"How the National Rifle Association helped get Bernie Sanders elected"

[BainsBane]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-the-nra-helped-put-bernie-sanders-in-congress/2015/07/19/ed1be26c-2bfe-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

A few days before Election Day in 1990, the National Rifle Association sent a letter to its 12,000 members in Vermont, with an urgent message about the race for the state’s single House seat.

Vote for the socialist, the gun rights group said. It’s important....

That campaign also marked the beginning of Sanders’s complicated relationship with the ­issue of gun rights — the one area where Sanders’s Democratic presidential rivals have been able to attack him from the left.

Peter Smith, Sanders opponent, targeted by the NRA:

Just a few months before, as a candidate, Smith had promised to oppose new forms of gun control. That’s why the NRA had supported him. And the NRA support was a major reason why he had won in Vermont, where guns are associated with hunting moose and deer and not committing crimes.

But to the freshman congressman, all that didn’t seem to matter as much now.
“I’ll never forget, [the next day] brushing my teeth, looking in the mirror in my bathroom and realizing, as clear as day, I’m going to have to look at this face for the rest of my life in the mirror, and I want to be proud of the person I see,” Smith said. “I went back and looked up the gun bills.”
Smith found a bill to ban the sale of some assault weapons. He signed on as co-sponsor. . .

As a candidate in 1990, Sanders won over gun rights groups by promising to oppose one bill they hated — a measure that would establish a waiting period for handgun sales. In Congress, he kept that promise. The dynamic served as an early demonstration that, despite his pure-leftist persona, Sanders was at his core a pragmatic politician, calculating that he couldn’t win in rural Vermont without doing something for gun owners.

Instead of talking about guns, then, Sanders talked about honesty.
“Unlike some people, I won’t change my views on the subject,” he told one pro-gun group.

It worked.

Sanders won 56-40. He had lost eight prior elections for federal office, but in 1990 he won his first seat in DC.

[leftofcool]

1. This is an excellent article. I am waiting to see how Sanders explains this in a debate.

[workinclasszero]

22. Oh yeah Bernie

I can't wait to hear you defend Big Gun right after the latest slaughter of the innocents!

But hey, keep running interference for big corporations you socialist man of the people guy

[beam me up scottie]

62. You're really going to blame Bernie for gun deaths?

How's that going to work for Hillary when the Iraq war vote is brought up?

And I wouldn't go complaining about big corporate candidates if I were a Hillary supporter.

[bobclark86]

71. A hell of a lot more Americans...

die from firearms in a year than in a decade of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[beam me up scottie]

72. And how is Bernie responsible for those deaths?

[bobclark86]

75. How many gun control bills has he voted against?

People are screaming how the NRA has blood on its hands. So too, then, should they be screaming about the politicians who voted with the NRA.

[beam me up scottie]

77. You tell me. Start with his last vote re: banning assault weapons and background checks.

[MindfulOne]

148. LOL-- This HELPS Bernie with those on the right, rural types, Independents.

The OP thinks that this news (which is a non-story, the NRA hated the opponent so supported Sanders) will somehow hurt our candidate.

Not going to happen, a cargo ship full of fail.

[beam me up scottie]

161. The NRA hated Bernie after he voted to ban assault weapons in 1994.

They printed up and distributed "Bye, Bye, Bernie" bumper sticker stickers to their members.

[workinclasszero]

79. Oh those pesky facts again

Can't wait to hear Bernies response.

[beam me up scottie]

80. You didn't answer my question about dead Iraqis and American soldiers.

Is Hillary responsible for them?

[A Simple Game]

106. The answer is right in the OP, he was going to represent the citizens of Vermont,

not New York City or Chicago or even Alabama. Vermont doesn't seem to have much problem with guns.

[Straw Man]

219. And ...

A hell of a lot more Americans...

die from firearms in a year than in a decade of Iraq and Afghanistan.

... how many Iraqis and Afghans died in that decade?

[cui bono]

262. Hm, so only American lives matter to you?

[Joe Chi Minh]

122. He did say his name was 'zero'.

[HerbChestnut]

45. I read the article and found nothing that needs "explaining".

This was a fair article, and it did a good job of summarizing the race in which the NRA reluctantly 'supported' Sanders. It points out the fact that the NRA, in supporting Sanders, was supporting the "lesser of two evils" over the republican opponent. It also says the NRA's efforts were aimed more at getting the other guy out of office than they were at getting Bernie elected. In fact, the NRA had plans to get Bernie out of office during the next election, which of course didn't work out so well for them.

[beam me up scottie]

60. Explains what?

[AlbertCat]

135. I am waiting to see how Sanders explains this in a debate.

How about:


"a quarter of a century, and in Vermont, it wasn't as bad as it is now....what with the NRA being just gun manufacturer lobbyists, and the whole "us and them.... be afraid!" mentality the GOP has been pushing across the whole country since 9/11"


That's a start.




THIS is all they got? It's not like something everybody with a brain knew was lies and wrong.... like going into Iraq.

[ProgressiveJarhead]

156. Me too.

Still waiting for the republican light candidate to explain Honduras.

[Aerows]

220. Jarhead

(and thank you for your service) I think we will all keep waiting for an explanation with regard to Honduras.

Mention the Contras and everyone suddenly has amnesia.

Welcome to DU. Not all of us have memory problems around here.

[99th_Monkey]

3. This must account for Bernie's "D-" NRA rating?

Why do I smell a post mass-shooting hit-piece ?

[beam me up scottie]

9. Exploitation of last week's tragedy, part two.

[Mojorabbit]

259. I agree. Stay classy OP. nt

[BainsBane]

236. Did you actually read the article?

Last edited Wed Oct 7, 2015, 11:14 PM - Edit history (1)

It talks about that. It lays out his history of votes on guns, the ones in favor of gun control and the ones against. It explains the circumstances surrounding the election of 1990 and how the NRA came to back Bernie. It's actually a good piece, not a hit piece, despite the title.

