Strategy: Remind primary voters about Hillary's support for increasing H-1B visas

[brentspeak]

Hillary's support of the H-1B visa program and outsourcing in general has a long and deep history. She has been a major recipient of Indian outsourcing firms, and as recently as last year reaffirmed her support of actually increasing the number of available H-1B visas.

Bernie Sanders, on the other hand, does not support outsourcing American jobs.

And now, at least for US tech workers, Hillary's support of outsourcing is coming home to roost: this news piece features interviews with newly laid-off American Disney IT workers (replaced by cheaper Indians) who, quite logically, advise young Americans to not go into the profession.

Hillary can now be said not only to have used her position as an elected official to undermine Americans' livelihoods, but to also have contributed to the technological "dumbing down" of the populace, as Americans have absolutely no incentive to pursue a STEM field.

[whathehell]

1. Oh yes..

I believe she's been called "The Senator from Punjab".

[Ino]

49. She was introduced that way by Rajwant Singh at an HRC fundraiser...

...and she essentially agreed.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-06-19/news/0706180756_1_punjab-clinton-campaign-hillary-clinton

"At the fundraiser hosted by Dr. Rajwant Singh at his Potomac, Md., home, and which raised nearly $50,000 for her re-election campaign, Clinton began by joking that, 'I can certainly run for the Senate seat in Punjab and win easily,' after being introduced by Singh as the senator not only from New York but also Punjab," a state in India.

[whathehell]

83. Wonderful, isn't it?

Another reason we need Bernie -- Putting Americans jobs first.

[JaneyVee]

2. THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!!!

Ugh. This is getting bizarre.

[brentspeak]

3. Hey, look -- an H-1B cheerleader!

You've got a winning message for your candidate. The American people are sure to love it.

[JaneyVee]

5. Having foreigners pump money into our economy must give Bernie the sadz.

[brentspeak]

11. Here, I fixed it for you:

Having foreigners pump money into our economy Hillary's campaign coffers and the investment accounts of some 1%-ers must give hard-working American citizens everywhere the sadz.

[JaneyVee]

14. Yeah, because theses workers go years without spending any money.

They live in boxes without electricity, eat from dumpsters, and run miles to work.

[mhatrw]

28. Seriously, this is your argument?

Last edited Wed Oct 28, 2015, 09:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Slashing tech wages is great because then the foreigners who replace American citizens will spend a portion of their much lower wages in America?

That's your argument? Seriously?

[JaneyVee]

35. Slashing what wages?

Here's H1b wages: http://h1bwage.com/

[mhatrw]

38. So now your argument is that H1b wages are just as high as those paid to US workers?

And who cares if it is a foreigner recycling the same dollars into the US economy or a US citizen?

Why are US companies firing the same US workers who are so great that they are bribed to train their H1B replacements and replacing them with H1B foreigners if not to drive down wages?

[ljm2002]

87. And what of the US workers they displaced?

They would have been spending that same money.

Instead it is the displaced US workers at risk of living in boxes without electricity and eating from dumpsters.

I do not see this as a net good.

[840high]

81. That's much better. Thank you.

[artislife]

39. Less money than if it had been an American with the

paycheck they would have made....

Microsoft hires a lot of people from India who are cheaper...

But I am eating a most excellent tikka marsala at the moment because of it..

[wyldwolf]

53. Sure. Immigration is fine as long as they don't take technology jobs

[cprise]

69. The *jobs* often move offshore when the workers leave

I have personally experienced this, having trained H1-B workers who then took our jobs to India.

You have to confuse immigration with temporary visas to protect Clinton's position. That doesn't work.

[wyldwolf]

70. Jobs are moving offshore anyway, are they not?

[cprise]

72. Privatization "happens anyway", does it not?

[wyldwolf]

74. Food in restaurants is often served cold, is it not?

[cprise]

76. They can eat cake if they don't like it.

[wyldwolf]

79. Or simply choose another restaurant

[cprise]

80. ...

[Armstead]

4. They did take our jobs

You made any calls to any companies lately? Remember in the 1990's "call centers" were going to be a major source of jobs to rebuild communities devastated by the loss of manufacturing?

These days when you call a service provider, it sure doesn't sound like your call is going to Omaha.

