2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumA genuine concern about the general with Hillary
Last edited Wed Oct 21, 2015, 01:10 PM - Edit history (1)
I have a genuine concern and no, I'm not trying to be a "concern troll" either so y'all know.
My concern I feel is legitimate and it's about the general election.
I feel Hillary is unelectable in a general & I will explain why and honestly, I am damned concerned about this. I know many of her supporters will just blow this post off but I'm honestly ask you all to just hear me out and read, please.
I don't believe that Hillary is capable to reach across the aisle to gain Republican, undecided and independent voters. Democrats simply can't win an election just by getting and motivating the base to vote. (As many of you know, I'm an indy myself) Yes, there's a chance she will be the nominee but that is only half the battle. The general is a whole other ballgame entirely and if Trumo is the nominee, which right now it's looking like a very real possibility, liberals are in really huge trouble.
You essentially have one of the most polarizing politics, Hillary, versus a very high profile outsider, Trump. Yes, he's a jackass, we all know this but people are completely sick and fed up with politicians and Washington in general. Trump has never served in any political office and that is a gigantic draw for so many. It's the reason why Trump & Carson are in the front lead on the other ticket.
I truly fear that when you combine the above along with the rights absolute disdain and hate for Hillary, you have the perfect storm for liberals to lose this election and possibly by quite a large margin. Hillary, while she energizes the base, doesn't energize anything else other than that. We need to be realistic about this. She has her fans, sure but we simply can't ignore the fact that if she is the nominee, she would make the GOP base show up in droves just to vote against her. Absolutely massive amounts.
We're treading in very dangerous territory here. When you honestly stop and you think about it all, it hits you pretty hard.
Tomorrow you'll see what I'm talking about when the Benghazi hearings begin. Ya, we know it's bullshit but they don't and they believe it like it's written in stone. Watch the news in the coming days and what the headlines are. I promise you, there's no love from the right for anything Hillary related yet many of us seem to blind to this fact and think Hillary will reach across the aisle to work with Republicans. This is fantasyland and already we have a member of the Republican party saying if she's elected, he will draw up impeachment papers on her very first day.
I keep saying this but if Hillary is elected and if Republicans still control congress and they probably will be, we're royally screwed as a country. Her entire tenure will be one big ass Benghazi hearing and that my friends scares the living hell out of me.
A lot.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)That word has been mentioned more times on DU that it has on Faux Snooze!
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Read again what I said please. Closely.
That "B" word is one reason why she isn't electable in a general. The right will see to it that she doesn't win. Do you honestly think republicans will stay home if Hillary is the nominee?
Think. About. It.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)A guest's dislike of porcine mushrooms the other day at a party was so strong that it overrode her manners and sense of what is appropriate. I'm afraid it lead her to share her distaste with a lot of people she mistakenly assumed were just pretending to like the dish, which was hardly the case.
In any case, I posted a list of HRC's endorsements here that ran down for screen after screen after screen, and just kept going and going. Mostly professional political figures who felt that she was not only electable, but the most electable person sharing their values.
It's on Wickipedia. Even if you don't like her, you might take a peek at it and think about it.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)A black man. If ever they were gonna vote in full force, that would have been it. And yet Obama won by landslide margins.
Just sayin....
Now continue on with your concern.
72DejaVu
(1,545 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,781 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)I really fear a low turnout election if Clinton wins the nomination. I know she will be unable to carry my swing state. And I have concerns about many others.
The people saying she'll totally crush everyone by citing national polls demonstrate they don't understand the problem. You don't need a candidate that can get 80% of NY and CA. You need a candidate that can get 51% of CO, IA, NC, VA, NM, and so on. What little polling that is coming out of those states is troubling.
Add in all the little "fuck yous" like limited debates and other slights that are coming from the establishment, and we're in very real danger in the general election.
And we're also in danger of turning Millennials into another GenX - low turnout because no party gives a damn about what they want. That is going to hurt us far, far beyond 2016.
It really looks like lots of people are only interested in "rooting for their team", and have spent very little effort thinking about the larger picture.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)why is this any different?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)and question!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I mean that's what it comes down to.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)and that's the thing. Hillary WILL make the Republican base turn out in droves. They are united in their hate for her. That is a fact. Prove me otherwise.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It's all opinion until the election.
And I'm watching a video of Ann Coulter why? I'm on my phone so I'm not going to use my data for that, if you had a point there just let me know.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Listen to what she says. She's correct.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Again, on my phone. I'm a mellenial we do that, we also don't want to use our limited data on videos of Ann Coulter.
