A simple question for Cornel West's legion detractors.

[mhatrw]

Personally, I absolutely adore Cornel West. He is one of my intellectual heroes.

So, I have a simple question for all of West's detractors around here.

Putting all of the personality bullshit and PC considerations aside, on which actual issues do you prefer Obama's stance and analysis to West's stance and analysis?

Wall Street?

Drones?

Minimum Wage?

Social Justice?

What?

[Kelvin Mace]

1. They are not going to say

They don't want to engage the issues, they want to engage the personalities. Unless you mention HRC's "friend" Henry Kissinger, then they want to discuss things like "litmus tests" and "being pragmatic".

[haikugal]

26. I thought they prefer emotion over intellect actually. n/t

[stevil]

2. Obama is the President of the United States

And gotten a lot more things accomplished, maybe indirectly to be fair. Cornell could run if he wants to but I don't think thats in the cards. Compare all you want, you have a voice as do we all.

[daleanime]

4. So that's a.....

no.

Thank you, have a lovely evening.

[stevil]

7. Criticism is always welcome

Trying to make a point comparing positions between West and Obama is playing to an audience, not equal on any level. You and yours win, except when it really makes a difference.

[daleanime]

10. So what would you call it when you can't tell the difference....

between 'criticism' and 'question'?

"Alex, I'll take my reality for the win."

[stevil]

12. There is no question

Get West to run for and win the election for President and we can contrast. Until then there is no comparison, which is what the OP is trying to frame.

[haikugal]

30. The question was about positions..

I thought it was a good question.

[sibelian]

84. No, that's senseless, isn't it?

By that standard YOU have to run for president before anyone could compare YOUR positions with Obama.

What do you mean?

[sabrina 1]

83. Discussing issues used to be what politics is all about. I listen to West

and have for years, and can't find much to disagree with him on the issues.

He will criticize Bernie also should Bernie win this election. He has already stated that there are a few things he is not in agreement with 'Brother Bernie on'.

What I wonder is will those who are now so angry at him post his criticisms of Bernie when they happen, which they will? I have no doubt they will.

I WANT our leaders criticized. That is how we help them remember who they represent, which all too many of them don't seem to remember once they get into positions of power.

[ancianita]

94. I would. People can clearly understand Sanders and West's differences and the one that offers the

best potential for long term, constructive outcomes.

But I'm a West supporter, not a detractor, and am probably not a relevant participant to the OP.

[jfern]

3. It's never about the issues

Because if it was, Sanders would be winning this primary in a landslide.

[TheFarS1de]

5. Never post a positive

seems to be the standard procedure around here . Also I enjoy listening to Cornels talks , he has some deep thoughts and a great mind .

[JI7]

6. Sanders supports the Drone Program

[TheFarS1de]

8. Excellent analysis....

except the OP asked about Cornel and Obama . Try to stay on topic at least in your first response , makes it seem less obvious that your just got a hate on for Sanders .

[sibelian]

86. That was just sad.

Why did you do that?

[scarletwoman]

9. The explanation is simple, too, and has already been given to you in the AA Group.

Obama is a hero to a great many African Americans. Having a black man as President of the United States is something most never even dared dream of, and the profound emotional impact for the AA community of that accomplishment is beyond measure. It's a big fucking deal, and there's just no patience for those who would run him down - there just isn't.

Cornel West has been running Obama down for several years now, insulting him in particularly vile terms. AAs don't want to hear that shit, period.

This isn't about policies or issues, it's about unconditional love for Obama, who is beloved like family. They're not about to put up with someone talking smack about their family member - they're just not. They couldn't give a shit less about leftist political theory, that's a luxury reserved for whites who don't have to worry about simply surviving life in a black skin.

[liberal_at_heart]

11. No one is above reproach, and no one is so perfect that they can't be

criticized. I don't even agree 100% with everything Bernie says all the time, and I would not hesitate for one second to criticize him if he deserves it. For one, I don't think the $15/hr minimum wage should be phased in over a period of years. I think it needs to happen now. Corporations could certainly absorb the costs especially if they didn't pay their CEOs thousands times more than their average worker. Small businesses probably would need some time and maybe even some tax breaks to help them to be able to afford it. My point is no one is God and no President or Presidential candidate for that matter is above criticism. I have been very critical of Obama's education policy along with other economic policies and I will never apologize for that. My autistic son has suffered terribly under his Race to the Top policy.

[scarletwoman]

13. You didn't 'hear' a single thing I said. nt

[mythology]

15. Referring to the president as a Republican in blackface isn't valid criticism

It's just an insult designed to attract attention.

[liberal_at_heart]

17. Obama has likened himself to Reagan before. As to the black face comment I am not

African American, but I do know this. Not even the African American community can agree on what kind of language is acceptable in their own community, so I have no comment on whether that kind of language is appropriate. It certainly isn't language I would use, but some African Americans do and as a caucasian I am just not going to comment on what is or is not appropriate in the African American community.

[Scootaloo]

49. But referring to a candidate as "a republican with his head between women's legs" is A-OK

[brush]

40. You should be criticizing him for pairing with West . . .

because it's going to cost him a lot of black votes.

It's no secret in the AA community that West is highly disliked. This has been well known for years and the Sanders's campaign researchers should have uncovered this. They didn't serve their candidate well.

No Dem candidate can win without getting a large segment of the black vote.

Here is a link that will show what I'm talking about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=26471

[liberal_at_heart]

61. I'm not going to criticize him because his decision may cost him votes. I'm so tired

of Presidential campaigns being about nothing more than doing what it takes to win. That is exactly why Hillary is slipping in the poles. People sense that everything she does is so she can win and not about what she can to help people. With Bernie it is different. You can tell that everything he does and everything he says is about what he can do to help people, not just win a campaign.

