I'm with Howard Dean: Bernie is not a Democrat

[Sheepshank]

Last edited Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

I was trying very hard to give Bernie the benefit of the doubt for finally announcing that he was now running as a Democrat, and how that may have meant that he had joined to party and was now a Democrat. I'd even written a couple of posts stating such.

I was trying to be understanding of a man who doesn't like to evolve, but now walks back his earlier statements, "I am not a Democrat", " ...it would be hypocritical of me to run as a Democrat" and "I am an Independent".

But Howard Dean hedged.

For all of his Bernie support, in a pre-forum interview, Chris Matthew clearly used Bernie's own words "I am running as a Democrat" to plant a seed of doubt. And that is the bottom line, Bernie is running as a Democrat, he never joined the party to be a Democrat. Chris Matthews pressed DWS over and over until she finally and hesitatingly relented and said that Bernie is a Democrat, but Howard refused to capitulate.

Words have meaning and Bernie does just like every single politician and says exactly what he means. Not once has he said he joined the Democratic Party, not once did he say he is now a Democrat....he has said he is like a Democrat and does some things like other Democrats

I'm with Howard Dean. Bernie may be running as a Democrat. This is old news, we knew he was attempting to run on the Democratic ticket, but Bernie is still refusing to actually be a Democrat and join the party. Bernie has and will continue to act in ways that actually undermines the Democratic Party.

[RobertEarl]

1. It berns you bad, eh?

He is running as a Democrat in the Democratic party and he's gonna win the nomination and make Hillary retire.

Go Bernie!

[darkangel218]

93. +1 million !!!

[Sheepshank]

96. Some are doomed to be followers

...of the wrong people.

[ibegurpard]

2. your opinion on this is irrelevant

[tabasco]

5. No one's opinion is irrelevant.

Your statement reflects upon you poorly.

[ibegurpard]

20. an opinion is not relevant

When facts say otherwise

[jkbRN]

34. It is how a person interprets the facts,

that can make the statement reflect poorly upon them.

[Hortensis]

41. LOL, ibe. Facts say opinions can move worlds, facts be damned.

[Dawgs]

3. So you vote for labels over policy, compassion, and honesty. We get it. n/t

[Avalux]

4. Please explain HOW Bernie has undermined the Democratic Party while in office. Thanks. n/t

[Scuba]

6. Funny, I just got an email from the DNC hyping "our candidates" including Bernie, Martin and Hillary

[Sheepshank]

22. Yes, he is a candidate on the Democratic Ticket...I've not said otherwise.

[Scuba]

30. Try this then ...

[Sheepshank]

33. No discussion,just snark...typical and expected. Nt

[Scuba]

37. You're the one splitting hairs.

[Sheepshank]

54. I'm being very particular over the words Bernie is using

You may call it splitting hairs, but he is being very deliberate in his avoidance of certain words. I fail to see how your snark was justified, simply because I'm not in the Bernie camp of "just like a Democrat" is the same thing as "being a Democrat."

[Scuba]

56. BTW, the gif in your sig line is shameful.

[Sheepshank]

60. So I've been told

I've seen plenty of offensive signature lines while here at DU. Meh. I don't care what you think of my .gif. I've always disliked creepy crawlies

[LWolf]

7. The label "Democrat"

is meaningless if it doesn't stand for something; and it has to stand for something I can support. I'm a Democrat.

I want the label to represent people, not corporations, and positive change, not the status quo.

That's why I think Bernie is a better democrat than the current dlc/centrist/"new dem"/3rd way/neo-liberal "leadership" in our party, and why I support him over that leadership's preferred candidate.

[tokenlib]

39. +100

[PoiBoy]

62. +1,000

[Art_from_Ark]

108. +10,000

[arcane1]

114. You perfectly outlined why we get OP's like this one.

Well-done!

[LWolf]

115. Why, thank you.

[Armstead]

8. word salad blah,blah, blah

Leet's keep it simple:

Sanders was not a Democrat. He has been an independent because he has been critical of both parties and believed they are unwilling to change to benefit the majority.

