Newsflash: Bernie Sanders says Obama is the Worst President Ever

[Armstead]

Well, no. But the meme of the day is that he has suddenly chosen to run against President Obama, as a cynical political ploy.

That's because Sanders gave a straightforward assessment in saying that he believes the President did not sufficiently harness the popular movements to get things done after he took office.Sander said he will encourage people to work to support his agenda if elected.

Of course, one can agree or disagree with that ssessment. But please don't misrepresent what Sanders said, or why. He has always been honest in saying that he likes President Omaba and supports him on the things he agrees with, and criticizes things he disagrees with.

For example, this inflammatory anti-Obama quote from 2014:
http://www.politicususa.com/2014/03/04/bernie-sanders-praises-obamas-budget-cutting-social-security.html

"President Obama’s budget provides major investments on rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, expanding community health centers and improving the lives and educational opportunities of our children. It includes smart investments in pre-school education and job training. It calls for expanded tax credits for 13.5 million low-income workers. At a time when the wealthiest Americans are doing phenomenally well, it asks some of the richest people in the country to start paying their fair share of taxes. At a time when the country is still struggling to recover from a terrible recession, the president’s initiatives would benefit Vermonters and all Americans by improving the economy and creating of millions of decent-paying jobs.

As the founder of the Defending Social Security Caucus, I am especially proud that the president did not renew his proposal to cut Social Security benefits. With the middle class struggling and more people living in poverty than ever before, we cannot afford to make life even more difficult for seniors and some of the most vulnerable people in America.

As a member of the Senate Budget Committee, I look forward to working with my colleagues in the Senate to build on the many positive proposals in the president’s budget and address those areas where the president’s proposals fall short."

[djean111]

1. Don't you understand? Bernie, and the rest of us, must love EVERYTHING Obama does, or

he, and we, are haters. Oh, and if Hillary disagrees with Obama on anything at all, that, of course, is just the politics game.

[Stellar]

8. Maybe turn that around and say that we should agree with EVERYTHING 'Bernie' does, or

he, and we are haters and we must be Hillary supporters.

[djean111]

10. Usually, when there is a criticism of Bernie, it is met with either an explanation of

why it does not bother his supporters, or why his supporters may feel the same way, but are not purists or one-issue supporters. I don't think anyone "hates" Bernie, really, I think some just hate that he is running and has supporters that they feel should rightfully be supporting Hillary. Makes 'em touchy or something.

[Stellar]

18. Just so you know, I really don't hate Bernie either...

I kind of like him, but still looking for a candidate to support. Maybe I'm just a little touchy too.

[Bubzer]

65. Well, the good news is there are some great choices available to you!

Though you may have to deal with some in-fighting if you pick one of the top two favorites.

[sabrina 1]

21. How about everyone just sticks to the ISSUES then people can decide who is best on those issues.

As a Bernie supporter, mainly BECAUSE of his long history of being RIGHT on the major issues of his time in elected office, I have no problem with that, because he is and always has been one of the very best on almost every issue.

But Hillary supporters seem to feel that if the facts are told about, say Bernie V Hillary on the Welfare Reform Bill, that is 'bashing' Hillary.

How is presenting someone's record on the issues 'bashing' them?

[Bubzer]

24. +1

Right! Whenever a Hillary supporter presents an issue that isn't couched in snark or derision, I generally make a good-faith attempt to look into what they've found. Cause if there really is an issue with Bernie, it's better to know about it up front so it can be addressed as needed... rather than find out later through GoP attacks.

[djean111]

26. Don't go using logic. I think that labeling any criticism as hating or bashing or smears was

decided upon very early in the process.

[senz]

58. Don't forget sexism. Criticism of HC is always sexist. nt

[Orrex]

87. That's a lovely and unrealistic sentiment

First, it's not going to happen this time around, because it has never happened, and there's no indication that it will change in the next 14 months.

Second, "the ISSUES" are hardly the only relevant points in choosing a candidate. In very real terms, electability is far more important than where a candidate stands on the issues. More specifically, the public's perception of electability will drive the elections more predictably then this or that candidate's vote on whatever issue. This has been political reality for more than a century, and there's no indication that it will change in the next 14 months.

But Hillary supporters seem to feel that if the facts are told about, say Bernie V Hillary on the Welfare Reform Bill, that is 'bashing' Hillary.

That's a straw man, and it works in both directions. For instance, if it's pointed out that Bernie has never won an election with more votes than 1/6 the population of Philadelphia, or that he has only won weakly contested elections among a demographically uniform constituency in the famously left-leaning "northeast," or that he has limited nationwide name recognition, this is dismissed as bashing because it ignores "the issues."

How is presenting someone's record on the issues 'bashing' them?

Obviously, it's "bashing" them if it's presented in a way that suggests impropriety where there is none, or if the information is presented out of context to create a false impression of the target, or it's presented in a way that omits relevant facts that justify the person's record.

[frylock]

89. Remember how "electable" we were told John Kerry would be?

Seemed pretty important at the time, as I recall.

[Orrex]

102. I recall him being compared to a wooden statue

And dismissed as a wind-surfing elitist.


Also, if someone suggests that Sanders isn't the most electable candidate, then more often than not the objection is dismissed as proof of a "fear" of Bernie. That's a petty and nonsensical insult with no supporting evidence. It's wishful thinking by the passionate supporters of the longshot candidate.


Hey, I've said repeatedly that I like Sanders and what he has to say, and I will happily vote for him if he miraculously wins the primary. Can Sanders' passionate supporters commit to an equivalent statement about Clinton?

[sabrina 1]

105. There goes the old 'conventional wisdom' again. 'Electability'. What exactly IS that? Voters decide

who is electable and who is not. PUNDITS have been SO wrong SO many times with their 'electability' garbage, I'm remembering TWO 'electable' candidates who were supposed be the ones to beat Bush the lesser, which was why we couldn't choose the ones we WANTED, both of whom LOST, and then the one who WAS NOT 'electable' who actually WON

I think it's past time to drop all these 'inside the beltway' terms and the lingo, which in my living memory has NEVER been proven to be RIGHT.

I'll go with the ISSUES that the American people want their candidates to have a good record on.

Haven't you noticed? We are no longer LISTENING to those inside the DC bubble, we don't care about their 'expert' opinions. We DID that, it didn't work, not for a majority of Americans.

