There's a lot of demoralized Republicans in my office today.

[apnu]

I work in a place that is easily 90% Republican and 70% hard right conservative. They are all fiscal conservatives and chicken hawks -- but they don't care for nor understand social conservative issues.

I'm one of the only 'out' liberals in the office willing to discuss and even debate issues. So I hear a lot of chatter both directed at me, but more often, amongst themselves.

Today, they are demoralized about Romney. They recognize how poorly run Romney's campaign is. They gnash their teeth at the lack of policy in Romney's 'plans' They want to have this election be a referendum on Obama's policies and leadership, but Romney's giving them nothing to hang on to. One guy has been sending pissed off emails to the Romney campaign demanding actual policy almost daily.

They are also fed up with partisan bickering and the polarization in Washington. One manager said to me today: "we've forgotten how to compromise, we can't run the country like this" And then he went off on the Republican congress over that. He also went on to gripe about the mendacity of Republicans, railed about 'fact checkers' for a bit and when I pointed out how sad our culture is that we need fact checkers, that our media fails to fact check a speech, he nodded and said "can you imagine what would happen to a politician 30 years ago if he was caught in a lie? He'd be destroyed! Now Ryan can lie and no one cares!"

They're voting Romney, they can't pull the lever for Obama -- they're too far away form the President because of a steady diet of Fox News, Drudge and the National Review. However, they have zero enthusiasm for this GOP ticket. That's my main point here. They want to know where Romney stands on anything, they also want to know what, exactly, they plan to do with the markets if elected. They're pissed off at the lack of substance and are sick of the platitudes and red meat being hurled at them.

Much has been made about Obama's 'enthusiasm gap' from his 2008 highs, but I'm seeing amongst my small and very localized sample set, a significant enthusiasm gap for the whole Republican party amongst the fiscal conservatives.

[Fresh_Start]

1. You should really feed them Romney policy that they are missing

I'm sure his wanting another middle east war would be music to their ears.

[summerschild]

4. and all his nostalgia for the Cold War. Poking the (Russian) bear is just so much FUN!

If he wins, we'll be in a war by February 2013. I don't know that they even care WHERE as long as they get a war.

[Agnosticsherbet]

2. Romney chose to make the election a referendum on Obama wielding the economy as a club...

Unfortunately, it is a nerf club and Romney has all the edge of Gargomel...

[atreides1]

3. Tell them to stay home.

If any of them actually have a shred of integrity...they would do just that!

[mojo2012]

5. Help me understand this

So all these people are railing on their own party for not being specific, but they are going to vote for Romney/Ryan anyway even if the lives of themselves and their family, neighbors and friends will be radically hurt? They are willing to put that at risk? I doubt that your co-workers are all in the top 1% and they certainly know someone who truly needs programs that will go away under Ryan's plan such as programs for autism, children nutrition, student loans, disaster relief, drug abuse counseling, unemployment insurance, or job training.

There is so much information out there that is FACT on Ryan's Congressional voting record and what direction he really desires for the country. Not just the tax plan, but on social issues. Maybe they should research a little more and then they'll understand why Romney/Ryan AREN'T getting into the specifics.

Here's a good article to start their research.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/08/paul-ryans-grim-vision-america

[apnu]

8. What they want is to know the rules of the game.

By game I mean the financial game. What are the ground rules for regulations? What is the Fed going to do? Is anybody going to regulate the Fed? If so, how? What tax cuts are going to happen? What tax increases are going to happen and to whom?

They're frustrated with Romney because Mr. Business himself is scant on these questions.

[Cosmocat]

40. That is nonsense

this whole, "We just want to know the rules of the game" BS.

Dodd Frank got passed into law as did the AHCA.

The only "uncertainty" that exists is because REPUBLICANS and BUSINESS are doing everything they can to fight tooth and nail on every level the implementation of these laws.

This is NOT President Obama's fault.

His administration is fully prepared to implement both laws.

I have this discussion with business type Rs.

They don't want to hear it, but the need to.

They have themselves (business interests and partisan Rs) to blame for the uncertainty.

I also go at them on their negative views of BO - he is a decent family man, strong on national defense/international relations, has tried to work with Rs ...

I am not obnoxious about these things, but I don't back down. Let them have their say, don't accept any of their BS negative frames of him, and put it back on them.

[apnu]

41. They don't say that to blame Obama...

... They are talking about changes brought on by a shift of political party. For example, they know about Dodd-Frank, but also worry about new rules if a Republican President and Congress do a 180. Though they'd like less regulation, they don't want the rules of the game changing on them In the middle of the fiscal year. That's what they mean about 'uncertainty' in the markets.