[JaneyVee]

6. I haven't got a human on the phone since 1997.

So I think technology and automation won that job.

[brentspeak]

13. "I haven't got a human on the phone since 1997."

So, according your DU biography -- "Born & raised in Williamsburg Brooklyn 1981" -- you were, uh, 15 or 16 years old when this started happening, when you had some need to be speaking on a regular basis with customer service personnel, correct?

[artislife]

41. You should never ask a lady to give her age.....

heh

[RandySF]

54. The call centers were shipped out

That has nothing to do with the H1-B.

[PoliticAverse]

8. Yes it is 'bizarre' that Clinton could support something like this...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0

[JaneyVee]

9. Yes, the last thing America needs is highly skilled technical workers.

No job is a lifetime gig. But Clinton's have a record of creating 20s of millions jobs.

[PoliticAverse]

15. Hey "no job is a lifetime gig", you just need to work for less to compete

with the H1-B people we are bringing in. A fine motto for a Republican maybe.

[brentspeak]

20. In fact, a variation of Carly Fiorina's

"There Is No Job That Is America's God-Given Right Anymore."

[JaneyVee]

21. They don't work for less. There are strict requirements.

Stop repeating rightwing lies. The median H-1B employee earns $74,250 a year-90 percent more than the median private sector salary of $39,100. The average H-1B salary of $78,600 is 50 percent above that of the average U.S. worker's of $50,300.

Here is a link to current H1b job offers and salaries: http://h1bwage.com/

[PoliticAverse]

23. That's misdirection. The point is they work for less than the employees they are replacing.

Do you think a company would replace their salaried US workers with imported foreign workers
if they had to pay the foreign workers more?

More background from the "rightwing" Mother Jones...
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers

[JaneyVee]

33. It actually costs them more to hire H1b's.

Standard H1B filing fee: $325 per person

ACWIA (Training) H1B Fee: an employer must pay $1,500 towards a program dedicated to train American workers.[1]

H1B fraud fee: employer is required to pay $500 fraud prevention fee per application.

Premium processing fee: a normal H1B application process takes about 2-6 months. The premium processing can shorten the process to 15 business days if the employer is willing to pay an additional $1,225.

Legal fee: Employers usually hire immigration lawyers to handle the entire process. Depends on how long the process will take eventually, the cost of lawyers is usually several thousand dollars.[2]

So the total cost of hiring a foreign worker on H1B visa could be as much as $10,000. As mentioned earlier, employers are also required to pay H1B visa holders prevailing wages. Therefore, it is not exactly a bargain for employers.

[jeff47]

61. And how much do they save when they deflate the job title of that H1B worker?

H1B worker is given the title of "junior engineer", giving a market rate of $70,000/year.

H1B worker is actually doing the work of a "senior engineer", at a market rate of $125,000/year.

Savings over the 6 year life of the H1B visa: $330,000.

Golly, I wonder why they are willing to spend $10,000.....

[arcane1]

77. There's also the matter of health insurance, fire-at-will, and unemployment insurance.

But you're arguing with someone who is playing their role: to dispute the facts by whatever means necessary. You won't get through to them because they already know you're right. Their role is to pretend otherwise.

[artislife]

42. Are you comparing job to job?

There is a lot of bitterness here about jobs being filled for less in this Tech Town.

[jeff47]

60. And here's how they avoid those requirements

The company hires an H1B worker as a "junior engineer". And pays the market rate for a junior engineer.

But a miracle occurred! The actual worker has much more experience than a typical junior engineer! This is totally unexpected!! And the H1B employee is assigned tasks typically given to senior engineers.

What's really going on is they hired a senior engineer, knew they were hiring a senior engineer, and deflated the job title in order to reduce market rate.

The average H-1B salary of $78,600 is 50 percent above that of the average U.S. worker's of $50,300.

Then perhaps we should not be giving these higher-paying jobs to people who have to leave the country in 6 years. Instead, we could boost that US worker's average.

[mhatrw]

29. Yep! If Americans won't work for pennies & no bennies, we'll just bring in some people who will!

How in the hell can you support this?

[JaneyVee]

34. Another deluded person using racial language filled with lies.

You obv don't know how H1b's work.