So, not to be impolite or anything, but they can take their 'expert' opinions somewhere else, maybe somewhere where no one knows them, but We the VOTERS are making the decisions this time.

Two months ago those 'experts' predicted Bernie was going to fade 'in a few weeks'. We KNEW they were wrong because we had no intention of letting that happen.

Bernie has been elected far more times than Hillary, who had such an easy state to run in, Dems, even the worst of them, win in NY Senate races. I am in NY, I supported her, but that was before I knew how she would be on some of the major issues she would be asked to make a decision about.

Now we know, Bernie otoh, has always been right on the issues and has a long, ELECTED record to show that.

[Orrex]

119. No one has put forth a convincing claim that Sanders can win

Polling, as I'm sure you'll agree, is largely meaningless at this stage, so this or that happy poll doesn't mean Sanders can win. Even if we accept the polls, Biden is showing very strong against Sanders, so...

Also, your point about Bush beating the more "electable" candidates is meaningless. Those elections were demonstrably stolen, so they have no bearing here.

Moreover, I never heard anyone seriously declare that Sanders would wash out in a few weeks, at least no one of consequence. You are mocking a prediction that no one made, so your point is unpersuasive.

Sanders has no history of broad electoral success among people of color, so we can make no firm statements about his chance there, except to say that he's only ever secured the votes of an almost purely white electorate. He still has little name recognition among the general electorate, except maybe as "that Socialist from Maine or wherever," so he'd have to overcome his near-anonymity. Contrast that with Cruz, Bush or god forbid Trump. Perhaps Sanders could tout all of the legislation he's introduced and gotten passed over the years? How many bills is that, exactly? Or is that "bashing him?"

You can sing and shout about his years of successful elections, but so what? He's won in the second smallest elecorate in the country against weak opponents. The difference between the winning and losing totals in Philadelphia's mayoral race exceeds the total number of votes Sanders has won, so you're trying to hang his general electability on a preposterously weak point.

Go on, though. Insist that electability is irrelevant. I'll see you back here when we're all howling about Trump's four Conservative SCOTUS nominees.

[sabrina 1]

123. Sanders has never lost a Presidential race. Hillary has. Enough said, if you want to talk about

electoral success on a broad national basis.

Polls mattered here for over a year when every week we saw polls showing Hillary at 80% or more and now she has sunk to as low as 38% in some polls.

So now they don't matter!! They mattered a lot not so long ago.

They matter in the sense that Bernie was an unknown, zero name recognition, while Hillary's was as high as anyone can get, just 3 months ago.

He is still virtually unknown to half the country and has presented a serious challenge to the Front Runner, because as soon as people, White, Black learn about him, they are almost instantly on board, and across the political spectrum, across ethnic lines.

His ONLY problem was and is Name Recognition, and every day his army of volunteers, growing each day, Black, White, Latino, Native American, are working on that.

On the issues, he has the greatest advantage, and now it's making sure everyone gets to know about him and we are making sure of that.

And yes, the 'experts' did say that Bernie 'won't be able to sustain interest in his campaign beyond the initial excitement'. And we saw it right here on DU also.

There are no such thing as 'experts' on PEOPLE. Clearly they've wrong about Bernie every step of the way so far and they are still wrong.

They are so out of touch with the people, they simply don't get it. But the PEOPLE do, White, Black, and every citizen who has suffered from the policies of the status quo over the past few decades.

Doesn't bother me, I'm kind of glad they are so out of it, it's been kind of amusing to watch them try all the old tricks and they still can't stop this from happening.

[Orrex]

126. If you think that name recognition is his only problem, then you haven't been paying attention.

Sanders has never lost a Presidential race. Hillary has. Enough said, if you want to talk about electoral success on a broad national basis.

Seriously? That's all you've got? Perhaps you're forgetting that she was defeated by the man who became one of the most successful and consequential presidents in modern history despite a harshly antagonistic GOP Congress. That's hardly a defeat to be ashamed of, and she's had years of foreign policy experience since then. Sanders, in sharp contrast, has continued to represent a tiny constituency in a tiny state with minimal national attention and zero national scrutiny.

Seriously? Is this the first election cycle you've watched?

If by some miracle Sanders wins the primary, he will be attacked for:

1. Being a Socialist
2. Being out of touch
3. Being from the far northeast
4. Being too old
5. Being Jewish
6. Never having won a seriously contested election
7. Never having been tested in front of a non-tiny electorate
8. Having an anemic record of getting his sponsored bills passed
9. Having zero foreign policy experience
10. Being anti-business
11. Having a "Scandanavian" mindset (i.e., un-American)
12. Having minimal military credibility
and so on.

I accept that you don't want to believe this, and if you're like most Sanders supporters I've heard, you'll insist again that the election is about "the issues" as if that's ever been true in your lifetime or mine.

What will you do if Sanders doesn't win? How will you explain his defeat? Will you vote for the candidate who defeats him?

[sabrina 1]

127. Lol, those are all the reasons WHY he is SURGING. Like I said, anyone who thinks those

negatives, are so out of touch with the people, they don't really bother me and they certainly aren't stopping Bernie's consistent rise in the polls, nor will they stop him from winning. The PEOPLE are deciding, more and more each day.

He is the easiest candidate I have ever tried to 'sell' to voters. Even non-voters, sick of the system, have been excited and now are signing up as Dems to vote for him, when I tell them about him, including all those 'negatives' you just listed. Socialism is POPULAR, see Europe, and the old Cold Warriors are dinosaurs in today's world, a part of a bad part of our history and no longer relevant.

[Orrex]

128. Surging. We'll see.

Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Like most Sanders supporters I've heard, you simply ignore questions that you don't like or can't answer, and you convince yourself that rallies in Liberal-friendly states are proof that Sanders will take the Whitehouse in Nov 16.

We'll see.

I'll vote for him if he wins the primary. What will you do if he loses?

[cali]

23. except the op said nothing of the sort, nor is there a cadre of bernie

supporters running around saying anything of.the sort, whereas there are number of Hillary supporters falsely claiming that Bernie is maliciously slamming Obama and running against him. And there most certainly are Obama supporters who consider any criticism of Obama to be heresy.

