Lying for the Lord Explained

[WestSeattle2]

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

Should American's seriously consider electing a Mormon Bishop who espouses and embraces lying? Voters can easily see how a twisted mind could rationalize lying in virtually any situation that might be embarrassing to the candidate and/or the Mormon church. (Tax returns?)

http://blogs.southcoasttoday.com/new-bedford-politics/2012/03/18/the-bishop-romney-question/

"Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light."

[russspeakeasy]

1. Very good. Thanks.

[WestSeattle2]

3. It's unfathomable to me that a party which so blatantly wraps

itself in the cloak of Christianity, would even consider nominating a ticket headed by a person who embraces lying, and then chooses as his running mate a man who adores a dead Russian athiest.

I find the whole thing disturbing on so many levels.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

9. "wraps itself in the cloak of Christianity"? Wrapping themselves in Christianity or religiosity?

If Mormons believe that Christ and Lucifer are brothers, and that there are three heavens, are they Christians?

[Phlem]

13. I thought there were 7 levels of heaven

in their bullshit doctrine. I've lived around them for too long. I saw a post about a Mormon who was voting democrat and not the cast them with a broad brush. In the 20 years of being surrounded by them (by my wife's family, who's a non practicing mormon) I have yet to meet a democratic leaning Mormon. The religion in practice is a polar opposite to Democratic principles.



-p

[Arugula Latte]

38. As opposed to the mainstream Christian doctrine that makes so much sense?

A zombie born of a virgin raped by a sky god is coming back any day now to save us ... yeah ...

I get your point about them being largely Republican, but their beliefs aren't really any more stupid and ridiculous than any other religious beliefs.

[xtraxritical]

43. The Mormon history in Utah goes way beyond simple lying...

Brigham Young had his disciples disguise themselves as Indians and massacre non-Mormon settlers to steal their property, women and children. This was known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre. There were many more besides this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_massacre

[amuse bouche]

44. Maybe that's Mittfalca's

plan for the non-Mormon Americans. He certainly has no problem lying his ass off

[Brother Buzz]

67. There's no proof they disguised themselves as Indians plus scapegoat John D. Lee took the fall

and only the children were spared. SO STOP SAYING THAT!

[Phlem]

70. " and only the children were spared."

Really,

So that's the high water mark?



-p

[Brother Buzz]

71. the high water mark and their undoing

They thought the children would forget; they didn't.

[Phlem]

59. Agreed!

I'm not a religious person, more of a spiritual one. I think all dated text is suspect for obvious reasons.

-p

[Voice for Peace]

2. does lying for the lord negate

the biblical rule prohibiting false witness against others?

[WestSeattle2]

4. Now that would be an excellent question for Sunday morning

talk show hosts to extend to Bishop Romney.

[russspeakeasy]

5. I would like to watch "Queen Ann" squirm with that one.

[WestSeattle2]

6. "Well I know my husband is a liar, but the country NEEDS his

leadership..."

[russspeakeasy]

7. HE WILL SAVE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

from recovery..............

[Cha]

28. Queen Anngry? eom

[russspeakeasy]

31. Oh yeah !!

[Stuart G]

8. K and R nt. thanks for posting

[otohara]

10. What Else Could Explain Willard's Chronic Lying?

about everything?

[WestSeattle2]

12. Lying in biblical proportions - it just never ends with that guy

and it appears his running mate is as much a stranger to truth as Bishop Romney is.

[GallopingGhost]

11. But God likes Mormons best

so the lying, internal corruption, and oppression is ok.

[Blue Idaho]

14. THIS is a big fucking deal. nt.

[WestSeattle2]

15. I wonder if Bishop Romney will address this issue at

the republican convention? It will be weighing heavily on the minds of the devote. If he doesn't address it, it will be like ignoring an elephant in the living room, so to speak.

It's very easy to understand how religious folk will find this republican ticket repugnant. They really should be up in arms that their party has foisted this immoral travesty upon them. They will certainly be forgiven for simply staying home on November 6th, and letting the chips fall where they may. That would be far more preferable from a moral and ethical viewpoint, than pulling the lever for such a repellent twosome. I mean really - openly embracing lying AND worshiping a dead Russian atheist? It's absolutely appalling.

[Xyzse]

16. That sounds MUCH worse than what I thought it was.

Holy Hell...

[WestSeattle2]

18. It's really about as bad as it gets. I don't recall a worse

presidential ticket in American history; from a moral and ethical viewpoint.

Politics aside, as an American I'm embarrassed that a supposed major party believes that so many of us lack basic morals and ethics, that we would vote for such a ticket.

It's very revealing of republican principles in 2012, and a very, very sad commentary.

The fact that so many supposedly religious republicans will attempt to rationalize their support for this ticket, is even more disturbing.

