Hillary Clinton is now directly attacking Bernie's college plan, and the attacks are absurd

[gobears10]

Tweet 1

Clinton on Sanders' college plan: "I am not going to give free college to wealthy kids." Tacit charge that Sanders is overreaching.

Tweet 2

Clinton on Sanders' college plan: "He has to explain that and how it would be paid for and all the rest of it."

The plan is just to make public universities tuition-free regardless of the student's income, and Bernie has explained how to pay for it on the campaign trail; II can't tell you how many times I've heard the words "tax Wall Street speculation." A summary of Bernie's College for All Act can be found here, and that goes into way more detail:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/collegeforallsummary/?inline=file

Here's an excerpt:

This legislation is offset by imposing a Wall Street speculation fee on investment houses, hedge funds, and other speculators of 0.5% on stock trades (50 cents for every $100 worth of stock), a 0.1% fee on bonds, and a 0.005% fee on derivatives. It has been estimated that this provision could raise hundreds of billions a year which could be used not only to make tuition free at public colleges and universities in this country, it could also be used to create millions of jobs and rebuild the middle class of this country.

[TM99]

1. The dirty campaigning we all knew was coming

has arrived.

First, it was the surrogates.

Then, it was the Super PAC.

Now, it is the Clinton campaign itself.

I will be so grateful when she either loses the primary or the general and the Clintons are gone from electoral politics once and for all.

[CountAllVotes]

2. +1

YUP!

Sanders 2016!!!

& recommend!!

[Bohemianwriter]

19. I hope you are ready...

To give Hillary an onslaught and punish her and her undemocratic tactics. I hope you will go after Debbie W.S. for masquerading as a democrat when she is really a corporate dictator.

Bernie doesn't go dirty. But you, the voters are free to heckle, troll, interrupt, and generally make them both look bad....

I hope you will kick out the entire DNC and replace them with real progressives and punish them like the teabaggers punished the GOP.

I feel a revolution is brewing. I feel it in my left testicle.

[Tom Rinaldo]

47. Good Grief. This isn't an example of dirty campaigning. The Super PAC thing was dirty.

I'm with Bernie on his college plan of course but the fact that she doesn't make his case on this is not an example of dirty campaigning.

[TM99]

48. We disagree then.

Passive aggressiveness and distortions/lies are dirty campaigning.

She didn't have to communicate that way, and that is the point.

She could have discussed her own plan. She could have challenged directly his facts with her own. She did neither.

[ljm2002]

91. When she says "he has to explain how he will pay for it"...

...she is implying that he has not done so. But Bernie has explained how he will pay for it, from the very first day he came out with his plan for free tuition at public colleges and universities.

That is LYING. LYING is DIRTY. Ergo, this is DIRTY CAMPAIGNING.

No one expects her to make Bernie's case. But lying about another candidate goes beyond not making their case.

[Tom Rinaldo]

108. I get that

I just reserve the term "Dirty campaigning" for far far stronger stuff than this. Maybe if she had said instead "He has no way to pay for it" I might use that term. Dirty is spreading false rumors about John McCain having a black love child baby like happened in the 2000 Republican South Carolina primary. Dirty is what the Pro Hillary Super PAC just pulled on Bernie with trying to tie him to supporting Hugo Chavez because Bernie backs a heating oil for the poor program.

Honestly it isn't that much of a stretch to say that Bernie does have to explain to the public how he will pay for his tuition free plan because the public still needs to be educated about it and most people don't read the text of position papers. Hillary just gave him a perfect opening to do just that. Bernie can do.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs because like most people I'm naturally jaded about politics. If that was an attack on Bernie it was a puff ball by today's standards - it was not character assassination nor even a distortion of what Bernie is advocating for. I've seen so much worse than this, including from Team Hillary in the past. But then again that is one of the reasons why I am so drawn to Bernie Sanders - he doesn't even engage in puff ball false attacks on opponents.

[awoke_in_2003]

162. Welcome to politics...

99.9% would lie about what day of the week it is. Bernie is the exception.

[ljm2002]

163. Gosh, really?

Doesn't mean we can't point it out when we see it.

[bvar22]

132. You don't believe that LYING about Bernie not having a plan

when,in fact, he has a very good plan to pay for it all.
You don't believe that is dirty politics?

Hillary should remember that these tweets are now Public Record.
She can't waffle about them.
She made up the LIES, and them wrote them down....forever.

I have never supported an outright Liar for anything.

[Tom Rinaldo]

135. I explained my feelings in a post reply above

I have nothing to add to that. I'm supporting Bernie and the way he has chosen to do his own campaigning reflects one of the many good reasons why he is my own chosen candidate

[qazplm]

52. how is this dirty?

You disagree with it, but how is it dirty?

Let me ask a different way, what possible criticisms can Hillary make of Bernie, that you would find clean and fair?

I suspect the answer is none.

[TM99]

56. You obviously didn't read my posts.

I clearly state how she could communicate the differences without the lies, distortion of facts, and passive aggressive snark.

Try again.

[Nay]

61. Because Bernie has already said many times how he would finance it -- the .5% transaction tax

on financial trades. It's "dirty" because it insinuates that he hasn't already said how he plans to finance the project.

[A Simple Game]

67. That's not dirty and if you think that is dirty you are in for some serious disappointments. n/t

[Nay]

77. It's certainly not as dirty as, say, swiftboating, but really, if she wanted to play it

straight, all she had to do was explain how his transaction tax was the wrong way to do it, and explain how she would pay for it. See how easy and straightforward that is?