But he has caused with Democrats in Congress, and many of his positions are the same. When they have not he been he has spoken about it,

This year, he saw a need and an opportunity to get his brand of progressive populism into the mainstream election process. When Warren chose not to run, he decided to go for it. But rather than be a third-party spoiler who might hand the WH to the GOP, he is trying to work within the Democratic Party.

And having done that, he is committed to that.

Like it or not. That's what it is.

[Jackilope]

45. +1

[PowerToThePeople]

9. Trash canning this turd op.

[Sheepshank]

48. Your last statement like this was hidden...for good reason

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=778015

Why not actually discuss the issues that you don't agree with.

[PowerToThePeople]

49. Stalkers

No need or desire to discuss something posted for no reason than to be flamebait.

[Sheepshank]

51. If there was any flame bait it was your response.

I laid out my reasons, I gave example to support my opinion. How is that flamebait?

Seriously, you just didn't like the discussion/opinion so you slap a label on it hoping to justify your rude response.

[dorkzilla]

55. This was one alerted too!

I don’t know why it was even alerted. I guess no one is allowed to have an opinion here anymore.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:33 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If discussion is to exclude the expressing of opinions, what's the purpose?
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh FFS.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[PowerToThePeople]

58. I reiterate the title of my last post in this thread.

eom

[Vinca]

10. Bernie is what a true Democrat should be - what a true Democrat used to be.

If the Democratic Party is upset about him being on their ticket, they should say so. He can always run as an Independent and split the vote. I think Bernie probably thought he was doing them a favor by running as a Democrat so he wouldn't enable the GOP to win by taking away any Democratic votes. But that's gratitude for you . . .

[Sheepshank]

52. He is a true "like" a democrat

He rejects the party label, except for the part where he is trying to garner their votes.

[Vinca]

53. So you (and Donald Trump) would prefer he split the vote?

[Sheepshank]

59. Of course you would prefer to jump to an extreme invalid interpretation

....an interpretation of something that was never said.

It's what a couple of posters here on DU do to try and paint people into a corner. I'd bet you're one of those that dislikes loyalty oaths, but here you are trying to glean one from me. Not biting.

[Vinca]

66. I really don't care about your loyalties or lack thereof.

Vote for whoever you want. I'm just tired of the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" posts. Half the time I don't feel like a Democrat anymore either.

[Sheepshank]

67. If you didn't care, perhaps you could lay off the actual request for loyalty nt

[Vinca]

95. You've got me totally confused.

You want him to run as a Dem, you don't want him to run as a Dem, you want him to run as a Dem, you don't want him to run as a Dem. At this point I haven't a clue what point you're trying to get across.

[Voice for Peace]

68. i dont understand loyalty to a party without principles.

Do you believe Bernie to be a deceiver?

[Sheepshank]

74. I believe in fixing problems from the inside out. Nt

[Voice for Peace]

76. and bernie proposes doing just that. but how can you overlook

His substance? Do you think he is a deceiver?

[Sheepshank]

82. Not once, never has Bernie indicated an interest in party building

Or fixing anything from the inside. If you have found something I've missed, I would love to read it.

[demwing]

11. this shit again?

you've got no.thing

[SheilaT]

12. I am greatly disturbed by Howard Dean's

support of Hillary, and his trashing of Bernie.

I'm one of the original Deaniacs. A lot of us got into political activism because of him. I even wound up running for office, and got a campaign contribution from his organization. The current enthusiasm of the Bernie supporters reminds me a lot of the support for Dean, how people who'd never been very involved suddenly cared a lot. I think Dean has lost touch with the real base of the Democratic party on this one.

[yuiyoshida]

18. I agree with you

Howard Dean, (I still have my Dean tee shirts for when I worked on those campaigns ) got me into politics, and I supported him, but he is wrong here.

