2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe Trouble With Bernie Sanders
The trouble with BernieBY MICKEY HIRTEN
Oct. 7 2015 11:18 AM
Here's my problem with Bernie Sanders. With few exceptions, I agree with his positions on issues. But I don't like him or his political temperament. He'd be an awful president.
I followed him carefully when I was editor of the Burlington Free Press in Vermont. Sanders was the state's sole congressman, lived in Burlington, and would periodically visit with the newspaper's editors and publisher.
Considering that the Free Press' editorial positions were very liberal, reflecting the nature of a very liberal Vermont community, one might think that meetings with Sanders were cordial, even celebratory.
They weren't. Sanders was always full of himself: pious, self-righteous and utterly humorless. Burdened by the cross of his socialist crusade, he was a scold whose counter-culture moralizing appealed to the state's liberal sensibilities as well as its conservatives, who embraced his gun ownership stance, his defense of individual rights, an antipathy toward big corporations and, generally speaking, his stick-it-to-them approach to politics.
<...>
I'm not alone in my opinions about Sanders. Chris Graf, long-time Associated Press bureau chief in Vermont, in an article published Sept. 30 in Theweek.com, had this to say about the senator.
Bernie has no social skills, no sense of humor, and he's quick to boil over. He's the most unpolitical person in politics I've ever come across, Graf said. Others who have covered Sanders agree.
Read more:
http://lansingcitypulse.com/article-12189-The-trouble-with-Bernie.html
rsmith6621
(6,942 posts)....................just maybe! That is the person that America needs. We dont need a polished politician like Obama and Hillary are. We need a true person who speak from the gut for the heart of America.
At least with Bernie we know what to expect. Hillary on the other hand is a Trojan Horse.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I agree with his positions on issues. But I don't like him or his political temperament. He'd be an awful president.
<...>
Sanders was always full of himself: pious, self-righteous and utterly humorless.
<...>
Bernie has no social skills, no sense of humor, and he's quick to boil over.
I'm sorry, but I don't want a President with that kind of temperament. The President is someone who has to work with other people. Also keep in mind that the President is the one with the nuclear codes.
Even-keeled is best IMO.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Because HRC is certainly NOT even-keeled.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Thatcher. And I am also worried about someone who would tell a pretty detailed little story about being under sniper fire - ducking, running, not being welcomed by greeters or whatever - when none of that happened, and not only was that particular event sniper-free, but so was her entire trip. Recorded for all to see. I don't want that person answering the phone a 3 am. Seriously, what if she gets confused or "only human" again?
rsmith6621
(6,942 posts)And live in constant deception or a clown show. Hillary does not represent my honest best interest. She is changing her position more as the race goes on.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Or maybe we should ignore your daily "blogger sez Bernie's a jerk" posts.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)usual sagging bag of shit we have now just about everywhere. So someone's little feewings got hurt on a newspaper. Waa. Give me an old time dem which he is, and that is not only part of his charm but its flummoxing others who never saw one before over, everyone else. A charmer with a forked tongue, someone who is slick and 'nice' ... no. Give me an old time dem with fire, passion, focus. This article does nothing for me.
George Bush and Cheney had codes and nothing in their cankered souls but they spread war everywhere. No thanks. by the way, he's not unstable. "Also keep in mind that the President is the one with the nuclear codes'. You forget, he was the one running who didn't vote for war. Nice try though making him sound unstable.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You make sense, but I'm worried about Bernie. Not only when it comes to his ability to win, but I'm not sure he's been properly vetted.
Look, were on the same team. I don't want us to nominate someone who just isn't ready. I know the article I posted will cause consternation, but this has to be done.
If Bernie does win the nomination, I will fight for him against the GOP. But we need to make sure it's all out there before the convention. If he's someone with a quick temper, that's a problem!
Dustlawyer
(10,493 posts)Republicans, while Hillary is so HATED by them they would never work with her unless it was to pass another Wall Street BJ.
Another baseless attack. Try sticking to issues.
Anansi1171
(793 posts)dmosh42
(2,217 posts)looking for bribes and ass-kissers fromhe media? WTF!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I agree, it's pretty hard to post support for her positions when she keeps flip-flopping around. Makes it hard to trust her, even aside from her self-aggrandize get lies like coming under sniper fire in Bosnia. Then of course there's her war-mongering, including her support of dropping cluster bombs on children. And her "difficult and imperial" attitude towards her Secret Service detail. Yea, a grumpy old grandpa who's consistent and honest looks pretty good to me, and millions of others. I can see why Hillary supporters are so desperate.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Obama is brushing off attacks....from Clinton's 2008 campaign. The same sort of attacks they post every single day against Sanders.
