Is it Bernie or his agenda that the Hillary supporters are against???

[SoLeftIAmRight]

any honest responses?

ON EDIT

My goal is a push to the left

If Hillary supporters would say to Hillary...

"I think you are the one that can win but I support the positions held by Sanders"

Might help

[NCTraveler]

1. More his relevance, or lack thereof, in the political sphere.

Said it over and over again. I think he is a great guy.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

2. do you think the support shown for him has moved the conversation to the left?

or is that relevant?

[NCTraveler]

17. I don't think the conversation is much further left than the '08 primary.

And I never referenced support. I was talking about Sanders career as a politician.

[daleanime]

8. Huh?

[NCTraveler]

11. Burp. nt.

[daleanime]

18. Try a match...

That was very enlightening.

[NCTraveler]

20. Huh?

[Matariki]

140. I voted for Clinton in the 2008 primaries

Although I liked Obama fine, I thought he didn't have enough experience yet, having just been elected to the Senate.

I was wrong. I think he's been an excellent President. In fact, I'm going to be quite sad when his term is up.

[djean111]

3. I don't get the impression that they care about Bernie's agenda at all -

it seems to me like they are just against Bernie running against Hillary and attracting enthusiastic followers. Not what was supposed to happen, IMO and all that. Like he was just supposed to run for a little while, energize demographics that could care less about Hillary and/or politics, we would all pretend that Hillary was pushed a little to the left (bwahahaha!) and then he would quit and turn everything over to the DNC and Hillary.

[Frances]

71. I am for whoever wins the primary

Obama was not my first choice in 2008. I am embarrassed to say that I liked Edwards. But once Obama was chosen, I worked really hard for him.

I think disparaging either Hillary or Bernie plays into the hands of the AWFUL Repub candidates.

[GoneFishin]

121. I agree. It was "her turn" and Bernie is messing things up. I do think that there are some

conservadems who truly like Hillary's sucking up to Wall Street and the Banksters.

[senz]

125. I agree with you on both points.

You summed it up for me.

[emulatorloo]

4. Flamebait

Sorry I just don't see the point of your question other than to start another flame war.

Do we really need another thread for Bernie and HRC supporters to go nuclear on each other?

There are several already today.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

10. no - not true

It is my wish that Hillary supporters would say - I think you can win Hillary but I like the Sanders message.

Simple way to win win

[emulatorloo]

39. Ok, best of luck!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

46. are ther any issues that you would like to see her take a more left approach?

and if so how?

[emulatorloo]

50. I'm supporting Bernie for the nomination

[SoLeftIAmRight]

54. yea

be well

[zappaman]

5. Maybe they aren't as AGAINST Sanders as they are FOR Clinton?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

30. my question is really...

do they want her to move towards the left?

[comradebillyboy]

84. The obvious answer...nt

[OKNancy]

6. I like a lot of what he says, however he can't win the general election

He and Hillary are actually not that far apart policy-wise.
I also do not believe he could ever get what he says he wants passed. There will be NO revolution.
Sorry, it's not going to happen. Congress will remain in Republican hands. It will be difficult no matter which Democrat is elected.
I do believe Hillary has the temperament to deal with them better. I'm for Hillary. I think she will make a better President.

What I hate the most is his supporters and their hyperbolic trashing of Hillary Clinton.
A lot of kooky-konspiracy woo woo. IMO.

[daleanime]

12. So there's no possible reason for democratic voter to not want Hillary?

[uponit7771]

107. Plenty, Sanders IS more idealogically left and has been that way longer. He gets points for that but

... not so many points that its worth taking a chance on him when

1. It's going to be a hard win with such an ideological bend that the times do not call for
2. It's going to be damn near impossible to get past this historacally gerrymandered congress

[SoLeftIAmRight]

16. It would be a win win to say...

I believe you can win Hillary but I like the ideas pushed by sanders - get her but with a push to the left

[daleanime]

19. Why? Do you really believe....

she would stay there?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

21. some days I let myself believe the strangest things

I can dream

[daleanime]

23. I think it's safe to say....

that would be a dream.