This is why Bernie gets all the props for being honest and straightforward and she doesn't.

[TM99]

82. Exactly.

She could make her point without all of the passive aggressive snark and lies.

[ljm2002]

95. Lying is dirty...

...even in politics.

No, it's not the worst thing we've seen or will see. But it is dirty.

[A Simple Game]

100. I didn't see any lie, please elaborate. n/t

[ljm2002]

145. "He has to explain how he will pay for it"

Bernie has explained how he will pay for it from the day he proposed it.

[A Simple Game]

147. But it doesn't make the statement a lie. But I see your point.

And I agree, he has to explain how he will pay for it. That he has already done so doesn't make it a lie, it just makes Hillary look stupid for not knowing he has. Or in this case not admitting he has. I know many consider omission to be a lie, I don't, but I do consider it deceitful.

We need to save our energy, it will get much worse, she's just warming up. But it probably is a good idea to push back from the start so they don't get too brave with their exaggerations, omissions, and lies.

[Nay]

76. Uh, Ronnie-Mr-21-posts, we're not talking about the TAX being dirty, we're talking about

Ms Clinton's declaration that Bernie hasn't said how he plans to pay for free college. He HAS declared his plan, and she is acting like he hasn't, which is dirty.

Reading comprehension fail, Ronnie.

[Wankle Ronnie]

78. That's right...

I don't HEAR how Clinton plans how to finance her idea.
.
Edit: Nay, I needed more coffee. Sorry

[Nay]

97. Forgiven! And welcome to DU. I raise my cup of coffee to yours this morning!

[ljm2002]

94. She lies when she claims he has not explained how he will pay for it...

...and that is dirty.

It's really not that hard, people.

If she had stopped at "I won't make college free for rich kids", that would not have been dirty.

But Hillary, of course, did not stop there. She just had to go on and say he must "explain how he will pay for it". But he has said exactly how he will pay for it, and he has done so from day one. That makes Hillary a liar.

[jwirr]

148. How about one that contains the truth. Bernie presented

a plan a long time ago.

[woodsprite]

80. If she's the Dem candidate for the general, she better win it.

I don't want any of those rightwing nutjobs getting the Presidency.

[TM99]

81. She won't.

Too many progressives whether in the Democratic Party or not will just simply not vote for her.

[arcane1]

102. Mere days after she said she wouldn't do it. Another lie. n/t

[Scootaloo]

103. This isn't dirty campaigning. It's just stupid

Sort of like when Clinton likened Obama's foreign policy proposals to George W. Bush's. That wasn't "Dirty" either, it was Clinton going after Obama's proposals - in a fucking stupid way, yes, but not a DIRTY way.

Dirty was when she was demanding he condemn Louis Farrakhan's endorsement of Obama (after Obama had already rejected it)

All this after, of course, swearing off negative ads. Times, they don't change much do they?

[TM99]

109. Dirty campaigning, going negative, being stupid.

Take your pick.

But you know she did make a pledge just awhile ago that she would be above all of this.

[FloridaBlues]

130. Asking questions is horrible!

What makes you think this tax increase for Wall Street will pass?
We can't even get congress to pass a highway plan to repair roads.

[TM99]

133. Asking questons is fine.

She didn't ask a question. She made statements that were distortions of the facts he present.

What makes me think this tax increase on Wall Street will pass?

Well, golly gee, I guess we should just not even try because nothing will pass!

[jwirr]

149. You know there is nothing certain but death and taxes. What

makes you think she is going to be able to get anything passed if she is elected? The Rs hate her.

As to how it is done. Well we are not only going to elect a president this time we are going to take back the Senate and then we are going to help the president get his programs through the House. We are the movement.

If we cannot do that - at lease we have the veto and an executive order.

[INdemo]

3. I'm just curious which corporate mafia member

or Bank or deep pockets contributor wrote this script for her?
Bill Clinton maybe?
She is the biggest phony ever to run as a Democrat?

[Unknown Beatle]

16. "She is the biggest phony ever to run as a Democrat?"

Well, if she isn't the biggest phony, she's certainly in the top three.

As I've said before, she tries to talk the talk of a populist, but she fails to walk the walk. In other words, a true phony.

[INdemo]

17. She was against the Iraq war before it

Last edited Wed Sep 23, 2015, 07:40 AM - Edit history (1)

was what she thought in her best interests to be for it.
If she is elected she will backtrack because her corporate sponsors want this Keystone PL approved.

Obama was against off shore drilling,against using Soc Security,Medicare as a budget bargaining chip,he was for Unions right to strike and said he would walk a picket line to show his support .These and many more issues that came to be he ignored once elected.Hillary will be worse that Obama because she is totally owned by the corporate mafia.

Obama made us believe all his BS and Hillary will never convince me she is actually against the Keystone,the TPP or any
corporate want list items.

Yes Hillary Clinton is a Phony

This issue about Bernie Sanders and the college tuition issue..well she needs to get her facts straight before the Bernie bashing but then along with the corporate script she read, Bill probably had a hand in these underhanded politics.

Tell you what listen to Bernie and then listen and watch Hillary as she gives a speech.If Hillary didn't have a teleprompter or a corporate script she would be totally lost.

But wait,before Hillary said she would have to see the final agreement before deciding about the Keystone. As Sec of State she was for the Keystone.
Now that she is down in the polls (well I forgot, the majority of 392 voters over 50 said they were with Hillary)
she is against the Keystone. ...Corporate rhetoric.