So "style over substance" is not exactly surprising.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)We really think it's Hillaryous.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Have you seen any commentary that has described anyone having a positive working relationship with Bernie?
Like it or not, our current system of government and most systems of governance are based in comity and relationships.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)TYT weighs in:
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Just saying comity & relationships in Congress aren't necessarily a good thing particularly when it comes to the so-called "entitlements." Birds of a feather and all that. The social safety net used to be sacrosanct among Democrats, but the rise of the Third Way/New Democrats changed that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Time_Lord
(60 posts)Chimpy Z. McCokespoon's "sister-in-law"
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)"We came, we saw, he died" sounds like it came straight out of Henry K.'s playbook for Salvador Allende.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)George W. Bush: Hillary Clinton is like my sister-in-law
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2014/12/05/george-w-bush-hillary-clinton-is-like-my-sister-in-law/
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and just known.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I should have looked and seen who I was responding to and just known.
Aren't passive-aggressive put downs so much fun?? And so mature? It sure is fun, when confronted with evidence, to ignore it and simply attack the other person. Seems to be a pattern.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm going to respond, "Whatever" to whatever grown up, non-"passive aggressive" sh!t you post. K?
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)"whatever" as much as you'd like.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I find it is best to try to dismiss them by making a personal attack on the poster. Don't you?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/whatever%20gif" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="whatever gif photo: whatever.gif"/></a>
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)ebayfool
(3,411 posts)I'm gobsmacked - he just put it right out there and Ryan was not surprised one bit.
Quickly working my way to pissed!
Rilgin
(787 posts)I do not know him personally. However, until the current race, I have never heard a negative public word about his character or personality. Almost universally democratic talking heads, interviewed politicians and commentators have been respectful towards him and have seemed to like him. This is not proof that the current attacks are just attacks but its some evidence.
For more positive evidence that he works with others. He was a co-founder of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. It grew from Six to Seventy Members according to Wikipedia. Thus clearly he is able to work and relate to some others and his association with this caucus did not send others heading for the hills.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)not saying something bad about someone is not attestation to a positive relationship.
You mean the Progressive Caucus that only one of its membership has come out to endorse him ... that would suggest that they like his positions but not the delivery.
Rilgin
(787 posts)However, none of these have said that they can not work with him or that he does not have good relationships with them.
It also does answer your question. It is not proof but is pretty good evidence that he does not get along badly with others. Till this campaign have you ever heard a negative word about Bernie's character and we do know that he was one of six co-founders of a big caucus and has worked on numerous bills with others. Since even people who know him might not in fact know his inner characer, this is evidence that he at least does not have negative relations with others. I think although not proof (as if such a thing could exist) it addresses the point of your question. Further on the other side, I have seen numerous commentators, pundits, democrats, say for years (all the way up to this election), how much they love Bernie.
My most cynical thoughts are that it is also an actual endorsement of his desire for a better politics. Most of these politicans probably correctly recognise that if they endorse Bernie, Hillary will remember and add to some form of informal black list but if they endorse Bernie, he wont. As politicians they are probably wise to endorse Hillary early.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The present climate in Washington is anything but comity or relationships.
It's been that way for a while now so I'm not sure what alternate reality you are visiting us from.
...but welcome nonetheless.
In addition, I would rather have a straight shooter for president, that is percieved by the corrupt establishment as hard-nosed...or principaled in the real world, that a faur weather politician who evolves to suit their, or their corporate backers, own needs.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Is my point ... so the answer is NOT introducing another comity/relationship-challenged player.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Since 2008, could have come about without coming and relationships ... then, I don't know what to say, and will happily leave you to your "reality."
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)How about TPP?
Great strides there and all.
Hey, I believe that you dropped these...
ancianita
(35,816 posts)When you think about it, if Bernie has been the only right vote cast on certain key bills, it stands to reason that he would usually stand alone.
In that sense his past votes prove that he's got vision and guts, which, to me, are more positive leadership qualities than the "working with" rule, which tends to promote hive mindedness around DC. Even if his being "not positive" is a concern, that label should never mean that his relationships are necessarily negative. Working relationships are goal-oriented, and not relationships in the back-slapping sense that many would like.
Perhaps it's all that "comity and relationships" that's the problem with our current government.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Discussion of working with Bernie:
But those who work with him in Congress see Sanders differently. Miller called him a "realist" whose inability to play coy was refreshing.
"He is very open and honest as he goes through the process," Miller said. "You know where Bernie is coming from."
Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who helped write the Senate version of the VA reform bill, praised Sanders for having the gumption to drop F-bombs one minute and counteroffers the next.
"Negotiating with Bernie was not a usual experience, because he is very passionate and he and I are both very strong-willed people and we spend a lot of time banging our fists on the table and having the occasional four-letter word," McCain said. "But at the end of the day, Bernie was result-oriented."
Not a bad review of working with him, all in all...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/04/bernie-sanders-2016_n_7514328.html
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)He said he didn't feel it was his role.
So, yes, Mr. Hirten, you were badgering him.
He gave you an answer. You just didn't like the answer he gave.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)I thought what you posted when I read it....the guy badgered him and he eventually told him f-off.
I think most people are a mixed bag when it comes to working with them.
I don't find these articles helpful about BS or HRC.
djean111
(14,255 posts)support? Does not compute.
Here is the important thing to me about Bernie - he does not pander. All the things that Stephen Leser said about Hillary, in 2008 - I do not think she has changed one iota. I don't want that for president.
He is not a proponent of a "more muscular foreign policy (otherwise known as our kids' boots on the ground)", he does not want to increase H-1B visas, he does not advocate for fracking, I sincerely doubt he would not want us to stop using cluster bombs. He is not in Wall Street's vest pocket.
I cannot comprehend backing a candidate who is FOR all of that, but (arguably) has more social skills.
If being POTUS was the equivalent of being the Monarch of England, I could this guy's point. But it is not.
So, really, this is simple - don't vote for him. That's all anyone has to do, if they don't like him. Vote for Hillary. But to expect others to change their support just because of someone's personal dislike of Bernie - not going to happen.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Thanks for tossing another turd into the punch bowl.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Screw the popularity contest. Vote on the issues.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Have you seen any commentary that has described anyone having a positive working relationship with Bernie?
Like it or not, our current system of government and most systems of governance are based in comity and relationships.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Three weeks ago he was being attacked as a "Pacifist".
Ten days ago he was to much of a militarist.
Now he is hard to work with.
Next he will be a push over.
We have not heard any commentary about positive working relationships with Bernie because that is the norm. Only the unusual is news worthy.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Bernie being a pushover.
JEFF9K
(1,935 posts)I tried to get a picture of him smiling for a video I was making. Taking pictures off the TV screen during an interview, there wasn't a single smile. The best I could do was a non-angry shot which I Gimped to turn up the corners of his mouth.
djean111
(14,255 posts)You must not have tried very heard, methinks. Took me 30 seconds to find it.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/olhzfp/the-nightly-show-with-larry-wilmore-soul-food-sit-down---bernie-sanders
deutsey
(20,166 posts)JEFF9K
(1,935 posts)As it turned out, I got a rather funny shot, although not smiling, that I was able to use.
Here is a link to the video, if you are interested:
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)election over and over with what? 71% of the vote) is what is passing for DON'T VOTE FOR HIM! now. when has anyone you know won over and over with that vote? And how can you dispute the phenom he has become? We aren't dumb. We will go with him. Thanks.
Autumn
(44,762 posts)ornotna
(10,763 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)This isn't an editorial. It is a list of whining, personalized, pile of insults masquerading as being relevant. It barely event touches on the issues and seems more designed to act like the kind of thing you would find on a useless blog. Throw as much mud as you can and see if anything sticks.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Like I give a flying fuck what some nobody cheapshot artist "thinks."
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)as I read DU during primary season.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Have you met Mr Kettle?
azmom
(5,208 posts)Messy hair. Can't have that. Angry socialist with messy hair. Scary stuff. Be scared, very scared. Oh, I almost forgot he goes tie less a lot of the time. LOL
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And, make primary races that aren't the usual tweedle dum vs tweedle dee a helluva lot more interesting.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)I expect a Geocities link by dinner.
Myrina
(12,296 posts)Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt come to mind.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)was mentioned once as Bill's 'battered wife'. I have never forgotten that remark.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)tularetom
(23,664 posts)Like Harry Truman, he doesn't give her hell, he just tells the truth and her supporters think its hell.
Vinca
(50,170 posts)Bernie has social skills like anyone else and a great sense of humor (he's a regular at a cow milking contest in Brattleboro). I've followed his career - first as a Vermont resident and now from across the river - and met him on a couple of occasions. The only thing I've noticed about Bernie that people may not like is that he will look them in the eye and tell them a hard truth whether they want to hear it or not.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)sounds like my whole family
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)are meaningless. If you've ever been in a position of authority, you know there is always a handful of people on your team who just don't like you and will misinterpret your every move.