[Capn Sunshine]

107. exception being Cornell West

Professor West is notorious for his ongoing and vitriolic criticisms of the President. Many Obama supporters are not OK with the tone and tenor of his discussion.

[Armstead]

32. It's not whether one agrees or disagrees

It's HOW one agrees or disagrees....and more importantly, not misrepresenting what a candidate says or does that matters (to me anyway)

[JDPriestly]

42. So far, I agree with everything, EVERYTHING Bernie has said on the issues.

That is why I support him.

I volunteer for him, and that is the response I get from the many, many people who, without my telling them about Bernie tell me he is their candidate. (I'm in California.)

We just agree with Bernie. That is why we support him.

It is about the issues. We also like him as a person, but for me especially, that is secondary.

Can't think of an issue that Bernie has mentioned on which I disagree with his stance.

Bernie and I and a lot of other people just match in our views on the issues.

That's why I rode three trains and stood for over an hour to see Bernie speak when he was in Los Angeles.

That's why I sing his praises on DU so much of the time.

I want to do what I can to get Bernie elected. For once we can have a president who is wise, humble, kind, has American values and asks the right questions.

I want that once in my life. I am 72. This is the last chance to get rid of the dominance of money in our elections. Bernie wants publicly funded campaigns.

[eridani]

131. Even the F-35?

I don't like that vote, but I think someone pointed out that not everyone in Vermont can make a living by making ice cream.

[Bubzer]

22. hillary supporters like to dismiss Bernie supporters as buying into GoP talking points...

or as being GoP-lite. Even saw one person suggest Bernie supporters were the spawn of liberals being brain-washed by fox news. Some pretty offensive comments. But then, to be fair, there's no shortage of mud-slinging between Bernie and hillary supporters.

[senz]

48. The most oligarchic Dem representing ultimate "liberal/progressive" values

while the Democratic Socialist is accused of channeling the GOP. Getting into "big lie" territory there...

Perhaps they should be humored and excused? Not taken seriously?

[Bubzer]

62. If it were just one instance of it, I'd ignore it. Sadly, it's not an uncommon occurrence

[Nitram]

53. Bubzer, you're painting 'hilary supporters' with a very wide brush

Maybe 0.5% of Hilary supporters dismiss Bernie supporters as buying into GoP talking points...

[Bubzer]

60. Perhaps you're right and that brush is too broad.

However, a considerably higher percentage of the "vocal" ones fit under that description... to include at least one Hillary-group moderator. You say a greater portion of Hillary supporters that don't agree with those of your 0.5%, but I've not seen a single person provide any rebuke for what they've said.

[Nitram]

132. I'm afraid that is true off the more vocal supporters on both sides.

Enthusiastic partisans sometimes lose perspective.

[Bubzer]

133. Very true. Objectivity gets lost... then the most demeaning and politically expediant attacks happen

It would be nice to have those outliers back to reasonable discussion rather than these displays of ugliness.
Some even treat it like a game, where a person who out-wits another is somehow winning. Except no one wins when the conversation is turned off.

[billhicks76]

57. I Agree...Most Agree Obama Blew It

He flip flopped on many of his candidate positions and tried to play footsie with the Rethuglicans. He gave up the fight early with excuses of Republican filibusters. But he could have used the Bully Pulpit like Reagan did and taken his case straight to the American People. WHY DIDN'T HE??? Trump exploit TV...it's really his only ally. Why not Obama? My personal opinion is that he was threatened with something. With what I don't know...but something. You don't just flip flop on telecom immunity and suddenly appoint all lobbyists to regulatory positions after campaigning on the opposite.

[PatrickforO]

67. I have often thought some power people representing the oligarchs and MIC

Sat down with Obama shortly after his election and told him what would and would not be tolerated. I don't know and have no proof, but I know what I see and I know this would not surprise me a bit.

[billhicks76]

129. It's Obvious

Obamas newly appointed DEA head is all over FOX saying cannabis has no medical benefit. That lie is so outrageous it would be laughable except children are dying from seizures it treats. Whole families have moved out West just to treat their kids properly. The people who should be arrested are the ones preventing this...the ones who won't allow it for cancer treatment. All peer reviewed studies 100% show tumor shrinkage. There is reason cannabis smokers have the same incidence of lung cancer as those who just breathe air. The gall of these liars is astounding. The genie is out of the bottle.

[senz]

70. I don't think he totally blew it.

There are so many reasons -- what he inherited from his predecessors; his relative inexperience resulting in over-reliance on experienced advisers, often from the Clinton admin (logical enough), and an underestimation of the sheer evil of his Republican opponents; his vision of himself as a peace-making bridge between right and left; the ubiquitous pressures from the REAL power-holders, i.e., the oligarchs (from whence the threat would arise), the cowardliness of congressional Dems worried about $ for reelection, the wall of righwing media demonizing every single thing about the man. It doesn't matter what he says if the MSM won't report on it.

And he DID take his case to the American people, over and over -- saying things like, "I can't do this without you," and "tell your representatives," and something like "make me do it," etc.

I do agree that he was subjected to pressures we never heard about and, yes, most likely a threat or two. I smelled "threat" all over his desperation to get TPP passed. I've even wondered if it had to do with his family. The oligarchs, the would-be world dominators (WTO, NAFTA, TPP, etc.) are ethically very much like the Mafia.

He didn't have Bernie's lifelong lack of illusions about how this country is run. Bernie is a realist with a deep vision of how things should be in a democratic republic; Obama is a pragmatist with aspirations in the right direction. But he did accomplish some things and he's trying to accomplish a few more before leaving office. You can almost feel him straining at the bit. He is not a total sell-out. Could you have done better? I don't think I could have, given all those circumstances (very hypothetical here, as I could never function in any public position, way too introverted).

[Enthusiast]

112. They might be indistinguishable from the Mafia behind the scene.

They certainly do not have our best interests in mind. And our interests are the legitimate reason for their existence.

[PatrickforO]

130. Very well written!

And you're quite right. I could never have done better and probably would have done much worse.

[billhicks76]

135. Like Obama...Well Spoken But

We shall know them not by their words but by their deeds. Otherwise it's just trickery. And the willing gullible want to believe so bad that they will swallow anything just to not be depressed.