I agree with none of this mind you. I can't understand how these men of means and market wisdom cannot prepare their ships for an undulation ocean. The want to pilot the seas of finance, but desire that ocean to be calm as an still pond. That is a dichotomy I cannot balance.

[Wounded Bear]

45. Most people who say they want 'less regulation'.........

generally mean 'less regulation on me and my business.' They care little about any other cases or affects on others.

In fact, they're usually pretty complacent in any regulation that affect the other guys, as this increases their own business leverage. So they favor 'self regulation' of their own business. "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."

[sofa king]

6. Heh. The policy is to fuck the American people.

That's why they're not talking about it. That is why GWB never talked about his "policy" in 2000, because the people would not have elected him if his criminal plans to raise the price of oil and start a war were revealed in advance.

Unfortunately, if you tell your coworkers that, they will simply choose to believe the opposite of what you say. So don't tell them!

Better to let them squirm in their own excrement and wonder why it smells, in hopes that they will eventually sniff their own hands.

[Raster]

11. And make NO MISTAKE, bush* and cheney* were planning on invading Iraq...

Last edited Fri Aug 31, 2012, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)

...long before the SCOTUS appointed them pResident and Vice pResident. The fix was in. Iraq would be invaded so gee-Dubya* could fondle his "daddy issues," and darth cheney* could give his petroleum mafia buddies access to all of that lovely Iraqi oil.



http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/08/24

Published on Friday, August 24, 2012 by TomDispatch.com

You Were Right When You Waved That “No Blood for Oil” Sign. Iraq Was About Oil
by Tom Engelhardt

It was never exactly rocket science. You didn’t have to be Einstein to figure it out. In early 2003, the Bush administration was visibly preparing to invade Iraq, a nation with a nasty ruler who himself hadn’t hesitated to invade another country, Iran, in the early 1980s for no purpose except self-aggrandizement. (And the Reagan administration had backed him in that disastrous war because then, as now, Washington loathed the Iranians.) There was never the slightest evidence of the involvement of Saddam Hussein’s regime in the 9/11 attacks or in support of al-Qaeda; and despite the Bush administration’s drumbeat of supposed information about Saddam’s nuclear program (which was said, somehow, to threaten to put mushroom clouds over American cities), the evidence was always, at best, beyond thin and at worst, a potage of lies, concoctions, and wishful thinking. The program, of course, proved nonexistent, but too late to matter.

There was only one reason to invade Iraq and it could be captured in a single word, “oil,” even if George W. Bush and his top officials generally went out of their way to avoid mentioning it. (At one point, post-invasion, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz did point out that Iraq was indeed afloat “on a sea of oil.”) Unfortunately, oil as a significant factor in invasion planning was considered far too simpleminded for the sophisticated pundits and reporters of the mainstream media. They were unimpressed by it even when, as the looting began in Baghdad, it turned out that U.S. troops only had orders to guard the Oil Ministry and Interior Ministry (which housed Saddam’s dreaded secret police).

Mind you, far more than Iraqi oil was in the administration’s crosshairs, though that country, with its then-crippled energy sector, was considered a giant oil reservoir just waiting for Big Oil to set it free. To conquer and garrison -- “liberate” -- Iraq would put the U.S. in a position of ultimate domination in the oil heartlands of the planet, or so thought the top officials of the Bush administration, a number of whom had been in or associated with the energy business before scaling the heights of Washington. As Dick Cheney put it to the Institute of Petroleum Engineers in 1999, when he was still running the energy company Halliburton, "The Middle East, with two thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."

<more>

[CrispyQ]

7. Here's what happened to me & what I hope happens to other dems like me.

I've been very critical of this president & often with good cause. But when I see the freakshow that the repub party has become, I have to vote against that. I have to vote against assholes who want to send women back to the kitchen & minorities back to the field & gays back to the closet. Fuck them, fuck them, fuck them.

We aren't going back, you fuckwads. I almost considered voting 3rd party until you ugly little assholes, filled with overconfidence because of the media's kid glove treatment of you, started letting your true selves really show through. Holy fuck! Bad as I thought it was from what I'd seen before, the horror is much, much worse.

We aren't going back, you fuckwads.



There! How's that for an enthusiasm gap?

[apnu]

9. i like it. (nt)

[CrispyQ]

12. I am outraged at the behavior I see!

The outright lies, the arrogance. All of it makes me sick.

It's time to do the adult thing & vote for the adult party. Repubs need another 4 year time out.

