
7. Well put. Unfortunately, the response to that politically needs to be flashier, more social
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:30 AM
Dec 2016

media savvy, sound-bite friendly, personality driven candidates. I'm not sure who that is right now in our party. We have some great politicians, but not THAT. The game was just flipped on us. I don't know how well that plays anymore. The only that come to mind are Bernie and Warren because of how fiery and shoot-from-the-hip they are compared to most politicians, but they have their own flaws as well (as much as I love them both!).

Either that or we're overreacting to a once-in-a-lifetime type of overreaction by the electorate, which may be quickly flipped around by a disastrous Presidency.

It's SO hard to say until we see a little bit of what actually happens (and the electorate's reaction) that it's increasingly difficult to even start preparing for 2018 and 2020 right now. SO much work to do.

rwsanders

(2,594 posts)
13. My idea may be a bit stupid, but in this day and age, might be the only hope...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:41 AM
Dec 2016

After St. Ronnie made such an impact despite being a treasonous SOB, I have often thought that what the Democrats need is a very popular older celebrity with some free time to run as a figurehead and load up some qualified people to actually run things.
Writing this I realize that that is almost what Trump is except he is actually forming his own cabinet.

Ligyron

(7,617 posts)
43. I've often thought this might be a good idea.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:16 AM
Dec 2016

But I'll be damned if I can think of just who yet.

Oprah's popular but considering how racist Americans apparently are, I don't know if she's fly, although I'd love to be wrong on that. Ellen too but she's gay so, IDK how that plays out in "real" Murica.

Whoever it is they'd have to take a major pay cut never mind that Trump says he will though still will control his biz thru the kids.

Jimmy Fallon? Brad Pit? mmmm, IDK.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
9. I live and work in places that voted in T
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:33 AM
Dec 2016

and the hatred for Hillary was the reason. And the hatred was all because she has been vilified for 25 years by Rush and the like. 25 years of listening to how horrible she is. The hate media has had a profound effect on the demographic that voted for T. AM hate radio has been attacking Hillary in particular, and all liberal positions for a generation. And urban people have had no idea how powerful this tactic is. The thing is that in the rural areas, many people have to drive long distances, there is little FM reception and so AM radio is the thing. There are Christian channels, all vilifying Hillary and all liberal positions. And then here are Rush and the rest of them pretending to not be religious, spouting the same hate.

Until this is addressed, we will not recover.

Ligyron

(7,617 posts)
45. and yet we control Hollywood pretty much
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:20 AM
Dec 2016

and shows on teevee seem to project a progressive viewpoint mostly.

Yet it's still rejected by large numbers at the voting booth.

George Carlin would have been great against Trump but dead people can only vote - not run apparently, lol.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
10. A lot of that stupidity is driven by the Reich Wing media . .
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:34 AM
Dec 2016

perhaps especially AM radio.

All that craziness did not just appear out of nowhere.

AM hate radio is the default programming all over rural Ohio, and it has turned my rural relatives from progressives to deplorables in about 25 years.

I really cannot believe that almost no one cites this as a major factor in HRC's loss.

If the Dem Party and Progressivism are to survive at all, they have to compete on that
playing field.

I'll kick in a check to start things off.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
20. Like the OP is saying, the average American voter doesn't
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 03:07 AM
Dec 2016

even listen to any political radio shows. They just don't care. If you are going to look at what RW radio fans do, you already are moving into semi political junkie territory.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
53. Respectfully disagree, Mr. Grey
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:11 PM
Dec 2016

Are you kidding me?

Rush has over 13 million listeners daily, including many many offices, shops, work sites, etc. I have seen them.

His poison has a major impact on mid-west political culture, which in turn greatly affects how people vote.

Very many of those whose vote was influenced by that fake Benghazi "news" got those lies from Rush.

PAX to you . .

Flatpicker

(894 posts)
11. Sadly this is pretty close to accurate.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:34 AM
Dec 2016

Though that does bring up the why spend all that money and time campaigning when the only real impact is from post convention to election day.