[passiveporcupine]

246. 1990

You do realize that was nine years before Columbine, don't you? Columbine is what started the trend of young men going on shooting sprees. Not that we hadn't had them before...it just changed the dynamics of who and why it was happening. Australia didn't change their gun laws until 1996 mass shooting.

But you're OK with trying to compare Bernie's gun stance in 1990 with the way people feel about it today?

I personally believe trying to go after Bernie on the gun issue (especially outdated crap like this OP) is like going after Hillary for Benghazi. And I know how you all feel about Benghazi. I wish you would stop trying to bring up old issues that were not even relevant at that time. There was no big drive in the US to stop this constant rash of mass killings that have become like some kind of sick meme in the US.

[beam me up scottie]

247. Especially since he voted to ban assault weapons and for background checks in 1994.

But if exploiting a tragedy is all they've got then let them go keep posting old articles.

Personally I would rather see Dems go after the Republicans who block gun control at every turn.

[BainsBane]

254. I disagree they aren't relevant

Particularly since he has repeated many of the same points in recent months. Besides, he promised to never change his views, something people here insist is a strength.

If he has had a recent change of heart regarding guns, he should explain that to voters and how and why he came to that evolution. I have not heard anything like that from him. Only a few months ago he repeated his defense for votes giving immunity to gun corporations (a 2005 law) and defending the existing state of gun laws. That was very recent, after Charleston. Also that article talks about more recent votes, not just the election of 1990. That happens to be the election that brought him to federal office, but it is not the sum total of Sanders voters or positions on guns.

[passiveporcupine]

260. see my post on this issue of mfg responsibility

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=655812

And here he talks about votes he's made to change gun laws. He has changed a lot since 1990. Evolution over the years is a good and necessary thing, especially as society and people's attitudes change. I'm talking long term evolution, as in Bernie's case. Short term evolution (say, during a primary season, making promises you've not backed up with votes) is not necessarily honest. Bernie is not quite where I am on the gun issues, but he's moving in the right direction. And he does it thoughtfully, not to win votes.

[BainsBane]

261. Posts like yours defending gun makers

Is one of the things I find most concerning about Sanders' candidacy. I don't know why in this case of this candidate people feel compelled to adopt his views, but they do, and it's worrying. I am not interested in discussing the issue other than to say the pro-gun representation of it is false, and it is exactly the sort of thing I saw Sanders say on television and one of the principal reasons I cannot support him. The law has been used to protect companies that knowingly transfer guns to illegal arms dealers, without repercussion. There would be no need for the kind of law you describe. The purpose of it is to protect the unfettered profits of the corporate gun industry.

Additionally, it is completely inconsistent with a supposed anti-corporate position. You are content with gun corporations have immunity that car makers and other corporations don't. I am not. That kind of favoritism for gun corporations and $800 Billion for Lockheed Martin makes me question his rhetoric about corporations. I can think of no justification for why corporations that profit from killing should be held in higher esteem than the financial sector.

That so many people here have repeated exactly what the gun lobby says about that law, that they have taken other disturbing positions like attacking Black Lives Matters; that the same people who excoriated Obama for the drone program justify Bernie's statement that he would continue using it . . . It is not even acceptable any longer to question US policy toward Israel and Palestine without being called anti-semitic. All of these are pernicious influences, all promoting a more conservative position that what was previously common around here. All of that, compared with the hostility toward anyone who dares to provide information or even ask about Sanders' voting record reveals an influence I find troubling.

I have been involved in gun discussion on this site for years. I didn't just pick it up because of the election, and I know the dog whistles and arguments from both sides. I am strongly gun control. Sanders record on a number of key votes is troubling, but more disturbing is the way that he has influenced progressives to adopt arguments like the one in your linked post. Thank you for reminding me why I must work hard to ensure he doesn't gain office and that a pro-gun control candidate (probably Clinton but O'Malley is very strong on the issue) is elected instead.

We will remain the US of guns until we the people hold our elected representatives accountable, just as the pro-gun crowd does.

[ibegurpard]

4. Bernie's record and stances on gun control

Line up with public opinion.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Already posted when it was news - twice:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251471591

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251461783


Bernie was not funded by nor did the bidding of the NRA.


Nice try but you should get some new material BB, Bernie is no gun nut.

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

If you're so concerned about gun control why not attack the Republicans who obstruct legislation?

[leftofcool]

8. He will be asked about this in a debate. Hope he has a good answer.

[beam me up scottie]

10. For what? He did nothing wrong.

[HerbChestnut]

17. CNN will ask him about it regardless.

These debates are more about creating/exploiting controversy than they are about letting the candidates share their ideas. I'm sure Bernie and his campaign staff see it coming, and I have no doubt they'll be prepared for it.

[beam me up scottie]

19. He always is prepared, it's Hillary that needs to work on her debating skills.

After 2008 I hope she hired some good coaches.

[99th_Monkey]

118. Of course they will. CNN needs SOMEthing to talk about besides income inequality, TPP & climate change.

You know, those issues that have tens of thousands of voters engaged in a political
revolution of historic proportions, because Sanders represents them like no one else..

They'll exploit the recent Oregon mass-shooting as a "gotcha" distraction, and hammer
Sanders with every conceivable nuance of "difference" between him and Hillary on gun
control.

[bobclark86]

73. Voting against the Brady Bill was a GOOD thing? n/t

[beam me up scottie]

74. He voted against it because he thought background checks should be done by the state.

He was representing his constituents in Vermont.

You know, doing his fucking job?

[bobclark86]

81. Ahh, the "state's rights" argument.

Good one.

