2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumYou can't win elections if you don't grow up and stop hating voters
Yeah, yeah, Trump's just terrible. But this is a democracy and if the plan in the future is to grow the party enough to beat him and the party that produced him, then we'll have to win voters from his pool. Hating them does exactly the opposite, putting victory further out of reach.
The hatred for them has gotten way out of hand. Hillary's campaign really ginned that up, and it poisoned a lot of minds. I remember when the primary was still going, one of team Hillary's favorite insults was to accuse Bernie supporters of being the same as Trump supporters. And that's it--no attempt to explain why, just the assumption that it was self-evident that being compared to a Trump voter was the worst thing ever.
I work with and know tons of Trump voters, and while I think they're very wrong, I also know them well enough to know that they're not the cartoon monsters they're made out to be around here. They're actually pretty normal, and they'll respond to all the normal stuff the way normal people do. If you listen to what they complain about (by and large economic distress, bullshit like domestic spying, boondoggle military spending, and unresponsive government) and address it, they'll come over. If you mindlessly despise them, they'll stay beyond reach.
And I want to remind you of one of the most dishonest slurs thrown at Hillary: Breitbart and others tried to paint Hillary as racist because of her association with Senator Robert Byrd. In his youth, Byrd was as racist as they come--even started up a KKK chapter. But he got away from it and actually became one of the strongest civil rights advocates we've ever had by the time Hillary knew him. So, as his example shows, even among the worst people, there are still good ones. It takes a dishonest outfit like Breitbart to ignore that.
So, get over the campaign season brainwashing about deplorables and start treating people like people again if you intend to win anything more than pity.
Same goes for young voters who got turned off by the Hillary campaign or preferred to vote third-party. Painting them as lazy, stupid, and selfish guarantees that they'll ignore whatever else you might have to say. In the mean time, the republicans are endlessly talking up their potential as entrepreneurs and future leaders. Care to guess who's going to carry more sway with that group if nothing changes?
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blue cat
(2,415 posts)Will do.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)I detest racists and I detest Trump. Hope this helps.
ck4829
(35,042 posts)Is the fascist Flynn clan still connected to the Trump Administration?
Are they calling out Trump for attacking Hillary for speeches to Goldman Sachs but then turning around and bringing them into his future cabinet?
When their welfare does get cut, are they going to be mad at Trump and Republicans or are they going to jump through mental hoops and say it must be because immigrants are getting preferential treatment?
No, yes, no, and the latter?
I'm good then.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)They found that aspect of his campaign disgusting, but the other team has their own "lesser of two evils" arguments too.
What's your plan to overcome it?
Pholus
(4,062 posts)I damn near got whiplash from how my local Trumpettes pivoted from their planned rage filled revolution about rigged elections to suddenly demanding that we all "come together."
Nope, brother, the lesson of this election is that you can hate on everyone you want and if you game the system just right you don't even have to keep the majority of the people on your side.
In the end, Democrats do not need to overcome anything. They merely need to stick to their principles and heal the split between their center and progressive sides. That won't even be particularly hard.
Watching the Republicans formulate their plans to cut on the ACA, Social Security and Medicare make it obvious that any "Lesser of two evils" Trump voters will rapidly learn the folly behind their vote. First Trump voter to share a tale of economic woe with me will get my hearty congratulations about their electoral victory and giving a middle finger to the wall street elites. Heh.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)as dishonest and sleazy as the GOP otherwise we won't win another election
Pholus
(4,062 posts)I'd rather have Democrats willing to stand their ground over being "dishonest and sleazy" any day of the week.
Paladin
(28,246 posts)The Trump voters I know are a bunch of ignorant, racist shitheads, and they're no longer friends of mine. Hillary's popular vote margin is up around 3M now; we can afford to direct some hatred at those who deserve it.
MichMan
(11,901 posts)I doubt they all of a sudden just became that way, so why were you previously friends with them before they voted for Trump?
Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)and they may have voted for Trump without a great deal of thought. There are thousands of precincts that voted for Obama in 2008 and/or 2012 that voted for Trump, so there is absolutely a chance to flip some votes.
Granted, there are probably 30-35% of the population that are dead-Enders who wil
Never vote for a Democrat (especially a POC or a woman), but if you want a 2008-style election mandate, you need to bring swing voters onboard. And has PBO has shown us repeatedly, you don't have to mortgage your principles in order to win. Big.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I wish it did, and I'm all for eliminating the EC. But it's the current system, and those extra votes are worthless. We've been burned by that twice in recent memory.
We just got destroyed. Shape up or lose again.
ck4829
(35,042 posts)Or we can enable the cowards who attacked Yasmin Seweid and be literally destroyed.
Where were these wonderful beings of light and love when that girl got attacked? Oh right, cheering on Trump in his latest Twitter feud.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)They just don't discuss it with you.
