2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumLet's maybe have a serious conversation about race, Bernie Sanders, and the election
Transplanted from this RIDICULOUS thread:
Froma Harrop: Bernie Sanders problem with blacks and others
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44. Let's get into something else CK
Where Im coming from is Occupy. I was at Zuccotti Park. I'm pissed about the wars. Im still pissed off that the bankers got bailed out and no one was held accountable. I think Mr. Sanders is the best bet to address that wrong. Im also partial to him on a number of other issues from taxation to trade, etc.
Buts lets talk about Bernie and black people. Let's talk Black Lives Matter. I was not happy when they interrupted Mr. Sanders in Portland (the other one). Why? Because I want Bernie to win and I felt like they were unfairly targeting him.
That said, upon reflection, BLM isnt an electoral movement. They dont have to play nice with or back any candidate. They've got a point to make, and theyre not wrong. It doesnt matter if I agree with the tactics, they dont need my permission. If we cant handle shutting down a few political events to draw attention to the very real problems we have with killing people of color and having a rigged system, then were in deep trouble. I shut down a park because of bad bank loans.
BLM changed my mind.
Lets be very clear so there is no misunderstanding; the article Ive referenced, I dont agree with this point of view. I think theres an ugly attempt to portray Mr. Sanders as a racist, or at least too out of touch. This article is light on substance and heavy on slur. Really, read it.
Ive posted other articles here that I think prove Mr. Sanders is reaching out:
Sanders meets with Black Lives Matter activists
But that doesnt mean Mr. Sanders is a perfect candidate. He's just a man, and anyone who's survived as long as he has in politics has probably made his fair share of compromises and artful dodges. That said, I'm 100% with him. I think he's the best option, and I think his willingness to change his message and to have these conversations means hes listening.
Im staring here from a place of ignorance. Im not black. I dont know what it is to be black. Marching a few times with the NAACP doesn't change that. I was so turned around that I was miffed that BLM interrupted my candidate instead of being angry that the system is rigged, and that its literally a life or death problem.
I really want Mr. Sanders to be the candidate of Occupy and the candidate of BLM, so Im willing to start from the assumption that Bernie has room for improvement. That means shooting down articles like this while still assuming we got work to do.
Ive got a lot to learn, and I want to know what I can do help. I hope that is what Bernie is doing, and I hope thats where all my fellow Bernie supporters are at. This article is bullshit. We gotta shoot down this crap like this, but in all seriousness, we need to figure out what we need to do to make a movement that is everything it needs to be for everyone it needs to work for.
So, Im listening.
Chitown Kev
52. tomorrow
driving rainstorm in Chicago plus knocked out wifi plus i hate posting on the phone plus my bedtime means i'll get back to you tomorrow and answer this question in full.
djean111
(14,255 posts)negative stories. We can't really "shoot down" those stories here; supporters of other candidates clasp them to their bosoms and cackle with glee. And keep on keeping on. Which is what I am going to do. For Bernie.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But it's still bedtime.
Hopefully, civil conversation can be had.
Regardless, Bernie Sanders is a good, honest, caring man that has been fighting the good fight for all, for decades.
Uncle Joe
(58,348 posts)Thanks for the thread, portlander.
SonderWoman
(1,169 posts)Because a president can only be as progressive as their congress, and Bernie has spent a lot of time bashing the Democratic party, which won't win down ticket races. We need a blue wave in 2016 to accomplish anything, and nominating someone who can't even garner support from women and minorities will end in election defeat and guarantee a repub prez. We need a party uniter. We need a blue wave. We need a Dem in the white house and 100 Bernie's in the senate. Not 1 Bernie in the white house and 100 tea partiers.
This is also the problem with some bragging about repub support for Bernie, it doesn't inspire down ticket races. For example, a repub may vote for Bernie for prez but also vote for Tom Cotton for senate. If that occurs, we will have another gridlocked govt with no progress and a president who will be a punching bag for the rightwing. Bernie doesn't even have endorsements from his own party, meaning he can't even rally his own troops.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)he is Jewish? It's hard to say. But let's face it, Obama ran in 08 saying he was opposed to the civil rights of the LGBT community and holding very nasty rallies with anti gay evangelists who preached against LGBT people at these official events.
Barack said 'Sanctity, God is in the mix, with one man and one woman there is a spiritual quality, I am a Christian.'
And that was just fine and dandy with his ardent supporters, with this Party and with DU.
Show me what Bernie has done that is similar to holding rallies with 'ex gays' who call a minority group child killers and vampires. Because fair play is fair play.