And each of these hypothetical 50 state systems would totally have equal or better access to the records from each of the other states, instead of one centralized system which still has its flaws. That's TOTALLY a better idea! I don't see how that could POSSIBLY be inefficient and full of holes, letting more unstable or felonious potential purchasers get guns....

[beam me up scottie]

82. He was voting in the best interest of Vermonters. Explain Bernie's last vote re: background checks

I'm waiting...

[bobclark86]

84. A flip-flopper going left for a primary.

Duh.

[beam me up scottie]

86. That vote was in 2013.

Duh.

[bobclark86]

104. Hurr, youre so funnie!!!!

Point is, your candidate (I don't have one, thank godtopus) got elected to Congress with the help of the NRA, then voted repeatedly to stifle efforts to limit gun deaths.

BTW, please point to the bills he's proposed that actually became law since getting into the Senate. You know, other than renaming a few post offices and one feel-good pro-vets bill during the last shutdown. Good luck with that one...

[beam me up scottie]

107. You mean the 206 bills Bernie sponsored/cosponsored that were signed into law?

https://www.congress.gov/member/bernard-sanders/S000033?q=%7B"bill-status"%3A"law"%7D

[bobclark86]

124. NOT co-sponsored.

I asked about bills he introduced as a sponsor AND were passed. Excuse the hyperbole, but my dead dog could co-sponsor a bill.

As far as sponsored and passed, you have THREE. Two were renaming post offices.

Sorry, but I want a REAL leader. I'm not seeing that in Sanders, nor in the other candidates.

[beam me up scottie]

129. bob said: "please point to the bills he's proposed that actually became law"

And I pointed to 206 that have his name on them.

Not sure where you're going with this, bob.

First you were wrong about his votes and now you're moving the goalposts.

Seems like sour grapes.

[bobclark86]

163. You don't know what "proposed" means...

I worry what kind of person thinks "proposed" and "tacked his name on somebody else's law" are the same thing.

Sounds like you can't stand the truth that your candidate has only recently changed his pro-gun position and hasn't actually done anything.

[beam me up scottie]

166. Definition of "propose": put forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others

Was Bernie's name on those bills or not?

Sounds like you can't stand the truth that your candidate has only recently changed his pro-gun position and hasn't actually done anything.

We already covered this, bob, try to focus. Bernie voted to ban assault weapons in 1994.

[bobclark86]

167. Not as a sponsor, he wasn't.

People wonder why I'm anti-Bernie. It's because his followers are...

Eh, never mind. It's not worth it.

(adds to ignore)

[beam me up scottie]

168. So his name was on the bills, then? Good! Glad we've got that cleared up, bob!

[beam me up scottie]

87. Hillary was in favour of letting cities and states determine local gun laws:

Let states & cities determine local gun laws

Q: Do you support the DC handgun ban?

A: I want to give local communities the authority over determining how to keep their citizens safe. This case you’re referring to is before the Supreme Court.

Q: But what do you support?

A: I support sensible regulation that is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.

Q: Is the DC ban consistent with that right?

A: I think a total ban, with no exceptions under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But DC or anybody else [should be able to] come up with sensible regulations to protect their people.

Q: But do you still favor licensing and registration of handguns?

A: What I favor is what works in NY. We have one set of rules in NYC and a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in NYC is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of blanket rules that they’re going to try to impose, I think doesn’t make sense.

Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary , Apr 16, 2008

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Gun_Control.htm

You were saying?

[Go Vols]

224. Well done!

[beam me up scottie]

225. Thank you, neighbor!

[hrmjustin]

89. Well done!

[beam me up scottie]

93. You do realize bob just got caught making shit up, justin, right?

That vote was in 2013.

What year did Bernie announce he was running for the nomination?

You know when he became a "flip-flopper going left for a primary"?

[hrmjustin]

98. He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013.

Nice try.

[beam me up scottie]

101. Then explain why he voted for a ban on assault weapons in 1994, justin.

[hrmjustin]

105. He didn't get every vote wrong. He got it right sometimes on guns.

He doesn't have a gop record on guns but he has some votes that deserves criticism.


Last I checked we are allowed to post Criticism of Sanders here.

[beam me up scottie]

108. You just said he only voted to ban them in 2013 because he knew he was running in 2013.

Want to walk that back or keep trying to change the subject?

[hrmjustin]

112. I never said that. I said well done.

[beam me up scottie]

116. hrmjustin: "He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013."

hrmjustin (62,949 posts)

98. He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013.

Nice try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=649364

[hrmjustin]

141. My answered below.

[beam me up scottie]

145. Did you admit you were making shit up about why he voted for a ban?

[hrmjustin]

154. Can't stop can you!

Give it up. Putting words into people's mouth is not nice.

[beam me up scottie]

155. hrmjustin: "He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013."

I will be honest and say i really did not remember this story.

[Mnpaul]

217. He is not the only one in favor of state's rights concerning gun control

Q: Do you support the DC handgun ban?
A: I want to give local communities the authority over determining how to keep their citizens safe. This case you’re referring to is before the Supreme Court.

Q: But what do you support?
A: I support sensible regulation that is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.

Q: Is the DC ban consistent with that right?
A: I think a total ban, with no exceptions under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But DC or anybody else [should be able to] come up with sensible regulations to protect their people.

Q: But do you still favor licensing and registration of handguns?
A: What I favor is what works in NY. We have one set of rules in NYC and a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in NYC is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of blanket rules that they’re going to try to impose, I think doesn’t make sense.

2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary , Apr 16, 2008

[Roy Rolling]

85. Okay, here's the answer

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day. If the NRA supported Sanders that proves at least once in their existence they did the right thing.

Or do you wish to rephrase the question to state what you are really getting at, "when are you going to take the NRA endorsement in 1990 as the insult we are intending it to be?"