[CanadaexPat]

39. Bill made money off for-profit schools.

So of course she's against free public schools.

[Betty Karlson]

4. Taking the low road now? Mrs. Clinton is sorely disappointing.

These gutter politics campaigns are so last century.

[TM99]

5. Well, you know, HRC is

basically a super-hero.

She survived sniper fire, got a hedge-fund manager to lower a drug price with one Tweet, and now she will single-handedly figure out how to end student debt for the next generation.

[tecelote]

6. We knew it was coming.

Hillary is acknowledging that Bernie is a threat.

Now, let's have some real debates. What's she afraid of?

[Betty Karlson]

7. The debates, obviously:

No time to confer with focus groups.

[SusanCalvin]

25. I can't wait to see her taken apart on October 13.

Very politely and strictly on the issues, of course.

Hey, everybody for Bernie - set up a watch party!
https://go.berniesanders.com/page/event/create

[secondwind]

8. We should donate $25 to the Sanders campaign every time Hillary lashes out like this. I'm

tired of her, she just doesn't resonate with me, neither of them do... Bernie and Elizabeth are the future of this party.

[tblue]

53. ^^THIS^^

Some of us can't afford that. But even $1-$2 would make a statement. Great idea & clever way to turn attacks into a bonus.

[99Forever]

65. I only wish I could.

Unfortunately the Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama economy has left me and my family struggling just to survive. The $25 a month we do now is no where what I wish we could.

[jwirr]

150. Just $3.00 would do it.

[restorefreedom]

9. regarding tweet one

if the ruling class were paying their true fair share of taxes, then college for their kids would be appropriate too imo, because their parents would be financing it indirectly through the heavy tax on their financial activities

also, if we are able to do something about the obscene cost of c and u education and lower it, the " free" part won't seem as extreme since it wont be as expensive

when the disgusting wealth disparity is addressed, the "free" stuff will be more appropriate for everyone because of the heavy tax burden that will be visited upon the uber rich

this tweet says to me that she doesn't get that at all and plans to do nothing about "wealthy" kids or the underlying inequality. otherwise, the sentiment expressed would make little sense.

[djean111]

10. I agree. n/t

[elehhhhna]

12. Tweet 1 - my 1st thought upon reading

Is that wealthy kids are on her mind. Full stop.

[Scuba]

14. /\_/\_This right here_/\_/\

[hootinholler]

21. UM, about that tweet one

What rich kid is going to a public school of any stripe?

Seems like they go to Harvard or Yale or Stanford or Princeton or ... Not many at Penn State or U of Md. etc.

In any event, college is apropos for all who want to go. This should also cover trade schools as well.

[restorefreedom]

36. it probably would not even affect them anyway

cuz right..the rich don't use public schools or colleges

i like the trade school idea

[jwirr]

151. The trade school is a must. Most state colleges are now

connected with what we used to call trade schools - here in MN we call it all the University of MN schools.

[restorefreedom]

152. in the new world economy

i really think trade is where it's at. A lot of jobs can be outsourced, but people still need electricians plumbers mechanics and the like. and imo if Bernie is not elected, I think it will only get worse.

[RufusTFirefly]

43. In fairness, there are some top-notch public universities

Berkeley immediately springs to mind. Also, University of Michigan and UCLA. Just to name a few.

Even now, "public" doesn't automatically mean inferior or sub-standard. Or affordable for that matter. What a lot of public universities are doing is preferencing students from out of the state or out of the country because it enables them to charge higher tuition. Yet another flaw in the system that would go away under Bernie's plan.

[hootinholler]

54. Absolutely there are

I wasn't trying to denigrate public schools, just pointing out that the hoi poloi value prestige over curriculum and would be unlikely allow their precious to go to a state school.

[Chitown Kev]

124. One of the Bush twins and

George P. Bush and John Ellis Bush graduated from the University of Texas.

The issue of the "hoi polloi" being easily guided into the University of Illinois has been a huge issue in Illinois.

Do you think that a Stanford degree is that much more highly regarded than a degree from the University of California at Berkeley; long considered to be perhaps the best public university in the world?

[hootinholler]

137. Do *I* think that?

Not only no but hell no.

Do I think the hoi polloi think that? Yes I do.

[Chitown Kev]

142. I mean we aren't talking about

the difference, say, between Harvard and UMass-Amherst

I'm not sure (unless said "hoi polloi" was a graduate of Stanford) that an undergraduate degree from Stanford is regarded as that much more valuable than a degree from Berkeley.

and it could be the case (as it often is...or used to be anyway) that depending on what is being studied, that what a public university offers is better than what a private school offers, whether it's undergrad, grad, or professional...so a lot depends, too, on the rep of a certain school within a particular field.

as far as various connections are concerned...well, yes, I would agree with you.

[SusanCalvin]

26. Exactly.

That tweet doesn't say she cares about us peons, it says she doesn't get it.

[hedda_foil]

90. The truly rich generally don't send their precious pumpkins to public universities anyway.

It's Harvard, Yale, Princeton, via legacy admission if the parents went there (see Bush, George W). And lesser private colleges if they flunk out (see Cheney, Richard Bruce)

[RufusTFirefly]

11. Hillary shouldn't worry

Rich kids like Chelsea can still pay a fortune to go to private universities like Stanford if they'd like.