What's the point she makes, cut to the chase.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)like i have
She basically says Hillary would make the GOP base show up in droves and that Sanders is much harder to beat than Hillary.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Tell us more about what Ann Coulter said so I can plan my day accordingly!!!
pinebox
(5,761 posts)but on this point, she's correct that the GOP base will show up in droves. You laugh. I worry because laughing shows you simply don't understand what the right is doing to Hillary.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Prove me wrong. Go for it. Prove me wrong right now, how a Hillary nomination in a general won't make the GOP base show up in droves. Go for it. Do it.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)opponent as HRC for one they think would be easier to beat? You'll be hearing a lot more of this. Think it all over, but don't forget to consider the source and ask yourself, "Okay, I've heard variations of this from a number of people now. What's in it for them?"
I was watching for Joe Scarborough, a heavyweight water carrier for the GOP, to start playing up Bernie. I figured that would be a positive sign that the right thought he had become something they could use against HRC, and -- big surprise -- he's now "very impressed" with Bernie.
Your job, of course, is to make them just as sorry for a lethal mistake in strategy as they ended up in 2008. If you succeed, I'll be with you in the general.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It may have lost it hands
emulatorloo
(44,069 posts)She is as duplicitous as the come. Getting in bed with her is not the way to win Bernie Sanders the nomination.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Go watch the fucking video. She's correct. What does she say? The Republican base will show up in droves in droves to vote against Hillary. She's right. Prove that point wrong. Go ahead. Go for it. She also says Bernie is harder to beat. She's right.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Don't come in here and demand that people listen to Ann fucking Coulter.
She said the same fucking thing about Obama and the Republican base. She was wrong then (and fucking stupid) and she's wrong now (and still fucking stupid).
Response to JTFrog (Reply #47)
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JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I will vote because it is my right to vote. I don't care if you reveal who you are voting for or not.
"Vote at your own peril". Is that supposed to be some sort of stupid threat?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)the source and consider what might be in it for them.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)Wow.
emulatorloo
(44,069 posts)The woman has a long history.
There is no way to know if that woman means what she says, she will say fucking anything.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)How's this http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll
How about this?
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-surprising-numbers-republicans-have-been-voting-bernie-sanders-vermont
Why Surprising Numbers of Republicans Have Been Voting for Bernie Sanders in Vermont
If Sanders ends up being the Democratic nominee for president, his GOP opponent is going to have a hard time beating him.
Funny how Thom Hartman backs me up isn't it?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Any why not? Many, many have realized the leaders they put their trust in have been betraying them for decades now.
As for fealty to the GOP, we know that there are people who may be socially conservative but are also ideology-free or liberal economically. Bernie's a natural for them.
There are also other conservative types whose ideology does not require them to stay loyal to any one party. In any case, I think their support of Bernie is great. Both because I think it's smart of them, but also because it means that the passionate base the GOP relies on so heavily is unraveling. !
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Hell, they won't even watch the clip.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)The obvious things which are obvious aren't so obvious to some around here http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Coulter is a piece of shit. Listening to her makes people stupid.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)prove her point wrong. Go for it. You can't.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)If a black dude could get elected then Hillary can get elected. You think a scary black man on the ticket didn't unite the tighty whitey righties?
A black dude doesn't equal Hillary.
Obama was literally brand new and had very little baggage when he ran originally.
Hillary has decades worth, literally.
You really think Hillary can unite the right? Tell me tomorrow after the Benghazi hearings how you feel and if the RW media says "Hillary was great". Sorry, it's not happening and it never will, ever. Hillary's favorability and likability ratings are far under water, don't forget that. She can unite the dem base but outside of that, no.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)This is called an opinion, you are entitled to that. As are others.
We won't know until we get there.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)so we shall find out.
musiclawyer
(2,335 posts)Just the opposite. The millenials just won't vote. A lot of bernistas won't vote. And A sizeable number of Republicans WILL vote for Bernie. I work with dozens of them --talk to them everyday. They think Bernie is honest. The socialist thing is meaningless to them. They are human beings and grave integrity. They despise HRC like coakroaches in a fridge.
HRC = president Trump or whoever the GOP push on to the public.
quickesst
(6,280 posts).... are drooling over the possibility of Sanders as the nominee. I don't understand how that is not obvious. Lifting Bernie up with one hand while bashing Clinton with the other. Geez. Disheartening to see people on the left so susceptible to reverse psychology.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Thom Hartman thinks you're wrong
Why Surprising Numbers of Republicans Have Been Voting for Bernie Sanders in Vermont
If Sanders ends up being the Democratic nominee for president, his GOP opponent is going to have a hard time beating him.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-surprising-numbers-republicans-have-been-voting-bernie-sanders-vermont
Show me anywhere in any poll where Hillary is leading or tied with Republican front runners among Republican voters because I can show you this. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll
What ya got?
quickesst
(6,280 posts)...that Bernie and/or his supporters embracing the republican party will make any difference in the outcome of the primaries. It's an opinion, and it's mine.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)EVER.