[brush]

66. What? That's mindboggling!

How can he help people if he doesn't win?

[grasswire]

14. so.....

which do these particular AAs care most about?

Pushing back against white privilege?

Or protecting Obama from criticism?

[scarletwoman]

16. You'll have to ask them. nt

[grasswire]

19. oh, sorry. You seemed to be speaking for them.

So I thought perhaps you could answer my question.

[scarletwoman]

25. I'm not speaking for them, I'm reporting what they have said on this matter.

I would not presume to speak for AAs, I just listen to what they have to say.

[TM99]

27. And yet, I keep hearing white folks here

telling us what poc need or want.

And when push comes to shove, y'all all default back to "well ask them".

I will tell you as a bi-racial man that I fucking love Dr. West. He gets it. I have no problem with his language or criticisms of Obama. I am very happy that a black man became President. I am just not so happy that he ended up being a Reagan-admiring, neoliberal with deep ties to Wall Street & not main street.

[840high]

41. ,..That^

[Catherina]

50. This! Thank you brother!

And by the way, I love my blackness, and yours, and Obama's. But I do not like many of the things he did, for example droning kids in Yemen whose names we'll never know and actively sponsoring a vicious war there to the point that over 6 million people in Yemen are on the verge of death and starvation was not on my agenda. The UN stated that 10 million children in Yemen are in need of immediate assistance. That was not on my agenda. Nor was bombing grain depots with bombs marked “made in the USA” so mercenaries paid by Saudi Arabia can bring Yemen to its knees.

[TM99]

68. I love the blackness from my father.

And I love the whiteness from my mother.

And once I grew up and matured, I realized that I could revel in what my communities and culture taught me. But I could also look beyond it to those things that impact all of us no matter what our gender or race.

I think one of the singular pleasures of being an adult is getting to have your cake and eat it to. I can respect Obama for becoming the first of our community to become president. I can also dislike a great many of his policies, positions, and choices over the last eight years.

That is an awesome photo!

[Scuba]

54. /\_/\_Yep, this_/\_/\

[99Forever]

56. I would speculate you are far from alone.

Thanks for speaking truth to power.

[scarletwoman]

57. All I've done is relay what has been said by AAs on DU.

They spoke, I listened, and I'm reporting what I've heard them say.

[TM99]

64. Some spoke. Not all spoke.

Not all agree with each other. We are not a monolithic community.

Let them that disagree speak for themselves. It really isn't appropriate for you to do so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. BBBRAAAVVVOOO

Standing in the corner cheering...

[scarletwoman]

99. Please note that the OP was specifically addressed to DETRACTORS.

Therefore, I conveyed what I knew of the sentiments of the DETRACTORS, since that was the question posed by the OP.

As near as I can tell, those who disagree with the DETRACTORS have been speaking up freely all through this thread, so I don't see what the problem is.

[TM99]

148. You are speaking for others

who really have the adult capacity to speak for themselves. It really is that simple. And when you or anyone does that for a particular group of people of who you are not personally even a member of said community then it comes across as condescending. It is just inappropriate.

Do you want to share with us your personal feelings about whether you support or don't support Dr. West and why? That I am willing to discuss.

[HooptieWagon]

76. .

[ancianita]

95. Thank you,I fucking love Dr. West, too. Detractors of West = detractors of Sanders.

Well, at least Bernie is trying to "get it." Listening is one of his strengths, and he accepts Dr. West teaching him.

I think their public pairing is genius for re-engaging voters of all colors.

[TM99]

153. I completely agree.

Last edited Tue Sep 15, 2015, 09:49 AM - Edit history (1)

I get it. Not everyone likes him. Fine. But how can you disagree with his message? His writings and teachings of African American studies over the last few decades is the intellectual foundation for the entire modern civil rights movement that is BLM.

I am laughing my ass off that he is dismissed while they are lauded!

[ancianita]

158. Right?

[mhatrw]

21. So it's just nepotism?

[noiretextatique]

23. he is a politician and POTUS...not a hero or a beloved family member

and i am really sick of this crap about how the AA community feels about him. i do not support him on TPP or drones or any number of issues, nor do i feel betrayed or angry about criticism of him. West is entitled to his opinion...it's called free speech. this is an emotional manipulative argument pushed by some people, and it is bullshit as far as i'm concerned.

[scarletwoman]

29. Yes, generalizing is always fraught. The OP asked a question, and I merely sought to supply

an answer based on what I seen said in the AA Group, and what I have observed myself. My reply was not intended to be all-encompassing, that would be impossible.

[reddread]

156. fraught with hubris and sprinkled with racism

stereotyping is stereotyping and turning people of color against each other to benefit a white candidate?
thats REALLY ugly.

[pnwmom]

38. He is a hero to many, if not to you. Do you think it's a good idea to alienate all those people

unnecessarily? Do you think it's fine for West to call Obama the first n***ized President?

Do you really think linking up with West is going to raise Bernie's standing in the AA community? Who has stronger support in the community, in your opinion? West or Obama?

[ancianita]

96. THIS is what the niggerization of Obama means. Think about the GOP, and why West would say this.

FYI, in case you missed it, I'm reposting my OP on Cornel West's definition and original use of this word.

But the Atticus rebellion was a countermove of that direction...I call it the "niggerization" of a people -- not just black people because America been niggerized since 9/11. When you're niggerized, you're unsafe, unprotected, subject to random violence, hated for who you are. You become so scared that you defer to the powers that be and you're willing to consent to your own domination.