This cycle is making me despise this community, this Party and what they did to us in 2008. Brings it all back, the vicious bigotry of the Double Standard Democrats.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Obama ran in 08 saying he was opposed to the civil rights of the LGBT community
Barack Obama has never been opposed to the civil rights of the LGBT community ever in his political career.
Marriage equality does not constitute "all" LGBT rights. Obama co-sponsored a LGBT nondiscrimination bill in the Illinois Senate, for example.
Obama's platform in 2008 included ENDA, passing hate crimes legislation, getting rid of DADT, and he did come out against Proposition 8 (that he did that AND was opposed to marriage equality was a bit shady).
Obama was for marriage equality (for a time) waaaaaaay before Bernie Sanders
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Bullshit.
You have tried to prove that claim and failed, again: Bernie never opposed same sex marriage.
Obama did as recently as 2010:
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76109_Page2.html#ixzz3m7JWMrjl
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76109_Page2.html#ixzz3m7L8UYA2
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76109_Page2.html#ixzz3m7JblnGe
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)the first sitting president that ever endorsed marriage equality, and Obama was willing to stand for re-election on that platform.
All of that material has been digested and picked apart with regard to Obama and Sanders and is a serious derailment to the topic of this thread.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The quotes I cited prove that you're wrong and that you really have no idea what you're talking about.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)not to "civil rights". There is a difference.
Myself, I get uncomfortable when people neatly package all "gay civil rights" into "marriage equality" as if there isn't more work that needs to be done.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Same sex marriage is a civil right, Obama opposed it and Bernie didn't.
Trying to pretend otherwise is dishonest.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)That should be your topic.
Analyze everything about Hillary's policies and their effect on people of color.
The Bernie Sanders + race topic has already been covered extensively from every angle.
Mrs. Clinton doesn't get scrutiny like that.
I think we need to talk about how her work and policies have affected people of color from Africa to Haiti to Walmart to the prison system, NAFTA, banking deregulation.
We can have a real conversation about policy and race.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)But that doesnt mean Mr. Sanders is a perfect candidate. He's just a man, and anyone who's survived as long as he has in politics has probably made his fair share of compromises and artful dodges.
Thing is, no politician can be all things to all people. Bernie Sanders isn't and I don't expect him to be.
I do have to run out again but I'll say this...
To me, it's as if some white people read and are impressed by Bernie Sanders record, have vetted it, and simply want black people to rubber-stamp their view of that record and support Sanders.
I do find the expectation of "rubber-stamping" to be offensive and rather typical of the decades long relationship between white liberals and the black community (true enough, not all of the black community is "liberal" in the same way)
Put out a fact shit, say the facts, and let me (as a black man) make determinations based on whatever factors. I don't need for white liberals to translate Bernie Sanders record for me.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)And Occupy, for that matter. Groups, or individual supporters, don't impact my vote. I'm not voting for groups or individual supporters... are you? I support Moral Mondays, but if Reverend Barber suddenly endorsed Hillary, I wouldn't switch my vote to her.
Income inequality. High joblessness among POC. Astronomical college tuition. Protecting Social Security and Medicare. Reining in the "morally repugnant" Prison Industrial Complex. Avoiding unnecessary wars. Is #BLM trying to convince voters that Bernie is somehow inferior to other candidates on those issues -- issues that greatly impact POC? I'm not buying it.
What *exactly* is it that you think you need to learn?
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Bernie Sanders is no longer working for SNCC. John Lewis isn't either, for that matter.
Barack Obama is no longer a community organizer helping impoverished blacks to get asbestos out of their houses.
Bobby Rush is no longer a Black Panther.
Sanders, Obama, Rush, and Lewis each made a decision that they wanted to work inside the political system to effect change.
That is a horse of a different color from working outside of the system to put pressure on politicians to effect change. And it does put one at a distance from the grassroots. (And there are black and white activists that have chosen to remain outside of the political system and to place public pressure from the outside).
John Lewis has not forgotten where he came from.
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Look at the way that Congressman Lewis nods his head as the consensus is taking place at Occupy Atlanta.
A lot of people condemned Occupy Atlanta for not allowing Lewis to speak. I never did. Lewis recognized the revolution that was taking place before his very eyes and understood his role in the revolution of that time.
For a moment, at NN, Bernie Sanders did not recognize the revolution that was taking place before his very eyes and in real time.
Barack Obama has had varied reactions to heckling and protests.