Sid
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Seeing as you're apparently psychic.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Jean-Jacques Roussea
(475 posts)Their bile doesn't surface as easily? Next time wear a hijab and see.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Anyone else could ever. It's ridiculous.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)They mostly are fed up with jobs going off shore due to Trade because of the economic impact it has had on their lives.
Many of these people are DEMOCRATS, too. They have lined up and supported every other group for decades even if it was of no benefit to them. And now, because they were ignored for too long and voted for the other person one time those voters who got their support call them hateful names. It's disgusting on so many levels.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)save American industries from being sold off , like we did General Motors, even though Mitt Romney wants to let it die
we could offer to build new infrastructure, but in Florida, the governor just said no thanks
You could get 20 million of them more healthcare,
what did that do?
You see, I do know Trump voters are not all evil, but when you try to do things, you just get pounced on by the GOP who has gotten them to think that every other thing not solely directed to them is evil.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)I try to understand that they are mainly the weak minded, under-educated, who are more likely to fall for the RW propaganda spewed by Fox, Limpballs, Savage, Brietbart, Hannity and Jones. They continually play upon the fear and anger of these people to keep them so angry and afraid that they will believe the most bizarre crap and will not listen to reason. I c cannot hate these people, only feel sorry for them.
As far as the more educated Trump supporters, many still fall for the crap, but their primary reason is tax cuts. They are greedy, self-entitled assholes without empathy.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The truth is, a lot of Trump voters are, in fact, deplorable. The truth is, so-called "progressives" who sat out or voted third party because they thought there was no difference between incremental progress and drastic regress are, in fact, stupid and selfish.
I agree, a presidential nominee should go around saying those things. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that racists aren't racists and idiots aren't idiots.
Jean-Jacques Roussea
(475 posts)It's really silly how people say "he didn't call all mexicans rapists" but still think that what she did was label half the country as deplorable.
The true meanings are somewhere along the lines of:
HRC- The deplorable fringes of society are casting there lots behind Trump and you shouldn't want to be associated with them if you aren't deplorable.
Trump- The mexicans coming to America are rapists and criminals in the majority, but some are probably good people. (although in Trump's case he clearly just realized what he said and then added "but some aren't lol"
boston bean
(36,220 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)JI7
(89,244 posts)JI7
(89,244 posts)This defense if white bigots is disgusting.
Democrats are more likely to win over some who did not vote than those that voted trump.
MFM008
(19,804 posts)Moronic whiny ass bitches. Period.
I hate them and their traitorous fat maggot king.
Sorry (not) if that offends anyone.
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)
gopiscrap
(23,736 posts)They are not whining at the moment. In fact I've had to witness a few of them celebrating
Squinch
(50,935 posts)celebrating for very long.
Coventina
(27,093 posts)Buddhism is NOT about enabling evil.
Nobody voted for Trump that didn't know he was a racist and stood for a racist ideology.
That is completely unacceptable.
To put it in Buddhist terms: These people are attached to their own sense of superiority. They will defend that belief to the detriment of others. They are accumulating vast amounts of karmic debt by their actions, and if we condone it, we do the same.
SpareribSP
(325 posts)Coventina
(27,093 posts)It's laughable, really, when what she was doing was pointing out the hatred soaked campaign of Trump.
That is classic projection at its finest.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Coventina
(27,093 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Since you want to talk Buddha, here's a fun link: http://fakebuddhaquotes.com/fake-but-not-fake-the-art-of-storytelling/
Coventina
(27,093 posts)Buddhism.
I was merely pointing out that you are using His Holiness as your avatar, while not being mindful of what he stands for.
"Kindness is my religion" is one of his favorite sayings. Yet there is nothing kind in anything Trump stands for. The people who voted for him know this.
And yet, you accuse the Clinton campaign of hatred because they pointed this basic fact out.
You have everything about Buddhism twisted backwards.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I don't really care what you think of me.
I didn't say that people who voted for Trump aren't wrong. You made that up.
I did accuse the Clinton campaign of doing what they did, yes. She ran a negative campaign and that's how they work.
Now it's time to get over it and act like adults instead of angry children bent on revenge. "They did it too!" isn't an acceptable excuse; it will gain us no ground next election, and it won't help push back against some awful policy that'll be hitting the ground in the next few weeks.
Coventina
(27,093 posts)Another case of classic projection.
I was merely pointing out that you are clearly using the image of a man whose theology you know nothing about.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)No skin off your nose at all. Well, no fucking way.
we dint want or need them.
SpareribSP
(325 posts)"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."
People worry that if they don't hate Trump's racism then it'll become normalized in America. Hate of Trump in return is not what will combat hate, it will instead just continue to dehumanize and divide. That's a vicious cycle that's been repeated time and again. An opposition that isn't hateful is instead that much more strong.
Coventina
(27,093 posts)White churches vandalized?
People being fired for voting for Trump?