[mhatrw]

40. I know just how they work. They work to outsource jobs to Tata.

They make Tata rich and keep tech workers' wages low so the C-level executives can keep getting paid more and more and top 0.1% investors and owners can exploit those who actually produce the technology as much as possible.

[artislife]

44. I live in the Seattle area

You are much closer to the truth of what I have heard from neighbors than the other poster.

I just think it is so typical that there would be this support so rabidily stated on such a topic. I think there is a section that would nod in agreement on anything.

[840high]

82. Do you ever open your

eyes to reality.

[MH1]

88. America HAS highly skilled technical workers

And oh by the way quite a few of those H1B workers LIE THEIR ASSES OFF on a resume. And a "masters degree" from some school in India is maybe - MAYBE - equivalent to a BS from a very crappy US school. With a lack of core competencies.

Highly skilled my fucking ass.

(Yes I work in technology. There are a variety of reasons H1Bs are hired. Having skills that Americans don't have, isn't one of 'em. Being better than Americans is not one of them. No matter what lies the corporation tells you.)

[think]

24. "How H-1B Visas Are Screwing Tech Workers"

How H-1B Visas Are Screwing Tech Workers

By Josh Harkinson | Fri Feb. 22, 2013 7:01 AM EST

A few years ago, the pharmaceutical giant Pfizer informed hundreds of tech workers at its Connecticut R&D facilities that they'd soon be laid off. Before getting their final paychecks, however, they'd need to train their replacements: guest workers from India who'd come to the United States on H-1B visas. "It's a very, very stressful work environment," one soon-to-be-axed worker told Connecticut's The Day newspaper. "I haven't been able to sleep in weeks."

Established in 1990, the federal H-1B visa program allows employers to import up to 65,000 foreign workers each year to fill jobs that require "highly specialized knowledge." The Senate's bipartisan Immigration Innovation Act of 2013, or "I-Squared Act," would increase that cap to as many as 300,000 foreign workers. "The smartest, hardest-working, most talented people on this planet, we should want them to come here," Sen. Marco Rubio, (R-Fla.) said upon introducing the bill last month. "I, for one, have no fear that this country is going to be overrun by Ph.D.s."

~Snip~

But in reality, most of today's H-1B workers don't stick around to become the next Albert Einstein or Sergey Brin. ComputerWorld revealed last week that the top 10 users of H-1B visas last year were all offshore outsourcing firms such as Tata and Infosys. Together these firms hired nearly half of all H-1B workers, and less than 3 percent of them applied to become permanent residents. "The H-1B worker learns the job and then rotates back to the home country and takes the work with him," explains Ron Hira, an immigration expert who teaches at the Rochester Institute of Technology. None other than India's former commerce secretary once dubbed the H-1B the "outsourcing visa."

~Snip~

Read more:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers

If you liked that one you'll love this one. It's a real "hoot":

Workers paid $1.21 an hour to install Fremont tech company's computers

By George Avalos - 10/22/2014 11:34:49 AM

FREMONT -- Electronics for Imaging paid several employees from India as little as $1.21 an hour to help install computer systems at the company's Fremont headquarters, federal labor officials said Wednesday.

"We are not going to tolerate this kind of behavior from employers," said Susana Blanco, district director of the U.S. Labor Department's wage and hour division in San Francisco.

The incident is a reminder that even amid a labor market that has boomed in recent years in Silicon Valley and other parts of the Bay Area, income inequality and payments of relatively low wages can still be a problem for workers in the region. The workers were paid in Indian rupees.

"It's always amazing that some employers think they can go about with this kind of cheating," said Sylvia Allegretto, a UC Berkeley research economist and co-chair of the university's Center on Wage and Employment Dynamics....

Read more:
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_26778017/tech-company-paid-employees-from-india-little-1

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers

[virtualobserver]

26. If you had actually worked in an industry flooded with H1b technical workers

you would not respond in such a flippant way.

[Android3.14]

31. Do you support giving non-citizens jobs over American citizens?

I'm going to guess the courage, integrity and honesty necessary for an HRC supporter to discuss that question is lacking.

[JaneyVee]

32. Do you understand how H1b works?

Apparently not.