I get it. I get the Hillary hardball tactics by some. But using smear tactics on Sanders makes it much harder for me to continue defending Hillary during an unjust Benghazi witch hunt.

So all of you "demanding answers" should at least see that almost everyone understands the subcontext here---to exploit another gun tragedy for a weak political narrative. Which again delays real gun violence research or regulation.

[beam me up scottie]

88. Thank you.

Well said.

[hrmjustin]

94. Are you kidding me?

Because a poster posts an accurate article you won't defend Hillary against a witch hunt?

Looks like some Sanders supporters can dish it out but can't take it.

[iandhr]

134. Yup.

DU is a fact free zone. Someone posts an accurate article about a negative aspect of Bernie it is hit job a smear and can't be talked about here didn't you know?


BTW I never expected to hear a Mets fan talk sense.

[hrmjustin]

138. Lol. I didn't think the Mets woulc get this far. Good luck tomorrow!

[iandhr]

160. Thanks

[Gothmog]

171. Hey wait a minute

The Astros have come a very very long way. It has been 10 years since the Astros have been in the playoffs

[hrmjustin]

173. Lol and i wish the best of luck to your team as well.

[George II]

268. One of my favorite playoff series was Mets/Astros in 1986

[Joe Chi Minh]

130. He will give a good answer, because he is not a malefactor,

nor has he developed into one for pragmatic purposes.

Of course, right-wing trolls will continue to grizzle. Good. If he's made a dozen wrong moves, the people know his balance sheet still weighs very, very heavily in his favour. By an order of magnitude, compared to the rest, the veteran sell-outs to the large corporations.

[restorefreedom]

196. hillary will be asked about the iraq war

hope she has a good answer

oh wait....she doesn't

[Autumn]

15. When you only have three pairs of pants you gotta rotate those suckers

[beam me up scottie]

18. I think of it like a compost pile, they have to keep churning it.

[Tommy2Tone]

61. I think that is a cheap sexist shot at Hillary

I would have hoped by now we would have moved past this kind of crap, but I guess if it is to defend Bernie, anything goes?

[beam me up scottie]

63. What are you on about? Did Hillary repost the op for the third time on DU?

[Autumn]

149. Got the three did ya?

[beam me up scottie]

152. Math is hard for some people.

[Autumn]

158. Math and facts are hard for some people.

[beam me up scottie]

164. Like people who claim they never heard this story but posted in a thread about it?

[Tommy2Tone]

201. Missed the reference

that's on me.

[beam me up scottie]

202. Fair enough.

I dislike the pantsuit references too, I'm glad Hillary is mocking those who mock her for her wardrobe.

It's the best way for women to treat that kind of double standard.

[Autumn]

195. That wasn't a shot at Hillary. Hillary wears pantsuits, nice pantsuits, not pants

and she has more than three pair. Three pairs of pants is a metaphor. I am on record as saying Hillary looks great in her pantsuits. I like Hillary, I don't want her in the White House which is why I support Bernie for president but I like Hillary.

[hrmjustin]

69. That is a bit low.

[Autumn]

143. Did Hillary post the OP? FWIW I didn't say pantsuits, and I am on record that

she looks great in her pantsuits, which she has many of, that's a lot more than three. Find something else to be offended by. When your mind goes to a low place everything you see is low.

[hrmjustin]

147. Figures you can't see how low it was.

[Autumn]

153. I see a lot of low stuff just not in my fellow DUers,

well most of them. The ones that post on DU anyway.

[JDPriestly]

103. I'm a strong Bernie supporter, but may I suggest that you remove your post. Needs some

editing or something. Sorry but I don't want to see it removed by anyone but you.

[Autumn]

180. if I were talking about Hillary, I would have made it clear I was talking about Hillary.

There would have been no ambiguity.

[m-lekktor]

182. why? there is absolutely nothing wrong with that post. nt

[hrmjustin]

6. Did not know this. I liked what I saw from Hillary's proposals today.

[ibegurpard]

11. Oh please

You do realize that most of us didn't just sign up here yesterday right?

[hrmjustin]

13. Trying to figure out how to respond to your issue so I will just say..

... what is your concern?

[ibegurpard]

20. you and your friends have been pushing this for months

Trying to say that you didn't know about it is disingenuous at best.

[hrmjustin]

21. Calling me a liar?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Fishing for an alertable response?

Stay classy Justin.

[hrmjustin]

32. The poster addressed me. I didn't search this poster out.

Stay honest Warren!

[ibegurpard]

35. Are you calling him a liar?

[hrmjustin]

37. I asked first.

[beam me up scottie]

41. You did post in this thread from July:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251426628


So how can you claim you didn't know this?

[hrmjustin]

43. I will be honest and say i really did not remember this story.

[beam me up scottie]

95. Sure, whatever you say justin.

[hrmjustin]

100. Yeah it is what I said. I am not a liar.

I maybe many things but i am not a liar.

[beam me up scottie]

102. mmm hmmmm

[hrmjustin]

109. Keep going but be aware I don't care what you think of me.

Cheers.

[beam me up scottie]

114. It's a good thing because you were less than honest upthread.

When you said that Bernie only voted to ban assault weapons in 2013 because he knew he would be running for president.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=649338

[hrmjustin]

115. I never said only. Stop making things up.

[beam me up scottie]

117. hrmjustin: "He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013."

hrmjustin (62,949 posts)

98. He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013.

Nice try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=649364

[hrmjustin]

119. You said

"When you said that Bernie only voted to ban assault weapons in 2013 because he knew he would be running for president".

I never said that.

I said he knew he was running in 2013.

[beam me up scottie]

123. Oh dear, did someone hack your account and type those words?

I asked for an explanation why Bernie voted to ban assault weapons in 2013 and you replied:

He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013.

[hrmjustin]

127. You said...

"That vote was in 2013.