Public anything almost always gives free stuff to rich people as it provides greater access to all. Should there be means-testing to determine whether or not you should have to pay a premium for the books you borrow from your public library? Of course not. That would be absurd. The value of public institutions is that they not only provide opportunities for those who could otherwise not afford them, but also that they create an atmosphere of unity and inclusion, which is good for the overall health and morale of our country.

[restorefreedom]

15. good point

the "wealthy kids" that she refers to have almost 0 chance of utilizing this anyway, since they would not likely stoop to go to school with the great unwashed masses. they can still pay the fees for ivy league, although hopefully even they will be lower as reforms and appropriate taxes on private universities instead of govt freebies kick in.

its a red herring, as usual.

[SusanCalvin]

27. It's not just a red herring.

It's a red flag that she just doesn't get it.

[RufusTFirefly]

35. I think she gets it. She's just deliberately sowing FUD.

"What's this? Bernie Sanders, the supposed champion of the poor and middle class, is providing additional benefits for the rich? How politically naive of him!"

Another benefit of Bernie's proposal that should not be overlooked is this: A universal approach to public colleges and universities will greatly simplify the admissions process for those institutions and eliminate a huge bureaucracy that has built up to provide grants and other financial aid to poor students who couldn't otherwise even consider attending college.

As with single-payer health care, much of the administrative overhead is eliminated so in each case the focus can go where it belongs: on providing quality health care and a quality education.

[restorefreedom]

38. very true

simplification often means reduced cost, which is hard to imagine for those who profit off the higher ed bureaucratic gravy train

[JDPriestly]

66. You should start a thread about ending the financial aid and tuition bureaucracy.

What Clinton is missing is that money invested in the stock market is money that is spent discretionarily.

It is either noney saved by the middle-class or for the most part investment by the very rich. And many of the trades on Wall Street, the futures, the hedges, etc. are neüver completed.

The rich who now pay for their children's education without borrowing would simply pay for their child's education through a tax rather than by check. No loss to tgat parent.

What Berbie's idea does is eliminate the need for a poor or middle-class kid to have to pay a penalty, a lot of interest on student loans, in order to get the same kind of education a rich gets with no interest, without borrowing.

The bills for college will be paid but out of investment money when it is not needed for someone's survival.

Bernie's idea iis great. His point is that no child should write off being able to go to college because of a lack of money.

I agree with Bernie.

Hillary is out of touch on this one.

Nobody should have to fill out all those invasive student loan forms to go to a publc college.

Oh! But of course, the Clintons never had to do that!

Paying for college was no problem for them!

I hate to take this to such a personal level, but I will never forget that moment of truth when I filled out those forms. For people in low-paid professions, or others in financially difficult situations, that moment when you have to admit to your child how really poor you arre is painful. And then to know that your child's future is at stake

I suspect that Bernie knows what that feels like first hand. And Jane, his wife, was a college administrator.. The Sanders know what they are talking about on this issue. does not. Hillary does not.

And Hillary is not thinking at all about people who get laid off in their 40s or 50s and need to return to school and borrow against their Social Security to do it.

This is yet another example of shallow reasoning and superficial ubderstanding on Hillary's part. It ts another Iraq War vote. She does not ask the right questions. Education through the highest level should be not just the right but the responsibility of every American. We should give each other thev opportunitty to be the best we can be.

Hillary just does. Not get it!

Bernie does!

[George II]

159. "money invested in the stock market is money that is spent discretionarily."????

Have you spoken to any retirees or senior citizens recently?

[JDPriestly]

161. I am a retiree. If you are lucky enough to save enough, to have a job that pays enough to

permit you to save some, your savings are left over after you have paid for your necessities.

Thus the money you can afford to save is discretionary money. And, I'n sure that the Pope would agree that those who are lucky enough to earn enough to permit them to save for incpme in retirement beyond Social Security should give back through the program Bernie is suggesting.

It is a way to say thank you to our country and to the young people who will contribute in their turn as educated woRking people and entrpreneurs to the prosperity and wealth of our country.

[arcane1]

106. Exactly! Trying to win a class war against Bernie f-ing Sanders is a fool's errand.

And that's precisely what tweet 1 was: an attempt to say "Sanders favors the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class".


That's not just a low blow, it's a hateful lie.

And people really want this person running the country???

[dsc]

55. that is baldly false

Many state schools are incredibly prestigious and attract many wealthy people. Ohio State, UNC Chapel Hill, University of Michigan, Berkely to name a few.

[restorefreedom]

62. if that is case

then at least admission can become competitive based on grades, etc instead of the ability to pay.

[Chitown Kev]

127. and this gets to be a problem

not so much at a school like UNC-Chapel Hill which by law designates that 80-90% of its' students must come from North Carolina.

This is a problem at the University of Michigan though simply because there are out-of-state students paying private school tuition to attend the school, so much that U of M now has more out-of-state students than in-state students...and one the biggest alumni bases in the country.

I casually know a somewhat well-off family here in Illinois that sends their kids to Indiana University-Bloomington (as opposed to the University of Illinois) because dad is an Indiana alum.

[restorefreedom]

134. family legacy bullshit

has been a problem for a long time. i hope as c and u reform, that some schools will consider changing their admissions to favor in state students. the other possibility is to make all state universities free for students from any state. then it wil be competitive admission based on performance.

[Chitown Kev]

136. But then they wouldn't be state universities any more, right?

Individual states do fund these schools in various degrees...