For fuck sakes.
This is DU, not freeperville.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)This is DU and the show is extreme liberal left show. Amirght? Why yes I am! Holy shit! Imagine that! lol
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I don't listen to a word that dude says. He is an Ayn Rand libertarian.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Maher is a libertarian? What?
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)I call horsehit he's a libertarian. Actions speak louder than oped's.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)but obviously you can't recognize horseshit because you are promoting Ann Coulter on DU.
FFS dude, you should really stop. It has been eye opening for sure, but you should really stop.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)from posting facts?
http://hollowverse.com/bill-maher/
Libertarians don't give a million bucks to a dem candidate or support the last 3 dem candidates. Sorry.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I don't give a fuck what links you bring in here dude.
You are wrong to be pushing this shit here. Ann Coulter is wrong and stupid. Bill Maher is a Libertarian.
There are your facts.
Now go ahead and just keep posting ridiculous shit here.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Quit whining already. Seriously. I'm going to send ya case of Kleenex before long.
If you have nothing to say about my original comments above and want to hyperfocus on something which isn't related to the issue at hand, go have that conversation with yourself.
Ignore is a beautiful thing.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Deal with it.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)Because this is starting to sound a bit fucking stupid, to be honest.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)you not realizing Bill Maher is a Democrat party-liner who donated $1,000,000 towards Obama's reelection campaign.
have fun with that.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2012/02/bill-maher-donates-million-dollars-to-obama-pac.html
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)http://hollowverse.com/bill-maher/
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)They aren't mutually exclusive.
mcar
(42,278 posts)To prove that your opinion is fact?
I think we have reached peak cognitive dissonance.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)But you think he's electable?
olddots
(10,237 posts)that you fight evil with evil like we have been told that good can't win depending on what the kleptocracy has decided to feed us like we are robotic market segments .
frazzled
(18,402 posts)could "reach across the aisle" any better? Especially one who could garner more than 50% of the votes and/or a majority of the electoral votes? I'm very curious.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)Dream on.
(I thought that thread was too crazy even to respond to.)
Look, I don't disagree that Clinton could have a tough time winning a general. I just think Sanders would have 10 times more of a tough time winning. Really. I've walked the streets in several states for candidates in prior elections, knocking on doors and talking with all kinds of Americans. This "revolution" ain't happening.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)When Sanders is already has Republican support? I think my response already already pretty much demonstrated that. More of a reality check though http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll
frazzled
(18,402 posts)You've got to be kidding. Look, Hillary Clinton had stratospheric approval ratings in New York State when she was senator there for 2 terms (including the support of 50% of Republicans):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton
Do you think that means she could win over 50% of Republicans in a general election for the presidency? Not in a million years. Probably next to none. And my sincere belief is that Sanders would fare even worse.
State polls about incumbent (or former) senators are not an indication of anything having to do with a general election. Except to say that if Hillary is the nominee she will carry New York in a general election. And if Bernie is the nominee he will carry Vermont. There are 49 other states. (Besides, if we're talking about winning one's home state, Vermont has 3 electoral votes, New York has 29.)
Why kidding?
People by and far don't know Bernie Sanders. Right?? Right. Hillary has a 99% name recognition. See what happens when people do know Bernie? VT is an illustrative example.
Check this out. It was just posted here on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=710418
Check the poll numbers between Bernie and Hillary when facing GOP candidates. Do you see that?
frazzled
(18,402 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)Sorry but it's there
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)is about a Hillary that doesn't exist.
It doesn't match her record
It doesn't match the opinion of the majority
It doesn't match reality
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Go ahead, prove me wrong. Go for it.
Do you honestly think Republicans will stay at home if she's the nominee? Do you NOT see what is happening with her in terms on a national scale with the right? Nobody and I mean NOBODY is ostracized as much as Hillary is from the right and that includes Obama. It's literally decades deep in hate.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)It is possible for independents, and even some Republicans, to approve of her, and that makes it possible for her to win a general election. That's not surprising, since she remains the overwhelming favorite at bookmakers to win, and they don't set odds like that for an impossibility.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner
So, yes, you are wrong that she's unelectable. No-one should deny that she is eminently electable; though that doesn't mean she is the inevitable winner.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)This is 22 hours old.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)You said she is 'unelectable'. You're wrong, because she is able to get strong support, and thus get elected. She is 'electable'.