[senz]

136. Are you implying that my comment was "well spoken" but

my "deeds" are somehow the opposite? Are you accusing me of "trickery?" As you write, "Like Obama?"

You don't even know me. You know nothing about my "deeds." This is just a message board, and all I did was give my opinion on Obama's performance as president. My opinion is based on what I know of how the government and politics work in real life. You are certainly entitled to your own, different opinion. It's okay to disagree.

Skepticism is fine and can lead to logical, reality-based conclusions. Paranoia, otoh, usually leads to a dysfunctional blind alley. Best to avoid the latter.

[billhicks76]

139. Wow...Defensive Much

No I wasn't referring to you at all. Why would I? I was talking about Obama? Who's the paranoid one now?

[senz]

145. Nah, not defensive, just annoyed. Don't worry about it. nt

[billhicks76]

140. Easy There

It was a compliment. The only part I was making a parallel to you was the well written part. I guess I could see how you might misread that though.

[beam me up scottie]

142. senz has been treated less than cordially by some because they're a newbie who supports Bernie.

I think that's why they're defensive and I would be too.

[senz]

143. Thanks, bmus. I didn't mean to sound defensive; just wanted to cut through the illogic.

Billhicks76 was comparing me to his opinion of Obama (well spoken but full of trickery, etc.), after having blamed Obama for all that O. couldn't/didn't accomplish without giving any indication that he understood the constitutional and situational constraints on the presidency. I've run into people with that mindset since the 2000 presidential campaign when they were pinning their hopes on Ralph Nader. I find their inability to understand/admit complexity makes it harder to actually solve the problems we face. It annoys me that they share my values while their locked-in mindset prevents us from getting where we need to go (e.g. the 2000 election.)

One of the wonderful things about Bernie is that he understands all of this right from the get-go. He has said that he can't do what he wants to do without a lot of help from the people, and he makes clear that we need to repeal Citizens United and enact campaign finance reform and voting rights as a start (I could add others like breaking up the media monopoly).

You are incredibly sweet to come to my defense on this small issue. You are a fabulous warrior person, valiantly countering the lies/tricks that emanate from "the opposition" around here, as well as a staunch defender of your online friends. When I read your parrying with certain people, it's like watching a fencing match, and it's especially rewarding because you are always the one to finally land your sabre in the victory spot. You must have been blessed at birth by one of the ancient warrior goddesses like Athena or Diana -- which are the only two I can think of right now (and Diana was more of a huntress than a warrior, but she loved nature and animals and knew how to use a bow and arrow.) So...thanks.

[beam me up scottie]

144. You certainly don't need the help!

You are doing just fine on your own, my friend.

And thank you for the compliment, you make me blush.

[billhicks76]

147. Missing The Point

That argument is erroneous. Sounds good but its really baseless. Like I said in comments below it comes down to be willing to fight or not. Making excuses is horrible given the consequences of these actions...this is the real world like you correctly state...and in the real world you fight back. Obama NEVER went to the American People using the bully pulpit on TV like Reagan did. Reagan had a hostile Democratic majority in Congress to deal with so he went around them and gave HUGE speeches on TV calling them out. Obama actually defended NSA spying, TPP, appointing ALL lobbyists to regulatory positions, prosecuting whistleblowers, bombing people in foreign countries, supporting the Honduran coup and other tragedies. Its not that he fought and lost...he wasnt fighting and when he did it was within strict confines he's careful not to cross.

[billhicks76]

148. And Bernie Fight Like Hell

Of course he understands how messed up the system is and how the Republicans are stacking the deck but he has never used that as an excuse not to fight...in fact it makes him fight harder. There is no comparison with Obama and even worse Hillary. Somehow Obama got pressured into absorbing the Clinton apparatus into his administration early on and who knows maybe he doesnt want to get Wellstoned and end up like JFK, RFK and MLK.

[senz]

149. Of course you must realize that Bernie,

with his openly democratic socialist, anti-oligarch, revolutionary views and intentions, is walking straight into the sights of a whole lot of guns, and he is smart and aware enough to know it. It is quite possible that he will be martyred before this is all over. And knowing that, I admire him so much it just takes my breath away. He is an amazingly courageous man. He is simply a different kind of person from Obama. Not that Obama is a bad person; he's just cut from a different cloth -- plus, he has two young daughters whom he obviously loves very much.

Bernie is taking this risk for all of us.

[billhicks76]

150. Word.

[billhicks76]

134. No No No

That case he took was vague and meaningless. Saying it's not just him but the people who need to lead is an empty phrase when he's fighting to keep NSA spying on people and fighting to put lobbyists in regulatory positions. Words are worthless when actions are the opposite.

[senz]

137. You seem to think the POTUS can do anything he wants.

The president is not a dictator. He does not rule. Structurally, he is restrained or at times made impotent by the Congress. As president, he has little control over business, and in an oligarchy, this means the very wealthy and/or corporate powerful can use their ability to steer the nation and the world as a means of forcing the president's hand. With Citizens United, they can also threaten to bury him politically. And as we both suspect, behind-the-scenes threats, even blackmail, are also a factor.

There is also the matter of politics -- the mood of the nation. It is entirely possible that Obama fears another terrorist attack on his watch, or being depicted as weak on defense, and so believes he must keep up NSA, etc.

It's way more complicated than you seem to allow.

[billhicks76]

141. Old, Stale Argument

To say hey he's powerless is a cop out big time. He could've taken his case to the American People like Reagan did countless times. That was with an anti-Reagan Democratic Congressional majority. It's called using the Bully Pulpit to out the opposition. Obama purposely didn't do that for some UNKNOWN reason. Many have speculated that he was threatened...not by a Republican majority which is absurd on it's face. My bet is it was the military contractor industry and the people who really run the show. You don't really think that Congress or the President runs everything do you? You've already admitted that the executive is neutered. The national security establishment has run everything since the early 60s or maybe even forever. Seriously...take a deeper look and stop making excuses. We live in strangely perilous times and excuses don't help.

[SonderWoman]

2. Obama uses too many drones, Bernie will use just the right amount!

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/08/30/427026/assassination-drone-program

And he also suggested a primary against Obama in 2012.

[Armstead]

5. Yes he did, and yes he did

He suggested a primary to encourage a discussion of issues during an election. He knew Obama would obviously win, but he said it would be helpful to at least discuss issues in an election....Quaint notion that.