What year did Bernie announce he was running for the nomination? "


I was answering your question.

[hrmjustin]

128. You said

That vote was in 2013.

What year did Bernie announce he was running for the nomination?


I answered your question.

[beam me up scottie]

133. You said "Well done!" when bob made the mistake of claiming Bernie flip flopped before the primary.

Why did you compliment him on his failure and then double down by repeating his answer?:

"He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013"?

[hrmjustin]

137. You say he failed, not me.

Cheers!

[beam me up scottie]

139. And you high-fived him and repeated his answer to me. Or did someone else type that?

[hrmjustin]

140. Lol. Keep going all night if you need to.

[beam me up scottie]

142. No, I think I proved my point.

Some people like to make up shit and then deny the smell is coming from them.

[hrmjustin]

146. Then stop and it won't smell anymore.

[beam me up scottie]

151. That would be your friend bob and looks you got some on you too:

Here you go:

[hrmjustin]

121. I replied above to you.

[beam me up scottie]

125. So you didn't type the words "He knew he was going to run he was considering running in 2013"?

[ibegurpard]

54. I'm not going to say...

[neverforget]

64. I know nothing!

[azmom]

67. Oooohhh, Justin.

[wendylaroux]

50. ha!! ya mean you were gonna pick Bernie??? ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you're a hoot!!

[hrmjustin]

52. Can not say i feel the same about you.

[wendylaroux]

55. that's alright,

Hillary still has my vote if she wins these crazy primaries.

[hrmjustin]

56. And Sanders has my vote if he wins the primary.

[deadlinetony]

7. Rinse and repeat

June 25th discussion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026905302

July 5th discussion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251426628

July 23rd discussion: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251471591

Easily searchable through Google.

Rinse and repeat.

[slipslidingaway]

170. Welcome to DU, exactly rinse and repeat! n/t

[Aerows]

12. For heaven's sake, HillsHouse

If you are attempting to paint Bernie Sanders as a gun nut to DU and the public at large, you are barking up the wrong tree.

I live in a rural area, and I have long guns. I have relatives that hunt white-tail deer, which if they didn't, deer would overrun us and cause car accidents because they run across the road.

Feral hogs are an issue in this neck of the woods, and hell, I'm known for having a raccoon problem. They are small, so I just catch and release them in swampy areas miles away. I don't kill anything if I don't have to.

What are you going to do about an alligator on your property? Orate at it? Maybe deliver a speech about how your policies will lift all boats?

[HerbChestnut]

14. I hope everybody reads the entire article

Because there's nothing in there implicating Bernie of any wrong doing. In fact, the article states several times that the NRA was supporting the "lesser of two evils", which in this case meant Bernie over his republican challenger. It even states that the NRA wanted to kick the other guy out of office more than they wanted to elect Bernie, and that they'd then proceed to get Bernie out of office during the next election.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Horseshit like this make me regret having

Posted a positive piece here about Clinton's town hall meeting in my town. Well done!


That is if your objective was to widen the divide, burn bridges, stir shit, and score points on your hate-sanders-supporters secret place.

[beam me up scottie]

23. Why go after the Republicans when you can attack pro-gun control Dem candidates?

Amirite?

[Cali_Democrat]

24. You regret posting your link because some anonymous poster on a message board

posted an article you don't like a few hours later?

Okie dokie.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Yes.

Why should I post anything at all positive about Clinton here when her supporters here, just about every last one of them, do nothing except post ridiculous smears against Sanders?

If it were legitimate criticisms I'd be fine with that. Clinton is better on gun control than Sanders. Great, make that case. But the op can't do that. Instead she has to fabricate nonsense. Why?

[hrmjustin]

40. What was fabricated in the op?

[beam me up scottie]

46. Either a) they googled and posted the first article they found

or

b) they knew it was posted here before and didn't care


Either way they're still exploiting last week's tragedy to smear a pro-gun control candidate.

[Cali_Democrat]

53. Yes? So you regret posting the article because somebody on the interwebz made you angry...

[Warren Stupidity]

181. no it is more like what the fuck is wrong with Clinton supporters here on the DU community.

not some random shit on the internet. Here. A community of people who post here on a regular basis. Right here we seem to have a group who are just not interested in an even remotely honest discussion. Instead they just post idiotic nonsense for no purpose other than to piss people off here.

[hrmjustin]

194. You owe me a keyboard!

[iandhr]

120. How is this a ridiculous smear?

[Fred Sanders]

30. The circular logic is truly a thing to behold , isn't it?

[beam me up scottie]

51. What's logical about bringing up his NRA rating and then claiming you don't care about it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=649177

[hifiguy]

25. Lordy lu,

You're so far through the bottom of the barrel and into the muck beneath that this is the only appropriate response.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Swiftboating - ur doin it wrong

[hrmjustin]

27. How dare you post anything that shows Sanders in a bad light!

[Fred Sanders]

31. Indeed! Only OP's pointing out the non-perfection of other candidates is permitted!

A F "rating" - I hate even using the NRA term as a standard - is the only rating any Democratic Party candidate for President should be proud of.

You can get a D- rating from the NRA by not sleeping with a gun by your bed.

[hrmjustin]

34. And they call us sensitive.

[Fred Sanders]

36. As the OP merely reports, Sanders does not have an F rating from the NRA for a reason.

[beam me up scottie]

47. What grade does he have and why, Fred?

Please explain in detail how the NRA came up with his grade.

Tia!

[Fred Sanders]

48. Ratings from ISIS and ratings from the NRA are equally nothing I would care about.

But some do.

[beam me up scottie]

49. Then why did you bring it up? Did you have a point?

[frylock]

65. This is the first I've heard of this.....

[hrmjustin]

66. Ok.

[ibegurpard]

111. lol

[Alittleliberal]

199. You know that's not what Bernie supporters complaint about this is.

You're very transparent.

