2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWait! Is Sanders an anti-govt. Libertarian nut or a fascist going for state takeovers?
Can we at least get this cleared up?
I see the same people saying that Sanders is a Randian Anti-Government nutbag and THEN saying he is for government ownership of all private enterprise...
It CAN'T be both, so which is it?
It reminds me of how Jews have traditionally been attacked as both socialist/communists AND as super Capitalists controlling all the money through an international banking conspiracy.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Anyway, remember the 'D' and keep it holy.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)It wasn't funny by the way, just stupid.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)It CAN'T be both, so which is it?
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)I don't know who "the same people are," but whoever said he's a fascist or a libertarian is wrong.
ram2008
(1,238 posts)Whose favorability numbers are approaching those of George W. Bush. And He's the one not electable? lol.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)That's certainly true, based on his own words. Not sure whether he's evolved on that, but regardless, it doesn't make him either a fascist or a libertarian.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I think it is because you think using his own words does not sound damning. And damning is what you are going for.
So you substituted his phrase "public ownership" for "government ownership" and then make false claims.
Why? Because you think, cynically, that enough people are afraid of the "gubbnit" that if you make that claim, you can try to paint Sanders as someone that thinks the government should take over private companies.
Ironically, it makes YOU look a bit like a tea-bagger in addition to it showing that you like to play fast and loose with facts.
No, I will not rehash the argument here. Just point out that Sanders NEVER said that his position was that government should own the means of production. That is what YOU said he said and it is not true. It is, in fact, factually a lie.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Everyone knows this. Even you.
You're right, he didn't say the government should own "the means of production", he said the government should own the "major means of production." Maybe microbreweries or violin workshops stay private.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)And in case anyone is ignorant enough to not know what "public ownership" means:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/public-ownership
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)The only false quote here is yours:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251581823#post5
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Dan (from above): "He said the government should own the "major means of production."
Conflict: No, he did not.
Evidence: Actual quote: "Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production"
Case rested. True allegation.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)In order to alter a quote, you have to actually, you know, alter a quote. What I did was accurately convey his opinion as of 1987, which is that the government should own the major means of production.
Are you denying that "public ownership" and "government ownership" mean the same thing? Because if not, then this case is indeed closed and you are wrong. And if you are denying that, then you are also wrong.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Thanks for the correction.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Don't dodge the question.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Do you think the word "public" means the same as "government"?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)74. That's because "public ownership" and "government ownership" are synonyms.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/public-ownership
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/public+ownership
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership
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Response to DanTex (Reply #74)Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:13 PM
Bonobo (26,518 posts)
76. Understood. But you are confusing a discussion of political theory with the application of it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251581267#post76
What's relevant here (obviously) is the entire phrase "public ownership," which is a very common and well understood term and means government ownership. Everyone knows this. Even you. Why you are trying to pretend not to is beyond me. Sure, in other contexts "public" and "government" mean different things, but when used together with "ownership", they mean the same thing. You know, kind of like a "hot dog" isn't the same thing as a high-temperature canine.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Yes, in principle, in a Democratic system, the government is, by definition, a representation of the people. Its power and authority are derived from the public and its behavior is controlled by the will of the public.
As such, the ownership in question here can ONLY be accomplished by the government since the government is the very body which represents the public.
So, in theory, there is no conflict and what you say is true.
But enter now, your sad and transparent rhetorical games. I don't know maybe you have less experience with manipulative people where you come from than I do, but to me, your actions are as transparent as a child with a fake fever. Let's take a look:
In a pure system, in political THEORY, with a perfect democracy, the "public ownership" of say, an oil company, represents the fact that the public, the citizens have ownership of the resources of the country. Are you opposed to this?
Now, this gets manipulative because you know that there is sufficient distrust of government (not a pure theoretical government now, but a real and oligarchic government, quite the opposite of a representation of the public!) that if you say that a politician is in favor of the government "taking over" private business, you can create Randian images of the government agent taking over a mom and pop business or something.
However, in 30 years of public service, we have seen that despite his talk of political theory, he is an eminently pragmatic person who recognizes that academic discussions of political theory are just that and represent a sort of ideal.
Your manipulation is doen through 2 basic ways.
1) Selling the idea of bad government taking over. Like every other Republican talking point against Democrat, and
2) Blurring the line between academic political theory and actual policy positions.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)So I was right all along. All the accusations about altering quotes and misrepresenting are completely false.
In 1987 Bernie was in favor of government ownership of the major means of production. That's a fact.
And it's a little odd that you are so afraid of Bernie's own ideas that you object so vehemently to a 100% accurate account of them, which is what we have now established my account was.
It's not my fault if this brings up Randian images in your mind. It doesn't in my mind. In my mind, it's just the standard classical socialist system. Government owns the factories. Workplaces are run democratically by some kind of worker's council (the Russian term is "soviet" , and everyone is happy. Yay socialism.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But if you feel the overwhelming need to have the last word, I will let you have it.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Next time we can probably just skip the part where you pretend you don't know what "public ownership" means.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)public ownership with command and/or controlled ownership. Refusing to educate yourself about the difference is akin to Teabaggers yelling that Obama is a socialist and you are spreading ignorance.
Based on his own words, he advocates public ownership not government ownership.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)There is a difference between 'public ownership' and 'public ownership of the means of production' whereas your labor is also included as a means of production (often overlooked in state ownership). One demands active agency over you own situation public ownership of the means of production i.e., direct democracy in the workplace.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)other concepts like worker-owned cooperatives and workplace democracy, but public ownership of the means of production means a very specific thing: it means owned by the government.
And, no, labor is not included in "means of production." Means of production means things like factories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)And "public ownership" means ownership by the government.
They aren't the same thing, you know. Bernie was in favor of both. You can have public ownership without worker control, and you can have worker control without public ownership. What Bernie advocated for was both public (i.e. government) ownership and worker control.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)These are examples of public ownership and control
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Because "public ownership" and "government ownership" are synonymous.
jfern
(5,204 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Hydra
(14,459 posts)They fling wild insults the way the lowest of the RW do, and with as little regard for the truth or even basic reality, just praying something will stick.
It's really unnerving to see them claiming to be part of our party while behaving like Bushes.