As far as likelihoods go, Hillary's net 8% disapproval is better than Trump's 16%, or Bush's 16%. Carson has a net 12% approval, but he is a religious nutcase, who has just decided to market a book for 2 weeks - either because his handlers think they need to stop him saying stupid things, or because he's not that keen on becoming president. Rubio is only net 2% disapproved of, but he's only 34% favorable - he's still not known by everyone, and is not setting the Republicans, let alone Americans, on fire yet. She still stands a very good chance against any possible Republican candidate.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I'd like to think I am but I don't believe I'm wrong.
The problem arises in swing states.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/2016-presidential-swing-state-polls/release-detail?ReleaseID=2287
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)and quite electable. eg Florida (the biggest):
Clinton gets 43 percent to 44 percent for Bush and gets 45 percent to Carson's 43 percent. She gets 44 percent to 42 percent for Fiorina and 44 percent to Rubio's 45 percent. Clinton tops Trump 46 - 41 percent.
Sanders slips behind Bush 45 - 41 percent and loses to Carson 46 - 40 percent. He gets 41 percent to 42 percent for Fiorina. He trails Rubio 46 - 41 percent and beats Trump 46 - 41 percent.
To be frank, your 'concern' is shining through in this thread, despite your attempt to deny it in the OP. Who you're really concerned for, I don't know, and don't really care.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)then why are you bothering wasting minutes responding to me?
Hillary doesn't have the ability to garner indy and republican votes. That is needed a huge problem in a general. I don't know what else to you. She'll alienate Bernie supporters as well, many of them, if she's the nominee and her support among millennials is incredibly low.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/poll-millennials-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-214874
Hillary Clinton still leads Bernie Sanders 45 percent to 31 percent, essentially unchanged from last month's survey. But among those born between roughly 1985 and 1997, 54 percent back the democratic socialist senator from Vermont. Just 26 percent supported Clinton, down from 34 percent in September and 36 percent in August.
My concern right now is if she's the nominee, Dems have a huge problem and it's justified. Do you think her favorability ratings will go up after tomorrow? I don't.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)and that's a good thing for DU. You've blown your credibility with this thread, and people will link to it in the future and agree 'concern troll'. So we've played along with you, until you've made it crystal-clear you are here to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about Democrats. You've failed.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #88)
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muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)See the posting and defending of Ann Coulter's opinion elsewhere in this thread.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Thank you.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)I want you to THINK. I'm not picking a fight. I'm asking you to use you're noggin.
And I got a video of Ann Coulter thrown at me.
it's from Bill Maher! lol What do you know!?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)I'll watch it eventually when I'm on wifi.
But seriously it's all opinion until Election Day, then it's not.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)No matter who we nominate, Republicans are going to retain the House, so fuck 'um.
Obama tried for five years to reach across the aisle, and proved that they will not even pass programs they like with a Democrats name on it, so fuck 'um
Yes, Benghazi! So fuck 'um.
Impeachment? Fuck 'um.
Republicans will do what they gotta do. If we let their antics control who we nominate, they win,so fuck 'um.
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)OK, then...
I'll keep that in mind as I read your post...reading...
Well, candidate Clinton is leading in every poll, nationally, by a pretty large margin. She's also beating the Republican candidates in national polling about the General Election.
So, I'm not really seeing the reason for your "genuine concern," frankly. It seems misplaced, really. I think y'all can safely drop your concern about that.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)making fun that I typed "y'all.
That margin you speak of is incredibly narrow http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html and within the room for error.
Clinton 45.7
Trump 43.2
Am I concerned? Yes and you should be too.
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)Biden's not running. Watch the polls!
pinebox
(5,761 posts)However I'm not entirely sure this will help Hillary and instead help Bernie.
Remember, he's been lobbing bombs the last week at her.
There's no love lost between the Obama administration and the Clinton's.
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)you can bet I will!
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)OP is correct in citing concerns about certain swing states.
And Hillary isn't Obama. She has a lot more baggage and far less charisma.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)they have already promised impeachment on day one. republicans will crawl over broken glass to vote against her. millenials will stay home or vote third party. congress will be a bloodbath.
she is thinking of her own political future and not the future of this country, but that does not surprise me. It's what she's always done.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)My post brings up some genuine concerns yet people just want to hyperfocus on something which is completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. It's sad that so many aren't willing to see what it is I am saying. FFS our country is at stake!
onenote
(42,598 posts)nominee is, you're whistling past the graveyard.