[hrmjustin]

203. Do you dispute the accuracy of this article?

[Doctor_J]

28. good luck with that

[stonecutter357]

33. K&R!

[zazen]

38. this (false) perception of NRA support will actually help him in the general n/t

[Fred Sanders]

58. Sanders has demonstrably given partial support to NRA positions, when ZERO is the correct amount.

[djean111]

42. And I will do my very best to get Bernie Sanders elected this time. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

44. Thank you for opening my eyes and changing my mind

said no Sanders supporter ever.

[99th_Monkey]

126. Sanders supporters are generally not single-issue voters. Are you? -nt-

[whatchamacallit]

132. nope

[SunSeeker]

57. K & R

[silenttigersong]

59. The Gloat before the Debate

I am sure Bernie Sanders Campaign are throughly prepared for this.I am equally sure that Clinton will be seen as trite during Debate if seen as an attack rather then fair discourse.From the Clinton supporters on this board it indicates attack .My question is how does that kind of stuff play out with the cry of no fair Benghazi now showing Clinton as a victim.IMO hypocrisy.

[hrmjustin]

68. Is anyone here claiming the article is getting facts wrong?

[leftofcool]

91. No.

[hrmjustin]

97. And that is interesting. They can dish it out but can't handle criticism or seeing their candidate

in a bad light.

[uponit7771]

211. NOPE

[hrmjustin]

212. Just a lot of people who can dish it out but can't take it.

[AtomicKitten]

70. Oh look, Clinton drones attacking Bernie on guns.

Give it your best shot because on Oct 13 the window for that line of attack closes and the blowback for it begins.

[Aerows]

76. HillsHouse lives for this. n/t

[hrmjustin]

83. Wow! Don't like criticism of your candidate?

[ProgressiveJarhead]

162. Obviously

Neither do Clintonistas. They act like low information republicans when it comes to mentioning anything negative about her.

[beam me up scottie]

172. Meet kettle.

Someone I know has been on several timeouts because they couldn't handle criticism of their candidate.

[hrmjustin]

175. Several?

[beam me up scottie]

176. As in more than one, yes.

[hrmjustin]

178. I was flagged once and had one five hide vacation so yes it is plural.

But i stand behind all of my hides i got this year.

[beam me up scottie]

179. So why are you throwing stones at Bernie's supporters from your glass house?

[hrmjustin]

183. My point still stands.

[beam me up scottie]

184. Your point is an amputee because you are guilty of the same thing.

[hrmjustin]

188. My point still stand and is correct. All of you comments can not changed that.

Go on and get the ladt word if you need to but this is boring me now so enjoy your night.

[beam me up scottie]

189. You still owe me a new irony meter.

[uponit7771]

210. Not at all, one person told me recently that Sanders can throw stones.... really, this was typed and

... the person posted it for everyone to see.

[beam me up scottie]

213. Have you rec'd the thread showing Bernie's proposals yet?

Or are you just here to throw stones?

Bernie Sanders Terrifies The NRA With Consensus Plan To Reduce Mass Shootings

[uponit7771]

214. No, I don't trust him on the issues of guns seeing his support for corporations that make them

... and his previous hard stances on them.

That's not throwing a stone, that's looking at his history and some recent (like in the last couple of months) conversions that seem political... seeing hes been in congress for decades and proposed nothing like what he's proposing now.

Hillary on the other hand is saying some signing statements as president gets her past the "talking" stage and onto something that can be done that is tangible and she's in control of.

[beam me up scottie]

215. So you don't care where the candidates stand. Good to know that the issue isn't that important.

[hrmjustin]

216. Yeah i just don't trust Sanders on the gun issue either.

[passiveporcupine]

252. So, you believe that the company that makes Hummers

should be held responsible if someone buys a hummer and puts on military armor and goes and runs down a bunch of civilians in a parking lot or park or something? It's the Hummer mfg who is responsible with how that "tough as shit, military looking vehicle" was used to kill people?

If we are going to sue gun manufacturers, we need to sue them for something they are responsible for, and that would be continuing to manufacture and sell assault weapons after we have passed a law That bans them in the US.

Also, consider the lawn dart issue. They were deemed too dangerous to sell and banned in the US. A father (Snow) bought a pack of sports equipment that included the lawn darts and his son accidentally killed his sister with one (threw it over the house and she was hit in the head in the front yard).

manufacturers and distributors had challenged the ban in court, though, and won a compromise: a regulation stating that lawn darts could made and sold provided they were marketed only as a game for adults. A warning label had to be placed on each package alerting consumers to the danger they posed, and the darts couldn’t be merchandised in toy departments or sold in toy stores.

To Snow, Michelle’s death proved that the regulation didn’t protect kids. It didn't matter that they were sold as an adult game; if Jarts were in a home and children were allowed to play with them or could still get access to them, he thought, accidents would happen. He wanted the ban back in place and began lobbying public officials with phone calls and letters telling his story.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31176/how-one-dad-got-lawn-darts-banned

Because the new restrictions about how they could be sold was not followed, I believe he could have sued the lawn dart company. Not sure why he didn't. But he did at least get the ban reinstated.

[Armstead]

78. How SATAN really helped get Sanders elected

It isn't the NRA. Could it be SATAN?!

[beam me up scottie]

92. NRA spelled backward is BERNIE SANDERS. Duh.

[Eleanors38]

90. If Hillary wants to be the gun-control candidate, let her.

[FreedomRain]

96. NRA was not always evil

Certainly it had started its slide to evil by 1990, but there was still a lot of good feeling for it. I am for firm gun control, and I was a member of NRA in my early teen years (mid 80s). At the time it was much more about gun safety and education, and less about ramping up sales. (Conceded - maybe just less obvious and less stupid about it)

I am not denying the various points and counterpoints here - just want y'all to keep in mind that the character and membership of the NRA has changed a lot since 1990. In many ways it is not the same organization today.

