Clinton supporters: are you maintaining your principled support for TPP?

[Warren Stupidity]

Or have you also switched to a newly principled opposition to TPP?

[dsc]

1. I have the same position I had before

mild opposition.

[MADem]

126. Me too. That's a good way of putting it.

I thought it smelled bad, but I still withhold my "Ehhhrrrmahgerd The Sky Is Falling" drama--I really want to hear a few experts go over the details. I have heard a few things that I don't like, but people always lead with the bad. I'd like to hear the other argument, and see if there's any "there" there. I mean, really--what are the arguments "for" this thing? There have to be some, what are they?

I don't know if there's anything salvageable in it, if it can be cleaned up and made fair, or good, or great. Is it a few problem points that can be resolved, or is the entire thing just a "scratch it" mess.

[DanTex]

2. I am maintaining my principled "on the fence" stance on TPP. I've always believed

it would neither destroy the world nor save it. I think a lot of the criticism has been way overblown, I think that free trade is generally good, but at the same time there are legitimate concerns about TPP regarding things like pharma monopolies and ISDS.

Since the initial reports from TPP are that it is significantly better than previously leaked drafts, I am happy about that. This has changed my opinion from slightly opposed to basically neutral. As more details emerge, my opinion might change one way or the other.

The one thing about TPP I can say with confidence is that, if it passes, some people will blame it for everything bad that happens in the next ten years, and other people will credit it with everything good that happens.

[1StrongBlackMan]

93. I am in similiar space regarding TPP ...

but have never moved from "I have no opinion, since there was no agreement to form an opinion about."

Now that it has been made public that an agreement among the parties has been reached, I suspect my position will change, as I will be able to read it and will be aided by people (I trust) providing their learned opinions.

I long said that this agreement like all multi-party agreements will have some good, some bad; but, nothing great or truly awful ... that is just the nature of agreements.

I completely agree that if it passes, the people that were always opposed to it will blame it for everything bad that happens in the next ten years, and those that always favored it will credit it with everything good that happens ... but, the vast majority of Americans will be unaware of any effect from it.

[Garrett78]

142. If it's anything like other modern day agreements, it will be a disaster.

Modern day free trade is a travesty for reasons spelled out in this article: http://www.globalissues.org/article/40/criticisms-of-current-forms-of-free-trade#DefendingFreeTrade

Very few benefit, but they benefit in a big way. Most everyone else suffers as a result, some more than others. For instance, when cheap subsidized goods are allowed to cross a border, people lose their livelihoods. And, unlike those goods that can freely cross borders, people are forbidden from doing so even in the face of having their livelihood taken away. And the link to environmental degradation is also strong.

While many Americans are unaware of how free trade agreements impact them, they are impacted. The ignorance of the American people is not a good reason for going ahead with the TPP. To say nothing of how people in other parts of the world are impacted--borders are arbitrary, and we should care for everyone in the world equally.

[Android3.14]

104. <snickers>

Whatever.

[treestar]

145. +1

It is being used as a tool for anti-Obama people, and they wanted to use it as a tool against Hillary.

It did not sound to me like she is opposing it the same way - she is having issues with parts of it, and is likely not against the very concept of trade agreements, as some of these opponents are (without having any answer for what to do if we can't trade with other nations).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. My thoughts are here...

My thoughts are here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=655327


and here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=655294

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

4. Oh, but it's different now.

Even Krugman said that now it gives Republicans a sad, so of course Dems can now support it, right?

[HooptieWagon]

5. Looks like they're waiting for the weathervane to stop spinning.

"On the fence", "indifferent"...yea right. Can't take a position on important policy, just favoring the personality.

[cpompilo]

56. Hence the fervent support for Hillary. Birds of a feather so forth.

[Gloria]

81. And you wholeheartedly suppot how Sanders

Flip-flopped...correction...betrayed Ron Paul when he suddenly abandoned his Sen. bill to audit the Fed withhout warning and caved for the nothing compromise???



PS...I never liked the TPP...

[procon]

6. What's the point of all these constant flame wars?

Can't everyone support the candidate they choose? If the "Berie is ____" posts aren't satisfying a niche, start a personality cult, or write a sonnet detailing the love and admiration for the man. Other than pointlessly antagonizing those who support Clinton, and deliberately alienating those like myself who chose remain uncommitted to any candidate, posts like this neither change opinions or convince anyone to consider a candidate who attracts in this kind of intemperance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. These pleas for comity fall on deaf ears.