[rbrnmw]

21. I think that some of them won't vote at all in the end

The fundies I know have said as much to me. They refuse to vote for a Morrmon some will go down to the wire and then not vote Mormons are worse than Satan to some fundies

[elleng]

23. Repugs have deep-sixed their, and our, former morals and ethics,

and we're all struggling with the consequences.

[Cha]

30. It's Classic Good VS EVIL. As if,

McCain and Palin weren't Classic enough..then there was bush and dead eye dick.

[rocktivity]

57. From McSame/Failin'

to BullMitt/Lyin' Ryan!


rocktivity

[libodem]

17. What would any religion

Be without hucksters and suckers.

We are valued for our consumption of material crap and verbal bullshit, lies.

The best one can do is continue to question authority and seek our own truth.

[byeya]

19. LDS is a cult, worse than Scientology, imo. I lived in rural SW Utah for 2 years and

couldn't believe the crapola they'd tell you to bully you into joining.

Good timely post!

[WestSeattle2]

22. I believe every religion has beliefs that non-believers will find

odd, or even disturbing. But openly embracing lying and deceit - without shame or guilt, is a deep, deep character flaw that has no place in our White House.

If someone believes that lying and deceit have no consequences, other than embarrassment when caught, that person is DANGEROUS. To hand the reigns of political power to a person so deeply flawed, would be a mistake of unimaginable magnitude.

My God, I wouldn't hire a known liar as my receptionist; yet the republican party is asking American's to vote for one as president?

That's a profound insult to each and every one of us.

[byeya]

26. I agree with what you posted and the way you wrote it. Good one!

[amuse bouche]

46. In my opinion all religons are cults.

It's just that some are more nefarious and creepier than others

And I would love to hear about the crapola

[elleng]

20. Like 'little white lies'

to preserve the image of the parents, NOT IN MY HOUSE, or COUNTRY!

[WestSeattle2]

24. Can you imagine parents trying to explain to

kids why it's okay for the president to lie through his teeth when it's convenient, but not okay for the rest of us?

"Well, honey, it's because President Romney is a Bishop in a religious organization that feels lying is okay. We don't belong to that religion, and we believe that lying is dishonorable and brings us shame. That's why the president can lie at will, while we must always tell the truth."

The kids will think the world is insane. And rightfully so.

Vote Democratic - save yourself the embarrassment of having this conversation with your child.

[Cha]

32. Good Point, WestSeattle! Talk about an ugly role model.

The "media" that isn't callng mitt out on his chronic lying needs to be indicted as well.

[riverbendviewgal]

25. It is permitted to lie in the Mormon faith Romney will not serve American people..

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/07/exclusive-brigham-young-s-great-great-granddaughter-on-mormonism-and-mitt-romney.html

Emmett says Romney was a bishop, “a position where everyone defers to you. What a bishop says goes. People come to them to receive blessings.” He then became a stake president, she says, which means he presided over several congregations, and at that point bishops deferred to him.

“Mitt has had people defer to him and not challenge him his entire life,” says Emmett. “In the Mormon church if you challenge your priesthood leaders it’s a very bad thing to do, especially for women. As the world can now see, Mitt has a very hard time with being questioned and criticized; he’s had so little of this in his life."

“Every Mormon grows up with the idea that it’s OK to lie if it’s for a higher cause,” says Clark, who now works for a company that markets employment and labor market data. “But what happens is when this becomes a part of your ethical tool kit, you develop a condescending attitude toward people. Like Ann Romney saying 'you people.’ This idea of lying for the Lord gives you license to place people on an inferior level. It’s OK for Mitt Romney to ignore the principle of full disclosure because it’s in his DNA. Look what he’s doing with his taxes, and how he talks only in generic and sanitized terms about his religion.”

[Cha]

34. "Lying for a higher cause"...and just because

they say it's a higher cause DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. willard and anngry's higher cause is getting in the white house so they can LIE THEIR FREAKING HEADS OFF ON A DAILY BASIS.

[Arugula Latte]

35. Well, all religion is based on a giant pack of lies, so it's not just limited to that church.

[xtraxritical]

49. You are mistaken, it's an insane cult.

[Arugula Latte]

60. Well, so are a lot of religions that seem more familiar, such as the Catholic Church.

[Bluenorthwest]

64. 'Mommy, Pope Ratsy does it too' is not really a defense. This thread is about a specific

teaching of a specific faith. Why is that a problem? We can do the Catholic Church next if you wish, but this thread is about LDS's teaching about lying.

[Arugula Latte]

65. Well, far be it from me to defend any church or religion!

I can't stand any of them, and, yes, that the Mormon Church does this is despicable, but not at all surprising.