He also said that we have been too aggressive and indiscriminate in our use of drones,(which tend to non-selectively kill large numbers of people, including innocent bystanders). But he pragmatically said that on a limited carefully targeted basis they can be a useful weapon. Many people agree with that......So now he's criticized as looking at things too pragmatically?

[AtomicKitten]

15. Bill Clinton urged Hillary to run against Pres Obama in 2012.

They always forget that when they lob that grenade and then wonder why it's a dud.

[BlueCaliDem]

59. Bull. That's hearsay and, consequently, widely reported by Right-wing sites and papers.

Including the NEW YORK POST. You know? Murdoch's rightwing rag? And it's a baseless accusation and RW-gossip propagated by a known liar, Newsweek (also a RW-rag) Editor, Ed Klein.

The allegations come in a new biography of Obama, The Amateur, written by Edward Klein, the former New York Times Magazine and Newsweek editor. Klein relates a conversation that supposedly took place at Bill Clinton's New York home last August during a gathering of long-time friends.

*** SNIP ***

Klein insists the conversation is factually sound, stating that he interviewed two guests present at the meeting. However, Bill Clinton's spokesman has called the allegations "totally and completely false" and branded Klein a "known liar". White House spokesman Eric Schultz has said "nobody in their right mind" would believe the accusations.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/us-election-2012/46878/bill-clinton-told-hillary-run-against-president-obama

So the question is, AtomicKitten, why do you?

And since when does Murdoch's New York Post and Newsweek's Editor, Ed Klein, have any credibility here at Democratic Underground?

HOWEVER, Bernie Sanders - although not brave enough to volunteer himself - has publicly called to primary President Obama in 2012. That's going to win over the Obama Coalition and that Black vote that he desperately needs for sure!

[Cali_Democrat]

64. Where are you getting your information from? nt

[Bubzer]

69. Here's a source... not sure if it was the one referenced.

Just posting for informational purposes. I don't know the article's truthfulness or the author's credibility.
In fact, I don't know much about that situation at all. I'd be interested in learning more though.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/us-election-2012/46878/bill-clinton-told-hillary-run-against-president-obama

[Cali_Democrat]

71. "The allegations come in a new biography of Obama, The Amateur, written by Edward Klein"

Who is Ed Klein?

He's the same guy who said Chelsea Clinton was conceived after Bill raped Hillary:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/06/29/five-reasons-the-media-shouldnt-trust-discredit/199925

[Bubzer]

76. Looks like he's a tabloidist... so not the most credible of sources.

Edward Klein (born 1937) is an American author, tabloid writer[1] and gossip columnist [2] who has written about the Kennedys, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and Michelle Obama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Klein

Though to be fair, I'm not sure of the original source.

[AtomicKitten]

77. While we're impugning sources, Media Matters is an arm of the Clinton campaign. Just sayin'.

David Brock, founder of the pro-Clinton groups American Bridge, Correct the Record and Media Matters

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/07/17/david-brock-key-hillary-clinton-ally-to-work-more-closely-with-her-campaign/

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/fundraising/242697-clinton-loyalists-gain-power-at-super-pac

[Cali_Democrat]

80. So the source for your allegation is Ed Klein?

The allegation:

Star Member AtomicKitten (43,531 posts)
15. Bill Clinton urged Hillary to run against Pres Obama in 2012.

They always forget that when they lob that grenade and then wonder why it's a dud.

Your source is Ed Klein? Am I understanding that correctly?

[AtomicKitten]

81. don't forget Bill Clinton once told Ted Kennedy that Obama would have been getting them coffee

The animosity Bill Clinton holds for Obama is legendary. So, yes, I believe this reporting.

[Bubzer]

82. Well that's unfortunate.

Mr. Brock, who was a critic of Mrs. Clinton in the 1990s, has become one of her favorite defenders in the last 10 years. She is said to put a premium on loyalty, but his abilities as a fund-raiser have also become a valued asset.

A little fox-guarding the hen-house action.

[AtomicKitten]

88. good imagery

David Brock, founder of the pro-Clinton groups American Bridge, Correct the Record and Media Matters

[randome]

28. Canada recently killed some civilians with a drone.

It's not as easy as you think. If you believe Obama is not being as careful as possible using drones, you have not been paying attention. Neither has Sanders.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

44. Actually, it's quite the opposite. If you think Obama is being careful at all using drones

you have not been paying attention. If you think signature strikes, killing unknown people based on patterns, is being careful you are an idiot. If you think double taps, killing the first people on scene after an initial drone strike, is being careful you are an idiot. Throughout Obama's presidency he has been dropping bombs in areas that they know have women and children because they believe there is a terrorist in the area. They know the drone strikes will kill innocent people and do it anyways. That is not careful. Quite your bullshit. Stop trying to defend the murder of innocent people.

[randome]

101. He's not being as careful as you think he should.

But neither you nor I are military experts. I'm not necessarily defending the use of drones, only saying that Obama is clearly not a bloodthirsty warrior.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Armstead]

103. No he isn't bloodthirsty

But they're not great weapons to use in an area with a lot of people who could be made really mad at us by indiscriminate bombs. We should be very careful in that.

[DesMoinesDem]

104. So you go from "If you believe Obama is not being as careful as possible using drones, you have not

been paying attention" to "I'm only saying that Obama is clearly not a bloodthirsty warrior". That is quite the huge jump you just made there. Way to move those goalposts, buddy. Obama isn't being careful at all when it comes to drone strikes. He knows innocent people will die and he uses them anyway. That's calculated, not careful.

[Armstead]

12. And you might want to read your links before posting-- Iranian media?

"Press TV takes revolutionary steps as the first Iranian international news network, broadcasting in English on a round-the-clock basis. Our global Tehran-based headquarters is staffed with outstanding Iranian and foreign media professionals.Press TV is extensively networked with bureaus located in the world's most strategic cities."

And if you're trying to defend President Obama from Bernie's scurrilous attacks, that headline does not exactly put Obama's policies in a good light either. I thought todays mission was to protect the President

"US presidential candidate: I would continue assassination drone program"

And from that article...

"The aerial attacks were initiated by former US President George W. Bush but have been escalated under President Barack Obama.