[antigop]

29. +1 to the "Bernie is unelectable" meme counter. nt

[Ed Suspicious]

63. +1 to this +1

[uponit7771]

109. ... and ignore the "he'll have to deal with a historically gerrymandred congress" rational?! Come on

... people, this has been hashed over and over again on this board.

HRC supporters don't see Sanders as Super Man, he's not going to leap over congress with a single bound or something

[JDPriestly]

66. I think this is where Hillary and Bernie voters differ greatly:

"He and Hillary are actually not that far apart policy-wise

As a Bernie supporter, I see huge differences between Hillary's and Bernie's policy stances.

On health care, on college tuition, on foreign policy, on the financial sector, on the environment, on reforming our policing and justice system, on family leave -- the funding for it -- on virtually every issue, I prefer Bernie's stance and I see Hillary's stance as being much, much weaker.

Most important, I see a huge difference between Hillary and Sanders on the Citizens United and corruption issues.

With Hillary, I expect more of the same.

With Bernie, I do not expect miracles, but I expect at least a stronger advocacy for the important changes we need. And I think Bernie will get change on a significant number of issues, especially the environment and campaign finance reform as well as college tuition.

The current system in which parents fill out financial aid applications and children and parents are saddled with unpayable debt cannot continue.

Of course, people who have a lot of money or who can educate their children or who have no college-bound or college indebted children don't understand why the free tuition at state colleges and post-secondary schools is so important. But it is. It may well decide this election and the future of our country.

[uponit7771]

110. Few people believe Hillary is Teh Satan for the left and how Sanders will deal with an historically

... gerrymandered congress and a heavy ideological bend is a query that is constantly ignored by SBS camp, other than revolution and coat tails and vote for him first.... all non answers.

[JDPriestly]

111. Sanders has been in the Congress for many, many years.

Of all the candidates, he will know best how to get along with the Republicans. He knows them personally longer than either Hillary or O'Malley, that is, on a professional, congressional level.

He has worked with many of the Republicans in the past, voted with and against them. He and John McCain, for example, worked together on VA problems. Bernie got health clinics written into the ACA. Bernie is the best qualified to work with all sides in Congress.

Bernie is not nearly as hated by the Republicans as Hillary is. That's a start Puts him way ahead of Hillary in this division.

[uponit7771]

112. Ok, that's a new one... He'll get along with people who cost the country 24 billion dollars to shut

... the government down for stupid Cruz's agenda.

No, that's not even close to what I've seen out the GOP... that's not something I think I can take a chance on...

The GOP doesn't answer to the people who vote for them... there's no way they're going to work with people who don't.

Obama was not obstructed because he wasn't willing to wheel and deal with congress, he was obstructed because they'd rather kill any progress in the country than Obama have overwhelming success.

[JDPriestly]

118. So why bother to run a Democrat for the White House at all?

My point is not that getting along with Republicans will be easy for anyone, but that it will be easier for Sanders who knows them and is known by them, than for Hillary.

Remember when Sanders and Rand Paul managed to get at least some sort of audit of the Fed? Sanders knows better than Hillary how to work with Republicans, how to nudge them forward. He's done it. Hilary has not.

[uponit7771]

119. USSC?! etc, et al?! Ah and you remind me of another reason I'm skeptical of Sanders...

... he sounds, walks, talks, shoots ... like a Libertarian with a conscious.

Sanders relationship with the GOP congress changes the day he puts he's sworn in, that's not a convincing position imho

[senz]

127. Libertarians and Democratic Socialists are 180° apart

Look 'em up. Read. Learn.