[WestSeattle2]

36. This is profoundly unsettling. To ignore such red flags involving

man's character, a man running to be president of the United States, is to invite untold
catastrophe.

How can any foreign leader believe a word this man utters? How can any American believe a word he says?

You may not always agree with our president's positions, but for God's sake you can believe what he says. He IS man of integrity.

The same cannot be said for the presumptive republican nominee.

[nolabear]

27. I suggest everyone read Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven". LDS extremists but also history.

I'm not quite through it but it's made my hair stand on end. I know most religions are founded in blood and entitlement, but...damn.

[xtraxritical]

50. You can check out the bloody atrocities of Mormon history here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_massacre

[SarahM32]

29. It's not just Mormons. For example, David Barton is an adept liar "in the name of the Lord."

For those who may not be familiar with Barton, he's a right-wing Texas evangelical preacher who fancies himself a "historian" and claims to know the Constitution and the real intent of the Founding Fathers regarding religion.

Mainly through half-truths, and also through outright, blatant lies, Barton leads people to believe what Pat Robertson and other leaders of the "Religious Right" have been trying to convince people of for the last 30 years.

But, while Falwell is dead and Robertson is fading, Barton takes up the "Christian" sword and banner, and with zealotry unsurpassed Barton sells his message to gullible Americans. He even gives tours of the Capitol building for busloads of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians from all over the country. And most of them are quick to believe Barton's revisionist history.

That's why articles like Quotes From the Founding Fathers Regarding Religion are so extremely important now, because it's time to realize their true intent, and the real wisdom of Thomas Jefferson.

[bluemarkers]

33. not really lying ...

They also have a provision that the Bible is correct, as long as it is interpreted correctly....

guess who does the interpreting?

Convenient little circle

[GEOpix]

37. This is not only in Mormonism

The Islamic religions have a similar belief called "Taqiyya" where you are allowed to lie to non believers and enemies. This is probably the derivation of the Mormon practice. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm

[greatauntoftriplets]

40. Or vice versa since Islam is a much older faith than Mormonism.

[meow2u3]

39. Lying FOR the Lord is lying TO the Lord IMO

Mormon fundies aren't the only ones who use God's name to justify lying to protect the reputation of their institution.

Many Protestant and Catholic fundamentalists commit what amounts to blasphemy by using God to cover up crimes against children, justify women's subservience to men--even abusive, murderous men, and explain away racism, greed, and contempt for the poor and/or vulnerable. What Mormons call "lying for the Lord", Opus Dei and other retro Catholic call (of all oxymorons) "holy deception" (Yo, Scalia, deception is unholy, and so are you) and the Legion of Christ is in a diabolical class by itself.

[WestSeattle2]

41. With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, they're not

running for president. I believe there is a profound difference between a fundamentalist grocery bagger at the neighborhood Albertsons, who may believe lying is ok, and a Morman Bishop running for president of the United States, who believes lying and deceit is perfectly okay.

International treaties are often finalized between the heads of two or more nations. Who in their right mind would believe Willard Romney? Who would risk the safety of their nation to something Willard may say or commit to?

I sure the heck wouldn't. I'd wait four years until American's came to their senses and elected as president, someone the international community can have faith in.

This is a serious issue for Romney; the lack of respect for the truth has profound consequences for us all.

[tanyev]

42. Maybe that's why Mitt gets in such high dudgeon when someone dares question things he's said.

[WestSeattle2]

45. Indeed. With respect to Sir William Shakespeare...

"The Bishop from Salt Lake doth protest too much"

[silvershadow]

47. Sooo...Does this mean basically whenever it's convenient? If he's doing it to

shield money in any way, or multiple ways, it runs less as a church and more as a criminal organization. That's the long and short of it, if you really connect all the dots. That said, I am quite certain the Mormons aren't the only ones. This particular practice just adds an element to it that is fascinating, if not ridiculous.

[WestSeattle2]

48. Yes, whenever it's convenient - much like juveniles do until they learn

right from wrong and grow up to be honest, respectable, honorable men and women.

Those who choose a different, less honest and honorable path, apparently qualify to be republican presidential nominees.

[silvershadow]

51. He's the absolute epitome of everything wrong.

Lying certainly makes it easier I guess, if you can get away with it. Look how much we are speculating he has done. He is absolutely unfit. The POTUS is technically supposed to be someone who would conduct themselves in a manner as to be unimpeachable. I doubt Romney could be confirmed for anything at this point.

[WestSeattle2]

52. The more American's understand this fellow, the most disconcerting

it becomes that he was able to buy himself the republican nomination. But it does underscore the fact that the republican party is for sale to the highest bidder, even if that bidder has incredibly deep and obvious character flaws.