I thought that there were flaws in what Hillary Clinton said to BLM in their little meeting but what Clinton did get right was her specific role in that entire Democratic process; she IS the insider and can help them in certain ways but she needs them to do some things.
portlander23
(2,078 posts)I started listening to the Thom Hartmann Program when it was on i.e. America, so thats roughly in the 2003-2004 timespan. I dont recall when Bernie Sanders started taking calls on the show, but its probably safe to say that Ive been listening to him respond live to callers for about a decade.
The man is the real deal. I dont believe Ive ever heard him handle a question without making a caller, regardless of political persuasion, feel as though he respected them. Ive never heard a weasel answer. When he doesnt know something, he fesses up and says he doesnt know an answer. I completely understand why Hillary is not eager to schedule more debates. Bernie is sincere and really good on his feet.
And I think this is why if you go to a Sanders rally, youre gonna leave that rally in the tank for Bernie. I was in the tank before he formally announced, and as soon as I could, I committed to recurring donations. I want him to go all the way.
Theres something here though that I think is worth exploring or at least understanding. Bernies campaign cant be like Hillary Clintons campaign. Bernie is not kidding when he says he needs a political revolution to be elected. That means he needs people on the ground spreading the word. We have to be part if this, not observers, so its important to tackle race questions head on.
One of the most remarkable things about Bernie and his positions is that Ive found that people of various political persuasions tend to agree with him. Its one of the reasons why Bernie can carry conservatives in his state.
I do think there is some racial dimension here thats worth talking about. Reagan introduced a shift in America. Post Reagan, social programs became a bad thing and I think racism goes to the core of this. Conservatives are successful in getting people to vote against their best interests on programs like food stamps, medicaid, unemployment, educational spending. In Reagans America, social programs arent for the people by the people, theyre by the white people for the black welfare queens.
When conservatives attack social safety net programs, theres an ugly racial subtext, heck it isnt subtext at all. Nowadays they say Makers vs. Takers instead of Welfare Queen, but its the same racial undertone.
Welcome to "Post-Racial" America
What has been missed in the commentary and speculation about what lurks in the hearts of men like Bundy and Sterling is a wider critique about the connection between racial appeals and the other dominant right-wing trope: "makers" versus "takers." Central to the Right's ideology are the myths associated with rugged individualism, folks pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps, and a wholesale fetishizing of Ayn Rand's fictional portrait of capitalist society. This way of looking at the world by those in power creates a welcoming atmosphere for the idea of white victimization and the use of stereotypes that blame deficiencies in minority culture as the root cause of poverty.
Racism is the driving force that has enabled the dismantling of the New Deal and Great Society programs.
The War on Poverty vs. Racism
Citing the need to replace "despair with opportunity" 50 years ago this week President Lyndon Johnson declared a War on Poverty. His effort to roll back severe economic distress, along with a host of other Great Society programs, was the largest push to help Americans on the economic and racial margins since the Great Depression of the 1930s. Many of Johnson's programs were key to creating economic possibility for millions who had never known it, and a whole host of them such as HeadStart, Medicaid, food stamps, and loans for higher education continue to do that. Given the success of the War on Poverty, and with half of all Americans either poor, near poor or at risk of poverty, a vast array of policies to promote economic fairness is needed yet again. But given the image of Johnson's programs in the public mind, it may be that much harder to achieve them.
The key barrier to embracing the War on Poverty and to building public support for a renewed poverty effort is the fact that right from the start Johnson's program has been maligned and stereotyped beyond recognition, with race forming a key part of the insult. Given the development of the War on Poverty, that's no surprise.
In the 1980s President Ronald Reagan, who'd taken up the conservative mantle of Barry Goldwater, rode to the White House on a promise to reverse the War on Poverty. While at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Reagan often used rhetoric that was racialized to justify his move to curb certain anti-poverty programs and end others. To that end, the 39th president asserted incorrectly that the War on Poverty increased the number of poor, or of "dependency" as he called it, and that it encouraged black women in poverty to have children as teens.
With Reagan's narrative holding sway, Democratic President Bill Clinton came under pressure in election-year 1996 to "mend not end" Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), commonly known as welfare. The bill he signed effectively cancelled AFDC and welfare as it was known no longer exists.
Regans legacy is turning America against programs that benefit the people. This is the core issue that Democrats and liberals have struggled with since the 80s. But try though conservatives may, there are some programs that are hard to touch: Social Security and Medicare. Why? Well, in my estimation, its because everyone gets them.
I think we all recognize these signs. Its hard to attack Medicare because everyone gets it. Its hard to drive a racial wedge. Same with Social Security. Lets put aside the fact that white people get most of the benefits from any sort of safety net program. In a sense, these programs are perceived as color-blind.