I'm a Bernie supporter but I'm not so blind as to pretend that he can win in a cakewalk. If he gets the nomination, he will be targeted with attacks we can't even begin to imagine. And if we don't stick together, we can't win. But the same thing goes if Bernie doesn't get the nomination. If folks pack it in and don't support her, then they really don't understand what is at stake. Moving from Clinton to the next Bernie is a much shorter path than the one that will be faced if we end up with a repub president whose scotus appointees will preserve and expand CU, who will roll back same sex marriage, will support the further evisceration of voting rights.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)will feel later like they were in some time warp..they will be so stunned when the shit hits the fan
onenote
(42,598 posts)Not those of us that want a Democratic president.
I'm supporting Bernie in the primaries, not because I think he's some sort of savior, but because I want his ideas and policies, with which I agree, to get as full a hearing as possible. If he gets the nomination, I'll be happy and work for him in the general. But if he doesn't get the nomination, I will throw my support wholeheartedly to the individual (probably Clinton unless something dramatic happens between now and the convention). Because the stakes are too high and I won't stand idly by and watch the next generation or two be saddled with a Supreme Court that reverse the marriage equality decision, will preserve and extend Citizens United, will continue to uphold the evisceration of voting rights and so on. And I won't stand idly by while a repub president and repub agencies of government roll back network neutrality and kill regulations that protect the environment.
The simple answer to the OP is that I have "genuine concern" about any Democrat winning the general election. This election isn't going to be a cakewalk not matter what happens. The country is too sharply divided. Will repubs come out in force if Clinton is the nominee? Yes. But they will have every reason to come out in force if Bernie is the nominee too and the Koch and Adelson-fueled negative ad campaigns will do everything they can to ensure that happens and to try to scare off portions of the Democratic and Democratic leaning electorate.
So I say leave the petty bickering -- the assertions by one candidate or another that the other is not qualified or is dangerous -- to the repubs. One of the great things about Bernie is that he recognizes what's at stake and has endeavored not to tear down Clinton but rather has relied on the strength of his ideas.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)a pro war, corporate third wayer who is not against citizens United and does not represent any progressive principles. If they force that down our throats by riggin the nom, and that nom loses because people don't want to vote for her, that's on them. You can't force a crappy candidate down the voters throats and then complain when they don't want to vote for her.
it was never a fair fight, and that's the parties fault. If she loses, and she will,they OWN this.
onenote
(42,598 posts)with folks that call them names, who is that on?
I stand with Bernie first. But after I stand with Bernie I stand with the Democratic party. Because there is a difference. And even if we simply stood still for the next four or eight years (and simply by virtue of appointments to the SCOTUS that's not likely to be the case -- we're likely to see further progress), we'd be closer to achieving Bernie's ideas than we will be able to if repubs roll back things like net neutrality and environmental protections and voting rights protections and the repub SCOTUS, made stronger and younger, makes those decisions even harder to overturn going forward.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)if someone cannot in good conscience support a nominee, i am not going to question their decision or tell them who to vote for.
is the party's responsibility to conduct a fair contest. If they fail to do that they own the results.
onenote
(42,598 posts)rights and voting rights from being rolled back.
Anyone who proclaimed themselves happy with the decision in Obergerfell, anyone who expressed disgust with Kim Davis and her ilk, but who then does not do what they can to ensure that decision stands and that the "rights" of the Kim Davis' of the world don't override all other rights, is simply a hypocrite.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)but there are others, like war. i refuse to vote for someone who voted for the iraq war and is hellbent on starting more. dead civilians, dead and maimed soldiers, billions if not trillions spent, destabilization around the world.
don't want that on my conscience.
onenote
(42,598 posts)of the current majority over the certainty of a court that will have a majority of justices that support individual rights, voting rights, restrictions on corporate influence in elections.
You'll trade the certainty that a repub president will get us involved in new military action and international escapades over the possibility (but hardly the same level of certainty) that any Democrat other than Sanders will do the same thing.
You'll take the certainty that the Iran deal will be torn up the first week of a repub president over the preservation of that deal.
Sleep well, my friend. Sleep well.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)if the party wants and expects the votes of progressives, then they should present a fair contest and allow a true progressive to rise, rather than rigging the process for their corporate hawk darling.
the party owns this loss, since she will lose the ge, and it owns the fallout.
i will have no problem sleeping. dws would have trouble if she had a conscience. fortunately for her, she does not.
onenote
(42,598 posts)and the consequences that follow, you can't walk away and say you didn't try to stop those things from happening.
Sorry, you just can't hide your head in sand and say it was all someone else's fault.
I'm backing Bernie all the way to the White House if its possible. But if it isn't possible, I'm going to war against the repubs controlling my life and the lives of the next generation or two.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)onenote
(42,598 posts)It makes no sense. It harms our ability to achieve our goals not just in the short run, but in the long run.