PatsFan87

(368 posts)
12. NanceGreggs brings up a lot of fair points as does Beyond Geography.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 01:39 AM
Dec 2016

A lot of people don't take the time to educate themselves on a candidate's specific policy plans. They get their information from word of mouth and the corporate media (who suck at "reporting" news, let's be real). If we know this is the case though, why would we have someone so controversial as our candidate? Why would we have someone who we know had low favorability and trustworthy numbers? We knew that would be extremely hard to turn around. I'm not saying it was fair, but the "watercooler chatter" at the office and the chat at sporting events was rarely about issues, it was about emails. We could never get to the real issues because that was the issue. Next time, we need to consider the candidate's possible controversies and pick someone who isn't damaged goods. It's tough to hear but it's being realistic.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
23. Why would we have someone "controversial" as our candidate?
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 03:58 AM
Dec 2016

Maybe because we thought she was the most qualified person for the job.

We really should have thought it through, and realized that being qualified should never override the wisdom spewed at the office watercooler.

Hey, next election, NO amateurs. Let's go with an abrasive idiot, because that's what's "in"!

PatsFan87

(368 posts)
28. It doesn't matter how qualified a candidate is when they're shrouded in controversy
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:56 AM
Dec 2016

and can't get elected to put those qualifications to use. I agree with Anthony Weiner on many issues and appreciate his passion when he was in Congress but am I going to run Anthony Weiner for a house seat? No. His opponent would have a field day and the attacks would write themselves. The emails have been beaten to death but you have to admit it was horrible optics to have our nominee being investigated by the FBI DURING THE ELECTION. Did we really think the corporate media, in the business of getting viewers and making money, was going to cover her tax plan instead? She could have easily said "you know what, I messed up with the server. For the good of the party, let me go through with the process of being investigated. I won't run this year. And if everything works out and when I put this behind me, I can run at a later date." But she didn't and she put all of us at risk. She supplied the rope to hang herself with and our party spent the general election trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, trying to get an establishment candidate elected in a change election. And now her qualifications are working fabulously for her while she's sitting in her living room in Chappaqua, insulated from many of the horrible policies that the rest of us will have to deal with under a President Trump.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
32. Yeah, I get your point.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:31 AM
Dec 2016

Maybe we should just ask the Republicans who they want us to nominate from here on, instead of running who WE want - qualifications for the job be damned!

And I can totally understand the "change election" thingy, because after eight years of Obama - stock market up, unemployment waaaay down, respect for the US restored around the world, the advancement of the rights of GLBTers, the country being saved from a depression, etc. - well, who wouldn't want a "change" from that?

PatsFan87

(368 posts)
34. Having a candidate who's actually electable is a good thing.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:32 AM
Dec 2016

I mean, isn't it the whole point? We don't need Republicans to choose somebody for us, we should be able to find a candidate who can actually win.

You won't get any argument here, President Obama has done a great job but we also have to acknowledge that a lot of people are still struggling. We need to do a better job of going into those depressed communities. How many liberal groups went out to speak to these people when their factories shut down and their jobs up and left? Simply showing up to listen and having a meaningful dialogue would do wonders. Van Jones said it perfectly. "We didn't go ask them for a date. Donald Trump shows up and takes them out and now we're mad."

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
57. Hillary won the popular vote ...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:12 PM
Dec 2016

... by a margin of millions - and still counting.

So how does that make her unelectable?

PatsFan87

(368 posts)
68. Because she didn't win.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:25 AM
Dec 2016

That's like saying I won this game of baseball using the rules of golf. It doesn't matter. All candidates knew the rules beforehand and played to win within these rules. Hillary failed.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
69. So Democrats should forget about the country ...
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 02:47 AM
Dec 2016

... and simply pander to those who live in the "right" states from now on?

That's like saying the team that won on a technicality is always better than the team that won on the basis of having played the better game.

I am amused by the "don't let the oligarchs win" posters who are now promoting the idea that a presidential election should be decided by a system that gives a handful of voters more power than the majority of voters.