[HopeHoops]

10. Advise them to stay home on the 6th. Then they won't feel guilty.

[apnu]

13. That's not my thing. If anything I think every person who can vote should vote.

I'd love to give up election day in November as as national holiday so more people can vote, celebrate our democracy and have the opportunity to volunteer to be part of the election process.

[HopeHoops]

14. Curiously, the GOP wants the opposite. I agree that our problem is low turnout (all parties), but...

The voter roll purges and voter ID laws are GOP tactics to reduce Democratic voter rights. It's been illegal to NOT vote in Australia for over 20 years! But there is a legitimate protest vote by not voting. I don't particularly agree with it, but it is effective. If you can't in good conscience vote for any of the candidates, then it's your decision to avoid the election. Just don't bitch about it afterwards. And I've been saying that for 30 years - "Don't vote, then don't bitch." It's still your choice. My middle daughter is of voting age but will not be voting. She's still formulating her opinions on things.

[apnu]

17. I don't think it is curious that the GOP is high on voter suppression.

They know their brand is dying. They know America is blending, and our "whiteness" is rapidly turning brown. They know and complain that Democrats "cater" to the urban poor and minorities. They are more interested in their party than they are running the country. They put their party before the best interests of the nation and game the system, hell write the rules of the system to benefit them and theirs to the exclusion of everybody else. Further to that, they also are gripped by a near constant fear of the "other" which is the root cause of all their racism and bigotry.

In short, they are star bellied Sneeches.

[HopeHoops]

22. Sneeches they be. And attrition will eliminate the party. They don't even take care of the seniors.

I'm always shocked when I see seniors at GOP rallies. How the fuck can you be a senior citizen and have a favorable view of GOP policies? That just blows my mind. I don't understand how women, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, or any other non-white male demographic could even CONSIDER voting for the GOP. Their policies are totally contrary to those interests. Yes, I'm white and I'm male. I'm also going to vote for Obama - again - and proudly.

[marions ghost]

31. Australia is light-years ahead of us in this--

if you make voting mandatory, it takes away ALL the criminal efforts to skew the vote, disenfranchise voters, all the dirty tricks. It's the only way to ensure a clean election. Everyone votes and their votes are protected. (There is only a small fine for not showing up, and as long as you do show up, you can still abstain). This would work well here and it would cure a LOT of evils, but we are a long way from it.

[HopeHoops]

33. Yeah, they also dumped the penny 25 years ago.

[marions ghost]

34. And went metric and had seat belt laws long before the US.

Australia goes wrong when it goes along with the US. Right when they ignore the US.

[HopeHoops]

35. Yeah, but they still have kangaroos and rabbits out the ass! We don't matter to them.

Disclaimer: I've worked for two different Australian run companies in the last 15 years and I STILL can't understand a fucking word they say.

[marions ghost]

37. We do matter to them politically

and their govt pandered to George Bush during his reign of terror.

Yes it's an interesting accent... Of course they say the same thing about our regional accents. Try getting a Southerner and an Aussie together--pretty funny....

One time an Aussie in New York State called a friend of mine what the American heard as "A Bloat." The friend was about ready to punch the Aussie out until I told him, "No, no it's OK--he said "bloke" which just means "guy."

[HopeHoops]

38. Hmm. Sounds like a good time for a Vegemite sandwich.

[marions ghost]

39. extra thick, ta, WITH butta

[indie_voter]

15. This is a rhetorical question, not aimed at you!

I just can not understand how anybody thinks this current crop of Republicans from Reagan onward represents fiscal conservatism. The Republicans are the reason for our huge National debt. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[apnu]

19. For the Republicans I know, I can say this...

They are very clannish, team first sort of people. They identify with being on the Republican "team" and so will trust any Republican at their word almost automatically. They are very competitive people and need to have someone to be "against" they do not seem to get the concept that we are all on the same "team" called America. They just don't see Democrats, liberals, minorities and women as being on their "team."

Given that blind acceptance, they can't see how Republican policies have affected our debt. When pressed they willfully ignore my factual statements, (such as Cheney saying "Reagan proved deficits don't matter.&quot or they attempt to explain it away as the deficit is some how the Democrats fault anyway. For example, when reminded that Reagan both raised taxes and went off on a crazy deficit spending spree, they point out that it was the Democratic Congress' fault for letting him do that. Reagan is still a "great man" but its the Dems fault for not reigning him in. That's the wacko world they live in.

They don't connect Bush's tax cuts to his two wars of choice. They see them as two distinct things that have no relation to each other and so, slashing revenues then waging two very expensive wars doesn't exist in their realities.