Think how this applies to Obama.

[pnwmom]

107. What I think about this isn't the point. What affect this will have

on the many AA people who have already formed a negative opinion on West is the point. You can't ask millions of people to change their minds about him. It would be much better if Sanders just dropped him now, and relied on other black progressives to help instead. There are plenty others he could have asked.

[ancianita]

109. AA are not monolithic, we know, and the AA who you and I hear see West differently.

Obama connects to a class of Americans not occupied by a sizable number of AA, and West's disappointment is in Obama's being out of touch with much of African America.

This dis of West is just another typical wedge driven into the Left by racists who want to see Democrats fail first through Sanders, and later through Hillary, and you're falling for it.

[pnwmom]

111. You're got it backwards. Most African Americans strongly support Obama

and are disgusted by the people like West who don't recognize all that he has accomplished despite the most obstructionist Congress in history, by far.

The idea that they feel more aligned with West than with Obama is ludicrous.

[scarletwoman]

113. "Obama connects to a class of Americans not occupied by a sizable number of AA..." Really?

Do you really think Obama would have won the election in 2008, and re-election in 2012 without the "sizable" number of AA votes?

[ancianita]

117. Of course not. But you may not even imply that they take your side against one of the greatest black

intellects in America.

Most of them don't because they don't split their allegiance between Cornel West and Barack Obama the way that you do. No, they don't. AA doesn't even 'represent' your view to the extent you might wish to think it does. If you think the AA group is representative of the huge 15% of PoC in this country, you're mistaken.

What you're falling for is a tired, old, cheap, convenient, racist fomenting of a political loyalty split within the Left of the Democratic Party around some offensive words -- that actually exist in a context that cannot hate either the president or the academic. Words can never, ever be enough to make the AA banish West from Sanders' campaign. If they didn't want him, he and Sanders would surely know it by now. Sure, those words are crude, funky, "ghetto" or "street" to many because whites will somehow think, "See? "They" can't have "proper" loyal opposition style!" But style isn't substance. Working class of any color see beyond that.

If Sanders loses the primary, West will vote for Hillary as he did Obama, but he will never trust that her work will be for AA. You don't have to be black to know she's as corporate and status quo as guilt-ridden Barack Obama. And those AA who saw past Obama's campaign and presidential hedging see past hers to the ugly days when she and Bill -- because they had to prove they could be "tougher on crime" than their GOP challengers -- set The New Jim Crow in motion, which today runs like "race neutral" mass encarceration machinery.

I don't know each and every black person in America, but given my current and past relationships, I would venture the opinion that these unoffended, understanding AA know that Dr. West speaks to it ALL, and will continue to speak out against presidents complicit in this evil machine's systematic criminalization and disenfranchisement through the war on black people known as the war on drugs.

West's words speak from historical context -- context -- that the easily offended know or care little about. Maybe you do know and care. If so, you'd know that to hold on to your offense won't help anyone.

[scarletwoman]

121. Let's make it simple, okay?

Let's see if having Cornell West campaigning with Bernie brings up Bernie's numbers with black Americans or not.

As they say, "The proof is in the pudding." I'm content to sit back and observe.

[ancianita]

124. Me, too. But being detractors of either is a losing game. We have to win, right?

[kwassa]

129. I frankly think this is bullshit.

Obama connects to a class of Americans not occupied by a sizable number of AA, and West's disappointment is in Obama's being out of touch with much of African America.

Obama is also connecting with African-Americans in a huge way, with an approval rating around 90%. There is literally no evidence that African-Americans believe Obama is out of touch with him.

[RufusTFirefly]

112. Small, but important correction. It should be "Attica rebellion" not "Atticus rebellion" n/t

[ancianita]

118. Absolutely correct. But my excerpt was a quote (without the [sic] notation), that's all.

[Old Crow]

37. I must say...

... your explanation was pretty amazing. You nailed it, IMHO. Incidentally, I'm a Sanders supporter, I'm white, and I'm generally supportive of Cornel West. But your explanation was so darned good, you opened my eyes. So now I'm in the somewhat awkward position of seeing Cornel West from two viewpoints at the same time.

[scarletwoman]

58. Thank you for actually hearing what I said, it's greatly appreciated.

I simply tried to answer the OP's question as clearly as I could, based on what I've heard the DU AA community saying about West.

It's rather sad - someone asks "why?", I try to explain: "this is why", and just about everyone gets their backs up.

Thank you for being the exception.

[Maedhros]

82. Unconditional love for a political hero is a bad idea.

It clouds one's ability to assess how that politician is performing (cf. Conservatives and Reagan).

[scarletwoman]

106. I'm merely reporting, I am not judging.

I understand and respect their viewpoint.

Plus, I respect the fact that if not for the votes of African Americans, we might have had a President McCain or a President Romney. We ought to be humbly grateful for their loyalty.

[Maedhros]

108. I'm not a Democrat, so party loyalty isn't high on my list.

I don't think it's a good idea to self-censor one's valid criticism of Obama's policy failures to mollify a voting bloc.

[scarletwoman]

110. I wasn't speaking of party loyalty, I was speaking of loyalty to Obama. nt

[Maedhros]

119. My apologies - I read "we ought to be humbly grateful for their loyalty"

as "loyalty to the Democratic Party."

Actually, I'm not grateful for their loyalty to Obama, because it is blind loyalty - and it's not exclusive to the black community. Many, many Democratic rank-and-file partisans are guilty of it. Obama has instigated some truly heinous policies - indefinite detention, bombing Libya into the Stone Age, criminalizing investigative journalism, aggressively prosecuting whistle blowers acting the public interest, executing citizens without due process, increasing military actions in Africa by 217%, expanding drone warfare with signature strikes and double taps, etc.