Bettie

(16,076 posts)
18. 25+ Years of Marketing
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 02:47 AM
Dec 2016

Too many people have a visceral hatred of her for reasons they don't even really understand, but they've been told over and over that she's a bad and dishonest person.

It has nothing to do with her actions and everything to do with an opposition that recognized something they feared in her long ago and ensured that many people would have a negative view of her through constantly being told that they should.

There are people in their 30's who don't remember a time when the Clintons were not painted as "bad" or "dishonest" by the media and the opposition.

Marketing/propaganda...you can call it what you want, but if you repeat lies and unfounded stories often enough, people will develop the reaction you want from them, especially those who don't really pay a lot of attention. They hear "HRC is dishonest" and that is the message they keep.

Again, nothing at all to do with anything she's ever said or done, just an ongoing campaign.

world wide wally

(21,739 posts)
21. The last thing most voters heard about was from Comey
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 03:41 AM
Dec 2016

That combined with the Russian hackers and GOP controlled elections in most states is what happened.

RelativelyJones

(898 posts)
26. She should have visited, just visited, the Upper Midwest and PA
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:37 AM
Dec 2016

She barely did at all and it is a mystery as to why not. She would never have convinced the haters, but she would have rallied just enough to get over the thin margin by which she lost. She had to show up. She didn't. I will never understand how people paid to know better were so clueless. This from Slate is the best analysis I have seen so far as why she lost.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/12/the_myth_of_the_rust_belt_revolt.html

akbacchus_BC

(5,704 posts)
29. She thought she had their votes covered, bad mistake in hindsight!
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:58 AM
Dec 2016

SOS Clinton tried, I saw her campaigning on TV, there was never a person who sounded so sincere as she did.

The world will lost four years of having an idiot in the White House. Am just hoping that the Dems can run someone who can get that asshole out of the white house and make America great again before he took over.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
30. She should have ...
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:11 AM
Dec 2016

... visited each and every US citizen individually and made them all feel really, really special.

Instead she just represented ideals like embracing diversity, protecting the rights of all Americans, espousing ideas like affordable healthcare and affordable education, standing up for minorities, GLBTers, Muslims, immigrants, and being all qualified and all while she was at it.

Anyone who voted for Trump over Hillary because she didn't "visit" them is too stupid for words - but no doubt they'll all be happy with pResident Trump, who has their best interests at heart. No, really - and bigly!

RelativelyJones

(898 posts)
35. You still need to show up and rally the troops
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:40 AM
Dec 2016

It isn't the people who voted for Trump that lost her those states. They were never going to vote for her in a million years. It's the people who didn't show up. It is not enough to say "oh, they're just a bunch of lazy turds". She needed to be physically present. That is what campaigning is. And we are not talking about just whites here. Her numbers were down across the board. She ceded the ground to this idiot and put all her trust in the dumbass consultants.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
58. Sorry, but no.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:11 PM
Dec 2016

A presidential election always comes down to two choices: D or R. We know what the Democrats stand for, and we know what the Republicans stand for. Your vote affects not only you personally, but the entire nation.

In this election, the choice was between HRC and Trump. We know who they both are, their past histories, their vision for the country, etc.

Failing to be "rallied" to vote is a lame excuse for not doing so. It's a civic responsibility, not a popularity contest.

No one should need prodding, cajoling, or sweet-talking in order to vote. "She didn't show up where I live, so I'm not going to participate at all" is beyond stupid thinking.

Every eligible voter who chooses not to vote - for whatever reason - is responsible for who winds up being elected, because every non-vote is one less vote that the ultimate winner didn't have to overcome in order to be elected.
It's really as simple as that.

No one actually likes standing on line at the DMV to renew a driver's license - but they do it anyway, without having to be "rallied" by someone to do so. That's because there are consequences to driving without a license. How much more dire are the consequences of allowing someone like Trump to be running the entire country for the next four years - consequences that affect everyone, and not just the unlicensed driver?

I've no doubt that many, many voters who actually despise Hillary got off their asses, stood on line at a polling station, and voted for her anyway. Why? Because it was going to be either HRC or Trump in the WH, and they understood how important it was to keep him OUT of power, whether they liked Hillary or not. Oftentimes, casting a ballot is a vote AGAINST one candidate rather than FOR the other - and that serves a purpose as well.