BTW, even The University of Michigan does favor in-state students, esp. for undergrad.

I don't think that the entire dimension of the problem is fleshed out but Hillary Clinton does make a point.

After all, under Sanders scenario, why SHOULD a kid from a rich family choose Chicago or Northwestern or (if admissions is a problem) DePaul when that kid can go for free to the University of Illinois either at the Urbana or the Chicago campus...both UIUC and UIC are pretty damn good public universities, actually.

[restorefreedom]

140. there are definitely kinks that would have to be worked out

and i certainly do not have the solutions. but i like the idea of a university education or the vocational equivalent be available to everyone who meets the academic threshold regardless of finances.

and i do belive that the wealthy will still want the prestige of their kids going to certain schools that may or may not be state run.

that will have to be worked out i suppose

[Chitown Kev]

144. I don't disagree with you

I do think that Hillary's tweet makes somewhat of a fair w/r/t the complexity of the problem but I see that everyone here is all caught in "she attacked BERNIE" rather than looking at the complex dimensions of the issue.

For example:

If one of these "rich kids" parents actually lives in Michigan and the kid is well qualified to go to the University of Michigan, I don't see much of a problem with that kid going to the University of Michigan for free...and if his/her parents want to send the kid to...I don't know, Harvard or Williams, then that's on them.

But...rich people like free shit, too...

[restorefreedom]

146. always hard to know

if rich people like free shit more or less than they like reputation. i am counting on the elite desire to "be better than" driving them to keep sending their progeny to elite universities, which will help keep the fed/state system (however they work it) intact. of course, i hope that higher level instituitions will still admit students with scholarships or those who are willing to assume debt in order to have "harvard" on their transcripts. we have to make sure this doesn.t devolve to "only the rich can go to harvard."

there won't be a perfect solution, but hopefully one that gets more kids through college.

[juajen]

101. Hmm, I have an idea.

Why don't we just kill all the wealthy and their children so we can never be faced again with people who have it easier than us, or who might be smarter. Who needs them anyway. They contribute nothing to our country.

Somebody is playing us for fools, and some of you are just buying into it like fools, or we are being manipulated by someone who stands to gain if they destroy Hillary Clinton.

Use the brain God gave you, please. Im getting pretty sick of a Democratic Underground that tries to destroy democrats. Are yall feeling the tugs at your back as youre being turned into puppets.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Holeee cow. You brought a whole busload of strawmen to this thread.

[restorefreedom]

113. with a trailer in tow. nt

[beam me up scottie]

114. And just look at the mess:

[restorefreedom]

115. awwwww, man

i just put on a clean shirt.....

[beam me up scottie]

116. I think that poster was hauling used straw too, that was a pretty smelly load.

[restorefreedom]

118. indeed :) nt

[restorefreedom]

112. i like a good reductio ad absurdum

as much as the next person. but i don't see how my argument "destroys" democrats. hillarys tweet said she did not want to give free college tuition to wealthy kids as an apparent criticism of bernies plan. my argument was that

a) the wealthy are unlikely to utilize free state college in significant numbers anyway
b) there has to be c and u cost reform because higher ed is making too much profit and people are graduating with way too much debt
c) wealth and income inequality has to be dealt with, and when it is, such a plan will make sense for everyone
d) "wealthy" kids would be entitled to this benefit if they wanted and it would be completely apporpriate because their parents, through much higher taxes on their financial activities, would be indirectly helping to subsidize it.

in what way is any of this not using the brain "that God gave me" , becoming a puppet or "destroying dems." ? and as far as the great conspiracy to destroy hillary clinton, you guys are the ones who keep bringing it up...i am just trying to have a policy discussion.

[LondonReign2]

164. Well your last sentence explains it all

The absolute LAST thing the Clinton supporters want is a policy discussion.

I've asked Clinton supporters repeatedly about policy issues and nothing shuts down the conversation more quickly.

[restorefreedom]

166. i have tried too

and not only can i rarely get a response on the policy issue, i get accused of being part of the grand plan to deny the presidency to hillary or of denying the reality of some "heinous" vote by bernie, or have to defend somethig he said 30 years ago which was taken completely out of context.

[jwirr]

153. We are one of the only developed countries that do not send

their kids to college free. If they can do it we can also and it is my guess that they have already worked out these issues.

Juajen I am curious - I think I saw you arguing on another post as a Bernie supporter. Are you playing both sides against the middle? Sorry if I am wrong. Just that you have a unique user name.

[elehhhhna]

155. Lmao you are imaginative

[Paka]

13. Off topic, I realize,

but I am waiting for her back-stepping on the Keystone. She can't defy her wallstreet backers and just let it go!

[mdbl]

18. She'll just change her mind after being elected

That's what I can see happening. After she's elected she'll come out with a "I've had to reconsider" statement on Keystone.

[SusanCalvin]

28. Yep.

I don't care how far she gets pushed to the left, if elected she'll spring back to the right.

[n2doc]

32. The secret there is that Keystone is not economically viable w cheap oil

The Investor class knows this. It is not a problem for them.
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2014/12/03/Why-Keystone-XL-Pipeline-Already-Dead

[tularetom]

86. Yup, Hillary Clinton knows it too, hence her "brave" opposition to the project

Doesn't take much courage to come out against something that will never be built.

The market took her off the hook.

[madokie]

20. Bernie has it figured out for the most part

The sooner people figure that out the better we as a country will be for it. Good old common sense is worth all the schemes in world put together with a shitpot full left over.
Bernie is our next President, hide and watch.