Former US drone operator Brandon Bryant, who was involved in the killing of more than 1600 people, revealed earlier this year that aerial strikes are conducted with complete uncertainty.

Bryant, who worked for almost five years in America's secret drone program bombing targets in Afghanistan and other countries, such as Pakistan and Iraq, said operators lacked visibility and were not sure about the identity of the people they were shooting at.

“We see silhouette, shadows of people, and we kill those shadows,” he said.

[beam me up scottie]

14. Doesn't surprise me, she dug up an old Republican ad calling Bernie a pedophile protector too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251549982

[senz]

46. A fair barometer of Hillary's status at any given time.

When HC is tanking, certain commenters go somewhat bonkers. One can almost smell the desperation. I find it a tad unseemly.

[beam me up scottie]

47. And someone just called Bernie's supporters "unhinged".

You're right about the correlation between how well Bernie's doing and the level of desperation among certain HC supporters.

It's like a Bernie barometer.

[senz]

49. Which shows how afraid they are of him.

Yes, it does highlight his strength. But for me, it highlights something weirder: a supporter-candidate dynamic that can most politely be described as unhealthy. If/when HRC loses, it's going to be insane around here. Probably insane at Clinton HQ as well. Makes me shudder (wimp.)

[beam me up scottie]

50. It's funny some if her biggest cheerleaders hated her in 2008.

It's been a strange primary season so far.

[senz]

54. Wow.

Maybe it's just who they are and how they operate. You're fortunate to have been around DU long enough to see these developments. I just assumed they were longstanding PUMA types, and it sounds like I was wrong.

Somebody should write the DU story. They could give its history, interview the key players, analyze the culture, show how it changed over time, and give tons of funny, sad, shocking, interesting examples taken from the threads. And come to some kind of conclusion. Could be a good read.

[Hydra]

124. It's not as interesting as you think

We have a lot of great people here, and we had more years ago before they got chased off or outright banned. On the other hand, we have some very prolific trolls and paid propagandists here to disrupt things and to float trial balloons...and a few oddballs that are still here and some not.

I still find this the most useful place to know what's going on both on the ground and what TPTB would like us to be thinking. I thought I would be one of the banned ones, but still here and still digging for the truth

[kenfrequed]

86. True

Or if there is a particularly good Bernie event or if he suddenly starts making headway there is a furious amount of energy spent here attacking Bernie on guns, or attacking him for not registering as a Democrat, or attacking his supporters for some reason or another.

[Bubzer]

72. Wow! Thats pretty bad!

[beam me up scottie]

78. The Republican who paid for it is a convicted felon.

SonderWoman may have no problem with those kinds of attack ads but they don't work well in Vermont.

[Bubzer]

79. They wont work well in my state either.

[Bubzer]

31. I noticed that too. Not just Iranian media...but IRIB which has a moinopoly on media outlets there.

[azurnoir]

13. going to PressTV for anti-Bernie stuff? has it really come to that?

well I won't argue

SonderWoman
2. Obama uses too many drones, Bernie will use just the right amount!
View profile
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/08/30/427026/assassination-drone-program

And he also suggested a primary against Obama in 2012.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251580131#post13

[sabrina 1]

25. Why would you object to a primary of ANY elected official? I have no objection to the democratic

process being played out even with incumbent presidents, including those I think are doing a good job. IF they are then they will beat their primary challengers and the country will be the better for it.

I don't GET this sudden objection from the Left to the Dem process. What is your objection to a primary challenge where issues can be talked about and NO politician can think s/he has some RIGHT not to be challenged?

See how PUSHING Obama from the Left forced him to forget the horrible Chained CPI, at least for now, and to remove SS from the Deficit 'table' where it NEVER belonged since it had ZERO to do with the Deficit.

Thank the gods we the people are still ABLE to do things like that when we unite and FIGHT against them.


Bernie was instrumental in that fight and it was a shame he had to fight a Dem on SS, that was a first in my memory.

[arcane1]

29. It's not treason to suggest a primary. Hell I probably suggested it too!

I think my rep and senators could use a primary challenge too!

[BlueCaliDem]

63. No. Not treason at all. Just political suicide in this case. Sanders needs the Black vote.

Without it, he can't win the primaries.

But African-Americans don't trust him. African Americans overwhelmingly love President Obama. In case you're not aware, President Obama has risen to MLK status. Don't forget, he got 93 percent of the Black vote in 2012 - and a far larger turnout than in 2008. Thanks to the Black vote, President Obama overcame his losses with the White vote. What does that tell us?

It tells us it's not going to look good for Sanders. You don't bite the hands that can make or break your chances at winning nationally. Sanders stepped into this one BIG TIME, and you can bet this is going the rounds amongst the African-American community.

[arcane1]

75. I can't keep up. When are we allowed to consider AA's a single unit, and when are they all people?

And what IDIOT thinks Sanders wanted a primary because Obama was black? I can easily see the Clinton camp making that absurd insinuation, but who is stupid enough to fall for it?

[Autumn]

108. One of our AA hosts in the Bernie group has taken a break from DU because he was told he wasn't

black enough because he supports Bernie Sanders.

[arcane1]

110. Just when I thought I'd heard it all

[Autumn]

111. Brother Ivan, another AA supporter of Bernie has taken a break also.

It was just to toxic for them to be here at this time. Their voices are missed.

[Bubzer]

30. Do you have a better source?

Press TV is a Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting affiliate. IRIB is not exactly the best source for information.

[virtualobserver]

3. Bernie isn't even attacking Hillary, and they have him "lying" about President Obama

their memes conflict with one another as well.

Meme #27 states that Bernie is so great and his supporters are horrible,
but in this meme Bernie is himself the villain.

[Armstead]

6. ya kind of need a scorecard....or a calculator

[Bubzer]

33. Or both, in my case

[Armstead]

38. Or an abacus

[Bubzer]

40. Toes and fingers? Yeah.

[sabrina 1]

27. They can't get him on the issues, so they will try whatever they can. He is so good on the issues,

and has the record to prove it, that they are digging really deep for SOMETHING, ANYTHING to try to 'get him' with. How sad it is really that they care so little about this country they are willing to try to stop one of the best candidates ever from working for the PEOPLE.