By your logic, anyone who lives in a town, city, county - whatever - that Hillary didn't physically show up in has a built-in excuse not to vote. And it's a totally bullshit excuse.

I hope all of those who didn't vote are happy with pResident Trump - because by their inaction, they helped elect him.

Somehow I doubt that their "well, I didn't vote because she didn't campaign here" reasoning is going to be of much comfort in the days to come.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
60. Every campaign makes "mistakes".
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 12:48 AM
Dec 2016

But it's rather ludicrous to argue that those "mistakes" were fatal, in view of the fact that that campaign won the majority of voters.

RelativelyJones

(898 posts)
71. I agree.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 10:46 AM
Dec 2016

She won by far the most votes, but won't be president because of this idiotic system we have. Whatever mistake were made they were, in fact, fatal. The Blue Wall turned out to be BS and the Clinton campaign believed their own hype.

NRQ891

(217 posts)
44. according to this thread, what good would it do?
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:20 AM
Dec 2016

anyone who didn't already support her was too stupid and/or bigoted to understand anything she would say, plus, they were brainwashed sheep who had their minds made up for them by rightwing media

or as an alternative, they find the attitude in my previous statement offensive

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
51. The meme "But she should have campaigned in 'X' state" has been debunked
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:53 AM
Dec 2016

in other threads that listed all the stops she made in these states, for example here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2639615

spooky3

(34,407 posts)
65. Have you seen this list of all of her events in PA, WI, etc., during that time period?
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:34 AM
Dec 2016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2639615

Let's take a look at the facts rather than "analysis."

You and the Slate author should check it out.

akbacchus_BC

(5,704 posts)
27. Not only that, CNN and MSNBC had trump on tv 24 effing 7. Those two networks got trump elected,
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:48 AM
Dec 2016

they were not honest, they portrayed trump in glee when he insulted women, made fun of a disabled reporter, guess it was for ratings. Never gave SOS Clinton any coverage unless it was negative. As for Mr. Sanders, he only got coverage minimally when he spoke from the heart!

If I owned a network, I would cut off a person who was so tiring towards women, muslims, people of colour, but they kept on showcasing trump, nary anything about SOS Clinton. No wonder, trump is biting the idiots who fed him to the Presidency!

Trump election is a sad day for four years to the whole world. Now, he is associating himself to rogue world leaders. I truly hope that some republicans will have the decency to vote against him in the house and senate. Fools elected an asshole to run the most powerful country in the world. Enough said!

DFW

(54,302 posts)
39. I was in the States for a week in October, and I noticd that, too
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:21 AM
Dec 2016

My private off-the-cuff reaction was, WTF, are they trying to get Trump elected, or are they SO sure Hillary will win that they are playing Trump 24/7 for his entertainment value and to boost their ratings?

What they either forgot, or secretly knew, was that over 40% of the voters in our country ONLY make decisions based on what they have seen on TV during the last 20 days.

NRQ891

(217 posts)
42. I'm not sure I buy that
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:04 AM
Dec 2016

Having lived through Reagan, I remember both before and after, and the complete revisionism of him since, even among Democratic leadership.

But part of that Reagan revisionism, is that Margaret Thatcher the 'Iron Lady', was UK's Reagan counterpart and peer in staring down the Soviet Union. She is among many conservatives, worshiped as a strong leader almost as much as him

CK_John

(10,005 posts)
54. None ran for POTUS but it is the only way we will get a female POTUS is
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:40 PM
Dec 2016

have a female candidate on each party run at the same time.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
82. Another of your Magic Eight Ball prophecies, eh?
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 10:17 AM
Dec 2016

Another of your Magic Eight Ball prophecies, eh? Well, objective evidence supporting a premise is soooo boring and inconvenient...

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
56. that too, absolutely; the first one always has to be shot down, but never forget, she actually WON
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:28 PM
Dec 2016

the people and paved the way for the next woman.