Remaining silent on these issues out of loyalty to the President allows these heinous policies to continue and become the new normal. And the trouble with 'normal' is it always gets worse...

[Number23]

91. But it's more than that. It's not just that black people love Obama. It's primarily that West's

"critiques" have been so rage-filled, fact-free, petty as hell and have made him look like an utter fool. In his efforts to bring down Obama, he has declared war on every single black person in a position of relative influence while having precious little negative to say about white people who created the very frameworks that he used to speak against.

There was a time when this was the POLAR OPPOSITE of the way that Cornell spoke. Which is why so much of his "criticism" feels as opportunistic as it does foolish and forced.

He has totally gone off the rails. As a result, I find it beyond fascinating to see which white people are so receptive to this new approach of his.

[scarletwoman]

104. Thank you. His rage does seem misdirected, to me.

He seems to be suffering from what Carl Jung calls "inflation". I simply do not trust anyone who is in that state.

[Number23]

105. Look at the people breaking their fingers trying to justify his use of the word "niggerization"

Cornell is alot of things but he's not stupid. He knew he could make alot of inroads with people who are all too happy to sit by and let a black man say the kind of unhinged, racist invective they feel they couldn't because it would clash too strongly with their self-imposed perception that they are "not racists" and/or "liberals."

He knows where his bread is buttered.

[scarletwoman]

116. Well, if that's who West wants to appeal to - although gawd knows why - he can have them.

Seems like a case of "looking for love in all the wrong places" - but what do I know...

[ancianita]

123. This is not some "new approach" of his. He's not "gone off the rails." What a narrow take. His whole

body of work far outweighs his call out on the president. His comments are not "rage-filled, fact-free and petty as hell." Context. You need to apprise yourself of the context of his criticisms.

Obama and West both know and like each other, in case you didn't know. So to continue this hyperbolic description of West as if he's got some permanent, irredeemable character flaw is at best disingenuous, and at worst casts shade on Sanders, whose judgment is historically impeccable.

AA reviews of both men are mixed, and West detractors need to step back and be careful not to project.

[Number23]

125. You don't get to tell me what I know about black people, despite how much you've "read" in a book

If you think "black people love Obama," then you haven't been around enough of them to know how monolithic your characterization of them is.

I've avoided you and your pseudo-intellectual posts about my family and community. But I am a black woman raised in an all black town whose not the slightest bit interested or impressed with your pontifications about black people. Are we clear?

[kwassa]

134. West is hyperbolic in his criticisms. His language is completely excessive.

The context does not improve them.

The real problem is this: West, and his friend Tavis Smiley, lost their status as self-appointed spokesmen for black America when eclipsed by the first campaign for the presidency of Obama. Neither of them took it well, neither was an early supporter of Obama. Black people noticed.

Obama has giant approval ratings from African-Americans. West's crazed critiques destroyed his credibility with them.

[mhatrw]

126. All these "critiques" of West are rage-filled, fact-free, and petty as hell.

Last edited Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:37 AM - Edit history (1)

It's like the Dean scream. Oh my God, Cornel West screamed! AAAAAARRRGGGGG!!! He said a bad word!!!!!! He has gone totally off the rails!!!! Call the celebrity TMZ police!!!!

How about some substance? Any substance?

It's all a bunch of hot air. I really don't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks of Cornel West personally. Politics should not be a fucking personality contest. On what issues of any importance that West and Obama differ on, do you side with Obama over West? Not a single West critic on this entire thread has managed to come up with a single issue. Can you? Are you up to the challenge?

[Number23]

135. And the "issues" have been explained in glorious technicolor which you have chosen to ignore

repeatedly. So you're not asking anything in good faith. And we are done trying to explain.

[mhatrw]

137. LOL. "We"

[MoveIt]

140. Maybe it's the Royal We?

weaponized intersectionalism for the win!

[mhatrw]

142. coronation pending

[sheshe2]

152. Holy Mother!

"critiques" have been so rage-filled, fact-free, petty as hell and have made him look like an utter fool. In his efforts to bring down Obama, he has declared war on every single black person in a position of relative influence while having precious little negative to say about white people who created the very frameworks that he used to speak against.

I listened to him on NPR with Tavis. Never liked what he was saying, he shat on our President, they both did. Then he lost it when Obama won.

Cornel West: President Obama Doesn't Deserve To Be Sworn In With MLK's Bible
Dr Cornel WestDr. Cornel West says that President Barack Obama doesn’t deserve to be sworn in for his second term as President of the United States with his hand on the bible of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

“You don’t play with Martin Luther King, Jr. and you don’t play with his people, said West. “By his people, I mean people of good conscience, fundamentally good people committed to peace and truth and justice, especially the Black tradition that produced it.

“All of the blood, sweat and tears that went into producing a Martin Luther King, Jr. generated a brother of such high decency and dignity that you don’t use his prophetic fire for a moment of presidential pageantry without understanding the challenge he represents to all of those in power regardless of what color they are.

“The righteous indignation of a Martin Luther King, Jr. becomes a moment of political calculation. And that makes my blood boil. Why? Because Martin Luther King, Jr died…he died…for the three crimes against humanity that he was wrestling with. Jim Crow, traumatizing, terrorizing, stigmatizing Black people. Lynching, not just ‘segregation’ as the press likes to talk about.