People being denied jobs for voting for Trump?
People being denied housing for voting for Trump?
People being made to sit in the back of buses for voting for Trump?
People being lynched for voting for Trump?
Where is all this hatred you and the OP seem to see expressed?
SpareribSP
(325 posts)Is a good example of hatred to start? Do you really believe there's no hatred at all coming from Democrats?
You can also just google and find things like http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/11/12/chicago-man-attacked-beaten-you-voted-trump-orig-vstop-dlewis.cnn pretty quickly, if you want examples of violence.
Coventina
(27,093 posts)You will find that there is no comparison between the alt-right and DU.
Is DU registered as a hate site?
How many Trump supporting sites are registered hate sites?
How many Clinton ones?
One side is promoting hate, and, it isn't us.
And, your CNN link is regarding a road rage incident. Just because bystanders said ignorant, hateful things, that was not the cause of the attack. Complete fail on that one.
TupperHappy
(166 posts)Yes, many more the other way around, several times in fact, but burying inconvenient facts allows Repugs to claim that SPLC are, at best, ignoring hatred directed towards people based on their politics, and at worst, to claim SPLC is just making it all up.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)synergie
(1,901 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)The best article I've read about how to deal with people moving forward: (follow link for a version with links intact)
http://charleseisenstein.net/hategriefandanewstory/
At such moments, it is a normal response to find someone to blame, as if identifying fault could restore the lost normality, and to lash out in anger. Hate and blame are convenient ways of making meaning out of a bewildering situation. Anyone who disputes the blame narrative may receive more hostility than the opponents themselves, as in wartime when pacifists are more reviled than the enemy.
Racism and misogyny are devastatingly real in this country, but to blame bigotry and sexism for voters’ repudiation of the Establishment is to deny the validity of their deep sense of betrayal and alienation. The vast majority of Trump voters were expressing extreme dissatisfaction with the system in the way most readily available to them. (See here, here, here, here) Millions of Obama voters voted for Trump (six states who went for Obama twice switched to Trump). Did they suddenly become racists in the last four years? The blame-the-racists (the fools, the yokels…) narrative generates a clear demarcation between good (us) and evil (them), but it does violence to the truth. It also obscures an important root of racism – anger displaced away from an oppressive system and its elites and onto other victims of that system. Finally, it employs the same dehumanization of the other that is the essence of racism and the precondition for war. Such is the cost of preserving a dying story. That is one reason why paroxysms of violence so often accompany a culture-defining story’s demise.
snip...
Even if the person you face IS a misogynist or bigot, ask, “Is this who they are, really?” Ask what confluence of circumstances, social, economic, and biographical, may have brought them there. You may still not know how to engage them, but at least you will not be on the warpath automatically. We hate what we fear, and we fear what we do not know. So let’s stop making our opponents invisible behind a caricature of evil.
We’ve got to stop acting out hate. I see no less of it in the liberal media than I do in the right-wing. It is just better disguised, hiding beneath pseudo-psychological epithets and dehumanizing ideological labels. Exercising it, we create more of it. What is beneath the hate? My acupuncturist Sarah Fields wrote to me, “Hate is just a bodyguard for grief. When people lose the hate, they are forced to deal with the pain beneath.”
more at link
SpareribSP
(325 posts)States these things in better ways than I possibly could.
UCmeNdc
(9,600 posts)It really does not add up ........ The Russians stole this election and Trump promised them a good deal if they will help him.
Docreed2003
(16,858 posts)Much of what you say is correct. The majority of Trump voters I know here in TN aren't overtly racist or bigots. These are average people who have been deluded by the 24/7 onslaught of Faux News and the guilt/indoctrination of the church, which in the Bible Belt tends to be evangelical and aligned with the GOP. As a party, we have a choice going forward. We can call anyone who voted for Trump a racist bigot, which will only serve to confirm every single predisposition most of these voters have about the left, or we can try to understand why exactly they voted for Trump in the first place. That being said, there is no doubt a vocal minority of Trump supporters from the alt-right who are viciously racist bigots, but I don't think, at least in my experience, the average Trump voter falls into that category. It's far past time for the leaders of the Democratic Party to get out of DC, stop paying lip service, and actually see what's going on in the worlds of the average American right now. That doesn't mean holding rally's and superficial acknowledgements...it means actually getting your hands dirty and going out and seeing first hand the plights of all Americans. It means understanding the struggles of the rust belt worker who's been out of work for years because of offshoring of jobs while at the same time understanding the struggle
of undocumented workers who are here below the radar, doing work that some wouldn't dare do, because their entire motivation is providing a better life for their children and family. The GOP certainly is not the party of the people, but the Dem party used to be, and still can be, if they are willing to do so.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)
Buckeye_Democrat
(14,853 posts)... she was seen as the "establishment" candidate who would cater to big money donors. Jeb Bush went down in flames for the same reason.