 

Dems to Win

(2,161 posts)
37. Blue collar workers in the Rust Belt know Pres Clinton signed NAFTA and PNTR with China
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:51 AM
Dec 2016

It's part of the lore handed down to their children. The Clintons did us wrong, they shipped our jobs away.

We saw the result.



Nwgirl503

(406 posts)
38. Where's the standing ovation emoji?
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:25 AM
Dec 2016

Your analysis is spot on!!! More people need to understand this.

Until this realization sinks in, we don't stand a chance of figuring out how to combat them. You can't fight an enemy you can't (or won't) see. We need to "see" these people for what they are, and adjust our strategies accordingly.

IMO...these people? We have to treat like you would a child who refuses to eat their veggies, so you have to figure out a way to sneak the veggies in without them knowing it. "Yes, yes Billy...mommy knows how much you hate veggies and only like mac and cheese." As you serve little Billy a bowl full of pureed veggies disguised as mac and cheese. Or like when you hide a pill in a piece of bologna to get your dog to take its medicine.

That's what we need to figure out how to do.

NRQ891

(217 posts)
40. they can smell condecendsion, that's for sure
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:50 AM
Dec 2016

and I disagree completely with these statements:

"The truth is that when asked, the average voter isn’t quite sure that the Civil War actually happened, no less which side won.

despite the fact that the average voter can’t tell you who the president was on September 11, 2001.


They can tell you what movie won Best Picture in 1974, but they can’t tell you why Nixon resigned."


But you did touch on an issue that part of this party's message is 'if you don't support us, it's because you're too stupid to know what's best for you -or maybe it's because you're a racist. or more likely both'

people have a natural and healthy distrust of arrogance

and some of that was the candidate herself - speaking of Nixon, what if someone asked him if he erased the missing 18 minutes of tape and he replied 'what - with a pencil top?'

how do you think that might have come across to the public, and to young Hillary, who was part of the investigation?

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
46. K&R
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:29 AM
Dec 2016

Summed it up nicely.

We are in an era of information overload and most people (outside of the news/politics "junkies&quot have a huge filter on that is difficult to penetrate.

Ligyron

(7,617 posts)
49. Yes but those people at the water cooler or break room do listen to Political Junkies
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:41 AM
Dec 2016

who are RW hate radio listeners. That is how they are fed those beliefs even though they don't follow politics. One of their peers does and they always have a big mouth.

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
50. I work in an office like that
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:50 AM
Dec 2016

but fortunately most are anti-RW. And sadly in the case for some of them, if Obama "wasn't on the ballot", they weren't going to bother (although most wouldn't admit it but have admitted it during off-year elections).

It is a decades long/generational sentiment that goes back to the old euphemism - "They are all just 'the man' (government)", no matter what party.

But it is true that this is how the "non-political junkie" often finds out - via their co-workers or neighbors who ARE junkies. All you need is one or two. But then that just emphasizes the fact that they DO have a "filter" because they are unwilling or unable to find out what is really going on themselves versus going by the "local junkie". And that local junkie manages to penetrate the filter with brief but potent ideological utterances peppered with random soundbite talking points.

LisaM

(27,794 posts)
79. Wait....they wouldn't vote if Obama wasn't on the ballot?
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 09:36 AM
Dec 2016

They showed up twice to vote for him, but wouldn't give him a Congress to work with, or vote for a successor to continue his policies? I believe you that there are people like this but I don't get it.

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
83. Yup.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 11:57 AM
Dec 2016

And the statistic for this was the minuscule turnouts for the yearly elections after each of those Presidential elections. And the only time I might see an uptick is if there is a contested mayoral election (here in Philly that one is off-year from both Presidential and Congressional elections) and occasionally for gubernatorial elections (which do happen during Congressional cycle years here in PA). It's sad. At least for our last gubernatorial one in 2014, we were able to get a Democrat in but he is up in 2018 and we have to make sure we keep him in due to the 2020 census and redistricting.