He said of Obama, You don't play with MLK and you don't play with his people???? “By his people, I mean people of good conscience, fundamentally good people committed to peace and truth and justice, especially the Black tradition that produced it.

Ummm, you don't play with his people? Obama, last I saw was black. So from Cornel's mouth to our ears, Obama is not his people. He is not a brother to Martin according to West.

EF Him

[GitRDun]

18. I've been doing my level best to get an understanding of what's going on here

These are a couple links I was given to look at:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost

http://www.thenation.com/article/cornel-west-v-barack-obama/

After reading both articles at length and some others as well, this was my take:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=26473

I would respond to your OP by saying my sense is that there are no major black community issues where they disagree on what's happening, there appears to be a huge gap over how much can be accomplished in Washington.

My sense of West is that he's let some petty issues bother him, he badly wants to be back in the spotlight, and haranguing about the President is how he gets his share of the spotlight.

Whether or not that makes him a liability to the Sanders campaign, is not for me to judge personally, I don't live in the community. From what I've read, and AA forum members have said, it is a negative.

I can point you to other things I've read, but that's my two cents.

[grasswire]

20. West IS very much in the spotlight.

In June, he addressed 5,000 Unitarian clergy at the national general assembly. He's campaigning with a rising and popular presidential candidate. He generates excitement and enthusiasm. He's in the spotlight.

[GitRDun]

24. I know he's in the spotlight, I said that.

The question seems to be why?

It's been a long time since he's been an intellectual powerhouse. Most of his national appearances prior to hooking up with Sanders are news spots where he trashes the President as well as most other popular black intellectuals. Take a look at the articles. They are a long read but very educational.

I think he fits with Sanders because part of Sanders campaign strategy is to say the President abandoned liberals after the election. I won't bore you with the reasons I think it's a bad strategy.

The point of the OP is why don't some like West. I'm trying to explain why. Yes, West is in the spotlight. He's not in the spotlight because of his intellectual relevance. That was gone years ago. He's in the spotlight because of is brash unapologetic criticism of everything Obama.

The question is will it hurt BS or not. The answer seems to be yes. You are free to have your own opinion.

[jwirr]

90. Sanders did not say Obama abandoned liberals. He

pointed out that President Obama had a very big following - his supporters during the election. But that he never called upon these supporters to help him get laws passed. Instead he tried to do it by himself. In some he succeeded and in others he lost.

And anyone who followed him knows that he tried to deal with the Rs in order to get the things he wanted for 6 years. He has only recently used his executive powers to get other bills passed. He has yet to ask up to help.

Bernie says that he is admitting right now that he cannot do it alone and will take the help of his supporters to get what needs to be done accomplished. He is not criticizing the President just saying he will try another method.

I don't know about you but I supported President Obama in both election but I do not recall him asking for support to get the Congress to do anything. He used his own methods.

[GitRDun]

93. This is not a true statement

But that he never called upon these supporters to help him get laws passed. Instead he tried to do it by himself.

He asked right from the beginning in his inaugural address.

I hope we do get Bernie's revolution, e.g., bulletproof majorities.

If we don't Sanders won't get anymore done than President Obama, just my opinion.

[jwirr]

102. All through his campaign President Obama talked about

"Yes, we can." and it is not surprising that he said it in his inaugural address. Recently I saw the Unions call of all of us to oppose TPP. Many calls were made in the attempt to stop it.

That is the kind of action that I expected that the President would use to get what we wanted. That is what I am referring to when I said he never called on us.

Well either way unless we do not work with him he will not get much done. Nor will Hillary without triangulation and I really fear that kind of method. Too often people like me have gotten the shaft in that kind of negotiation - we are expendable.

[GitRDun]

103. You sure are right, we all get screwed in the negotiations

we need 60 Senate seats, badly...

[mhatrw]

128. What we need is the asses of the masses in the streets.

That's the difference between Sanders and Obama.

Sanders knows ""Yes, we can!" needs we.

[GitRDun]

132. That's just bull

Sanders is no more likely to get 60 votes in the Senate than Obama.

This stupid meme that somehow Bernie's magic beans will result in 60 Senate votes is simply laughable.

[mhatrw]

136. I never said Sanders would get 60 in the Senate.

I said Sanders will get people out in the street protesting until the 0.1% compromises.

[GitRDun]

141. Wishful thinking

The 0.1% wouldn't compromise if the pitchforks were out.

It's 60 in the Senate or forget about it.

[mhatrw]

143. 60 in the Senate is what they want.

60 million pikes, on the other hand ...

[GitRDun]

144. Like I said, wishful thinking...

they don't fear anything...

politicians in their back pockets....check.

militarized police force...check.

They shut down Occupy all over this country without a peep.

I think its great to be excited about Bernie.

This meme that somehow Bernie can succeed where Obama failed and no discussion of 60 Senate votes is just ridiculous. I wouldn't care so much if people weren't dissing the President like they do. It's fine to criticize the guy, but you have to be at least realistic about the world he's governing in if you want others to take it seriously.

[mhatrw]

145. OK, I guess there is no sense in trying then.

Power to the plutocrats!

[reddread]

159. just no way to gitrdone

I guess.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

162. +1,000

Bernie is calling for a revolution on behalf of the people. He has the wisdom to know that we have grown so far toward oligarchy that TPTB must be intimidated with OWS on steroids.

This is the difference between him and all the rest.

[mhatrw]

127. Exactly when did Obama ever ask people to protest in the streets?

You must be thinking about pre-President Obama.

[GitRDun]

146. Lol

I didn't say he asked people to protest in the streets....he asked for their help..call congress, vote Democrat, etc.