For one thing, I don't know Bernie personally but he is not humorless. I have never seen a politician as able to talk about complex issues in a plain-spoken manner, never pious or self-righteous.
This doesn't help Hillary get the nomination. Nor do the gossipy smears on Hillary help get Bernie the nomination.
Boomer
(4,159 posts)>> Bernie has no social skills, no sense of humor, and he's quick to boil over. He's the most unpolitical person in politics I've ever come across, Graf said. Others who have covered Sanders agree. <<
I can live with this. Trying to schmooze with the Republican party is a distraction and hasn't worked for Obama.
If Bernie becomes the next president, his win sends a warning shot across the bow of both Republicans and Democrats. Start working for the 99% or GTFO.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)pass this law" I'm sure they would be quaking in their boots! The bully pulpit is highly over rated
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Past presidents have used it to great effect. I imagine Bernie would, too.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)never lived long enough to see a dem do that I can understand your confusion. GO, BERNIE!
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Maybe they haven't lived long enough to see it in action. But they've lived long enough to read a few books or watch a Ken Burns documentary.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)would be 84 today. Hugs to all. Now go hug your mamas.
enid602
(8,524 posts)No wonder the repubs snd conservative press have given him a free pass this far. They'll slaughter him if he gets the nomination.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)They want to run against Bernie.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)ish of the hammer
(444 posts)KIND OF SHALLOW.
but it's America, and even tea baggers get to vote for whatever reason and for who ever they want to.
good enough for me.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)do we now have to resurrect the thread about Hillary and her temper from former Secret Service agents? Give me a break. Bernie is a practical idealist and he doesn't suffer fools gladly. Good for him. I think he's got the right kind of temperament to cut through all the bullshit and maybe actually get something done to help people in this country, even if the description above is true, and I have my suspicions about that.
thesquanderer
(11,955 posts)Did you see this?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251657896
So okay, they're ostensibly both capable of telling someone to f*ck off.
I'm sure you can find people who will attest to either one of them being pleasant or unpleasant people.
Will anyone really choose a candidate over any of this stuff?
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)because of... wait for it... his supporters. Who the hell knows what other silliness they'll glom onto.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)to the pearlie gates with this. No consistency.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)And if there's one thing this board does well, it's call out bullshit. A shining example is that vocal minority who absolutely trashed Hillary in 2008 (attacking her character, not criticizing policy). Magically, in 2015, all is forgiven! Who do they think is buying this crap, other than their buddies at their sad little website?
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And that is why I support Bernie unreservedly.
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,284 posts)but he won't.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)... hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)Why doesn't he just tell us what we want to hear, in vague terms that he can't get pinned down on, and then after he gets elected he can do whatever the fuck he wants.
That's what everybody else in the presidential race is doing. It's what happened with pretty much every president in the past 30 years. Bernie Sanders should do it too.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)In horror of your perfect response:
mmonk
(52,589 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)dsc
(52,130 posts)He isn't running for prom king. A case can be made that some people skills are necessary but he doesn't need to be the most well liked human on the planet to be President.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)That is your dilemma.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)I trust him because he has been on these issues for years, whereas Hillary "evolves"
GoneOffShore
(17,309 posts)This is really getting old.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)That's his real sin.
If he hadn't chosen to do the he'd be back to being Democrat's favorite "idealist"
romanic
(2,841 posts)[IMG][/IMG]
SunSeeker
(51,378 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Yeah, be above all that, but it won't get you any legislation.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)72DejaVu
(1,545 posts)However, the fact that Maureen Dowd hates Hilary is something that is of utmost importance for some reason.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)So, yeah, not of utmost importance... at all.
72DejaVu
(1,545 posts)On that, we can agree.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)Her comment from the comments section of this hit piece:
Speaking as the current Director of the Vermont Progressive Party (and former Bernie staffer), Bernie has done a great deal to mentor, support, and bring up other Progressives in state politics over the years. I can't speak to his relationship to our Party in 1991 (because I was 9), but some of the Progressive Party's star players (like Sen. Anthony Pollina, Rep. Chris Pearson, Rep. Susan Davis, Rep. Robin Chesnut-Tangerman & Rep. Diana Gonzalez-- just to name a few) have Bernie to thank for helping them get their start in politics. Perhaps we shouldn't be relying on characterizations of Bernie's temperament from 20 years ago? I don't know about you, but I know I've changed a lot in 20 years too. Bernie has mellowed with age and experience in the public sphere, but what's important is his message and values remain the same.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
no_hypocrisy
(45,774 posts)And I think he worked out pretty well.