The one thing I have noticed is that there is so much GOTV effort, media attention on local music stations and TV (and often drama) during Presidentials that is missing during other years, that it's as if people are "exhausted" and are ready to hibernate for the next 3 years. And so we suffer because those in the rural areas then dominate the governor's office and state legislature because the cities sit it out.... resulting in gerrymandering and being completely shut out from drawing the district lines.

LisaM

(27,794 posts)
85. In Seattle we have a lot of elections.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 12:30 PM
Dec 2016

The presidential was either the 5th or 6th one this year (including primaries).

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
89. Outside of ad hoc special elections
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 06:09 PM
Dec 2016

we generally have 2 elections a year here in PA - a primary and the general. And at least here in Philly, there are plenty of polling stations (each with 2 machines) - generally one within 6 - 10 blocks of a resident (total of about 1686 divisions/precincts).

I would expect that some of the problem is that the average citizen doesn't hear much from their elected representatives except before one of these elections where they are bombarded with ads and flyers, with an occasional postcard or newsletter about what they have done at other times. The one good thing about my current State Senator (who is in his first term) is that he holds regular (about once a month or 2 months) "Telephone Town Hall", where he'll discuss certain issues and field questions from constituents who are dialed in. I applaud this and have definitely felt more engaged by not only interacting with him but hearing from my neighbors and others in the senatorial district, including where they stand and/or are concerned about.

LisaM

(27,794 posts)
91. We have vote by mail only (I'm not a fan, actually)
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 06:26 PM
Dec 2016

and often the only heads up we get is when the ballot comes. A lot of these are school elections, and we don't have kids, so the parents may be better informed (I do vote yes on these). I don't miss even the smallest of elections, but we a turnout in the primary that was the lowest percentage since the Depression.

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
92. I thought I had seen that Washington State (and I think Oregon) had mail-in
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 07:10 PM
Dec 2016

I doubt they would put that in place here outside of what is available as part of the restrictive absentee balloting (that is mail-in). PAers are loathe to change. Democrats have tried at least 5 times (that I recently read) to propose early voting and other changes but alas...

Guess we gotta take it one day at a time.

LisaM

(27,794 posts)
93. Most people like it more than I do, but....
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 07:23 PM
Dec 2016

I see problems, not the least of which is that many ballots are spoiled with no time to fix it.

dawg

(10,621 posts)
48. The key states were so close that "political junkies" may well have made the difference this time.
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:33 AM
Dec 2016

Online voices like "The Young Turks" - relentless in their attacks on Senator Clinton - may have driven up third party votes, and more importantly, depressed Democratic turnout enough, to have swung the election.

BumRushDaShow

(128,527 posts)
52. Actually agree with this
Sat Dec 3, 2016, 11:00 AM
Dec 2016

which is an interesting sidebar to the above discussion about the impact of junkies on a populace.

The left has its junkies and for the masses who have their filters on, the junkies on both sides have the ability to inject the poison into the non-junkies since the non-junkies are unwilling or unable to examine the facts themselves (often because the facts are obfuscated and difficult to find).

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
63. Brilliant.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:11 AM
Dec 2016

I guess we should just appoint someone to cast their ballots for them, since they can't be trusted.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
66. It has absolutely nothing to do with trust.
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:42 AM
Dec 2016

We have to recognize that the average voter is not as caught up in politics as the average political junkie posting on DU, or other political websites.

To postulate that HRC lost votes because of something she said/did about Bill 2067-42.6 back in April 1995 is to pretend that the average voter even knew what that bill was about, no less based their vote on it when casting their ballot in a 2016 election.

Posts about how people didn't vote for Hillary because she "supported" the Iraq War are ludicrous, given that the average voter never even knew that.

It's not about people not being trusted - it's about the fact that the average voter is not as engaged in the political process as the average political website poster is.



marlakay

(11,432 posts)
67. A huge section of America is into reality shows
Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:48 AM
Dec 2016

Not my thing but when I see how many of them there are a bunch of people must be watching them.

Some of those like you said don't follow politics, they know who Hillary is but Trump was on their tv in a authoritative way in his show.

Who knows?