[silvershadow]

54. Yes, this is what Citizen's United has wrought, for sure. Unfortunately for our country

it is a new low. I just hope and pray Americans are smarter than Lord Romney, and that the election isn't somehow sabotaged in some other way. (After Bush, everything is suspect for me, unfortunately.) It's a shame too, that we have wasted two long, precious years instead of moving our country forward. That this is the best they could produce after all that is almost beyond comprehension really. Kind of breathtaking in it's brazenness.

[FreeState]

53. I was raised LDS

and this was never taught in Church, ever, not once did I hear it. Doesn't mean it isn't something that could be applied or followed by some or even the leaders. But, its not a belief that is taught in church. (Romeny never was a leader beyond the local piss ant level).

I think its very common for religious groups to do this as well - seems a lot of them do.

[CJCRANE]

62. I think you're right.

People have said this about Jews and Muslims amongst others. I'm sure you can find verses advocating this kind of thing in most religions if you look hard enough into their holy books and sayings. I personally don't agree with broadbrushing all adherents of a religion with these kinds of allegations.

Having said that, it's clear that Romney has a difficult time telling the truth or sticking to the same story. This may be caused by his interpretation of his religion, or may be a character flaw caused by something else, it's hard to say.

[rocktivity]

55. DING DING DING! WestSeattle2, you're our grand prize winner!

Last edited Tue Sep 8, 2015, 12:30 PM - Edit history (18)

"...For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light."

So that's it.

Something has been bothering me about Romney that I've been unable to articulate. I thought it might have something to do with his Mormonism, but didn't know enough about Mormonism to figure it out. Well, I didn't realize how I right (or perhaps I should say right wing) I was.

Mitt has brought back so many memories of George II's arrested development: his absence of conscience; the lack of self-control and empathy; the paranoia; the "living in the moment" manipulativeness; and of course, the knee-jerk lying. But what's disturbed me most about Romney is that he seems to be operating on a entirely different level -- and it turns out to be a heavenly one.

For the record, I define any religion that involves the worship or studying of Jesus Christ to be a form of Christianity. And for the record, I've always defined Rethugs who insist that God blesses their brand of politics as being particularly reprehensible. But again, Romney is bringing something "above and beyond" to the game, and thanks to you, WestSeattle2, I finally understand what it is:

The Romneys are masters of lying without sinning.

It's why Mitt doesn't even attempt to be embarrassed when he's caught in a lie. It's why Ann has said, “It’s Mitt’s time. It’s our turn now.” With or without the endorsement of their Mormon elders, the Romneys are not operating on the basis of right or wrong, good or bad, true or false: there is only what will get them into the White House versus what will not. Since ANYTHING they say or do is pre-emptively absolved, they don't trouble themselves with guilt or accountability because their God doesn't require it -- and their God has decided that Mitt should be President...


rocktivity

[WestSeattle2]

58. Exactly. And that is what makes individuals such as

Bishop Romney and his wife so dangerous; not only to the United States, but to the world community. I wouldn't trust Romney to be my receptionist, let alone president of the United States.

[1StrongBlackMan]

56. Posted to for later reading. n/t

[Angry Dragon]

61. the word cult comes to mind

[Schema Thing]

63. Jehovah's Witnesses have their own term for this very thing in their religion: Theocratic Warfare

Which means basically, "sure, it's gravely wrong to lie (to your parents or to a Jehovah's Witness elder about whether you and your girlfriend made out last Friday), but if a "worldly" person doesn't deserve to know the whole truth about something pertaining to the religion, go ahead and lie to protect Jehovah's organization.".

[TrogL]

66. My wife is ex-Mormon and she's never heard of it

...at least at the Stake level.

[HeiressofBickworth]

68. I hate to break it to you average Mormons

but your church includes YOU in the "lying for the lord" thing.

"Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators."
"Many have argued, often under the guise of 'milk before meat,' that we must not disillusion the new or weak with all-too-human history or the questioning of the Lord’s anointed–questioning being by definition under this theory, criticism, even heresy. Better the lie."
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord#Milk_before_meat_,_and_then_some_dessert

So, the fact that you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means you haven't reached the level of the church when it is divulged to you -- just practiced ON YOU.

[JoePhilly]

69. I'm going to bet there are plenty of right wing Christians who will also lie for the lord.

They won't personally kill an abortion doctor, but they would lie, cheat, or steal votes to defeat a pro-choice candidate.

[WestSeattle2]

72. They are no more qualified to be president than Bishop Romney. I was raised

Lutheran; we didn't lie about our beliefs or practices. Any religion that assures members it's okay to lie, really shouldn't be the pool that we select presidential nominees from, in my opinion.

It's a very sad commentary that in a country of 310,000,000 souls, that this guy is the one that republican's allowed to buy the nomination.