Hillary will never get even close to the oval office. that you can take to the bank

Nominate Hillary and our worst fears will be realized, 'CONs will come out of the woodwork to vote against her as well as a lot of dems too.
Read my sig line for a hint as to what I'll do, k

[leftofcool]

22. Good for Hillary!

[cali]

75. she is wrong. I don't care about her attack, but it's simply goofy.

But you have to be informed to understand that, cool.

[nichomachus]

126. Definitely. She's sticking to the low road -- at least she's consistent n/t

[George II]

23. That is "attacking"?

[SusanCalvin]

29. Well, not very effectively, so that's OK. nt

[liberal N proud]

33. That was my first thought when I open the thread

Where are the attacks?

How dare anyone ask questions.

[George II]

87. If those are "attacks" then Sanders has been attacking Clinton, and Democrats in general.....

.....for a LONG time!

[beam me up scottie]

93. So she's a little rusty, I'm sure she'll get back to her 2008 fighting form soon enough.

It's going to be tough to top her "Hard-Working Americans, White Americans" comment, though.

[George II]

98. As a matter of fact, Sanders has been more critical of Clinton than vice versa.

He's also made a career of criticizing the party from whom he's now asking to nominate him for President.

I guess he's "evolved"?

[beam me up scottie]

99. Bernie criticizes her stance on the issues, he's not running a racist campaign like she did in 2008.

I guess we'll see if she evolved or if Clintonian tactics will be used to swift boat her opponents this time around as well.

[George II]

119. This is 2015. Are you implying that Clinton is running a racist campaign?

There you go again, saying nasty things about her and when called out on it you'll respond, "did I say that?"

You've got that Rovian thing down pat.

[beam me up scottie]

120. Read my post again and get back to me, George.

Let me know what you think I said, I love it when you do that.

[George II]

122. Just as I predicted - backing off from what you said as though you never said it.

Beam, you've got that routine down pat.

[beam me up scottie]

123. Point out where I implied "that Clinton is running a racist campaign" George.

Put up or shut up, I'm tired of you trying to put words in my mouth.

I'll wait.

[arcane1]

107. It's not an attack, it's a lie.

Another lie.

[reformist2]

24. Wall Street loves shackling people with debt. Of course they hate the idea of free universities.

[RufusTFirefly]

49. Indeed. It's a double whammy for them.

Not only does it liberate students from crushing debt but it also taxes speculators.

It's bad news for Wall Street greed but a big win for the country as a whole.

If this is a true democracy, where every citizen's opinion had equal weight at election time, I think there's no question as to the outcome.

But, alas, that's a great big "if."

[moobu2]

30. Good.

About time she responds to all the attacks from Mr. everything will be free for everybody.

[Jackilope]

31. Several times he has addressed how it would be paid for.

Wall Street speculation tax.

His ideas aren't extreme or outlandish. Look at Scandanavian countries. My friends in Germany and Scotland also maintained grades and went to public university.

The only thing the USA is thumbs up on funding is war. Who is hawkish and ready to continue war? Your candidate.

[riversedge]

44. If asked a question by the autdiance-would you want Sanders to explain how Hillary's

plan would be paid for? I think it is appropriate to defer to Sander or his plan to be more accurate.

[think]

42. "Mr. Everything will be free." Like touting those right wing talking points do ya?

[JDPriestly]

73. Bernie's plan does not make education "free."

College still will be paid for by all who are wealthy enough to trade on the varios investment markets.

What Bernie's plan does is ti ELIMINATE The PREMIUM that poorer students now pay for education at state schools.

The unfair PREMIUM in the form of interst paid on the borrowed tuition money.

Bernie's plan means that the rich parents who now pay for their child's education out of their checking account pay for the child's education at a state school when they pay the tax on their investmennt trades.

Hillary just doesn't get it.

Bernie"s plan is solid and fair for all. Why should rich parents have to pay twice? No means testing. Means testing will perpetuate the idea that education is a priivilege that the rich give the poor rather than that education is the equal wealth and benefit for all of us. Education is a responsibility the student owes to society and a trust that society owes to tge student.

Hillary just does not understand this.

I cannot vote for her. Just more of the same mistakes. As with so many other issues, Hillary will be apologizing about being wrong on this before long.

[ibegurpard]

96. Oh she gets it

The financial industry does not want to lose the income from a lifetime of student loan payments.

[CanadaexPat]

34. 'I am not going to give social security to wealthy people.'

And thus it begins.

[WinkyDink]

37. Campaigning against free college? Way to get the Youth Vote, Hillary!

[abelenkpe]

104. +1000

[magical thyme]

40. I hope that along with replying here, everybody has taken a moment to tweet back!

It took me less than a minute to reply to both tweets from my antique laptop!

GO FOR IT! CORRECT THE RECORD!!!!!

[Geronimoe]

41. She is being pushed to the left

If she gets the nomination, she'll shift right of center. And if elected, she'll be a puppet spinning around to please her $2 billion worth of donors. Hillary was wrong on Iraq, wrong on single payer healthcare reform. A politically correct train wreck.

It is inconceivable that a Clinton is consider viable when they brought us the 2008 economic meltdown. Bill was Mr. WTO, greasing the skids to ship factory and jobs overseas. And of course Hillary was greasing the skids to pass TPP, NAFTA on steroids.