Was I dumb enough to believe Trump's campaign rhetoric about fighting the influence of big money, special interest groups in Washington? Of course not! He's clearly a lying, manipulative sociopath who only cares about himself!
Regardless of how I think, I'm willing to recognize that many Americans viewed him more favorably in that regard!
The evidence? HERE! Look at the chart about halfway down the page under the "Views of the candidates on the issues" heading. Trump was losing in that poll over immigration and he was only barely ahead on terrorism concerns. However, he held a whopping 20-point advantage over Clinton on the issue of "reducing special interest influence"!
http://www.people-press.org/2016/07/07/4-top-voting-issues-in-2016-election/
Is that an important issue to Americans? YES!
http://www.sightline.org/2016/10/05/poll-americans-feel-electeds-serve-big-interests-over-people-like-me/
Fully 93 percent of those surveyed believe that their elected officials listen to their big donors, rather than voters like them. Pew Research Center also found that 74 percent of US voters say elected officials “don’t care what people like me think,” and 76 percent think the the government is run by a few big interests.
People should also bear in mind that even the dumbest Americans understand the power of money. From the time they were small children and told "we can't afford that" to their present day, almost all Americans are exposed to money concerns on a regular basis. White privilege? Misogyny? There's a bunch of voters who will struggle to understand those concepts because they haven't experienced it! Money? That's something they understand!
If you think Democrats need to "simplify" their message to reach more voters, that's where you start! Make big money donors and powerful lobbyists more of a target, and the voters will come! The beauty of it is that there's no need to sacrifice core Democratic values to accomplish it!
SomethingNew
(279 posts)My old college roommate is a 30yo POC Obama voter and he supported Trump this cycle. For him it was all about poor/middle class economics. He grew up poor and working class. In his mind, Trump was the only candidate that was listening to and speaking about his concerns. To him, and I think to many Trump supporters, the American economy should be made to work first and foremost for the American working class. I think a lot of folks here would agree with that. Unfortunately, it leads him to some views I don't agree with (like needing to restrict immigration to protect the few jobs there are) but those are just details. If we listen to the main concern, it becomes possible to show a better way forward and the proper way to fix the problem.
Instead, this election we decided to simply "other" him and everyone like him. Every time he heard someone say that all Trump supporters are racist, he became more entrenched in his decision and convinced that the "costal eliets" don't care about him or his family since they aren't listening to what Trump supporters like him are actually saying.
Also, I just want to say (even though it will be unpopular) that I think many of these super racist Trump supporters that everyone suddenly knows are entirely made up. Everyone will deny it but I hope at least some take a good look at the damage they are contributing to by trying to get attention and be part of the broader DU narrative. However, even if you concede that more than half of Trump's supporters are racist (I don't), there are still millions of his supporters who aren't and should therefore be within reach.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Thanks for telling us about your friend.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Trump showed disdain for every single voting block.
unitedwethrive
(1,997 posts)
oasis
(49,370 posts)Squinch
(50,935 posts)First of all, Democrats don't hate voters. Democrats told voters the truth, offered workable plans, paid attention to what is hurting voters in all areas of the country. Republicans, on the other hand, treated voters like imbeciles. The imbeciles in the country rose to the challenge.
Second of all, no we don't have to turn Trump voters. Which is nice because there is no way to overcome the sexism and racism that goes into a Trump vote without losing the soul of the Democratic party. What we need to do is motivate those who did not come out to vote.
And third, if your "typical" Trump voting friends didn't vote like imbeciles, they would have a lot less to worry about.
The idea of the deplorables was not brainwashing. Trump's vocal supporters are patently deplorable.
Do I hate Trump voters? They have just made my life and the lives of everyone I know precarious, in terms of financial security, security from war, security from discrimination, security from unchecked bigotry, and security from loss of our Democratic systems. So do I hate them? Yep. Wholeheartedly. I know I'm going to get all the shit they have brought down on us, and I hope that shit falls doubly hard on them.
skylucy
(3,738 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 11, 2016, 01:45 AM - Edit history (1)
that Hillary's campaign ginned up hate. WTF? Anger, hatred, ignorance, bigotry,sexism, Putin and plenty of LIES won this for Trump and I refuse to give cover to the people who either voted (or DIDN'T vote)to set our country down this very frightening path.
Squinch
(50,935 posts)skylucy
(3,738 posts)Squinch
(50,935 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I am impressed!
....
OK! Well, you work on that. We need that kind of nonsense gone by next election season so that we win.
Squinch
(50,935 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)That says it ALL!
You can fight all kinds of things, but you can't fight The Stupid.
It's said that the poor will always be with us. That's not true - we have ways to eliminate poverty. But we have no way to eliminate The Stupid - they will always be with us, and they will take down the rest of us every time.
LonePirate
(13,414 posts)I don't buy those excuses for voting against Democrats at the national level but voting for Republicans at the state and local level, decade after decade.