[Hoyt]

99. Is Sanders owned by the NRA?

[frylock]

191. Just Asking Questions.....

[beam me up scottie]

249. I like that! :)

[frylock]

253. Idiots will suffice.

[iandhr]

110. I posted this article in the Sanders forum.

Berine's sycophants were whining how "Andrea Mitchell told a whopper about Berine"

I posted this article in the Sanders forum. They were whining about how Andrea Mitchell

Andrea Mitchell just told a whopper about Bernie

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=58632

I posted this article hoping some people might be persuaded by facts. I was banned from the page.


DU is a fact free zone sometimes.

[Scuba]

113. Bash, bash, bash ...

You know, Bains, the interesting this is that this is one of those issues where Bernie falls short of the mark relative to my ideal candidate. There are a couple other issues I'd like to see him "evolve" on as well.

But these are the exceptions. I'm 67 years old and have never ever before so enjoyed seeing a Presidential candidate so closely aligned with my own positions as Bernie. Supporting this man is a joy.

Hillary, on the other hand, is miles from me on a myriad of what I consider the most important issues facing our nation and our planet. So bash away where you feel Bernie comes up short. He's still far and away the best as far as I'm concerned.

[TeddyR]

131. I didn't read all the posts

But the simple fact is the official platform of the Democratic party is that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms (as does the law of the land), your current president and leader of the party agrees, as do many, many individual democrats and elected officials. Trying to blame the prevalence of guns or the issue of gun deaths on a single individual is ridiculous and desperate. Bernie Sanders is no more responsible for any shooting than President Obama, President Clinton or Hillary Clinton.

[Thinkingabout]

136. As pointed out many times, voting records are open for public to see, even Bernie points out several

Times Hillary voted for IWR, Bernie should be pointed out for his gun control voting record. We have lost more American lives to gun violence than was lost in Iraq and still the laws we have now is not enough to stop the gun violence. I am glad Hillary has c ok me out strong on this issue.

[TheKentuckian]

144. If so then good, they helped one of the very finest representitives of our times.

[tkmorris]

150. My reaction to this bushel of schlopp

[MindfulOne]

157. Shame on you for posting this steaming pile of Logical Fallacy.

Just how many people do you think will drop their support for Sanders and say OMG, He's EVIL!?

Seriously. First, his history and policy position on gun control is WELL within the range of liberal/progressive politics.

(shame on you)

And, it reeks of desperation that you try to smear the very person most likely to save your butt when it comes to having a good paying job or keeping social security, or growing it.

I thought you were wiser than to fall into the trap of supporting the corporate candidate at the cost of your ability to work within the realm of fair debate.

Damn. Please reconsider.

[benld74]

159. And now THAT is making the NRA sweat!

[840high]

165. Huge UNREC for this shit.

[Gothmog]

169. Great article

[slipslidingaway]

174. And you could have read the article back in July when it was first published and posted ...

using the latest shooting to post an old article is not so great.

[concreteblue]

177. Wow. Just WOW.

The Shillaries are grasping at straws. Since when does representing your constituents in the best way you know how rate a negative? I love the smell of desperation early in the electoral process.........

[hifiguy]

190. Amazin' ain't it?

In the words of that esteemed philosopher B. Bunny, it is to laugh.

[truebluegreen]

185. Gotta say this: you don't give up!

It would be admirable if it weren't so misguided. imo.

[hifiguy]

193. Well. Yosemite Sam never gave up

no matter how many times Bugs got the best of him.

I'm not sure what that says.

Oh, hell, yes I am.

[demmiblue]

186. You really hate Berni Sanders that much...

that you have #fuckthebern in the About section in your profile?

Talk about over the top!

Edit: Oh, I see it is in your sig line, too.

[beam me up scottie]

198. Wow. I didn't even notice the #fuckthebern in her sig line.

That's classy.

I guess that's what passes for political discourse at some websites.

[demmiblue]

200. Can you even imagine the hissy fit if a Sanders or O'Malley supporter did the equivalent?!

I put her on ignore a few minutes ago.

I appreciate her steadfastness regarding feminist issues, but I don't have the wherewithal to deal with plain old nastiness.

[bvf]

187. There's this.

"You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are."

[randr]

192. All of our speculation means nothing

What will matter is what he states at the first question re: Hillary's new stand on gun control.

[Tommymac]

197. Hugs.

Really seems like you need one.

[cherokeeprogressive]

204. I have 10 absentee ballots in the first four states. IA, NH, NV, and SC. Bernie gets all 40 of them.

This gun bullshit is idiotic. I've a mind to buy ten more in each state.

[hrmjustin]

205. I noticed nobody is actually saying the article is inaccurate. Just a lot of crying!

[ucrdem]

206. Ouch.

Thanks BB for sharing that info which is what DU is all about!

[jfern]

207. Bernie won in 1990 because he got almost all the Democratic vote

The main difference between the 1988 and 1990 elections was that in 1990, Bernie got almost all of the Democratic vote

The Republican only dropped 1.7 points in the poll, which isn't that unusual for a Republican midterm election.

1988:
Peter Smith (R) – 98,937 (41.2%)
Bernie Sanders (I) – 90,026 (37.5%)
Paul N. Poirier (D) – 45,330 (18.9%)
Jim Hedbor (Libertarian) – 3,109 (1.3%)
Peter Diamondstone (LU) – 1,455 (0.6%)
Morris Earle (Small is Beautiful Party) – 1,070 (0.4%)

1990:
Bernie Sanders (I) – 117,522 (56%)
Peter Smith (R) – 82,938 (39.5%)
Dolores Sandoval (D) – 6,315 (3%)
Peter Diamondstone (LU) – 1,965 (0.9%)

The important thing is that the Democratic nominee dropped from 18.9 points to 3 points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Bernie_Sanders

[one_voice]

208. Does that really say #fuckthebern in your sig line?

On a Democratic site?