There's been plenty of posts on this. There was even a Youtube video where they mashed up Bernie's Obama didn't do it right statements with speeches Obama has given.

These things are there if you want to see them.

[mhatrw]

147. Rich people don't care who you call or how you vote.

Rich people only compromise when they feel threatened, however slightly. They are not threatened by people calling up their vassals. Read history.

[mythology]

22. You can't ignore personality

Especially not when one of the people under discussion thinks of himself as the guardian of what it means to be black (hence saying Obama is in blackface or niggerized) as well as having an ego that lets him claim himself to be a prophet.

But I prefer the grounded in reality policies that Obama has put forth. West couldn't get elected dog catcher, much less president. He's under no pressure to actually get anything done other than to carp from the sidelines. Don't get me wrong, it's fun to do, but ultimately meaningless.

For example, name one thing that West has actually accomplished that measures up to the real world impact of the ACA, shepherding the military through the successful repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, killing bin Laden, the Iran nuclear deal, reopening diplomatic ties to Cuba, signing the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, stopping the Department of Justice from defending the Defense of Marriage Act, etc?

West on the other hand put out a spoken word album that his website claimed "that in 'all modesty, this project constitutes a watershed moment in musical history.'" It did not constitute a watershed moment by any stretch.

West talks a lot, mostly about himself. Obama does a lot. I know which one I'd have.

[dionysus]

28. right on. nt

[Ron Green]

32. West is a truth-teller. He's an important voice; not trying to get elected.

Bernie Sanders is also a truth-teller. His campaign is not about pandering, or even strategizing. It's a severe test for all of America: Can we hear his truth, and go beyond the bought politics to choose something better? Or do we continue to wring our hands and vote for whatever Wall Street candidate is least offensive to us? Or not vote at all, because we sense it does no good?

For these reasons Cornel West is a timely and appropriate spokesman for Bernie Sanders.

[pnwmom]

35. Thanks for the summary. Yes, Obama has accomplished a great deal in the face of great obstacles.

Cornel West has succeeded in producing a lot of hot air.

[underthematrix]

31. My problem with Cornel West is not his politics. My problem

with Cornel West is his disrespect of the first African American president whom he loved, adored and campaigned for at one time. But when the President did not accept an invitation to the Black State of Union in either 2008 or 2009, West blew a gasket. West supposedly has a PhD in one of the social sciences and couldn't figure why the President could not attend the Black State of the Union. After his tirade on the Tavis Smiley's show, I was done with his sick ass.

Yeah I hate Cornel West. Let's see. I'm trying to think of one AA relative or friend who doesn't hate the MF. Nah . . can't think of anyone.

Dr. Eric Dyson has disagreed with PBO but he's respectful. Dr. Dyson is a guest host on MSNBC.

[JustAnotherGen]

155. You nailed it

For me? He's allowed to think and say whatever he wants.

It's a free country.

But no one can hold a gun to my head and make state I love him! He's filled with awesome! He's great!

I'll take the bullet because I detest him . . .

And that's that.

I don't care if it makes me 'less black' than others. I don't care if I get a hide for stating that.

[pnwmom]

33. I can't put aside his nastiness toward President Obama.

What you contemptuously refer to as "personality bullshit and PC considerations."

He's let his hatred of President Obama blind him. No one like that should be associated for someone who wants to run as a Democrat for the Presidency of the United States.

Bernie's making a mistake to link up with him, which could come back to haunt him if he enters the General. Millions of voters who admire Obama will be less strongly motivated to vote for Bernie.

[Bluenorthwest]

89. But you casually put aside the nastiness toward LGBT out of Francis, also out of Obama's campaign

in 2008. Obama surrogates had called LGBT vampires, child killers, prostitutes and pedophiles. DU, the Party and Obama supporters defended all of those speakers as valid parts of his campaign and inauguration. So some crowd of people to complain about nastiness. Francis, whom you promote here, says my people are inherently disordered and attempt to disfigure God as part of Satan's machinations to overthrow God. And you put that aside and in fact get angry that others object to it.

It is what it is but I'd not talk about it too much if I were in your shoes.

[ancianita]

101. I DO put his words aside. They were not spoken with hate or nastiness. Your claim doesn't make it so

Your dissing of West is a diss of Bernie Sanders' judgment which, historically, has been pretty darned good.

So far in this thread I've addressed the tired argument of West's use of "niggerization."

Nowhere in the explanation below will you hear Cornel West use the word "hate." You demonize his whole body of work from your selected list of offensive words toward Barack Obama. Obama himself understands why West has spoken of him as he has.

[RandySF]

34. Well we've reached an interesting point

When objections to calling Obama the n-word is just PC. I expect that on FR, not DU.

[pnwmom]

36. +1000. n/t

[mhatrw]

39. Well we've reached an interesting point

Last edited Mon Sep 14, 2015, 04:43 AM - Edit history (1)

When nobody can name a single issue on which he or she favors Obama over West.

[840high]

42. I asked that in another

thread - never got an answer.

[Old Crow]

43. If you'll look at post #9, and re-read it with an open mind...

... that may help. There are a few posters in this thread who are trying to tell you that you're missing the point. It isn't about issues; it's about language and tone and attacking America's first black president with some of the most vitriolic language I can ever remember an academic using in the public sphere.

If you insist on holding fast to your original question, I guess one "single issue" where I can say I favor Obama over West is the use of vitriolic, racially-charged language. West seems to be for it; Obama's never stooped that low.

"America's first n*****ized black president"? Really?! Can you defend that? I can't.

Incidentally, I'm a Bernie supporter and I generally agree with Cornel West. But if a POC says they can't abide Cornel West, I can accept and understand it (especially after reading post #9).