I welcome any attempt to explain this completely irrational behavior on their part. If they are so displeased with how government treats them, why don't they switch up the elected officials who have the most impact on their lives?
Squinch
(50,935 posts)And MY economic distress is the result of THEIR VOTING CHOICES!
If they didn't vote like morons, I'd have a lot more respect for them.
calguy
(5,304 posts)Especially in the midterms. We get our ass handed to us every recent midterm election. That's how, when and where the R's gain the advantage to rig things their way, be it redistricting, voter suppression, what have you.
Until this changes the election results aren't going to change except for those times the R's mess up so bad even their own people reject them. This happened during W's second term and we took Congress. But what's happened since? Same old shut. People didn't show up to vote, we now have to live with the results.
Fla Dem
(23,637 posts)People who voted for him voted for
a sexual predator,
a racist
a misogynist
a fraud (Trump University to name just one)
a person who stiffs people who works for him
a person with ties to Russia and Putin
a person who for years tired to claim Barack Obama was not an American
a person who demeans handicap people
a person who broke decades of tradition and did not release his tax returns (will we ever see them?)
a person who is beholden to foreign countries because of loans
a person who incited violence against his opponent's supporters
And there is so much more. Anyone who voted for him did not vote for the good of my country. These people are incorrigible and I know some personally. Yes they act like normal people, but they have shown me their cold black hearts.
Forget about economics, their one most motivating reason for voting for Trump was "Make America WHITE again". They want immigration to stop, they want the Muslims out, they want brown people deported. We will never win THEM over. It will take a disastrous 4 years of the Trump administration to convince these people they made a horrendous mistake. Then, maybe then they will change their minds, but I really do not hold out any hope.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)the women, the poor, and every other imaginary scapegoat they can find, and they fell for a demagogue promoted by the media and the Russians.
You can't change bigots. They were raised that way.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)It's difficult turning a loss into something where we self-reflect. Particularly when we won the popular vote by such a wide margin. We inherently feel we're correct on how we perceive the world, correct on every issue. Like you I think we can benefit from self-reflection. Perhaps being open to listening to others. Not just preaching to the choir on things we feel are wrong.
We need to find ways to be inclusive while agreeing to disagree on some matters. Maybe not be so harsh on others. It's tough not to respond to what we view as tribalism with more tribalist behavior. But I feel that's how we retain our humanity. Maybe even win more local elections. Hating the 'sins' but not the potential voters.
Fla Dem
(23,637 posts)So we are just supposed to lick our wounds and say OK what issues do you want us to give up on; equal pay, the environment, taxing the rich, medicare, social security? When were Republicans ever conciliatory to Democratic Administrations? Mitch McConnell declaration to make President Obama a one term president, then blocking all his initiatives for the six years the Right had the majority in Congress? Or how about the impeachment of Bill Clinton, or the Benghazi/e-mail witch hunt of Hillary Clinton. Those certainly weren't actions of being inclusive and not being harsh.
Why is it that Democrats have to sit quiet in the corner and placate the Right Wing? It's time for our elected Democratic leaders to grow some balls and take a few pages from the Republican playbook.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)with potential voters. Not about the public demeanor of elected officials. I disagree with your assessment of President Obama. I believe he served our policies well being true to his nature. There's a wider range of behavior than either placating or chest-thumping. And I don't think republicans have bigger balls.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)This meme that we have to pander to racists and sexists is wrong.
Half of the population didn't bother to vote. That is literally tens of millions of potential voters we can get.
STOP blaming Democrats and Hillary Clinton for racists, sexists, and xenophobes who didn't vote for her.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I think you mean straw man. This straw man that we have to pander to racists and sexists is wrong. Because I never suggested such a thing. It's entirely possible (in fact, preferable) to oppose the worst of Trump's platform without letting yourself be blinded by hatred. Case in point: you've already been blinded enough to interfere with your reading just because I don't hate Trump voters enough. I'm not even one of them, but you're swept me up in your rage now.
If that sort of idiocy consumes the party it'll be generations before it gets sorted back out. Just look at every civil war ever.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)or the party. See how that works? 
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)But Trump proved otherwise
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)He tapped into people's hatred of "others" while never clearly nailing down who that really is, aside from foreigners, who by definition aren't voters. He left up filling in the blank to all of them. Some of them took it as blacks, some took it as homosexuals, etc. But Trump himself never nailed it down, leaving enough wiggle room in people's heads for those who did get labeled by some to tell themselves, "Well, that's surely not me." After all, Trump did quickly establish himself as a master of weasel words in this election.
You ever work around a clique of idiots? And when something goes sideways, the boss gets pissed, they all just assume it must be somebody else? Same sort of thing on a wider scale.