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
73. We had a primary candidate who was aggressively pulling in formerly disconnected voters
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 12:48 AM
Dec 2016

Last edited Tue Dec 13, 2016, 08:18 AM - Edit history (1)

Sanders candidate was tagged as "not a real democrat" and those brand new voters were tagged as fools and potential traitors. Unicorns and whatnot. Even after he conceded and started supporting and stumping for Clinton those new voters were still treated like trash.

The thing you're complaining about is a solvable problem, but the idiots who attacked and shoved away those voters have to be dealt with first. I'm not saying it's Hillary's fault. If she retires after this the problem will remain because it's not her; it's entrenched in the party leadership.

Press the party for new leadership, and oppose corruption and ineptitude especially when it's our own who are guilty. Otherwise 2018 will be more of the same.

Response to hellofromreddit (Reply #73)

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
88. And yet Hillary still got millions more votes than he did and handily won the GE by over 3 million
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 05:24 PM
Dec 2016

votes.

The bullshit framing that somehow Bernie would have won after losing to Clinton is ridiculous. Your argument sounds like you are saying the person who worked their ass off for the party for three decades creating coalitions and networks should have been pushed aside for someone who joined our party as a spoiler, painted a lifetime champion for women and children with the brush of establishment and created a lovely division amongst Democrats and lost by millions of votes. It wasn't the party leadership that was throwing tantrums and screaming "Lock him up!" and going on sexist tirades. That was those formerly disconnected voters you are talking about.

The lesson that you all keep ignoring, because it doesn't fit your narrative, is this:

"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble with not."

 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
94. What are you even talking about?
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 07:27 PM
Dec 2016
The bullshit framing that somehow Bernie would have won after losing to Clinton is ridiculous

I never said that. Feel free to look at the post again.

I'm happy to argue over what I've actually said.

I couldn't care less about your strawman.
 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
75. You are looking at the FUV as if it isn't a symptom of something systemic.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 07:48 AM
Dec 2016

While you are right, there's a lot of looking in the wrong places, I'd say looking at the product of our societal evolution is not the place to hone in on. The hands on the rudder of our spiraling nation, as much as there are any, should be where we focus, and I contend that one thing we absolutely can pin the election loss on, and so much other shit that has continued dumbing us down more than just civically, is our corporate media. (of course that's symptomatic too, but its closer to the mark.)

I know a counter to that would be that in the scheme of things, nobody watches or reads it, but I assure you, if something gets said on fox, eventually I'll be hearing it from people who never watch Fox, regurgitated to me as a matter of fact. And frankly, in some ways Fox is the least egregious. At least it wears its affiliation on its sleeve..."fair and balanced" slogan be damned.

The rest of our news is horrible, and that isn't just the way the cookie crumbled. It is horrible by design. It is horrible because the corps that own the media barely fund their actual journalism capabilities, and because everything is a third-rail issue when you have to appease the very same corporate advertisers that you would otherwise report on...to say nothing of needing to avoid anything to do with one's parent company or its interests, and you should probably stay away from the interests of dealings of other big corps who have a media wing, because your bosses probably don't want an arms race of . There are a lot of excuses for why good reporting can't get done in the main-stream, but the bottom line is, it can't get done because those who could make it happen, don't.

There's a reason why Thomas Carlyle said the fourth estate was the most important of all, and why Jefferson said “Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.” Because we need it for an informed electorate. We need it to prevent the excesses of gerrymandering and the disenfranchisement of voters, and the vandalism of curriculum in schools.

When the mainstream media is owned so wholly by a handful of mega-corporations, I would suggest that we aren't living in Jefferson's utopia anymore. Sure, people are free to report on anything they like...its a free country, but nobody has to help them be heard.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
76. she lost due to the electoral college
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 07:58 AM
Dec 2016

and the racists and misogynists of three to six states. The number of voters involved could fill a football stadium.

democrank

(11,085 posts)
77. I know very different "average voters" than the ones you described.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 09:27 AM
Dec 2016

The voters I know here in rural Vermont (some desperately poor), are well-informed, from all kinds of backgrounds, and with all kinds of political persuasions. I make it a point to talk with people from all walks of life, especially those with whom I disagree, because I always learn something from them.