I don't think it's at all helpful to respond with: "You do?! Why? Prove to me that your dislike is justified by citing policy differences." Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but that really seems to be what your post is doing.

[brush]

46. Try this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=26471

[RandySF]

47. How about as human beings?

How does a man with a PhD stoop to that level? There are some actions that prevent me from taking people seriously on any level, and that was one of them.

[betsuni]

45. Yes. Also, how are we supposed to know what Cornel West's legion detractors think?

I don't even know what a legion detractor is.

[Ed Suspicious]

44. It's a very good question. I suspect cults of personality only really consider personality.

[mhatrw]

48. indeed

[Ed Suspicious]

65. Great song.

[jtuck004]

51. As to the quality of West's critics, others among them include the fella who was president of

harvard, larry summers. The kind of person who makes you want to take a shower after being in the same room. II would as soon have a a child molester next door. Frankly, if you agree with the misogynistic creep about anything, West included, you can have each other.

"The president of Harvard University has provoked a furore by arguing that men outperform women in maths and sciences because of biological difference, and discrimination is no longer a career barrier for female academics."aren't in science is because they aren't inclined that way?

Here.

And as an advisor to president clinton he helped begin the process of moving tens of millions of Americans into a poverty from which neither they nor their children will ever recover, and their assets to his friends at the bank$.

Clinton now says he regrets acting on that advice. He is not the only one with regrets.



I will walk with West any day, any time.

[Catherina]

53. +1 n/t

[mhatrw]

52. Scores of responses about propriety & personality clashes.

Not a single issue oriented criticism of West.

Why does this sound so familiar?

[Scuba]

55. You noticed that too, eh?

[MoveIt]

62. Because

they
got
nothing.

[sibelian]

85. Beeeeecauuuuse.... they can't read?

I'm not really sure what else their excuse is.

[Number23]

92. Scores of responses and you haven't read a word of them. Perhaps the ISSUE is the nature of

West's criticism itself. That he is now every bit as entitled as the systems he once railed about.

I am so sorry if this doesn't meet with your approval.

[mhatrw]

130. It doesn't meet my approval because it's more bullshit personality politics.

You agree with West on every single issue on which he and Obama disagree.

Yet you hate West and support Obama.

How is that different from people who benefit from Obama's policies but hate Obama because they think he is too uppity?

[Number23]

138. I have never said that or have even implied it.

You agree with West on every single issue on which he and Obama disagree.

Have no idea where that came from and am beyond done here.

[mhatrw]

139. Because you are afraid to list off the issues

on which you favor Obama over West.

[scarletwoman]

100. You refuse to consider the answers you've been given because they don't conform to YOUR framing.

This is also a very familiar phenomenon.

[mhatrw]

131. Yeah, it's my framing. This is politics, not celebrity news.

I care about issues not racial Q factors and focus groups advertisement reactions.

How about you?

[uponit7771]

59. I don't care for people who call other humans racist names no matter who they are and to do such

... after the person feels slighted for not getting inaugoration tickets shows how little West is inside.

Keep defending the Obama hater

[SouthernProgressive]

60. Obama is an intellectual hero to many and a proven leader.

West is an eccentric intellectual who likes to throw bombshells at leaders. West can fuck off for his comments about Obama. They are proof that while being a pretty smart guy he also lacks self-control and the ability to work for progress with others at the highest levels. So he and Sanders are tied together. Not something anyone would want.

[Kelvin Mace]

63. So, are you saying then that you support

Obama's views on drones and Wall Street versus West's?

[SouthernProgressive]

67. Yes. That is exactly what I said. nt.

[Kelvin Mace]

70. Gotcha

Wall Street should go unpunished and drone murder okay by you.

[SouthernProgressive]

71. Exactly. nt.

[polly7]

72. That's so strange ..... I've never seen anyone actually admit so confidently

before that murder by drone is acceptable or that Wall Street's crimes, that have harmed the whole world, are no big deal.

Certainly didn't think I'd see it here.

[SouthernProgressive]

73. Well, you just have me pegged. lol. nt.

[polly7]

74. Huh?

I just commented on what you stated you agreed with.

[SouthernProgressive]

75. 100% nt.

[polly7]

77. Yay drones, yay corruption!

[SouthernProgressive]

79. Yes!!!! Two hundred percent now. You got me!!!!!! lol. nt.

[polly7]

80. No ........... YOU got you. I just stated how odd it was to see. nt.

[mhatrw]

69. "I hate Cornel West for exercising his First Amendment rights!"

Sorry if this is news to any of you, but Obama's administrations have been a big disappointment to most progressives.

Do you hate me now for saying that?

[randome]

81. No one hates you. I doubt anyone hates West.

But anyone who can't form sentences without throwing insults is certainly no intellectual giant, IMO.

Anyone can curse and insult. But what does that prove?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[mhatrw]

87. I think West just wanted to let folks know that it was OK for POC

to criticize Obama for his progressive failings.

I say the same sort of stuff to my Republican friends. I say, "Why are you so angry about Obama? What did he ever actually do that you are so up in arms about? What has he ever done that is more "socialist" than what Richard Nixon did?"

[HassleCat]

78. Maybe not the best campaign ally

West is an academic. His critique of Obama is well suited to discussion in the classroom. It does not make good campaign material because it is far too inflammatory. What is intended to provoke serious discussion in an academic setting will provoke outrage in the primary election campaign.

[mhatrw]

88. It used to be too outrageous to speak the truth.

But that is so last campaign cycle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. He is also the intellectual hero for a lot of African American folks and other PoC as well

not just you.