I just wish they would dump the jury system to the bottom of the sea and we can have the free for all so many truly yearn for.

I believe in giving folks what they want, good and hard...

[Fumesucker]

30. Be careful what you wish for

You are describing quite a few usenet newsgroups, some of which are dedicated to politics. I pretty much started there after graduating from local BBSes, it's fun at first but boring after a while because the signal to noise ratio is so awful. There's only so many insults you can read before they pall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#Moderated_and_unmoderated_newsgroups

[Aerows]

53. <--- Fellow usenet participant checking in. n/t

[jehop61]

8. Thank you

Some here believe DUrs are supposed to be in a contest to the death ....Hillary or Bernie. We are lucky to have such qualified candidates, unlike the republican with all their clowns.

[JoePhilly]

18. + 1

[morningfog]

9. People don't post in GDP to change minds or win other over.

They post here to rah rah their chosen candidate an poo poo on the others. It's just tribal bickering here.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. How is this a flame war?

For months we've heard from Clinton's supporters here, or at least some of them, what a great deal TPP is, and why we should all support it. Now their candidate has switched to opposing TPP, so it seems to me a legitimate question where these people now stand.

[procon]

17. Hogwash.

There are legitimate questions to be asked, but that's not one of them. No one owes you an explanation for which candidate they choose. Ever! Since gloating isn't all that productive, then be pleased that you now can now find common ground with your fellow Democrats of the loyal opposition at least on this one issue. There are probably as many reasons and rationales are there are voters, and if you are convinced to support one camp or the other then why would it even matter to you what someone else is doing if your own convictions are really sincere?

Look, there isn't even a pretense of trying to understand, let alone acknowledge, that an opposition exists because people are different and not identical facsimiles all sharing a single POV. We all evolve, our opinions shift as our positions reflect the dynamics of current events, new information is assimilated, our thoughts ripen or mature, or for any number of reasons you care to name. This is a good and needful thing and it is generally seen as a positive progressive character trait for Dems, and surely that hasn't changed or we would look more like Republicans who are uniformly locked into an immovable stance forever with no face saving way out.

[Warren Stupidity]

113. I didn't ask for "an explanation for which candidate they choose", I asked if they were a

principled supporter of TPP prior to yesterday, what is their position today? It seems an entirely legitimate question, not that anyone owes anyone here an answer to anything. This is after all a "discussion board", not an "interrogation room", and we are all free to post, within the rules, or not, as we choose.

[MADem]

127. Really? nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. You must have missed the anti-Bernie "racists" "Useless White Supremacist Liberals" threads.

You might want to search DU for them. They're just lovely. And that's just a fraction of the Anti-Bernie garbage that's been dished out here. Some real VILE crap.

They also have their very own new Antisemitic web site they just started that you might like to visit - someone else may have a link for you. They use that site to post all their extra-vile Anti-Bernie garbage.

So, please don't lecture Bernie supporters about being mean to Hillary and her supporters. Thanks.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[procon]

24. That's not the focus of this thread, yeah?

So why are trying to hijack it by switching to a new subject? Are you actually trying to make an argument to support some vindictive schoolyard tit-for-tat?

Look here; whatever people are post in other threads or various off site forums is the expected byblow of the internet. Everyone knows this, but after a bit most most of us learn not to become ensnared in such obvious traps or let our emotions become the victims to every transparent ploy that pops up. You?

If it appeals to your inner deputy that much, then please do follow your own advice, but leave me to mine.

[aidbo]

31. Respectfully, you brought up flame wars in this thread.

[Cali_Democrat]

45. I see you deleted your post where you said Bernie shouldn't jump through hoops for African Americans

Interesting how you deleted it almost two months later.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=525583

Can we take this as an apology?

[zappaman]

54. Ouch.

[darkangel218]

64. Maybe on you.

[zappaman]

68. LOL!!!!

Cheers!

[darkangel218]

69. I loathe Budweiser.

Glad to know you like it.

[zappaman]

70. My bad!

I forgot your brand!
Im a terrible host!
Although, be honest, both taste like shit.

[darkangel218]

71. Wrong again!

Oh my!

Lmaorofl!!!!!

[zappaman]

72. LOL!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018394942

Next?