OTOH, the hateful in here (and the whole party) are being quite specific: anyone and everyone who voted for Trump is a piece of shit, and their votes are neither wanted nor needed. That leaves no wiggle room and just tosses out millions of potential (and even some former) party supporters. THAT will cost us more elections.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Tell us more about what a swell guy Trump is.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Deliberately conflating Islam with radical terrorism.
That's not oblique or indirect- it's directly hateful and bigoted. In addition he used violent rhetoric about physically harming people.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Clinton and Democrats already campaign on economics...to a far more substantial degree than Trump did. Trump spewed lies and vague gobbledygook. "We're looking at jobs--big league jobs." Um, okay.
Clinton campaigned on universal early childhood education, expansion of health insurance, 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave, generating "enough renewable energy to power every home in America, with half a billion solar panels installed by the end of Hillary’s first term," a substantial increase to the federal minimum wage, equal pay for women, debt-free and more affordable college, free community college, "a $25 billion fund will support historically black colleges and universities, Hispanic-serving institutions, and other minority-serving institutions," the development of new green industries, massive infrastructure investment, etc.
And Clinton won among the working class. If some (not all) white working class voters have much different expectations than the working class overall, it's not difficult to determine why.
Yes, there may be some Trump voters who were honestly taken in by a portion of his economic message so much so that they could overlook everything else or were somehow unaware of everything else (the long history of sexual assault, the long history of overt bigotry, the conspiracy theories he promotes, the Russia connection, his celebration of the housing collapse because he could profit off it, his stiffing the contractors/blue collar workers he hired over the years, his tax plan that helps the wealthiest and harms the working class, etc.). Well, good fucking luck reaching those folks.
There are also some who were just blinded by their hatred for Clinton, much of that hatred rooted in sexism and misogyny and a belief in the many lies spread about her through the decades.
And then there are a hell of a lot of people who voted based on racism, xenophobia and a twisted Christian supremacy.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)And THAT is how Trump won.
"Trump's position on trade seems to have been key to his victory in the Rust Belt states. Per CNN:
Half of Michigan's electorate feel trade takes away jobs, and these folks supported Trump by a 57% to 36% split. The 31% who think it creates jobs backed Clinton by a 65% to 31% margin.
In Ohio, 47% of voters say trade hurts workers, and they lined up for Trump by a more than 2-to-1 margin. The 46% who say it creates jobs or has no effect strongly backed Clinton.
And in Pennsylvania, 53% of the electorate agree that trade is bad for jobs. Some 62% supported Trump, while 34% backed Clinton. Among the 35% who feel trade is a job creator, Clinton was the favored candidate by more than a 2-to-1 margin.
In other words, free traders have a lot of work to do in order to win over the Rust Belt."
http://www.dailywire.com/news/10643/9-important-facts-final-exit-polls-aaron-bandler
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)and that business regulation, taxes, and environmental regulation take jobs away. Do you advocate the Democratic Party adopt those positions as well in order to satisfy those voters?
For the record, I'm not a proponent of NAFTA or TPP, but I am completely disgusted by the view that those white male rust belt voters matter more than the rest of Americans.
Remember those same voters supported Ronald Reagan and George W Bush. They are not reliable Democratic voters at all. The white male demographic overwhelmingly votes Republican and has since the Civil Rights Act.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)They, like every goddamned American Citizen has the God Given RIGHT to do, voted for the person they felt cared most about the issues most important to them, and especially people in northern states do NOT vote over race because racism is nowhere near as big an issue in those states.
It doesn't matter what is right or wrong. What matters is that Trump fed them a line of crap and they bought it hook, line and sinker because the other side was too damn busy saying why NOT to vote for Trump to tell them why they SHOULD vote for Hillary.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)The entire focus on them is about how they matter more, particularly when it's accompanied by arguments that the Democrats should stop focusing on "demographic wars" or "identity politics," which means the concerns of women, LGBT, and people of color. It's an assumption about the universality of the white male experience. There is without question an agenda by certain people to remake the Democratic Party in their image and in their interests.
If it doesn't matter what is right or wrong, why does the Democratic Party need to contort itself to appeal to them?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I'm really wondering this because so many people seem to think that caring about whether or not families are on the verge of homelessness and starving involves the Democratic Party contorting them-fucking-selves. It's NOT ABOUT THEM BEING WHITE for FUCKS SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's about them being goddamned POOR and SCARED of not having a roof over their kids' heads or food for them to eat. That's not a race issue that's a HUMAN issue! Those rural voters are sick and goddamned tired of not getting the help they need. Hillary didn't even come to their area for some of them and Trump promised them what they want and NEED...JOBS! How the flipping hell is jobs and relief from POVERTY not Democratic values?
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)They were key to Clinton's platform. She developed substantive policies about them. How is it that you cared so little you never bothered to read them?
That's the problem with this mantra. We have people who never informed themselves about Clinton's positions lecturing everyone about how the party should change. Rather than informing yourselves, you shout at those who did.