If Democrats continue to view everyone who did not vote for Hillary as morons, racists, idiots, too stupid to know what's really going on, we're in big trouble. If we want to keep braying about how much better we are, how much smarter, how much more evolved, we're in big trouble.

Not all Trump voters are the same any more than all Hillary voters are the same. Some people vote strictly on which candidate is an R or a D. Some people vote on issues. Some people vote based on fear or anger, some on raw hope.

The Democratic cause is bigger than Hillary Clinton and the fact that she won the popular vote. Moving forward, we can not continue to support policies or candidates that result in the loss of the House, the Senate, governorships, and almost every state between the coasts. We have to listen and learn and stop pretending we know it all, because we don't.

The Democrats I know who did not vote for Hillary or just plain did not vote, felt their party left them long ago. Many of these folks were people who had worked hard for all kinds of social and economic issues in the past. They aren't ignorant and they aren't racists. They're simply fed up.

This air of superiority has to stop or Republicans will maintain control of everything again next time around. And, we should stop with this nonsense about how stupid and unplugged young people are. Rather than look down on them, we should give them reasons to stand with us.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
80. Simply fed up my ass.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 09:46 AM
Dec 2016

Let's not pretend that a bunch of fucking racists, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic assholes were just fed up with economic issues.

And no, let's not just move forward and pretend that our party left Democratic voters or that our message was off. Let's examine what kind of bullshit took place this election season and realize that the perfect can no longer be the enemy of the good or great. Seriously.

Not to mention this current desire for instant gratification and vindication is ridiculous. Folks can't have everything they want right this second. And they can't bern everything down because of it or we end up right where we fucking are today.

democrank

(11,085 posts)
84. I didnt use the word "all", since I prefer "some" or "many"
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 12:26 PM
Dec 2016

SOME Trump voters are not racists. SOME Trump voters are not sexists. SOME Trump voters are not homophobic. SOME voters were just plain fed up. SOME voters didn`t bother to vote.

You can ignore this `til the cows come home, but painting those who didn`t vote the same as you with such a broad brush won`t get our party anywhere. We`ll stay stuck with Republicans ruling the House, the Senate, governorships, and more than half the states. We can, and must do better than that.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
81. Nope. You can't dismiss the effect of three decades of right-wing mythology.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 10:12 AM
Dec 2016

The average voter doesn't know exactly what happened during the Bill Clinton presidency, nor at Benghazi, but s/he sure as hell knows that millions are outraged over these things. We may not be able to quantify the effect, but the billionaires didn't finance it for nothing. They paid for FUD, and they got it.

Exilednight

(9,359 posts)
87. I find it hard to believe, but I partially agree with you.
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 01:28 PM
Dec 2016

The campaign had two drastic flaws.

1. No 3 to 5 word message to sell their plan. Obama had "Main Street, not Wall Street" and Bill had "it's the economy, stupid". Hillary did not have that.

2. She was poor at turning allegations against her around so that Republicans looked stupid for dumb remarks. Bill was slammed with sexual allegations before he won his first election. Obama was called a Muslim traitor sympathizer, and both turned it around on Republicans.

In those regards it was a poorly run campaign. I do give her props for a sound policy and plan and adopting many liberal positions, but without the sales pitch it's a tough sell.

 

aidbo

(2,328 posts)
95. Hillary Clinton lost because people wanted an 'outsider' this election, and Hillary is perceived,..
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 07:47 PM
Dec 2016

..whether deservedly or not, as the ultimate Washington 'insider'.

This, of course, is just my opinion.

NeoConsSuck

(2,544 posts)
96. Were these same voters
Tue Dec 13, 2016, 09:30 PM
Dec 2016

just as stupid and uninformed when they voted in Obama twice?

Sorry, but they wanted to shake up Washington, Trump was going to drain the swamp and build a wall. How cool! He's one of us!

Trust me, these voters will have buyer's remorse in under six months.

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