[Hortensis]

50. Maybe, but Bernie has been trashing the Democratic Party

for years as its suits him and at the same time using it and its resources as it suits him. Barney Frank feels he owes a lot to the party and has never been asked to pay up -- because the party never saw him as a threat, until now.

Bernie hasn't been running against the GOP, he's running against a democratic president and liberal Democrat candidates. He can't pick up enough voters on issues by claiming Obama and his opponents aren't left enough, so he's tapping into resentment by claiming the party and its processes are corrupted and rigged. This is a bad thing, and undoubtedly potentially destructive for the party. Just look at the very high levels of anti-Democrat hostility burning here -- on DU!

Also, the DNC is losing control of the nominating process same as the GOP. If we're not careful we could also become a promotional venue for people trying to sell books and pump up their speaking fees. As former chair of the DNC, Dean is going to be very concerned with procedural issues and how to help it survive as an organization that can get people elected. The party can't control Bernie, and allowing someone acting like an enemy off the party run under its banner may not turn out in retrospect to be the smartest thing we could have done.

These issues, IMO, are very much aside from the fire Bernie has lit in the grassroots belly. Personally, I've thought all along that the Bernie phenomenon is good for us, but then I didn't realize until I looked around here a few weeks ago just how cannibalizing his campaign is turning out to be. A lot of his supporters here now think all their problems have been caused by Democratic Party betrayals.

[Cali_Democrat]

61. Excellent post. nt

[SheilaT]

65. What Bernie has mostly been trashing

is the Party "Politics as Usual" which has hurt the 99% so very much. A lot of Party Democrats pay lip service to things like a living wage, but do nothing substantive to promote it. Obama, for whom we all had such high hopes, has spent far too much time accommodating the Republicans, starting with taking single payer off the table at the very outset of the ACA negotiations.

Or candidates who enthusiastically supported DOMA, which was one of the most awful things ever, and now, amazingly, have "evolved". Meanwhile, Bernie was supporting LGBT rights back when he was Mayor of Burlington. Except he probably couldn't have done it as an establishment Democrat. I admire his independence, his fierce support of those things which actually benefit the majority.

In the primary season, every candidate is running against the other candidates in the party. So to act offended because Bernie is running against Democrats is ludicrous.

It feels as if Dean was a very independent thinking Democrat back when he was running, and I admired him for it. But ever since he became the DNC chair, he's been more and more subsumed by Party conformity.

And look at who has been selling books and going out on highly paid speaking tours. It's not Bernie.

[Hortensis]

80. It sounds as if you are equating Dean with Sanders because

they both inspired grass roots enthusiasm, SheilaT. But they were talking very, very different issues. I don't understand why anyone would either see them as similar OR conclude that Dean's failure to support Sanders means he is betraying his own principles and no longer the man he was.

Looking back, I see no reason to think that at any age Dean would or should support Bernie's candidacy over Hillary's. He was, after all, overall a pretty mainstream liberal Democrat. His endorsement of Hillary Clinton makes perfect sense based on his positions in general and on her comparative excellence as a candidate, and is NOT some proof of DNC corporatism.

"I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic party." Howard Dean

[SheilaT]

81. I am not equating them directly.

What I am equating is the amazing enthusiasm of their supporters, often people who'd been indifferent to politics before.

Dean may well be a mainstream liberal Democrat, but Hillary is not one. She's at best a moderate Republican in her views and what she supports. Me, I want a genuine liberal in the White House. I sincerely hope I get it.

[Hortensis]

87. Well, you will get a genuine liberal, SheilaT,

though whether you'll be happy I don't know. Liberal's a spectrum, after all, not just a preferred end of it, and Hillary's unlikely to turn out to be truly iconoclastic.

All this reminds me of Paul Wellstone. I would have liked the chance to be a Wellstone Democrat.

[SidDithers]

13. But he has an avatar on DU...

so he, along with Abraham Lincoln, Benjamin Franklin and Nelson Mandela, are officially Democrats.