[Skwmom]

45. But she'll vote to give tax breaks to the wealthiest among us.

H.R. 4853
Bernie: Yes, Hillary: No.

The 2010 extension of tax cuts didn't just continue the tax cuts for billionaires and millionaires enacted under George W. Bush. It expanded them, allowing inheritance of estates of up to 10 million dollars tax-free, and deepening special tax favors for investors. The legislation also undermined the integrity of Social Security by creating a new standard of low funding for the Social Security trust fund, exposing Social Security to new charges of being unsustainably funded.

Senator Sanders has acted progressively by voting NO, against this regressive measure.
http://thatsmycongress.com/senate/senatorBernardSandersVT111.html

[blackspade]

46. I guess only wealthy kids go to public colleges?

[Cheese Sandwich]

50. This is a chance for Sanders say a reason why it should be free for everyone.

She raises a fair point and this should be a central issue of the campaign.

Why should we have universal provision of public education regardless of income?

Why should it be provided to everybody equally without regard to ability to pay?

If Bernie Sanders has a good answer for that question he can win that point.

[countryken]

51. Hillary vs. Bernie

As a Bernie Sanders supporter, I'm not outraged by this. Hillary is disagreeing with Bernie regarding his education plan. There are a number of topics on which they disagree. She is doing it in a rather caustic manner, much like 'traditional' presidential candidates. She did this when she ran against Obama and I'm not surprised she's doing it now. It's just her way of campaigning, much like every other candidate we've seen over the years.

The issue she'll have to address is the second part of the equation. How will this be funded. Bernie's investment tax proposal makes a whole lot of sense, and I suspect Hillary opposes it, and she'll have to address this at the debate.

I would rather see all Democratic candidates take the high road (like Bernie does), and I'd like to see all Democrats/progressives take the high road in on-line discussions.

Ultimately, I plan to support Bernie throughout this campaign, but if Hillary does capture the nomination, I will support her enthusiastically over any republican. We cannot let them take the White House.

[Eric J in MN]

57. According to Hillary Clinton's logic, we should charge for K-12 public schools

...because otherwise the wealthy get to use public schools for free.

[HereSince1628]

58. Well, she can't win on this...

Her other option was to steal it as her own idea.

lose-lose.

In the end she went with an appeal to class prejudice.

[turbinetree]

63. Ms. Clinton.................................

Bernie Sanders touts and I agree with him that in Europe especially in Denmark they basically have free education (it costs every citizen of the country around 900 dollars, and they make sure that the students get either a technical, apprenticeship program, or higher education in a university-------not bad for 900 bucks a year) ------------

If you were to look at that plan being used in Denmark and other European countries that have Democratic --Socialists governments you can see how education is not only helping the country but also helping everyone with there lives-----------------when compared to this system we are falling further and further behind---------------why may you ask-----------------for profit universities, politicians screaming that the Department of public education should be disbanded and that education should be a voucher system and that teachers ( if you are Union) that are taking money out of there own pockets to teach children to get ahead are being attacked as being worthless------------way to go America, but whats really important is that you now have a sitting right wing governor------who is a zero rated one from Wisconsin , just gutted over 350 million from education and you have a one in Kansas that is doing the same thing.
And just for giggles in the red state of Michigan they just went out and got a former professional football coach and gave him over just like in Kansas and spent over 3 to 6 million a year just to get a head coach and to top it all off Michigan spent over 60 million on a new stadium.
While down in the professional ranks the taxpayers are footing privately held stadiums being built with public tax dollars instead of putting the money into education ---------------do you see what I mean, that's a failure in my book, robbing peter to pay the wealthy to get a tax break.

This is one of the primary reasons why I support Bernie Sanders he has a plan------------------it's called making those that don't pay there fair share start paying for there fair share---------------we are in this boat together.

So in closing why don't you call for the debates and expand them with Bernie and others now instead of waiting , this issue and others are kinda important, instead of of what is now transpiring





Honk--------------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

[restorefreedom]

117. exactly! plus a jillion

if they were having debates, we could all be talking about this like grown ups, instead of watching a tweetstorm.

but this is the way the clintons wage war.....not directly where they have to be confronted in real time, but with back and frorth jabs, so their every response can be rehearsed. it is easy to look tough when your opponent is in another state and cannot engage in real time.

i wonder if this is how she would deal with foreign leaders.....a tv jabfest?

[turbinetree]

141. Common sense ............................

says that when you have debates, it willows out the has been's, since half of them talk out of both sides of there proverbial mouths and pander, just to pander.

Sanders has said to the DNC right along with O'Malley this is outrageous , when the MSM is rolling in millions of dollars to do nothing but talk right wing stuff and how they are doing in polls-is quite tiring they have NOTHING.

Critical thinking needs to be in play in this election.
We have a U.S Supreme court and Reaganomics that has been giving these same owners of these teams the means to under mine wages, living conditions, create homelessness, and to top it all off they get seasonal workers selling peanuts at fifteen dollars a bag and getting a tax break to boot and attack social programs to undermine the citizens of the country and blame them for the problems-------------amazing.

While in Denmark the citizens of that country went through the "Enlightenment Period" and said we are going to be a progressive country, and the people over there in there studies are always near or at the top on what they have and what they get and they smile more.

Not in this country we have a Congress that is, and all of the MSM pundits trying to divide and conqueror, and blame the social ills on this country on the backs of the citizens.
When the educational base is being put up for sale to the highest bidder, that is a problem a big problem.
This election is about social responsibilities and principles to move this country forward.