[Bubzer]

35. Its the poo-flinging-monkey routine. See somthing you don't like? Fling poo at it!!!

[beam me up scottie]

4. Consider the source.

Obama would be ashamed of the people who manufactured today's daily outrage against Bernie.

[dorkzilla]

7. The same people who were outraged

...when we expressed disappointment over the TPP, his Goldman Sachs employees, the fact that he didn’t give the heave to lobbyists when he promised he would etc. in spite of the fact that we were behind the President on 90% of all the other things he was doing/trying to do.

BAD DEMOCRATS! BAD!!!!!

[beam me up scottie]

9. Traitor! Bad Democrat!

How dare you hold Obama to the same standard as other elected officials!

[Bubzer]

36. Now get in your volvo and chant "Obama is the anointed one" untill you feel better!

[beam me up scottie]

39. I will drive to the BOG and pledge my undying loyalty upon the altar.

Anything less will get you banned.

[Bubzer]

43. lol

[Doctor_J]

11. Proving beyond a doubt that Bernie is a racist

as we knew all along anyway...

These scatter gun attempts at smearing Bernie are getting pretty desperate.

[arcane1]

84. The Clinton Crew will continue to incite racial animosity if that is what it takes.

It's how they roll.

[frylock]

90. It's funny how the focus has shifted from #BLM to Latinos..

after #BLMs confrontation with Clinton.

[Hydra]

125. The Clinton team forgot to fly Marissa to the event

Too bad that never happened

[hootinholler]

16. Well I thought it was a ploy to substitute Obama for Hillary

So it looks like Obama supporters are bashing Bernie instead of camp weathervane.

Either way, it's so transparent.

[DanTex]

17. Well, he did call for Obama to be primaried. Of course, that was before he decided that he needed

the Democratic Party in order to run for president.

[Armstead]

19. Yes he did...He hoped that altrnative views would get into the election

He also knew full well that Obama's re-nomination was a foregone conclusion.

He was not trying to scuttle the president. He just observed that it would be nice if there were an airing of issues in the run up to the general election. Last I checked, ideas and debate are what democracy is supposed to be about.

[sadoldgirl]

20. If a newly elected POTUS, who is a Dem,

admits on CNN that he is a kind of 80ties Republican,
then you cannot blame people for being upset. Many
of us felt duped, and were proven right in many
decisions Obama made. So blame the voters for that,
not Bernie. Did the POTUS make good calls? Yes, in
some ways he did, but in many he did not.

Looking at the first cabinet selections in 09 showed
clearly whose side he was on. The dismissal of EW's
criticism of the TPP was the last striking sign of his
believes.

Bernie's words about Obama show the reality. Could
Bernie get the people behind him for specific
purposes? He hopes so, and so do I, but it depends
on us, the voters to get engaged for the long term.

[JDPriestly]

34. Bernie supports Obama's pollicy with the Iran agreement.

Bernie does not support Obama's policy on the TPP.

I agree with Bernie.

He speaks for me -- especially on the chained CPI.

Most Americans below the age of Social Security eligibility have no idea how little it pays a senior to survive each month.

Here is the average monthly payment for retired Social Security recipients:

$ 1,335.97.

http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/

That is the equivalent of about 184 hours of work at $7.25 per hour. It is about $8.34 per hour for each hour of 4 weeks of 40 each. So it is around $1.09 more than the federal minimum wage -- not an enormous amount of money in many areas of the country.

You cannot begin to live on that if you are paying rent each month in Los Angeles. If you can pay just a few hundred dollars a month for rent, you can make it.

And since $1,335.97 is the average, we know that many people who receive Social Security's retirement benefits after working their whole lives and paying into the fund, receive much less than minimum wage.

The chained CPI would, I believe, have been especially harmful for older women. On average, spouses of retired workers received on $682.04 per month in benefits. In my generation and of those older than I am, those recipients are mostly women.

http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/

We women, statistics indicate, are more likely to live longer than men and the chained CPI would have reduced the value of our benefits as we aged, as we increasingly lived alone and as we became increasingly impaired in terms of movement, the ability to shop where we wish and as we needed more and more costly help and medical care.

The chained CPI was a terrible idea. I'm with Bernie on being pleased that Obama decided to drop the idea. May it never return.

Better to audit the military and look for waste there than to leave helpless, unemployable older people and other dependent people to live on far too little to survive.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. Obama campaigned to the left to get the votes, got everyone ready for change

and the second he took office, took a sharp right turn. Two words: Rahm Emmanuel. And it was downhill from there. Bernie absolutely spoke the truth.

[SoapBox]

56. +1000

Yup.

Go Bernie!

[Armstead]

99. Yep, exactly

Obama had the potential for an FDR moment, but he went the Bill Clinton route

[PowerToThePeople]

106. Bingo

[Bonobo]

120. It's the stone cold truth, Le Taz... nt

[Maven]

121. correct.

[cheapdate]

41. Very good post. But boy, the responses took a wrong turn quickly.

Bernie Sanders is a collegial, intelligent, reasonable, respectful, realistic leader. He's very passionate about the issues that are important to him, but he rarely lets his passion degrade the working relationships with his colleagues that are essential to consensus government.

[Bubzer]

45. +1

Good traits to internalize!

[senz]

51. Have listened to Bernie once a week for years -- NEVER a disrespectul word about Obama.

I always got the impression that he genuinely likes Obama and sympathizes with his predicament in trying to accomplish anything within our oligarch-soaked political system.

Those who are trying to stir up conflict between Bernie and Barack are no better than rightwing pundits who pit the American people against one another.

[GitRDun]

52. I hate these threads because I like Bernie

This statement is the one I quarrel with (possibly you and..) Bernie on:

That's because Sanders gave a straightforward assessment in saying that he believes the President did not sufficiently harness the popular movements to get things done after he took office.

Bernie pulled single payer because he didn't have the votes to pass it. Bernie "did not sufficiently harness the popular movements to get things (single payer) done". So to criticize the President over this is incorrect and bad 2016 campaign strategy.

There's plenty of things to criticize the President on. Not being able to get 60 votes in the Senate on many things just isn't one of them.

[uponit7771]

74. ********DING DING DING******** +! When Sanders fails it's something totally different...