QED


Sid

[MannyGoldstein]

17. If Dick Cheney declared himself a Democrat,

would you vote for him if you were eligible?

[ibegurpard]

21. of course

[tazkcmo]

25. Wow.

Just, wow.

[ibegurpard]

44. I was answering the question for Sid

Who loves himself some conservatives

[Sheepshank]

24. Within the Democratic Party there are good and bad players

Bernie isn't even in the party for me to alot him a good or bad player designation.

If Cheney were to decide to join the party and declare himself to be a Democrat....I would likely place him in the bad player category.

I'm sure you already knew all of this.

[Fumesucker]

38. Sid didn't even vote for Obama

His Canucksplaining to Americans is most amusing.

[Sheepshank]

79. That's almost pertinent to this discussion

....on second thoughts, it's not actually pertinent at all.

[Fumesucker]

83. Just another example of someone with an opinion and no skin in the game

Which in fact is pertinent to this discussion.

[Sheepshank]

84. I suggest you take this up with Skinner as a new board rule

It really seems to bother you. As for not having any skin in the game, how do you know that?

[Fumesucker]

86. You were the one who started this OP, I don't care who posts what

In fact I've only ever alerted on commercial spam, that's it.

Sid has about as much skin in American politics as we do in Canadian politics, very little.

[Tommy2Tone]

101. If Bernie is nominated

and selects Sara Palin as his running mate would you support the ticket?

[pipoman]

14. Howard Dean doesn't get to define what a Democrat is and neither do you.

Have fun while you're "with Howard Dean"....I swear the idiocy truly berns....

[Sheepshank]

26. Neither do you...I agree the idiocy berns. Nt

[pipoman]

28. nannynannybooboo...lol...ffs

[Sheepshank]

29. Run out of arguments?

Feel better?

[MannyGoldstein]

16. Bernie better represents Democratic values than 95%+ of elected "Democrats"

I'd rather vote for a "Democratic Socialist" who's a Democrat than a "Democrat" who's a Republican.

Wouldn't you?

[Sheepshank]

27. Represents, is like, just like, espouses, caucuses with, more like

Everything but the word IS.

Skirting all over the place but never decided to be a true blue Democrat.

[MannyGoldstein]

32. Your grave-dancing sig speaks volumes.

How do you feel about Dean's A rating from the NRA?

[Sheepshank]

36. Thoroughly dislike them creepy crawlies. I admit it. Nt

[merrily]

35. Bernie is a Democrat under Vermont law, the only law that matters as to his political party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128018753

Beyond that, the Vermont Democratic Party and the DNC have both recognized him as a Democrat. Anyone arrogant*enough to go against those three things is on his or her own, be it Chris Matthews or some anonymous, uncredentialed DUer.

ETA: brass-ily dishonest is the only other possiblity that occurs to me.

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. That went well. n/t

[Robbins]

23. dean has gone lower in my view

he once said before this race that bernie was basicly a liberal democrat in all but name.

Ashme he has gone to this length to promate clinton.

[Sheepshank]

31. DWS capitulated, Dean held fast

He has gone higher in my view.

[jkbRN]

40. To capitulate is not always a bad thing,

Especially when you end up on the right side of things (DWS), and not the wrong side (dean)

[Sheepshank]

47. "To capitulate is mot always a bad thing"

Probably true in some cases...but in this case it was a stupid thing.

But now I have a question...now you like DWS? I was under the impression that all non Hillary Supporters were against anything DWS. She was a road bump under the bus, she was a shill for Clinton, she was not to be trusted under any circumstances. Dare I assume this is another evolution?

[Hepburn]

42. He's running as a Democrat. End of discussion.

It's up to him what he calls himself at any given time. If he is running as a Dem, it his choice and you really have no choice in the decision. Go complain to DWS if you don't like it, OK?

[Lordquinton]

43. DWS acts to undermine the party

Actively. Like campaigning against democrats in races they could have won if she supported them.