Those voters are not poor. Their incomes are above the national mean. Clinton won the poor overwhelmingly. Trump won incomes over $75k.
She didn't go there for the same reason she didn't go to California or Oregon. Polls showed her winning, so she focused on swing states. Now the political savants who never said a word at the time are outraged that she didn't know the polling was wrong and campaign where she lost.
So what we have is Monday morning quarterbacking by people who never bothered to as much as read her policy positions. Given that, it's hard to believe the concern has anything to do with policy because people who actually care about issues take the time to inform themselves. Most voters, however, don't vote on issues. They vote according to cultural affinity. For many, that means they assume a qualified woman is dishonest and don't care enough to look further. Democracy is not possible with such a citizenry, which is why we are undergoing a rise of authoritarian fascism. When people only care about rhetoric and not what politicians do, they choose leaders who give them nothing but empty promises and lies. People on the left and right alike resent Clinton for failing to do that.
This country didn't deserve Clinton, her expansive policy positions and respect for voters intelligence. It deserved an incompetent, pathological liar and panderer like Trump. The fault lies with citizens because ultimately it is their responsibility to inform themselves. Instead, They got the liar they wanted.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Trump stiffs the blue collar workers he hires. Trump wants to suppress wages even more. Trump is a billionaire out to help billionaires.
And Trump most certainly is not opposed to free trade, his anti-TPP and anti-NAFTA talk aside.
So, I guess the message is that Dems have to spew lies, too. And they have to be more appealing lies than the ones Trump and Republicans spew. And the Dems should drop that whole advocating for civil rights thing--it's so 1960s.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)time and time again we see these proclamations that are more about rhetoric, sometimes lies, than actually policy.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I grew up in rural New England and no, racism is not a huge deal there. In fact, you seldom see it at all.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Northern states such as Minnesota have had a large influx of immigrants, and suddenly there are conflicts.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)I'm sure they were all southerners up there for some lobster
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I'm over 50 years old and was born and raised in Maine. Not ONCE growing up or as an adult did I EVER see or hear of ANY KKK members or people who would approve of that kind of garbage.
I also looked it up...and it was in 1923. That parade and group was also not a group that was against blacks. It was a group that was anti-Catholic and opposed French Canadian and Irish immigrants. The state fought against the small group and within just 3 years it was rapidly on the decline. By the mid 1930's there were no more references to the KKK made in the state in the media anywhere.
So yeah...nice try to portray New England as being supportive of the KKK. That's complete and utter bullshit.
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)A district in Kentucky has gone for Democrats for 144 years. Most everyone in that district is registered Democrat. That district voted for Bill Clinton Twice and Obama twice. Guess what...it went for Trump. It went for him because he focuses on "the little people." He convinced them that he was for them on the economy and trade and jobs. Those issues are SO IMPORTANT to them and they are SO DESPERATE to just survive that they overlooked the negatives since Hillary did not convince them she was for them.
Yes, it IS that simple. Just because some of Trump's supporters ARE racists it does NOT mean that ALL of them are. To call them ALL racist is stereotyping and bigoted. These are DEMOCRATS that this party LOST. Those screeching "racists!" at all Trump voters need to dig their heads out of their rectums and face reality...Just pointing out that Trump sucked didn't point out what was GOOD about Hillary, so she lost. Her message was lost in all the nastiness. If people think the Democratic Party does not NEED these voters and swing voters like myself they have never been more wrong. If these attacks on voters do not stop this country is going to end up losing EVERYTHING because Dems will NEVER WIN control of anything ever again.
I have decided that I'm done listening to ANYTHING any poster here has to say about ANYTHING if they start in with the "They're all bigots" nonsense. If they refuse to even enter in a constructive dialogue and just keep posting the same tired old bullshit they are going on block/ignore. If they are not open to hearing any opinions other than their own then I'm not willing to even hear them out anymore.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)In Kentucky? They were lacking the racial resentment more than the great majority of Trump voters that wanted a wall and hated Obama?
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)That made him president elect...those ones.
I used the Kentucky district as an example because I was just watching a segment on CNN about it. That was an example of how an entire Democratic District that was blue for 144 years voted for Trump and they said it was because he was for the little guy.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The county to interview people. They know they're not going to get people to admit racism, and the story they are looking for is "how did the Dems fuck up". They don't want to talk about how ugly and bigoted the campaign was because they normalized that shit.
You haven't noticed how desperate they are to make that go away?
Response to NoGoodNamesLeft (Reply #78)
Post removed
NoGoodNamesLeft
(2,056 posts)I've tried explaining and even used my own elderly Aunts as examples of Trump voters who I KNOW are not racists and are some of the sweetest, most loving people you could meet. And then there was a pig pile attacking them and calling them ugly, hateful names. I have ALWAYS stood up for every marginalized group for my whole life. This experience and the way people are being so ugly I'm finding them I am beginning to not care anymore about standing up for others. That's why I began putting people on ignore. If you accuse people of being racists and bigots enough times when they aren't they stop giving two shits about your plight. I'm getting to that point.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)who because of Stockholm Syndrome voted for the wrong primary candidate.