If the repubs capture the WH and solidify their control on the supreme court, voting suppression efforts will continue and increase.
And any hope of a pathway to citizenship for immigrants is pushed back for years.
All of which means the chances of taking advantage of a changing demographic to regain control and achieve real reforms is pushed back, possibly for a generation.
Sorry, no respect for not fighting against that result.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)i have shared my rationale, and any further discussion on this matter is likely to be unfruitful. i hope we find some common ground on other issues in the future.
have a nice evening
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)basically in a general. That is frickin scary....incredibly so....
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Martin Eden
(12,847 posts)Actually, I think "motivating the base to vote" is the KEY to winning the general election.
Hillary Clinton has the negatives you described, but she also has the potential to win some moderates & independents who haven't bought into (mostly) baseless attacks against her. These are voters who see the Republican clown car for what it is and are OK with a centrist Democrat. Some of these same voters will be scared away by Bernie's "Socialist" tag and/or they are on the conservative side for small government.
On the other hand, we have seen Bernie starting to attract some voters who seldom if ever pull the lever for Democrats. They're fed up with status quo establishment politicians and aren't stupid enough to think Trump would make a good POTUS.
I'm not sure if all the above constitutes a wash but there are swing voters who would vote for one and not the other, both ways.
Which brings us to motivating the base to get out and vote (aka GOTV).
Bernie is generating a great deal of enthusiasm among voters (especially the young) who often do not bother going to the polls. I think most Democrats in the Hillary camp will vote for Bernie if he's the nominee, but many who would turn out for Bernie will stay home if HRC is the nominee.
The biggest number from the 2014 midterm election was 63.7 -- the percentage of eligible voters who did NOT bother to cast a vote.
The key to victory is motivating those folks to get out and vote, and for that we need a candidate who generates enthusiasm among the stay-at-home crowd.
oasis
(49,330 posts)That will cancel out the motivated Hillary haters.
Btw, since you so strongly believe Hillary to be unelectable ,why did you feel the need to add the last two paragraphs of this OP where you lay out various scenarios of what will happen if she's elected?
Because it's a talking point who think Hillary will be able to reach across the aisle and garner Republican support. I wish that was the truth but I don't see it happening. Biden? Yes. Sanders? Yes. O'Malley? Yes. Hillary? no.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I do agree that Hillary is not the ideal candidate. If there were another Obama, that would be better. But there isn't one, and Hillary is the best chance we've got.
First of all, I think that your judgement of Hillary's chances is clouded by your personal dislike of her and her policies. This is true of many Bernie supporters on DU. And the predictions they've made based on that dislike have been all wrong. The debate is the latest example. We were told that Bernie would surge after the debate. He didn't. We were told that Bernie won the debate, and that the online polls were correct. They weren't. People said that Hillary came of as corporate and rehearsed, but obviously the Democratic voters disagreed.
More generally, a lot of Bernie supporters were just positive that the Dem primary voters would toss Hillary out once they got to know Bernie and realized he was so much more genuine and not the candidate of corporations/WallSt/whatever. It doesn't look like that's going to happen, at all. So it's safe to say that people who are strongly against Hillary aren't very good judges of how she strikes others who are not so predisposed to dislike her.
As far as the GOP base goes, they learn to hate Democratic nominees very quickly. They hated Obama. They hated Kerry. Yes, they hate Hillary, but they would hate anyone that the Dems nominate. The GOP is very good at getting their base riled up.
I think Hillary can capture more swing voters and indies than any other Dem. You are not a typical independent voter; you are independent because both parties are too far right for you. Most indies are somewhere in the middle. They aren't particularly well informed, and they like to think that "both sides" have it wrong, and by being somewhere in "the middle", they are wiser than everyone else. I don't have a very high opinion of such people, but there are a lot of them out there.
Hillary has a lot going for her here. First, she has a huge amount of experience and qualifications, hands down more than anyone else in either party. She's also associated with Bill, and while Bill has been declared an enemy of the people by a lot of DUers, out there in the real world, Bill is popular and his presidency is looked back on fondly. Then there's the woman thing -- a lot of people, particularly women, think it's past time that we elect a female president (and they are right).
askew
(1,464 posts)Anyone who follows politics and polls closely can see that. She alienates all Republicans and most of the independents. She isn't going to get crossover votes and outside of her small core of supporters, there is no enthusiasm for her - just resignation. Look at her fundraising #s. She is still not able to get small donors invested in her. She is going to have the same problem she had in 2007 except this time her unfavorable & untrustworthy #s are worse than they have ever been. You can't get elected president when only 30-40% of the country consider you trustworthy. No one can get elected president (Bill Clinton got re-elected in a 3-way race with those #s but no comparison).