Sorry, but if you're talking about "Harming the party" you can't ignore that fact.

Aside from that your OP is pointless, really.

[Art_from_Ark]

109. And not just DWS who's harming the party

For example, in 2013 more than 60 New Jersey "Democrats" endorsed Chris Christie over his Democratic challenger.

http://politickernj.com/2015/11/where-are-the-christie-endorsers-now/

[Sunlei]

46. I believe Senator Sanders when I heard him call himself a "Democratic Socialist"

I want him to run in the primary as a D, "let the voters choose" as I've heard both Mrs. Clinton and Bernie say.

Not to worried very many republicans will vote in this next D primary to try to change who wins. Republicans have a serious Trump problem in their primary.

[Sheepshank]

70. Yes, I believe he calls himself and Independent and DS nt

I also agree there will be some Republican who will vote Dem to try and influence the primary outcome.

[whatchamacallit]

57. More SOD (sanctity of democrats)

[merrily]

63. Howard Dean has said Bernie is an asset to the Party. He never said Bernie was not a Democrat.

What a misleading OP!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. I'm with Thomas Jefferson about parties.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson

[MineralMan]

69. He is, however, a Democratic candidate in the primaries.

So the distinction is really moot.

For all intents and purposes, he is a Democrat with regard to the primary elections. Beyond that, I don't see where the distinction has any value. The people will decide who will be the nominee.

[Sheepshank]

73. Yes he is a Democratic candidate

But I don't think the point moot.

I believe there is s very real distinction between one person on the Dem ticket that is committed to party building, down ticket organizing and supporting, and another candidate on the Dem ticket that has no such compunction. That is important enough of a distinction to give many Dem voters pause.

Many Dem voters realize there is a serious long term effort the Reps have employed that has cost the Dems over 900 state and local seats. Without a concerted coordinated effort, the hemmoraghing will continue unabated. Bernie isn't the one to,lead that effort because he can't rally a group that he has rejected over and over

[moobu2]

71. Bernie Sanders himself said he was only running AS a Democrat

because he wouldn't have had a chance to win as a 3rd party candidate. Bernie Sanders is just using the Democratic Party to give his candidacy a legitimacy it wouldn't have had otherwise.

I believe BS.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

72. I don't believe you.

When you say say that you tried hard to give Sanders the benefit of the doubt, and when you said you were trying to be understanding of Sanders, I don't believe that you were telling the truth. I've seen your posts here.

[Sheepshank]

75. Then you haven't seen them all

The day after he said "I am running as a Democrat", I failed to realize how he was still playing with words, I'd said it was about time and glad he was in.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=770667 Post 22

[Rosa Luxemburg]

77. What are you frightened of?

[Sheepshank]

78. What makes you think I'm frightened?

As it turns out you couldn't be more wrong. I'd stay away from the psych evaluations if I were you. You're not very good at it.

[Luciferous]

85. As long as Bernie is fighting for the American people

he can call himself a purple people eater for all I care. Like he said during the forum last night, he walks the walk and that's what matters.

[Blue_In_AK]

88. Party schmarty...

I will NEVER place party over policy.

[Todays_Illusion]

89. I am a long time registered Democratic voter/volunteer, Howard Dean does not speak for me.nt

[Sheepshank]

91. But Bernie does? That makes no sense.

[Todays_Illusion]

117. I didn't say that? Do you know how a reasonable discussion proceeds?

I said, Howard Dean does not speak for me. I did not mention Bernie Sanders.

You responded to your own dialog, not what I said. To me that means, no dialog possible.

[Bread and Circus]

90. Bernie is a jew

Did that make you think worse or better of him?

I hope not.

Labels don't matter.

Who we are, what we do, what we stand for matters.

[Sheepshank]

92. If you are attempting to work in absolutes, you are doomed to fail

Labels do mean something, on a very frequent basis.