[darkangel218]

73. That was 2 and a half years ago! I like Corona now

And your Bud pic was EPIC! At least we know what you like!!!

[zappaman]

74. Congrats for moving on to the next shitty beer!

By the way, are you on a timeout from DI again?
Funny how you go back and forth.

Have one on me!

[darkangel218]

75. Thats none of your concern, is it?

Or are you trying to get your posts hidden?

[zappaman]

76. Concerned? NO. Amused? YES!!!

[darkangel218]

77. Enjoy your Bud!!!!

[zappaman]

79. I'll make sure to pour one out upon your next time out, homie.

[darkangel218]

80. Youre calling a female " homie"?

Oh my...

[zappaman]

84. yes.

hom·ie
ˈhōmē/
nounUSinformal
an acquaintance from one's town or neighborhood, or a member of one's peer group or gang.

you are a member of my peer group, no?
and part of this neighborhood known as DU, no?

oh my...

[darkangel218]

87. Lame excuses for your personal attacks.

Last edited Thu Oct 8, 2015, 05:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Jury, let them stay. Let everyone know what this poster is about.

On edit: LMAOROFL!!!!

[zappaman]

88. Sorry your alerts didn't work out.

Hey, now you know 'homie" is not gender specific.
You're welcome!

[darkangel218]

94. What does the above pic have to do with the OP or my posts to you?

Are you fantasising you are a cop?? OMG, this is priceless!!! JURY, please let it stay! We might not see this for a while!!

[MADem]

128. I always thought "Homie" or "Homey" was a gender-free designator.

Someone from the neighborhood.

Someone who goes back to your roots:
Beyonce Opens Up About Daughter Blue Ivy: "She's My Homey, My Best Friend"

Read more: http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-moms/news/beyonce-opens-up-about-daughter-blue-ivy-shes-my-homey-my-best-friend-2013112#ixzz3o2RPYmDY

[darkangel218]

129. I guess I learned something today.

[Major Nikon]

83. Results...

On Thu Oct 8, 2015, 04:20 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Congrats for moving on to the next shitty beer!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=657592

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack. Poster is stalking and baiting DA into getting another hide.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Oct 8, 2015, 04:28 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nah
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't know either of these posters, but to me it looks they were laughing a lot together, and in the post in question DA didn't take the bait but handled the comment. And the poster in question backed off. I think that's how it's supposed to work.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: An inappropriate personal attack, adds nothing to the discussion.

[darkangel218]

62. You have deleted so many your posts in the past few days

Are those "apologizes" as well? (going by what you're saying)

[1StrongBlackMan]

95. If they find those ...

anti-Bernie "racists" "Useless White Supremacist Liberals" threads, I hope they will link to them. I've been asking to see them for quite some time and no one seems willing or able to produce one.

[upaloopa]

55. These are desperation OPs

Personally I am not concerned about the positions of Bernie supporters. I have listened to Bernie for years. Most all of us agree with them. Some of us want someone else for President. That drives them wild because Hillary is in the way of their revolution or so they think.
So bash Hillary and prove her supporters are lower than dirt. It eases the pain.

[Fred Sanders]

102. "I like your Bernie. I do not like your Bernie supporters. Your Bernie supporters are so unlike

Bernie."

[treestar]

146. lol!

very apropos.

[hrmjustin]

67. To bait Hillary supporters into hides.

[Aerows]

86. Aren't you better than this?

Maybe I was wrong, all this time.

[hrmjustin]

89. Wow! Do me a favor and don't send me pms anymore telling me your my friemd if you are going to

trash me in public.

[Aerows]

90. Damn.

Consider me unsubscribed to your newsletter.

[hrmjustin]

91. Good. I hate people who say one thing in private and another in public.

[Aerows]

92. Because I obviously do that

and I'm the one airing out dirty laundry on DU.

Thanks for jumping all over me, and yelling at me when I point out, quite rightly, that I thought you were better than such low behavior.

I guess I was wrong, after all.

[hrmjustin]

96. No you and others don't like that I speak out for Hillary and call Samders supporters out

when they deserve it.


You did this before. You trashed me in a thread publicly in july and 5 minutes later via pm told me how much you still loved me.

I am sick of this. Don't pm me anymore.

[Aerows]

97. Not to worry.

I apologize for wanting to remain your friend despite our differences in the candidates we support.

I won't make that mistake again.