Having said all that they are genuinely shocked at the current deficit which is a shocking number. Honestly, I think their blindness to Bush's policies was like a fog for them and when they saw the bill Obama showed the nation they freaked the hell out. Now, you and I knew all along with Bush this was going on, but they didn't. Their freak out is genuine, nobody likes a surprise like that it sorta went like this: On January 20th 2009 they woke up from a bender and saw the bar bill.

None of this excuses their willful ignorance and blindness to their own party's failures. But, because of their "team" first mentality, they have difficulty accepting that their team may actually be in the wrong. They aren't afraid to lose elections, they know if their team gets stuffed in the Super Bowl they'll be sad for a little bit but then move on and look forward to next season. But they are suddenly realizing that the team they thought was awesome isn't so awesome anymore. They're starting to act like sports fans watching their team sink to the bottom of the standings. And, on top of that, deep down they quietly are starting to understand that their team had a hand in our economic misfortunes. Its a hard thing to accept that your guy, your "team," your clan might be in the wrong. Its like finding out that your uncle whom you have fond memories for, is actually a serial killer.

At least that's how it looks to the types of Republicans I know. I do not know any social conservatives. I, as a rule, don't associate with those people. The anti-choice, bible-thumping, hateful bigots aren't worth my time.

[indie_voter]

26. Thank you for this very thoughtful reply! :) n/t

[EC]

16. I don't understand what they don't like about

Obama's policies. The stock market has more than doubled since he took office, what more do they want? Do they even know Obama's policies? Do they know that the budget is still Bush's since Dems have been unable to really change anything?

[apnu]

20. Some of them have tried to tell me we haven't recovered in spite of what the DJA says.

When confronted to that, I chuckle and point at one of the 5 TVs in our office running either CNBC or Bloomberg. "The Dow is up, what you talkin' about?" I say.

[LiberalFighter]

18. Encourage them to vote for Obama to send a message to Republicans.

And also encourage them to:

1) Question what any Republican and even Democrats about their position.

2) Question what the media tells you unless they provide details that can be backed up. It's easy to make up the details. Fox does it all the time.

3) Make sure the facts and numbers add up. Democrats want the numbers and facts to add up. That is being fiscally conservative. If one picks and chooses the facts and numbers to use they cannot be trusted.

4) Understand the short term and long term consequences. What helps you might harm others. What harms others might harm you. What helps others might help you. Which do you really want?

5) Get to know your elected official or their staff. Do they serve the people or themselves?

[apnu]

24. Interesting notions

For #1. I do that. I've learned that, when you remove discussing a specific politician or party and just start talking about issues we are not very far from each other. We both don't like high unemployment, we both don't like debt, we both don't like the rigged financial system. I try to show them that Democrats aren't the demons their Fox News makes them out to be. I've found that the discussion then, becomes very reasonable and constructive.

#2 I tell them to turn off the TV, and if they get a news story, they should look for the same story on another site, one that doesn't have the same bias that their original article produced. From there, the common points will be the actual truth and the divergent points are the opinion injected into the piece. They don't like the time sink that generates, but I remind them that on the important issues, its best to slow down and really think it over before deciding anything.

#3 This is hard. They have a whole ecosystem of information that they circle around amongst themselves. I've seen a lot of it and most of it is devoid sources, and if there's a source its very dubious. Like Krauthammer says blah, blah, blah. They have a very poor sense of what is a fact and what is an opinion. I have a special Fuck You stored for Fox News for blurring this line.

#4 These guys are financial types, the long game is very difficult for them to conceptualize. But I do try to get them to see it. I try to get them to agree on topics like: who wants a polluted America? Who wants dirty drinking water and filthy parks? Who wants to leave that sludge for our kids? Once they agree in principle, I gently, try to guide them around to more environmental awareness. I try to let them come to this realization on their own. Nobody likes someone preaching, so the quickest way to get them to ignore me is to give them a lecture.

#5 I don't think they know how their local people are. I have not heard of them volunteering their time for elections or attending community meetings that aren't the PTA. One guy likes to troll his town's message boards, but that's because it amuses him to make fun of his own town. Another guy gets very excited about the election, but in a super fan sense, the kind that always goes to the Super Bowl no matter who is in it. But that's the extent of their volunteerism. However, I will see if they know who their local reps are and remind them they're welcome to chatter at them anytime. Being involved, even if it is just writing the occasional letter to a state senator or Congress critter, is important.

[JustAnotherGen]

21. Outside my office

I heard this - basically a paraphrase -

I simply can't do it. I don't know that I will vote for Obama - but I won't be voting for Romney.

And the response -

No - I'm voting for Obama even though I'm all about Christie (I'm in NJ) -but we need to send a message.