[Bluenorthwest]

94. Howard Dean did not even know our Party's platform when he was Chair now he is opposing the

clearly stated positions of Sanders, the DNC, the current chair, the New Hampshire Democratic Party and their current chair as well as millions of Sanders supporting Democrats. Howard seems confused as to how democracy works, his one opinion does not outweigh the millions. Sorry Howie.

[Gloria]

97. He is a Democratic Socialist whose opportunistic politician's instinct

Has become obvious.

He's faked out his supporters who think he's above politics...

[Sheepshank]

98. It's so obvious. Nt

[Cha]

99. "It would be hypocritical of me to run as a Democrat because of the things I have said about the

party."

Introducing Bernie Sanders the Hypocrite

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/15/1409803/-Introducing-Bernie-Sanders-the-Hypocrite

[Sheepshank]

100. No denying the hypocrisy.

Well I take it back, there is a lot of denial on DU.

[Cha]

104. Deny Deny Deny.

Thanks for your OP, Sheepshank!

[Cleita]

102. He's a loyal American. That's what counts with me. He hasn't sold his soul

out to the money changers. He has always caucused with the Democrats in his votes in the House and the Senate.

[BlueDemKev]

103. I agree with Howard Dean

www.hillaryclinton.com.

[Bonobo]

105. Meow

[yuiyoshida]

106. Unrec

[AgingAmerican]

107. At this point in the game

It's all word salad to me.

[Kip Humphrey]

110. So when 3rd Way, conservative corporatist "Democrats" took over the Democratic Party leadership

that's OK with you because they are Democrats?

Bernie has run as an Independent for his entire congressional career and during that entire time he has caucused with the Democrats. That fact has earned him the right per the Democratic party to run for president on the Democratic ticket.

Bernie has never hidden, denied, or equivocated being an Independent candidate. He has fought 3rd Way corporatist Democratic leadership as they themselves continue to violate and weaken core Democratic principles and values.

Bernie's lifelong work reflects principles and values that epitomize the best of Democratic Party principles and values and he deserves your studied consideration.

Finally, your argument of "Democrat, right or wrong", and "Democratic Party, love it or leave it" smacks of republicanism and their accompanying unreasoned judgement and, if adhered to, fosters blind allegiance that provides great disservice to the party.

[Kalidurga]

111. Good

Some of us put principles before Party. So, no I don't care what other people call Bernie. I don't even care what political label Bernie prefers to wear. I care about his record and what he advocates, the label he uses while doing so isn't terribly important. He is running AS a Democrat. It's legal, it's ethical, and it's moral, so I don't have a problem with it.

It seems you are trying really hard to make people love Bernie more, so carry on I guess.

[demwing]

112. one of us

[Sheepshank]

113. What you are saying is the party is not important

I'm saying there is strength in numbers. We are not in the fight of our lives against other Dems. We are the fight of our lives against the Republican machine. To imagine that the RW can be put aside and rendered immaterial will not happen with a splintered democratic political force. Bernie is not in this with the long term health of Democrats in mind.

I agree there is much that could be made better, but to improve those things from the inside out, rather than dismantle the entire party (which seems to be an on going theme lately) is a more realistic 1-2 punch to dealing with the Republicans, imho. (1) make the party stronger to (2)put the republicans back under a rock and regain the 900 and more, lost local and state Democratic seats.

Bernie despises the party. He's said so numerous times .He will not and does not intend to party build. What happens to the DEMs if after 4 years of Bernie when there is nothing left to coalesce? This is the very reason I say that if Bernie become POTUS, it would take at least 20 years to get back to being a force to recon with.

[KingCharlemagne]

116. How, pray tell, is Sanders undermining the Democratic Party? Inquiring minds would like to know. - n

[Sheepshank]

118. I briefly mentioned it up thread

And then in more details here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251781492

[KingCharlemagne]

119. your argument in the other thread was debunked

and discredited, save perhaps in your mind.

Be that as it may, should Sanders secure the nomination, might we expect you to leave the Democratic Party, being as how you claim to believe?