... I'm starting to see 3 fingers point back at Sanders

[Bubzer]

91. I dont see this as fingers pointing at Sanders.

Perhaps the disparity in what the OP is saying and the article linked...but not Sanders.

[uponit7771]

93. Unnn, the poster typed Sanders failed to get single payer in VT... there weren't enough votes so

... is Sanders going to apply the same criticism to himself as he's applied to Obama's failures in regards to policy?!

I don't see that...

I'm seeing someone who doesn't like the status quo so punch at the nearest person...

Whenever I hear more criticism levied at a dem pol vs people who are activily trying to stop others from voting in elections I have to get my FUD meter out

[Bubzer]

96. Well, there's a problem with the premise of the argument.

The article at the link, doesn't have Bernie criticizing Obama.

The closest he gets is part of the last line:

"I look forward to working with my colleagues in the Senate to build on the many positive proposals in the president’s budget and address those areas where the president’s proposals fall short."

Not really criticism.

As for Single-payer in VT., that's an issue with the state Governor, rather than Senator Sanders:

But reality hit last month. Governor Peter Shumlin released a financial report that showed the cost of the program would nearly double the size of the state’s budget in the first year alone and require large tax increases for residents and businesses. Shumlin, a Democrat and long-time single-payer advocate, said he would not seek funding for the law, effectively tabling the program called Green Mountain Care.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/01/25/costs-derail-vermont-single-payer-health-plan/VTAEZFGpWvTen0QFahW0pO/story.html

[Armstead]

98. Dingding,ding -- he's one of many senators

Different role.

[Armstead]

97. He was asked a question and answered it honestly

And I agree with him.

First, Sanders is one Senator, and can't do anything if the rest of Congress is too timid or corrupt to support something like a version of single payer or even a public option. (Not all Democrats in Congress. Some others were on board, but they got skunked by Obama and the "centrists.&quot

As for his comments on Obama...

Obama runs hot and cold on this matter of harnessing public opinion, and listening to the base. Sometimes, he's great. Other times, not so much.

He made me so angry in the Healthcare processs by totally shutting out advocates of any form of single payer, and he threw the "public option" -- which was a COMPROMISE -- to the wolves. Instead, he was more concerned with placating Big Insurers and Big Pharma and Joe Lieberman, and blew an opportunity to at least start to move towards giving people the choice of public insurance, instead of forcing us into the overpriced crap of the for-profit insurance monopolies.

My belief is that if Obama and the Democrats in Congress had actually supported and actively campaigned for at least a public option, and explained it to people to counter the right wing lies about it, we cold have gotten a lot better....(and to head off, but Joe Liberman, I think many would have preferred to wait a year or two and seed the ground for it if necessary.)

[GitRDun]

114. I hear you and pretty much agree with you

My only point is that Bernie was a part of that Congress that failed us, along with the President in terms of leadership on health care.

I think it's bad form to criticize one person in a group if you were also a part of the group that failed. Bernie could have taken it to the streets too..he just didn't.

Maybe the difference between us is the other things the President did to water down reform. Like you, I see those as a failing, but that isn't what Bernie was criticizing him for.

[Armstead]

116. Sanders was one among the group who pushed for a public option, then....

when it was clear that wasn't going to happen, he held onto his vote as a bargaining chip to force Obama to include funding for community health clinics. Under the circumstances, that was an effective thing to do.

The failure of the public option was not Sanders failure alone. It was a systemic failure of the whole Democratic party, IMO.... I felt really sorry, for Tom Harkin, who went out on a limb to push for the public option, and held on to his faith that it would be included until the end, when he was forced to retreat.

(I'm not sure what you mean by "the other things the President did to water down reform." )

[GitRDun]

118. I meant the critiques you mentioned in your posts

Good discussion, thanks!

[Fawke Em]

55. This is ALL I saw on Twitter Monday.

It's ludicrous, of course, but hard to argue a valid point in 140 characters or less.

Of course, if you deep dived into many of those complaining about it, they were all Hillary supporters.

However, since you've posted this here, I may Tweet it.

[Uncle Joe]

61. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Armstead.

[Major Nikon]

66. This just in: Obama just said Bernie's mom wears combat boots

[Armstead]

95. Click bait -- Guillty as charged. But to refute a bullshit meme, not sell ads

[Cali_Democrat]

68. Bernie and his supporters better tread carefully when it comes to President Obama

I just saw the video posted by BooScout.

Obama is still very popular with African Americans and liberal Dems. He has an 84% and 86% approval rating from them respectively. Bernie cannot win without these folks and they like Obama very much.

Attacking Obama is strategy doomed to failure.

[uponit7771]

73. Sanders is tying himself to Cornell West, it's already started... this isn't going to end well if

... the tone deafness keeps up

[Armstead]

94. You just made my point

He is not "attacking" President Obama.

Neither Obama, African Americans or liberal Dems (of which many are Bernie supporters) are fragile flowers that can't handle a little bit of straightforward honesty.

Sandders is not going ou there with a hammer in his hand saying "Obama is Horrible."

[Doctor_J]

100. Thanks for reminding me why I won't be voting for Clinton

"Don't criticize the president or black people won't like you"

This is why liberals have to disengage from Clinton, her supporters, and all of the new democrats. They are mean, threatening Machiavellians whose only use for liberals is to blame them for the party's collapse. The only way to protest the behavior of the hillarians is to refuse to reward it with your vote.

[Cali_Democrat]

109. I don't care who you vote for. nt

[emulatorloo]

113. You're very very good at putting words into other people's mouths

[uponit7771]

122. this is not what was posted and its patronizing at best

[FloridaBlues]

83. Magically everyone will do what he want. Bernie wishes he would get as many votes for president.

First he has to start getting to 30-35% in a national polls.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. He's doing what we should all do. Hold public servants accountable.

[ChiciB1]

92. Well, Another Slap In His Face!

I wonder if our Democratic leaders are pushing this stuff around? Sickening!

[TumbleAndJumble]

115. The article title is such a lie it should be changed; this is how to spread propaganda.

[Armstead]

117. The article title was sarcasm

[Autumn]

138. Bernie gives credit where credit is due

and Bernie is right in his assessment.

[L0oniX]

146. I recall that most of us normal thinking people also had a problem with Obama offering up SS...

to the repuke dogs. IMO the most anti Democratic thing Obama has ever tried to do.