[hrmjustin]

98. Good! I don't care for fair weather friends.

[darkangel218]

99. Neither do we, hrmjustin. Nt.

[Indepatriot]

11. If by chance the TPP starts polling well she'll have 2nd principled evolution...

[treestar]

147. If the people want something

what is wrong with the leader re-considering it?

At bottom of this type of criticism is an unrealized concept. The leaders ought to overpower us. "We the People" shouldn't be the drivers, but the leaders should be. Smacks of preferring a dictatorship. A real, tough, strong leader makes other people do what they want. Rather than the way of the US constitution where the leaders do what we want.

[Indepatriot]

153. I'm more than a little skeptical that she would change a long-held position if she were still

leading by 20 points in Iowa and New Hampshire. This isn't about Hillary Vs. Bernie. This is about the People Vs. Multi-national corporations who are seeking total control over our democracy. Hillary is indebted to them, Sanders is not. Period.

[treestar]

155. Corporations can't vote

People can. This corporate bogeyman is an excuse to avoid realizing that most voters are not in agreement with many progressive ideas.

[edgineered]

12. I look for a leader who can show me how to speak openly,

with statements that cannot be used to prove me wrong no matter the subject or my stance on them. Never again will I have to worry that my statements do not, did not, or ever will not support any feeling or beliefs of anyone, friend or foe.

[kelliekat44]

14. As soon as I learn the details i will let you know. nt

[artislife]

154. Yeah...so what did she learn in these few short weeks

Except that the debates were drawing nearer and Bernie was still drawing thousands each time he had a speaking engagement.

[randome]

15. I think it disingenuous to equate supporting Clinton with de-facto support of the TPP.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[bullwinkle428]

16. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to fail to acknowledge that some of

Hillary's most ardent supporters at this site have also been the most vocal proponents of TPP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I disagree...

The rough consensus suggests TPP is not an issue of primary saliency among her supporters. There are many positions that I support that if she opposed I would withdraw my support of her or any candidate in the proverbial New York minute. TPP, Keystone, and the reinstatement of Glass Steagall aren't any of them.

[randome]

25. 'Some'. I agree. That's not how the OP worded it. The implication is clear.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[Warren Stupidity]

114. You've read "all" into an op that did not make that assertion.

Have fun playing with that strawman. If you did not hold a position of principled support for the TPP then the question does not apply to you.

[stevenleser]

42. If it is so painfully obvious, link to some of the posts.

I personally don't usually participate in TPP threads because I am neutral on the TPP.

[Control-Z]

149. Same here.

I could see no point in being for or against something we knew so little about.

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. Yes, I am.

I don't have to agree with a candidate 100% of the time. Just like how some Bernie Sanders supporters can continue to support him despite his pandering to the NRA.

[tritsofme]

22. Yes, and I am very disappointed in Clinton for such a nakedly political move.

She stabbed Obama in the back on this before the ink was even dry. Her opposition is clearly disingenuous. Who really believes that she would not support this deal as president? For the first time, I think I will give Biden a fair hearing should he jump in.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. She doesn't want a repeat of 08 where she was flogged for her NAFTA support.

I nominally supported TPP but if it wasn't a hill I would die for so it would be unfair of me to ask the candidate I support to die on that hill...There are many hills I would die on which I have enumerated here but TPP isn't one of them.

I don't know what TPP's detractors believe will happen. I look around in my modest studio apartment. The only things U.S. made is some of my furniture.

[whatchamacallit]

28. Awesome, change your principles like a pantsuit to avoid political discomfort!

Now that's the kind of president I want!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. There are principles and there are issues positions.

There are principles I would literally die for...

I have said repeatedly there are issues that if I found HRC on the wrong side of I would withdraw my support in the proverbial New York minute.

[whatchamacallit]

34. Well, maybe you could instruct us

in the art of acceptable political expedience. Personally, I prefer people own and defend their beliefs and positions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. If every issue is of primary importance than no issue is of primary importance.

Access to medical care for all, equal rights for all, the right to live in a safe and clean environment, the right not to go hungry, the right to be paid a living wage for a hard day's work, the right of the child of a janitor to have the same opportunities as the child of a CEO, the right to a secure environment, the right not to be woke up in the middle of the night and not to be sent home to a country you left as an infant, the right to live in dignity regardless of your race, religion, creed, or sexual orientation..., these are the rights dear to me. I am not going to the ramparts to oppose a trade agreement.