[stevenleser]

129. It's a holding action only until we can undo the gerrymandered House of Representatives.

With the Republicans being obstructionists and holding the House via Gerrymandering until Jan 2023 at the earliest, the entire reason for putting a Democrat into the White House this time is to prevent an avalanche of extreme right wing legislation from being passed by a Republican White House and Republican Congress. And to prevent Conservative SCOTUS justices from being seated.

Thats it.

[uponit7771]

139. +1, its like no one has explained the consequences of the 2010 midterms to people...

... this country was really hurt that election year

[JoePhilly]

74. + 1

[DFW]

7. I haven't seen any huge evidence of either

Last edited Mon Jan 4, 2016, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

As far as I can tell, most Hillary supporters seem to post in favor of their candidate rather than against Bernie.

The premise of negativity hasn't been borne out by most of the pro-Hillary posts I've read, not that I read all posts.

[JTFrog]

60. +1 n/t

[Fawke Em]

103. You haven't been on the receiving end of their Bernie hate, then.

They alert swarm - even in the protected Bernie group - and constantly level memes ("he's unelectable!", "he's not a Democrat", etc.) that simply aren't true.

The only meme I consistently spread about Hillary is that she's not a progressive (with the exception of some social issues) and I've posted dozens of links that back up my assertion. I really don't like her because of her neo-con foreign policy and bank-favored economic positions (and I don't trust that she's really fight Wall Street).

Just my two cents.

[DFW]

130. True that

But then I haven't really made my choice yet (don't see any reason to rush), and haven't been quiet about it. As an American living in Germany, my concerns aren't the same as many others on DU. SCOTUS is foremost on my mind, as I like to come back to visit an America where civil rights, abortion rights, and voting rights are intact. I already pay a de facto tax rate of 50% (42% top rate plus supplements), which kicks in around $110,000 gross income in Germany, so calls for a higher tax rate don't faze me in the slightest. I'm already there. As my employer is American, I get none of the benefits Germans do in the package--no health insurance and no social security. The Germans just say danke schön for the money and please shut up. They want €2500 a month from me for health insurance. Cheap, as MAD magazine used to say. Instead of forking over €30,000 a year, I think I'll continue with my Blue Cross and hope they'll reimburse me if I need something drastic. Where the Germans think I am supposed to come up with that kind of bread for insurance I have no clue. They did say I could deduct it from my income. I said thanks, but don't you need that much extra income in the first place before you can start to deduct it?

I haven't been on the hate-receiving end except from Bernie supporters, actually, and mostly just one. No Bernie hate has been tossed at me. I posted a reply to some post on the home page, and it turned out to be from the Bernie group. I didn't even realize there were such groups. It never occurred to me to check. So, some nasty angry self-righteous crusader came down on me like a ton of bricks and banned me from a group I didn't even realize I had posted in. Boo fucking hoo. She isn't the kind of company I want to be keeping anyway, so no loss. "With malice toward none," as Lincoln wrote.

I've seen your position on Hillary. Fine with me, although I find it a little harsh. The few times I have met her, she certainly didn't come across as someone who was anyone's tool (or fool). Plus, a good buddy of mine happens to be whispering in her ear a lot these days, and until he gets disgusted or until she kicks him off her team, I find reason to hope she will feel the tug toward the left. He is not exactly known for being the right's ally--they hate his guts. My friend's brother supports Bernie openly, and they are still on good terms, so I don't see why it's so hard for DU. I will be meeting with Howard's brother this weekend--his name is Jim--and hope to get the lowdown from him on what both are up to. I haven't yet met Bernie, so I can't tell you what he's like in a one on one. I did spend some time with one of his Senate colleagues a few days ago, and he said that while Bernie was off doing his own thing most of the time, he did a very credible job chairing that Senate committee that dealt with veterans' affairs, or whatever it was, a few years ago.

[Thinkingabout]

9. I want the most qualified person to perform the responsibility of the position I am voting.

Hillary is the most qualified, she has the foreign experience and ability to be president. In fact lots of their issues are the same, I like Hillary's position of college funding better than the position Sanders has taken, there are a few more issues, this was just one.