Sanders has not taken as of today, created a PAC, and he has only taken small donors cash to get him to where he is----that's is his principles and this is why when I get a DNC e-mail I tell them no and the reason DWS and I will give money only to Sanders.

I got off on another rant--------------but it is amazing how the Dutch at one point in the late 1800's finally figured out they needed "ENLIGHTENMENT", this country in my opinion has no clue what it means--------------they talk the talk and try to do the walk but they have not figured out how to both at the same time.
And in my humble opinion I have been a democratic -socialists my entire life, because of my parents and I am extremely grateful to how they taught me to care and Sanders does this, he misses sometimes but at least he tries


Honk-------------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

[Skwmom]

64. Do your really think a lot of the wealthy are sending their kids to public universities?

Harvard, Standford, etc. are all PRIVATE.

And since the Ivy League accepted Bush, the standard can't be to high for getting in when you are from a wealthy family.

[Chitown Kev]

131. The University of Texas has accepted multiple Bushes

and multiple Bushes have gone there.

[Autumn]

68. She doesn't pay attention to what's going on then. Bernie has said how it would be paid for.

[nichomachus]

128. She knows damn well what he said

She's counting on her supporters not to know. They are so blinded with Hillary worship, they are unaware of the real world.

[Javaman]

69. "when you got nothing, you attack".

she'd rather leave the people who can't afford college behind rather than come up with a plan of her own.

this is one of the many reasons I will never vote for her.

[99Forever]

70. Dirty politicians gotta campaign dirty.

It's who they are, it's in their DNA.

[Wankle Ronnie]

71. Negative campaigning underway.

Clinton's losing. Again. End result remains the same.

[JoePhilly]

74. Another war on Christmas OP.

[Scootaloo]

111. Who's talking about a war on christmas? Are you lost?

[LondonReign2]

165. He likes to make dismissive posts that have nothing to do with the topic in question

When you got nothing, what else are you going to do?

[Zorra]

79. Hillary simply doesn't want her wealthy pals to have to pay any more in taxes.

Isn't that why they are giving her tens, maybe eventually even hundreds, of millions of dollars to represent them as their president?

How come almost all of the other more affluent countries of the world can provide free education for their kids?

[brooklynite]

85. Guess that was why she voted against the Bush tax cuts?

[ibegurpard]

92. She's not opposing taxpayer funded higher ed

Because it would be a giveaway to "rich" kids...she's opposing it because a very large sector of the financial industry does not want to lose out on profiting from student loans to lower income families.

[demwing]

83. This makes me want to vomit

I can't imagine how anyone in the 99% party could ignore their own interests and vote for this pre-packaged, Acme brand candidate.

I can't make a single argument in favor of Hillary. Not a single damned one...

[Catherina]

121. Because there are none... Not a single damned one... n/t

[demwing]

125. And BTW.."She's not as bad as a Republican" is not in her support

I'm not even 100% convinced it's true

[Catherina]

129. Yeah, but I'm happy to encourage that ridiculous talking point

it backfires so well.

[ibegurpard]

84. There are many reasons for moneyed interests to oppose Bernie ' s proposal

Not the least of which it would decimate the sector of the financial industry that preys upon lower income families for for student loan income.
A good reason to support the Bernie proposal IMHO.

[Snotcicles]

88. This is why you manipulate the debates, it gives you time and cover to take potshots you don't

get directly challenged on.

[kenfrequed]

89. It really is a shame

She completely mischarecterizes Bernie's positions on education.

Making public education free is about fighting the increasing costs that keep poor people out of higher education. The wealthy will always be able to afford education.

These tweets are terrible.

[Chitown Kev]

139. True...but then if the wealthy choose to go to a public university

shouldn't they have to pay for it.

Do you think that all of the people on these various lists were poor?

University of California at Berkeley alumni

University of Michigan alumni

University of Virginia alumni (Did not know that Robert F. Kennedy went to University of Virginia Law School)

[HassleCat]

110. As long as they're not like me

Taking two and three year breaks from college, taking only classes I liked, hardly studying, etc. If that wasn't enough, I went back and did it again in grad school. In all seriousness, any college funding plan has to keep people like me from abusing the system.

[Eleanors38]

138. Well, there's one good thing about the attacks: MSM may HAVE to cover Bernie.

[TBF]

143. Showing up only to help the bankers -

rather than saying "I am not going to give free college to wealthy kids" - maybe she ought to tax their parents so that everyone truly has a chance in this country. There is no way she will suggest taxes on trades. She won't do it and none of the republicans will either. Remind me why we as democrats are supposed to vote for her?

[Doctor_J]

154. her campaign rhetoric sounds more republican every day

[eridani]

156. One step forward--at least it's about an actual issue this time n/t

[Live and Learn]

157. K&R nt

[Live and Learn]

158. Then Bernie's plan is much better than Hillary's.

Making it free for everyone is much better than making it dependent upon income because when it is income dependent they start using the 'entitlement' tripe and work to get it eliminated.

Make it free for all and a right that all Americans are entitled to.

[liberal_at_heart]

160. "He has to explain that and how it would be paid for and all the rest of it."

Sounds exactly like what the Republicans would say about a tax supported school system. How would we pay for it? We would raise taxes. How does Hillary think we would pay for it? Maybe if we spent less money on war, we would have the money to do so.

[JackInGreen]

167. Poop flinging from the Clintons

Someone get her a banana