[whatchamacallit]

36. That's nice but

we're talking about Hillary's triangulation, not yours. Let us know when you're running for president.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. When she violates those principles I will withdraw my support.

What part of that don't you understand ?

[whatchamacallit]

38. I think I understand clearly

You expect her to be consistent and steadfast on the issues you hold near and dear, and on everything else it's fine for her to flip-flop all over the deck.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Donald Trump is steadfast in his nativism. That is why I oppose him.

There are issues that are important to me and there are issues that aren't. Isn't the whole point of the franchise to allow voters to express their choice?

[mhatrw]

85. And the principle is corporations before country. nt

[Armstead]

33. That's kind of the point

"I look around in my modest studio apartment. The only things U.S. made is some of my furniture."

Thee reason for that is largely due to policies that have pushed a flawed model of globalization based on conservatuive principles and the corporate agenda over people.

International trade is good. But these agreements have cumulatively greased the wheels for the hollowig out of the American economy, and the colonizing of otehr nations by Global Corporations.

I know, I know "Cost of goods. Make things affordable...." But at what cost? I'd rather see Americans having higher wages with a working economy and decent jobs, and otehr nations not getting ripped off instead of being able to develop healthy self-sustaining economies of their own.

[TheKentuckian]

26. What I want to know is why Clinton is throwing Obama under the bus and now

either hates or at least is indifferent to the black community and/or generally a hateful isolationist because for months this was the name of many of Clinton supporters tunes on the subject until now of course.

Why O' why is Hillary Clinton running on repudiating the first black President's agenda as we have repeatedly been lectured can only be the case if someone opposes this signature portion of his legacy over the months?

I think I know the answer, the real one and it is that of course such a statement was nonsense, a filthy and underhanded lie asserted purely for political point scoring and candidate salting and that some folks will literally say anything if they think it helps them win either an argument on the Internet or helps their icon's political advancement.

Another thing I learned a long time ago is that no one can evolve so much so quickly and remain human.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://blog.youknowit.com/contact-lens-blog/index.php/go-boldly-to-the-party-with-star-trek-inspired-lenses/&h=479&w=638&tbnid=h1zgKXWVCNsbOM:&q=gary+mitchell&docid=mPB21Dtpi05fAM&ei=WoIWVqmMK4jj-QHQo4bYCg&tbm=isch&ved=0CGUQMyg7MDtqFQoTCKmhsrSPs8gCFYhxPgod0JEBqw

[whatchamacallit]

27. They're currently alternating between

"I wish she wasn't forced into opposing this important step in inevitable globalization, by a consensus of people who don't understand it" (or some such shit) and "See, Hillary is just like Bernie!"

[stevenleser]

29. I was neutral on the TPP before, and I am neutral on it now. nt

[LondonReign2]

143. Well, Clinton's latest pandering sure seems to be a case of, as someone once put it,

"perfecting how to talk out of both sides of her mouth"

[Zorra]

40. Excellent question. K&R! nt

[BainsBane]

41. That's quite the broad brush there

I never supported TPP, and the same holds true for a number of Clinton supporters I know.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. You're reading a claim that all Clinton supporters

also had a principled position supporting TPP where no such claim is present. If your support for TPP was unprincipled, for example, then the question would not apply to you.

[aspirant]

43. Do you think we can expect this same

Wishy-Washy response from all congressional supporters of TPP who have endorsed HRC.

Let's see just how sincere HRC is as an anti-TPP advocate. When will she start roaming the halls of congress, knocking on doors to whip up NO votes from her endorsers?

We'll be watching.

[Matariki]

44. lol

good question

[emulatorloo]

46. Warren Stupidity: excellent click bait and rec bait.

This is ultimately good for DU's financials, as this sort of pointless flame-baiting allows the admins to charge higher ad rates based on site traffic. More money for DU for all the annoying google ads. Thanks for doing your part to keep DU financially viable.

[darkangel218]

52. I'm not the OP, but you are obviously missing the point.

( and I sincerely doubt WS cares about clicks and recs).

Try again

[emulatorloo]

59. IMHO OP's "point" is to start a flame-war. I'm just glad it benefits DU's bottom line.

[darkangel218]

61. You are just wrong there.

emulatorloo
59. IMHO OP's "point" is to start a flame-war. I'm just glad it benefits DU's bottom line.