And then they went for coffee.

[apnu]

28. None of them in my office thinks Romney will win.

None of them wanted Romney in the first place. They were, initially, very taken by Cain. Then they fell back to Newt, begrudgingly after a very brief flirtation with Perry.

They were appalled how poorly run the primary season was, and are appalled that Romney hasn't tightened the national campaign up.

So their convinced Romney can't win it regardless of what they want. They believe he's the weakest candidate of the field this year. They just don't have any faith in Romney to close a deal with the American people. Which is true. I haven't seen this weak of an opponent since Walter Mondale in 1984. Yes, Romney is weaker than Bob Dole.

Your story follows a simular vein to what I hear in the office, only with out needing to "send a message" They won't, perhaps can't conceive of voting for a Democrat over a Republican. Their party bigotry runs that deep. To them, "sending a message" to the GOP is to vote for a tea bagger or a libertarian -- anything other than a Democrat.

Now, I'm in Illinois where Obama has a 2-1 edge over Romney, so their vote for Romney won't matter one bit, and they know it. But you'd think they're so disgusted with Obama they'd be proud to at least cast a symbolic vote against the President, but Romney is so weak they can't even muster that kind of excitement.

When I encounter Democrats and liberals saying they're not going to vote because IL is a "safe" state, I say "why wouldn't you vote? Aren't you proud to pull the lever for the first African American President in history? I want to be a active part of history and say 'Hell yeah I voted for that guy!' I also want to get to the polls and say to the Republicans: I reject your policies and platforms. Don't you want to say that too?"

[JustAnotherGen]

46. That's it

You are in IL - I'm in NJ.

We had disaffected Democratics that sat home and look at what happened - We got Jabba for the Governor.

The people that support Christie are Rabid.

But they aren't rabid enough to vote for Romney. And some of those, well many - they think Christie has a shot in2016. I think some thought he had a shot in 2012. And they are very very angry. But not angry enough to vote for Romney.

I think in NJ our total number of votes cast in the Senate and House races will be much higher than total votes cast in the Presidential race.

[Yavin4]

23. Offer Them Your Chair

Maybe that would make them happy.

[apnu]

25. LOL!

They thought Clint's chair was bizarre. They were as shocked and befuddled today as Maddow was last night.

[ann---]

27. That probably indicates

that independents are lost to the gopers. Yeah, Obama!

[apnu]

29. That's what I'm thinking

If the GOP voters are demoralized, I imagine the independents are repelled by Etch and his lying little brother.

[1GirlieGirl]

30. I also work with mostly repubs

They may be demoralized but they would never ever vote for any non-repub. The GOP is counting on the ignorance and closed-mindedness of their disciples. The folks I work with watch Fox news and nothing else. They don't care about facts. They just want That Black Guy out of the White House.

[Amonester]

36. May I suggest you buy the next edition of Rolling Stone for Mark Taibbi's articles, and...

leave it somewhere (not necessarily near the exact place where you work) in there (if you can afford it).

(I saw a similar suggestion posted in a GD Group thread yesterday, but I don't have time to look it up.)

Hold on.





Last day to donate at http://www.barackobama.com/

[grantcart]

32. at the next meeting raise your hand and say "with all of the gnashing of teeth that is going on

I think we need to upgrade our Dental Plan".

[Tom Ripley]

42. Why waste your time? It seems as if they want you to provide them reasons why...

they should enthusiastically vote for Romney. They have already declared they are automatically voting for him, So, what is the point of your effort?
Fuck them. He is their candidate.

[apnu]

43. I din 't make any efforts. Yhey come to me.

Being the only liberal that is willing to have a debate, they walk to my cube. I prove to them where they are wrong, with facts from credible sources, or point out othe points of view they may have not considered. What decisions they make after that is thier business.

I am mearly giving you my observations on the Republican mind in the small sample set I can dierctly witness.

[woolldog]

44. apnu, see if you can get them to vote for

Gary Johnson. I try to do that with all the conservatives I know. Most dont care that much about social and military issues, but care a lot about fiscal issues: the debt and deficit and spending, which is why promoting Gary Johnson to these guys who are never going to vote Obama is a great way of siphoning votes away from Romney.

Once they research him surprisingly a lot of them realize they're closer to his views than Romney's.

[melvinmartinez]

47. Who can blame them?

Axelrod, Biden, and Pelosi [link:OBAMA CAMP THINKS THEY'VE WON: Yes, 'America IS Better Off' http://www.martinezreport.com/2012/09/04/obama-camp-thinks-theyve-won-yes-america-is-better-off/|know] they've got the best guy. The hard-right hates these guys.