But resenting people who voted to strip my rights, that's completely unreasonable.
It must be nice knowing those people have no power over your basic rights or personal safety. The rest of us aren't so lucky.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)>>So, get over the campaign season brainwashing about deplorables and start treating people like people again if you intend to win anything more than pity.
Absolutely. Stop feeling butt-hurt and start winning not whining. The ONLY thing that matters now is action, and part of that means tactically and strategically getting people to realize that trump is playing them and scamming them, and then offering an alternative that they can believe in. It's not that hard: the cabinet picks are impossible to ignore - but giving in to hating is only going to make them double down. Continuing to ignore that makes you part of the problem
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Without offering aid & comfort to them, but then they turn around & vote for politicians who see causing pain & suffering in the lives of their fellow human beings as a necessity and a point of honor.
Calling attention to such abject hypocrisy is not hatred.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Check out this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512649961
Now, nothing about my post says Trump voters have to be treated with kid gloves--they're voters, so they do bear responsibility. Tear right on into their idiot president, his corrupt cabinet, and the stupid policy that's certainly coming. But spewing childish, profanity-laden insult after insult after insult, and trying to poison every discussion with a demand that we ALSO hate Trump voters just as much or we're "deplorable lovers" or whatever, has to stop. It was pitiful, but now it's getting in the damn way.
I've got several posters in the thread up above just positive that they know my race/gender/etc. And surprise, surprise, it's a picture of the stereotypical Trump voter. So they're trying to "other" me and mark me as OK to beat up on. I personally don't care about it, but when that kind of stupid clique behavior is unleashed on voters in an election (it was in this one), it costs votes every time.
I'd really like to win the next election for a change.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Turning the other cheek too often just leaves you cheekless.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Thank you!!
resistance2016
(86 posts)I will NOT be nice to privileged, racist, sexist, homophobic balls of SHIT who live for no other reason than to cause as much suffering as possible. These people would NEVER lift a finger to help you, EVER. And yet you ask me to kiss their ass and thank them for it? No, fuck'em. Let them suffer the torture they've begged for for so many years and now will finally get.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Don't abuse people who have decades left in their voting careers. Who needs this?
The next national election is in 2018. Democrats have a much higher number of Senate seats open to defend than Republicans. We don't have four years to get our shit together.
To win elections you have to go and ask people for their votes, not disparage them.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)We've gotten along great for 10 years. I've even gotten him involved in our union and helping fight on contracts campaigns. He also thinks we are being over-run by immigrants and gets Eastern Europeans mixed up with Middle Easterners. I don't talk down to him--and we agree on bread and butter issues. It's just that he thinks it is all the fault of liberals and I do not. He is convinced and brainwashed by rw media.
He's perfectly normal until you mention Obamacare and then he says he wants to blow up cars when he sees an Obama sticker on someone's car.
Now, tell me what I am doing wrong.
betsuni
(25,455 posts)and complain about things that don't exist I'd go live with my mother-in-law.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)You hear a lot of "fuck Trump voters" and "We don't need them". Okay, fine, but we still lost the EC, even if by a hair. We still don't control, what, 33 statehouses? The idea that we don't need to do ANYTHING differently or even appeal to the slightest bit of a broader swath of people- I'm sorry, I don't follow that logic.
So okay, where do we get more voters? If you write off the Trump voters, who is left? I suggested in a similar thread that we go after the 3.5% that voted for GJ. The next biggest slice of the voter pie.
I don't know, no one seemed terribly interested in the suggestion. 
The GJ/Libertarian voters obviously have more in common with the GOP on the whole Ayn Rand economics thing, but something is keeping them from voting Republican.
To my mind, that something is a high degree of respect for individual liberty, personal freedom.
As progressives, we SHOULD be the party of ending the drug war, finally stopping the governmental conceit that it somehow has the right to tell consenting adults what they can do with their own bodies, etc. We should remind them that we oppose censorship, support choice in reproduction as well as all other aspects of how consenting adults choose to live their lives, marijuana legalization, respecting the bill of rights, issues like that.
But yes, insulting people is a piss-poor way to get them to vote for you. We should learn that lesson.
Hekate
(90,633 posts)You think "hatred" came from Hillary and "team Hillary"?
Don't think so.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,760 posts)He failed to grow up and stop hating voters, and he WON!
Orsino
(37,428 posts)The Republican Party has spent decades openly hating voters. Their suppression cuts both ways, blocking Republicans and Democrats from the polls, and robbing voters of important information that might sway an educated electorate.
If you mean that Democrats don't have the luxury of expressing that hatred openly, I agree completely. "Deplorable" was a stupid gaffe.