By that concept all OPs enticing discussion would be "flame-war"s. Not the case. Is the OP dishonest or insulting in any way?
It's really not cool to attack the OP and say their motifs are a " flame-war". No one is forcing anyone to participate. One can simply ignore the OPs question if not comfortable answering.

[emulatorloo]

63. The thread title is snarky and confrontational

One doesn't "invite discussion" with those rhetorical choices.

As Warren is allowed to title his threads any way he wants, I'm also allowed to recognize and analyse the rhetoric choices he made.

Take care.

[darkangel218]

65. No it is not.

It is a simple and forward question, as someone else pointed out below.
You are still OTT calling the OPs motifs "flame-war", "snarky" and "confrontational"". By that token ,no one can ask any questions in their OPs. OP was not insulting anyone. You on the other hand are. Calling outs are not cool. Allowed persheps, but not cool.

[emulatorloo]

78. I've read Warren's posts

Enough to know that he doesn't believe that there is any such thing as "principled support" for TPP and generally believes DU Clinton supporters are hypocrites.

That's why I find the thread title question to be disingenuous, snarky, and flame-baity.

Does that mean I think Warren is a "bad person?" No. The majority of his posts are solid and informative.

You can have the last word. Again take care of yourself.

[darkangel218]

101. He asked a straight forward question.

No one asked you to participate, and the OP wasn't addressed personally to you. So why the attacks?

[Warren Stupidity]

115. Oh hold on there. I most certainly do think that there are people who hold a position of

principled support for TPP. I disagree with them and I am dubious about what some of those principles are or what the implications of those principles are, but I most certainly do not think that nobody supporting TPP is doing so out of honestly held principles. That is just a ridiculous assertion on your part.

[emulatorloo]

116. Then maybe your thread title should reflect your true beliefs

Warren, to me it comes off as a Gotcha question.

You clearly already have an answer in mind. I'm not the only poster who sees it that way either.

Anyway, I always get a lot out of your posts

So even though I question your rhetorical strategies in this >single< OP, I am not going to argue about it any more.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. The question only applies to you if a) you support Clinton and b) you are a principled supporter of

TPP. If both of those aren't true, then the question doesn't apply to you. Quite a few posters stated "on the fence" or "undecided" or "don't support" - the question doesn't apply to them.

The outrage that this is a gotcha question seems to be coming from people who publicly support their candidate's positions regardless of their own personal beliefs and are now somewhat uncomfortable about having to do an about face on this issue. For those people, it is indeed a "gotcha" question, mostly because they have put themselves into a position that is untenable and dishonest. I'm sure they will get over it.

[emulatorloo]

124. Warren, I have an interest in rhetoric and rhetorical strategies.

I'm a bit of a student of rhetoric and rhetorical strategies.

That means I can recognize a gotcha question when I see one, even if I have no personal stake in the question.

FWIW, The "question" doesn't apply to me.

I hope you are not projecting your a) and b) on me as the reason I don't care for your rhetorical choices in this OP.

I really don't want to argue with you anymore. We aren't going to agree so let's drop it. I think you are a great poster, let's just leave it at that.

[Kali]

133. !

[Doctor_J]

132. We'll, we're dueling with things like this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251657853

[reformist2]

47. We DemsForHillary move lockstep in whatever direction our leader does. You should too. ;)

If you don't side with Hillary before the primary season even begins, you are only hurting our chances for victory!!!

[azmom]

48. So much for Hillary being a true fighter.

She didn't want to debate the issue on Tuesday so she caved.

[darkangel218]

51. That!!!!!^^

I was thinking the exact same thing!!!!!

[Android3.14]

105. He is going to mop the floor with this bonehead move

Either she has no conviction or she is untrustworthy.

Take your pick.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Are principles in the Triangulation Handbook?

[upaloopa]

57. Good a gotcha thread

Maybe some of us will say something really awful.