Now back to Bernie. Why on earth can Bernie sell the social safety net to Democrats and Republicans? Why can he win back Reagan Democrats? I think its largely because the core of his arguments have been about economic justice, the kind of justice that is shared by everyone.
Breaking up the banks is good for the 99%.
A living wage is good for everyone.
Stopping free trade agreements protect jobs for everyone.
Free tuition is for any student.
Increasing Social Security means everyone gets an increase.
Giving Medicare to everyone means everyone gets healthcare.
You can convince a racist that the Affordable Care Act helps takers, but you cant tell them that the medicare they get victimizes them.
Ive listened to Bernie talk about this core economic justice agenda for years, and everyone loves it, even people who think food stamps are bad. To a certain extent this core economic agenda is perceived as color-blind. In many ways, Occupys notion of the 99% is color-blind.
Now this isnt to say that Mr. Sanders is racist, doesnt care about race issues, is out of touch, or anything like that. I think Bernie focuses about economic justice because thats been his core mission in life. And I think hes the best salesperson for that message since F.D.R.
And then we have this:
My first reaction to this was dont screw this up for Bernie. He is on your side. If he gets his economic justice agenda, we all win. Youre attacking the wrong person. He let you have the stage, he let you speak, why are you shooting down the one guy in the last thirty years who can turn the tide of Reaganism?
The thing that was hardest to reconcile is I consider myself on the protestors side.
Im not going to go into the protestors tactics, their choice of target, or any of that. What I eventually accepted is maybe a color-blind agenda is a way to win back Reagan Democrats, but a program based solely or mostly on economic justice cant be the answer. If we get the Sanders economic agenda, does it address the racist core that infects American life? Coming from Occupy and 99% thinking, I tended towards thinking it would all eventually shake out if we could solve the economic side.
BLM changed my mind. I was wrong. Im not going to speak to where Bernie was at. I can tell you from listening to the man for 10 years that he is not a racist, but racial justice has not been the thrust of most of his dialogue. Im not saying anything bad about the man, but I do think there was a valid critique of his campaign.
Bernie Sanders: structural racism needs to end for economic justice to succeed
It is time for the progressive movement to reckon with structural racism: its role in enabling it and its moral responsibility to actively dismantle it. Its not a request: its a requirement for all presidential candidates that seek progressive votes, and for a political movement that seeks any hope for relevance in a diverse America.
There is a political cost to creating silos within movements: politicians and citizens end up speaking of the same issues with different languages, with a lack of empathy and connection. Though Sanderss policy proposals likely align with number of black voters, his ability to address race is limited to the scope of wealth and the economy. But black voters and organizers need to know why they should fight for Bernie Sanders vision of our economic future when our humanity is in constant peril.
We do not need talking points. We need government to help save our lives, and we need to elect leaders who will champion our humanity.
This is what a fair critique of the Sanders campaign looks like, if not of the man personally. Its a fair critique of me too. To Mr. Sanders credit, hes taken the message to heart. Hes added racial justice to his platform. Bernies added racial justice to his speeches. Hes met with Black Lives Matter. This is the good thats come out of talking about racism.
Again, Im not making any claims on Bernie the person, but Bernie the campaign is better for all this. I do think he could dial down on the racial justice side of things and be more likely to win back Reagan Democrats who dont want to hear or think about race, but that would leave the job half done.
If Hillary Clinton is the nominee, I probably wont vote for her. Shes not interested in my economic justice agenda. And you know what? She probably doesnt need me. She has name recognition, a pile of Super PAC money, and Democratic insiders who will protect her from debates. Shell be just fine.
Bernie needs a movement. He needs people to contribute whatever they can afford. He need us to go door to door. We gotta talk to people. This isnt a metaphorical movement, this is people on the streets. And we have to make sure that Bernie is addressing both an economic and a racial justice agenda.
So, I dont want to hear Bernie supporters say lets not talk about race. I dont want us to tell BLM theyre attacking the wrong guy. If someone calls Bernie a racist, I dont want to not talk about it, I want to say thats bullshit, and heres why. If Bernies campaign, or me, is not doing enough for racial justice, I want people who get it to tell me what we need to do. If we're gonna work from the inside of the system, we sure as hell better listen to our family on the outside. If we can consistently do that, no one can wield race as a cudgel against us.
We are the 99%, but that doesnt mean we all have the same struggle. If were gonna win this thing, if were gonna be the movement we have be, then we have to let go of the perfect view of our candidate, of ourselves, and listen.