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)neither bodes well for the 2016 election.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Were she to win the primary, we are going to hear about dark money funneled through the Clinton Foundation 24/7.
She's not electable. She wasn't in 2008 and she isn't in 2016. Keep hoping Hillary Clinton supporters, but the country isn't ready for a years worth of recounting all of the corrupt crap that is going to come flying out.
I love my country, and while our politics infuriate me at times, I trust Bernie Sanders to lead us back to where we need to be.
The arms deal crap is exactly what Rethugs are saving up for.
The River
(2,615 posts)because it will be nothing but anti Clinton propaganda 24/7.
Everything she has done for the past 20+ years will be
examined, questioned and turned into a crisis.
IF she gets elected, the Republicans will put all their time
and effort into impeaching her. If the current Republican obstruction
seems frustrating, you haven't seen anything compared to what
will happen under a Clinton Presidency.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)The media will have field days for a year - it will get beyond ugly and all of the HRC folks will still fail to realize she was the wrong choice.
So let's nip that in the bud and elect the guy that has the best chance at the general - Mr. Sanders.
He'll get his ration of shit from the media to be sure, but his serving will be much smaller.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)have labored for so long under the assumption that she is the only person that can get elected, it's fait accompli to them.
The reality, however, is that she hasn't even won the nomination, and a hell of a lot of people in the Democratic party aren't sold on her, either.
You can't speak to a single person about politics and walk away without the sense that the country is in turmoil and that the electorate is sick of the establishment. Why do you think some Republicans are clinging to Trump when it is obvious he's an idiot? They just want somebody that doesn't embody the elite political class.
This narrative leading up to this has been a Bush-Clinton race according to the media. The problem is that the people are not complying and just as many people on the right despise Bush as people on the left find Clinton to be a dubious candidate, at best.
I wish more people would ask themselves why they don't want to elect another Bush, because it might lead them to asking themselves why they want to elect another Clinton.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I marvel as to why it isn't so obvious to more on this site.
musiclawyer
(2,335 posts)The poling is starting to show it. Her negatives are unprecedented for someone of "destiny"
I get a lovely view working and living among working class republicans.
They hate her. White hot hate. It's remarkable because she's basically an economic old school republican. The hate comes from TV and radio brainwashing.
But that's not all I've learned. My local working class Republicans respect Bernie Sanders. I dont know why. Perhaps it's there is no history of hate directed at him. They just think of him as an old uncle who wants the best for them and is not a grifter. That's my sense. And when /if corporate media goes full socialist mode on Bernie, he will just get a bigger spotlight to talk about things that matter to these people. The deciding votes are not the religious right / social issue 30 %. They will never vote democrat. It's the 30 % low information and independent voters. They will embrace Bernie like a warm blanket. When the corporate media turns on HRC, so will they .... What happened in Canada is foreshadow of what will /is happening on the ground here in the USA.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I think more Republicans would vote for Sanders than would even consider voting for Hillary. Hell, he has impressed some of my family members with his honesty, and they would mostly prefer to jump out of an airplane without a parachute than vote for a Democrat.
It makes no sense, I know.
musiclawyer
(2,335 posts)That's the only thing I can wrap my mind around. Why would republicans say they have no problems with Bernie. I know it's just me, you, and other anecdotal information. But I hear it often. So and so republican friend would vote for Bernie but not Trump and never ever ....never is a long time....never Hillary Clinton ... What....wait .... Why? Because Bernie is white, a man, supposed to be honest as sin, won't take my guns. Ok. Check ......
I have another theory. Bill. They don't want him near the White House ever. He's dirty. Filth. Grifter. Etc.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but I live in the sticks. I'm not about to give up my shotgun. When a New Yorker chastises me about owning a gun, I'll just smile and thank the lord I had one when a wild pig was tearing up the yard after Hurricane Katrina and there was too much debris in the road to walk, and you couldn't call the police either.
People don't need handguns, imho, but some people need long guns. I'm one of them.
Bernie Sander's stance on gun control doesn't bother me one whit. I welcome it, because he understands that not everybody lives in LA, Chicago and NYC.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Ole! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/19/1422802/-FWIW-Bernie-Sanders-Leads-Clinton-65-14-Also-Ties-Trump-and-Carson-in-GOP-Poll My point stands.
See, the fact that Bernie is tied with GOP contenders among Republicans says it all although some don't want to believe that. Show me a poll, any poll, that says Hillary has the same, where she leads or is tied with Trump or Carson among republican voters. Not happening.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I mean OMG Bernie gets Republican & indy votes! Who would have thunk it! Can you show me something where Republicans are organizing for Hillary? I'd love to see it!