[darkangel218]

58. Why would some of you "say something really awful"? (quotting you here)

[YabaDabaNoDinoNo]

60. It is a simple direct question no gotcha involved

[upaloopa]

103. Remember the questions they ask candidates

like when did they stop beating their wives?
Like that a simple question

[YabaDabaNoDinoNo]

134. All yes the cult of personality response

[hrmjustin]

66. I never was for TTP. Your attempt to bait us into hides is transparent Warren.

[tishaLA]

108. Results:

I never was for TTP. Your attempt to bait us into hides is transparent Warren.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=657556

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Unwarranted personal attack against the OP! OP is not trying to bait anyone, Hrmjustin is personally attacking the OP with false accusations.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Oct 8, 2015, 09:57 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Clinton was for TPP and OP assumed that supporters supported her first decision and did not single out anyone in particular...
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: These alerts have gotten silly. There is nothing but nothing wrong with this post.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ridiculous.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: BS alert. Waste of time
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't even know what the alerted post means. The statement "Bait us into hides is transparent Warren" is lost on me. Shrug. Let it stand as I usually err on the side of open speech.


I can't even believe that anyone could believe this merited an alert.

[hrmjustin]

109. I have 4 hides and was out with 5 in September. If I get another I am out till late November so...

...someone is trying very hard to silence me.


Thank you and jury.

[tishaLA]

110. Ah, now it's clearer to me. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

111. Perhaps you should stop with the personal attacks then.

It isn't difficult to be civil. By the way, there is nothing in my OP that is baiting anyone into a hide. If you hold the positions "Supporter of Clinton" and "Principled Supporter of TPP" then the question asked applies to you, if not, then it doesn't. It is a fair question when a political candidate does a 180, particularly when that candidate's supporters have been advocating for her former position.

[hrmjustin]

119. In your mind it was a fair question but in the real world it was a loaded question.

And as for being civil you are the last person to judge anyone.

[Warren Stupidity]

120. Well it was just a suggestion, Justin. If you want to flame out again

that is of course your prerogative. On the other hand, try to just stop attacking people and stick to the issues. It really isn't that difficult.

[hrmjustin]

121. Spare me warren. You asked me the other day if was searching for responses to alert on.

[Warren Stupidity]

122. yes I did.

I'm sure you have a point there. Do you think that was a personal attack? It was an observation.

[hrmjustin]

123. And my point is an observation.

Cheers.

[cleanhippie]

138. "...someone is trying very hard to silence me."

[hrmjustin]

139. Glad you got a laugh.

[mhatrw]

82. which way is the wind blowing?

[darkangel218]

100. East, West, East North East, West!!!

[hifiguy]

106. Well played, sir.

Well played indeed!

[AngryAmish]

107. Your implication is sexist.

[Warren Stupidity]

112. That is so off the wall I have no clue how to respond.

Surely, you jest?

[moobu2]

117. No one I know has seen it so it's kind of hard to say.

[Doctor_J]

125. good question. my guess is that they will now be against it. then when the candidate flips back

After the convention, they'll be in favor again. Just a guess.

[darkangel218]

131. Lol!!

Probably

[HooptieWagon]

130. OP assumes HRH's supporters support her because of her positions.

Since they continue to support her while she flip-flops all over the map, that assumption appears to be false. There must be another reason they support her.

[YabaDabaNoDinoNo]

135. or they are just like her will say or do anything to win even if it is a lie.

[TheFarS1de]

136. Surely not ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251658816

.....maybe your onto something

[YabaDabaNoDinoNo]

137. Got to admit is is funny watching them flip and flop like a fish out of water on the ground!

The 'Yeah what Bernie' said campaign is becoming comical and pathetic now.

Not sure what is more sad and pathetic the Yeah what Bernie said campaign or those who continue to buy her BS.

The famous quote about useful idiots also comes to mind....

[Warren Stupidity]

140. Well really it is only the subset of supporters who also supported tpp

Last edited Sat Oct 10, 2015, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

That the op applies to. It is interesting that it seems that there was only one such person on du, at least only one who cared to respond. I could swear that there were a lot of tpp supporters back a while ago when Clinton was all for it, but I must be misremembering that.

[HooptieWagon]

141. I remember several TPP supporters, one in particular...

Who were extolling how wonderfull TPP was on DU. Strange that they're so silent on Hillarys flip flop.

[treestar]

148. Her position appears to be do what the People want

Not make them follow what she wants.

[Control-Z]

150. What's with the HRH?

Been seeping it a lot lately.

[treestar]

144. I can still support Hillary

regardless of what I think of the TPP. I don't have to agree with her on every single issue to support her.

How could I support anyone but myself with that standard?

[guillaumeb]

151. A weather vane will ALWAYS point in the direction that the wind is blowing.

Make of that what you will.

Or we could talk about the importance of being flexible and open to new discoveries.

[okasha]

152. I'll have a principled position after I read it.