[Android3.14]

36. Such an easy question to answer

You could have said "no" followed with an explanation of how increasing H1B visas magically brings more jobs to US citizens. Of course, such an explanation would been as fake as the candidate in question.

We are done here.

[jeff47]

62. Works in reality, or works in propaganda?

You seem to only be familiar with the latter.

[BainsBane]

7. He was for them before he was against them

Like when he voted for them in this bill:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?&congress=113&session=1&vote=00168

http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1bvisaincrease2013/ref/1771/

Somehow I'm guessing you'll omit the disparity between rhetoric and voting record. When another candidate does it, you all call it flip flopping, or something to do with weather vanes.

Visas, whether H-IB or any other kind, are not outsourcing. They involve bringing workers to the US, not shipping jobs out of the US.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Out -------->



. . . . . . . . . . . . In <---------------

[jeff47]

22. Except H1B visas are temporary.

One could argue one of the "permanent resident" visas would be good for the US, because that would mean the person moves to the US, bringing their skills with them.

That's not what an H1B visa is. They only last 3 to 6 years. Someone on an H1B visa is also chained to one employer - if they quit or get fired, they must leave the country.

There's also the massive H1B visa fraud. In theory, they're only supposed to be given out when an employer can't find someone in the US to do the job. In practice, they're given out to any employer that asks. Because as my email inbox shows, it's very easy to show you can't find someone in the US to take the job. (Why no Mr. Recruiter, I'm not interested in a massive pay cut to move to a city I never said I wanted to live in to take a 5-years-experience job with my 20 years experience. Ta-da! Can't find anyone!)

The goal of H1B visas is to depress wages. They've been extremely effective.

[BainsBane]

48. Sanders still voted for them

and still they aren't outsourcing.

[jeff47]

50. And?

There was a time when they served a useful purpose. We really did have a massive shortage of IT workers during the dot-com boom. The problem is we've kept the H1Bs going, and massively expanded the number of them, despite no longer having that massive shortage.

Also, H1Bs are used in outsourcing. The company outsources the IT staff to a different company, who fills the jobs with H1B workers because they're cheaper and can be massively abused by the employer.

[RandySF]

57. And here comes the Escape Harch excuse

Always handy when Bernie is involved.

[jeff47]

59. What the hell are you babbling about? (nt)

[RandySF]

56. Depress wages?

Do you live near Silicon Valley?

[jeff47]

58. Nope. Still depresses wages.

There's three ways H1Bs depress wages.

1) Since they're temporary, the H1B workers have to expect to return home after about 6 years. Which means they're willing to accept something that is a "huge" salary in their home country, but a low salary in the US.

2) The H1B employees can't quit and can't change employers. Quitting means they get deported, and why would an employer sign up for the last few years of an existing H1B instead of getting a new H1B?

As a result, the employer doesn't have to pay that well. Theoretically, they have to pay "market rate", but that's avoided by....

3) Inflation of job responsibilities. The employer claims they are hiring a junior engineer, and pays market rate for a junior engineer. But "they got lucky" and hired an H1B worker with far more experience. And assign senior engineer tasks to someone they are paying at a junior engineer rate.

[passiveporcupine]

37. He's still for them, while being against misuse of them

Sanders has said that he does accept, with limitations, the high-tech industry's argument "that they need the H-1B program so they can hire the best and the brightest science, technology, engineering and math workers in the world, and that there are not enough qualified American workers in these fields. In some cases -- let me be very honest -- I think that is true."

There are some companies "in some parts of the country that are unable to attract American workers to do the jobs that are needed," said Sanders. But he has also cited a Government Accountability Office report that states that just over half of the H-1B workers are employed in entry-level jobs. And he has cited other studies that suggest that H-1B workers are paid less than U.S. citizens in similar positions.

from OP's link

[arcane1]

78. Some people just can't do nuance, or shades of grey. It's all or nothing.

Don't expect a reasoned reply from that crowd

[liberal_at_heart]

10. It doesn't make much sense to me that they are pushing STEM education so hard only to

outsource the jobs.

[Scuba]

12. Another disqualifier, in a long list of disqualifiers, for candidate Hillary.

[AzDar]

16. K & R

[appalachiablue]

17. This important H-1B visa program must be brought up and evaluated in depth.

Many corporations and banks are continuing to outsource 'back office' operations overseas in order to cut costs to cheaper labor countries like India and the Philippines were there's an English speaking population if needed.