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)Like this?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/09/18/bernie_sanders_i_got_25_of_the_republican_vote_in_vermont.html
MADDOW: They heard you respectfully. With Donald Trump so dominant in the Republican field, I wonder if you are starting to think about a plan for trying to appeal to people who think of themselves not as liberals, not even as centrists, but as moderate conservatives that usually think of themselves as Republicans, but they cannot stomach somebody like Mr. Trump as their nominee. Do you have a crossover appeal?
SANDERS: Absolutely. And, Rachel, to the best of my knowledge in the state of Vermont, we got about 25 percent of the Republican vote. Why is that? Because people say, okay, I disagree with Bernie on women's rights. I disagree with Bernie on gay rights. Okay. But you know what? I believe he is fighting for my kids and for my parents and for the rights of the middle class. And you see a lot of those folks saying, I disagree with him, but I'm going to vote for them.
Those facts are really pesky things aren't they? Damn them all!
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)What? Republicans in VT helped vote Sanders in.
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2015/09/17/sanders-tied-for-first-among-vermont-republicans
http://usuncut.com/politics/republican-poll-shows-bernie-tied-for-first-place-with-trump-and-carson-in-this-state/
http://www.wcax.com/story/30064232/poll-bernie-sanders-popular-in-vt-even-among-republicans
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/08/bernie-sanders-dont-be-surprised-if-we-do-well-with-a-number-of-republicans/
That's spin? Really? The fact he has Republicans voting for him in his own state? Fascinating.
Nedsdag
(2,437 posts)the Supreme Court her supporters keep telling people.
To me, her whole presidency will be nothing "practical compromise." This country doesn't need anymore compromising.
Hillary supporters, besides the Supreme Court, give me a reason why I should support her with a gerrymandered Congress.
I'm waiting.
onenote
(42,598 posts)Last edited Thu Oct 22, 2015, 12:11 AM - Edit history (1)
But if Bernie doesn't get the nomination (and I'm working to see that he does get it), then if you want a list of the things besides the supreme court, that will happen if a repub is elected that won't happen if Clinton is elected, here are a few:
Network neutrality -- reversed by a repub majority on the FCC within six months
Executive orders on immigration, minimum wage, guns, etc. revoked within first few weeks
Environmental regulations adopted by EPA -- reversed in first year.
Iran deal -- repudiated in first week.
That's just for starters. And "besides the Supreme Court" is a strange attitude unless, of course, you don't really care that:
The same sex marriage ruling will be overturned sometime in the first four years.
When, as is likely, Justice Ginsburg steps down (she'll be 83 on inauguration day), a repub along the lines of Scalia, Alito, Thomas (but half the age of Scalia) will take her place.
Scalia will step down after three years to ensure that his spot on the court is filled by another right wing extremist, but one half his age.
Thus, any chance of a court with a majority that would stand up against Citizens United or for protection of voting rights will be lost for a decade.\
And with further evisceration of voting rights protections and chances to limit CU type influence, our chance of electing progressives will be made that much harder, notwithstanding demographic trends that favor us. We'll still eventually get to where we want, but it will take a generation longer than would be the case if a Democrat -- any Democrat -- for the next four years.
Nedsdag
(2,437 posts)I plan on voting., but it's kind of sad that voters have to "settle."
I'm tired of settling.
All the things you mentioned are important, but I also don't see much change.
Maybe because I see very few young people enthusiastic outside of Sanders. If he doesn't win, I don't see a lot of young voters making the effort to vote next year.
She has a lot of work to do before she can earn my vote.
smiley
(1,432 posts)Especially after seeing a recent video of her admitting to lying about taking fire in a war zone. If she wins the primary, the media will devote 24 hrs a day to that little clip and I'm sure that's not all they have planned.
The only negative I keep hearing about Bernie is, "he calls himself a socialist, and Americans will never vote for socialist". But they used to say that about black men too, and look where we're at now. That can't be said anymore, so the whole socialist thing doesn't work, at least for me. The safe bet for winning the GE is Bernie Sanders. He's a democratic socialist and a statesmen like no other serving today.
Go Bernie!
sorechasm
(631 posts)In addition to bringing the GOP Hillary haters out in droves, Donald Trump will bring out untold numbers of low-information voters like those who elected Schwarzenegger. (They can't wait to hear him say 'You're Fired' to all federal employees. Won't that boost the country's morale.)
Democrats can only win the general election if we motivate the non-voters and the indy's. Fear of change motivates conservatives, hope for change motivates everyone else.
Hillary drives them away, but Bernie brings them back.