In my opinion, something like that should be off limits for ALL the candidates.

[cherokeeprogressive]

218. Ain't she somethin'? n/a

[beam me up scottie]

209. Bernie Sanders Terrifies The NRA With Consensus Plan To Reduce Mass Shootings

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251649751


Feel the Bern!

[William769]

221. Kick & highly recommended!

[hrmjustin]

222. Kicking.

[GusBob]

223. K&R

[Bluenorthwest]

226. This thread was super fun the first time, with the original cast and full orchestra but at this

point between the redundancy itself and the lack of new material in the improvised sections I think it's time to close this once amusing trifle and retire it for at least a season or two.

[Dont call me Shirley]

227. This lie has been debunked.

[BainsBane]

231. What has been debunked?

What specifically is in error in the article? Did the NRA not target Peter Smith? Did they not tell their members to go vote for Bernie Sanders? Because there is a clear trail of evidence indicating they did. So you really are going to need to be more specific about "which lie" has been debunked.

[Dont call me Shirley]

238. Thom Hartmann debunked the entire premise of the NRA lie about Bernie on his show Monday.

[BainsBane]

240. So it would appear you have no evidence to counter any of the points in the article

but decided to insist it was a lie simply because you find it inconvenient.

[Dont call me Shirley]

241. Nope. I will post Thoms debunking.

[BainsBane]

244. You don't recall any of the points he raised?

What particularly he disputed? You don't even recall the facts yet you are certain the Washington Post is lying? Don't you think you should verify some of the points yourself?

[Hiraeth]

228. some.big.help.that was. nice hashtag to go with the hit and run OP.

did this give you bragging rights for the day over at the other place

[BainsBane]

229. If you are going to resort to personal comments, Tuesday Afternoon

rather than addressing the substance of the piece, keep in mind who you are talking to. Clearly you have no idea.

[beam me up scottie]

230. Nice avatar! What is that green thing and where did you get it?

btw, loved the fuckthebern hashtag in your sigline, why did you delete it?

[BainsBane]

232. Thanks!

A friend made it for me. I'm glad you like it.

[beam me up scottie]

233. Oh, I know! ;)

[Hiraeth]

239. clearly I no longer give a shit, if I ever did.

[George II]

269. One of my favorite Moody Blues songs! Have they appeared in California recently?

[Fawke Em]

234. Meh. At least he's not being accused of breaking federal digital retention laws.

#FeeltheBern

[BainsBane]

235. Everyone has their priorities

If you're referring to Clinton, the FBI closed the case.

[Fawke Em]

237. ???

The FBI is still investigating the issues surrounding her server - and, while the news of her not properly backing up her emails just broke today, we're not sure where the FBI stands on that issue.

They're still investigating.

[George II]

270. Who is?

[hrmjustin]

242. Still haven't seen this debunked here. I don't listen to radio shows so i would like

to see someone show how this article is inaccurate here.

[BainsBane]

255. I find it odd that no one who did listen to the show

can point to a single point that is incorrect.

[hrmjustin]

256. But we are being called names like D-Minuses because we asked questions.

[BainsBane]

257. Was that about my post too?

Jeeze. I don't think I'll catch on to this absolute deference to authority. Doesn't seem very leftist to me.

[hrmjustin]

258. Well i just saw it got hidden. Not my alert but deserved.

Ye they don't seem to want us here.

[PowerToThePeople]

243. Even if true, I still fully support Bernie.

I will not look into this much, as I do not care.

Let O'Malley attack PAC's go after Bernie. It will give him things to respond to. He will respond well.

[beam me up scottie]

250. Bernie voted to ban assault weapons and for background checks in 1994 and 2013.

So the people who claim the NRA supports him are full of it.

Just leave them to their gaslighting and let's focus on the Republicans who oppose gun control.

[SidDithers]

245. DU rec...

thanks for posting.

Sid

[madfloridian]

251. Sounds like the NRA USED Bernie as a political tool.

Don't you agree?

[moobu2]

263. If the NRA did use Bernie

Bernie let them.

[slipslidingaway]

265. And you could say Hillary let Bush use her in his war of aggression against Iraq ...

shock and awe, who could forget! Not the millions of people who were being liberated by our invasion and those who voted to allow such an invasion and later saying it was a mistake!

Problem is that 14 years later Iraq is still suffering from the MISTAKE that some our politicians voted for, their lives will never be the same, Whole generations have missed a step. Going to school, having children etc. Can we even comprehend what we have done to millions of people who have been displaced?

Bush said 'why do they hate us' and the Dems are asking the same question? Look what we have done to destabilize the region going back to the 1950's. We better start to take a close look and see the havoc we are causing. And that includes Clinton with her blasé attitude towards invading another country.


'Shock and awe' campaign underway in Iraq

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/fyi/news/03/22/iraq.war/

"Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld held a news conference at about 1:40 p.m. EST. He announced that the air war had begun, and he listed some of the coalition objectives in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Those objectives included defending Americans against Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, ridding the Gulf country of such illegal weapons, liberating the Iraqi people, and ending the regime of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Rumsfeld said that the strike had taken place "on a scale that indicates to Iraqis" that Saddam and his leadership were finished. He added that the allies would work to search for, capture, and drive out terrorists who had found safe harbor in Iraq, as well as to deliver humanitarian relief to the Iraqi people..."

[cui bono]

264. Is this a plea for people to post about Hillary's Benghazi scandal?

[Fearless]

266. If the NRA is dumb and wants to support him, I won't stop them.

[Orrex]

267. Just saw this thread.

Interesting on many levels.