Many H1-B workers here are being exploited over pay, hours, living conditions and vague job promises. Some people, and I know quite a few from Ceylon, Pakistan and India are living for years in uncertainty. In some industries and places they have the non status of a permanent underclass.

The impact of H1-B visas, outsourcing, AI and automation on the US labor force must be addressed along with the direction of college and vocational training and more.

[Godhumor]

18. Glad to get a preview of the kind of OPs to expect from you between 2016 and 2024

Something to look forward to.

[frylock]

43. Issues are hard.

Here's a video of Katy Perry.

[upaloopa]

19. I read your links. Some are not about Hillary

and all show how you have taken their meaning out of context.
In the article about Hillary's trip to India she is quoted as saying outsourcing is a problem in America. She has always come down on the side of working class Americans when it comes to trade. She did not flip flop on TPP. She said a trade agreement has to be fair to working class Americans. She had that standard before she understood TPP and when she realized it did not meet her standard she opposed it.
The problem here is you have to make up shit to attack her because the truth does not fit your narrative.

[UglyGreed]

25. K/R N/T

[kelliekat44]

27. Yes, blame the workers for wanting jobs and a better life. Do not blame the companies that hire

them.

China is bad for buying our assets but the folks who sell them to China..well they are good ole' Murikan capitalists just trying to survive.

[brentspeak]

30. And, of course, don't blame Hillary Clinton for taking outsourcing companies' $$$

Your attempt at deflection is a failure. I hope you didn't get your lessons in logic from reading Newsmax.

[frylock]

46. Who cares about American workers wanting jobs and a better life?

amirite?

[jwirr]

71. Are you saying we do not blame the corporations? Where

have you been? That is one of the biggest reasons we do not want to elect another corporatist to the WH.

[Thinkingabout]

45. How many workers do you know has been replaced by H-1B visas?

[jeff47]

63. 300,000 per year.

Do I have to know all of them to be aware of what the limit is?

[Thinkingabout]

64. You know of 300,000 per year who have been misplaced by a non citizen with a masters or better

degree? Interesting, do you have a link?

[jeff47]

65. That's the cap on H1B visas per year. It is hit every year.

As for "misplaced (sic) by a non-citizen", who do you think would get the job if H1Bs were not available?

[Thinkingabout]

66. Again, in post #45, how many workers do you personally know who has been replaced by H1B visas?

[jeff47]

67. Why do I have to personally know them?

And again, who would get these jobs if H1B visas were not available?

[Thinkingabout]

68. Do you know the requirements for a H1B visa?

[jeff47]

75. Yes. Do you know the ways those requirements are routinely exploited?

And again, who would get those jobs if H1B visas did not exist?

[Thinkingabout]

84. Exploited by those who tries to say something is happening and it is not, yes I see that here.

[jeff47]

85. So my email inbox is lying to me?

I routinely get emails asking if I'm interested in jobs. About 2-3 a week until we hit the annual H1B cap. Then the emails stop.

They are from recruiters I have never contacted. They are in cities I have never expressed interest in living in. They are for far below my level of experience, and thus would be a massive pay cut. Not surprisingly, I do not take them up on their offer.

And since various H1B filings are public, I can see they later filled the position with an H1B worker.

This makes it extremely obvious that that email was used as evidence that they could not find a US worker. And according to you, this doesn't happen because reasons.

Also, I've worked with H1B workers and directly experienced title deflation, used to reduce the market rate for an H1B employee. Again, according to you this doesn't happen because reasons.

Once again, who would be getting these jobs if H1Bs did not exist?

[MH1]

89. I know 2 personally, and several positions that were not offered to Americans. nt.

[WillyT]

47. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[RandySF]

51. Great idea

Play the anti-immigrant card. How many voters have parents who first came to America on H-1B's?

[azmom]

52. K&R

[loyalsister]

73. There are 3 sentiments implicitly targeted in that strategy

Humanitarian, xenophobic, and racism. It's ultimately 2\3 dog wistle politics, and I hope it will not take hold.

[ornotna]

86. k&r n/t