But to some here, who seek to speak for all, he is a pariah... for daring say what he has... words and feelings that are quire common in every inner city I suspect... but I can only speak for the people locally who I know.

His detractors like to claim they speak for all, and they don't... even if the POTUS is a hero to many of them, the same way Kennedy was to many Irish Americans who also never thought they would ever see that.

Myself, reading West and others becuase I know the conflict internally is real, and that is all the extent of it I will speak off here, in an open forum. They got the echo chamber as far as I am concerned. They also got my undivided lack of support for them in particular, not the struggle. And that is a damage they do not realize they have done. Not my issue as far as DU is concerned.

And on edit, not talking for anybody, just relaying my experience here. as an observer. I do not want to even give the impression I am talking for anybody else.

[RufusTFirefly]

114. Yes, he was the first AA student to graduate from Princeton with a Ph.D in philosophy

Dr. West knows first hand about being a trailblazer. But he doesn't pull his punches or mince his words, a facet of his personality that some people find unsettling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Yup, and he is still having a hard time catching a cab in NYC

[Fawke Em]

120. I'm going to finally say this: those who say AAs in the South hate West are full of SHIT.

Look, as a Southerner, even though I'm white, I have grown up with more black people than the vast majority of white people from liberal states who are on this board.

I am NOT coming to you as a "I have friends who are black" person. I'm coming to you as a "my friends are black and white and red and yellow" person.

NO AA person do I know in real life hates Dr. West. I'm sure some people would take offense to his rant about Obama a year or two ago, but they're over it now. I know some of the AAs on this board do.

What I'm telling you is this: Dr. West is NOT a pariah in the South. Not by a long shot.

My friend to me today: "If the boot is on our neck, does it make any difference what color the foot is in the boot?" Dr. Cornel West's endorsement of Bernie Sanders just affirms what I already knew: he's the only candidate worth casting my vote for.

He's black. He's from Georgia and he's NOT alone.

On edit: In addition to growing up with people of color, I was married to a Muslim early in my life and we had a son. I know a great many MORE PoC from that experience. I'm now married to a non-religious Jew who was born in South Africa. Yeah - I'm the one-woman United Nations and I love it. We have a daughter together. Trust me when I say I know some things. I don't live in some white, Southern bubble.

[Chitown Kev]

122. Honest question gets you an honest answer

Of course, I prefer West's stance on most issues just as I prefer Obama's 1996 stance on most issues to Obama's 2015 stance on most issues.

The fact is , West isn't in the federal government (at least Bertrand Russell was in the British Parliament for a time...being the grandson of a former Prime Minister). West is not an elected official. and that's OK. But you can't apply the same standards to West and Obama either, that is unfair.

[mhatrw]

133. How is it unfair?

Last edited Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:34 AM - Edit history (1)

If you agree with West on everything he differs from Obama on, then what is all the bile about?

WAAAAAAHHHH, he was a meanie-pants to Obama!!!! WAAAAAAHHHH, he was racist (lol) to Obama!!!!!!

What are y'all going to cry about next, AA rappers using "nigga" in their lyrics?

Come on. Obama disappointed all progressives. He would not deny that if he were sitting with us right now. And Obama would also defend West's right to criticize a POTUS in harsh language. So what's the problem? Presidents are public figures, not sacred cows. West did not betray Obama any more than Obama betrayed the legion of AA progressives who helped elect him.

[Chitown Kev]

150. Because what a "philosopher" or an "activist" does

is very different from what an elected politician does. Bernie sanders is proof of that, actually.

Trust me, I don't think that ANY politician is a sacred cow, not even Obama. But with rare exceptions (and I cited Bertrand Russell as one occasional exception) a philosopher is not an elected politician and elected politicians/representatives usually do not like public pressure and withering criticism and pushing from outside of the political arena (Socrates is the obvious example, I can name others)

These consist of two entirely different functions in a democratic society and if a society is not democratic...watch out.

having said that...

While I would NEVER vote for Ben Carson, I would love it if we could elect a neurosurgeon or a mathematician (Fujimori in Peru without the corruption, that is) or a playwright (Havel in the Czech Republic) or a philosopher like West as President of the United States. But then, getting back to the case of Alberto Fujimori in Peru, the realities of political systems grind even the best of them down.

Bernie Sanders, if elected president, will not be an exception to that.

[mhatrw]

151. Nice post.

While I wish I could, I cannot disagree.

I just side with activists. YMMV

[Chitown Kev]

154. But activists play an important part in democracy

there's nothing intrinsically WRONG with that but trick is not to get those two roles mixed up...well, unless you're Bertrand Russell, lol, but few people can actually do that.

[Major Hogwash]

149. Well done.

The very fact that Cornel West was writing books about race relations in this country over 20 years ago has apparently gone unnoticed by the West-bashers at DU.

[Chitown Kev]

157. I'm one of the West bashers and

I have been reading and studying Cornel West's books for over 20 years.

I started throwing sideeye at West because of the Million Man March and because of the overt religious tones in his books.

Your statement is not well qualified there.

[reddread]

160. yeah. faith has been a real stumbling block. MLK jr

Malcolm X. MORE DECENT HUMANS THAN WE CAN COUNT OR ACCOUNT FOR
were moved by faith.

just because a few charlatans get play from their charlatan friends doesnt mean real people
doing real good within and/or/despite their faith and religious practices need to be mocked or
discounted.

people throwing faith under the bus need their heads examined, CLOSELY.

[Chitown Kev]

161. I was raised in a black church

I know how to take the bad with the good, trust me on that