[Fawke Em]

104. Again: How is someone who makes a lot of foreign policy mistakes qualified?

Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc.

But, I won't change your mind, I know. I know what group you belong to.

[firebrand80]

13. I like Bernie

He seems like an honest man that's willing to fight for what he believes in. The "problem" I have with him is I don't think he's a very good politician, and I think he would likely lose the Presidential election to a center-right candidate.

Many of his supporters seem like good people as well. What annoys me about some of them is that a lot of talking points have become meaningless cliches.

"If the the people stand together...blah, blah, blah,." If Bernie wins the primary, it will be because he ran a good campaign and built a majority coalition. There's no need to talk about the election as though it were the French revolution.

The use of buzzwords like "corporatist" and "oligarch." Those words do have meaning, but they're mind-numbingly overused. Not EVERYTHING is a corporatist conspiracy against Bernie.

[Armstead]

108. No those "mind numbing buzzwords" don't get used enough

Sanders aside, we live in an oligarchy that is steadily destroying democracy, and dragging us economically into the status of a bannana republic. The upper crust is disgustingly fat and powerful, while more and more people are being thrust into poverty and financial peril, because of the immoral values of the political and economic elites.

But the mainstream politicians and media have not admitted the emperor has no clothes for decades. The sold us proles on a bunch if lies and distractions.

Damn right we live in an oligarchy. And until more of us wake up and smell the coffee, that can't be ignored. It's like if we are drinking tainted water and keep drinking from the same well, it has to be mentioned until we stop drinking the stuff, and work to clean it up.

[NurseJackie]

14. Enjoy your bonfire.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

27. so - that is how you see things

My interest is a move to the left

Someday somewhere we have got to move the middle back to the left - total support for the Clinton position will not do it

[JoePhilly]

55. Yup ... an OP Bernie supporters can use to attack Hillary supporters freely.

But what's new?

[Rebkeh]

15. The quick version

I'm on the go and can't go deep but I think it comes down to several things:

1. Aversion to risk
2. Don't believe we can change the game, only play it strategically. Post primary, this makes sense but not now
3. They believe the perceptions of the truth rather than the truth itself - can't hear the signal for the noise
4 can't see the forest for the trees

Basically

[Scuba]

24. +1

[uponit7771]

94. 1. Not adverse to risk, just don't see Sanders is worth it seeing this historically gerrymandered

... congress which to this day none of his supporters or him have outlined how they're going to get a progressive agenda past practically... the risk reward ratio is skewed against him right now

2. Obama was a change in the game... that's obvious from the start so not only can the game be changed put for the better of the country. ... number one comes to mind

3. There's no "perception" that Sanders would be more progressive than Hillary, he would... no one is that deluded... just not so progressive without an FDR congress to work with that it's worth risking a vote on him.

4. I can see Sanders still is trying to deal with a non VT environment, that's a forest that stands out right away and for the general its huge.

[Rebkeh]

117. About numbers two and three

Obama is definitely part of it but progress is ongoing, a Sanders presidency would keep the forward momentum going. The others, less so (if at all). If anything, the others would slow progress - two steps back for every step forward.

By "perception" I meant that the media and other "experts" are not seeing the raw truth of what's happening on the ground all over the country. For example, as a population we are more left than they report. Their premises are flawed from the get go. Also, polling ... I don't trust any of it this early because it shapes perception so much, not to mention obvious biases inherent in them. Yet everything we know to be "true" is based on polling. These are just two examples. At this point, most of the candidates are performers on stage and they project a persona as well. It's all smoke, mirrors and tricks. It's almost as if they aren't taken seriously unless they dance for us. I want a leader, not a performer.

As for your responses to one and four, you confirm my point about risk aversion. We don't have to settle, we are conditioned to. After the primary ... maybe it will be wise to but definitely not now.

On edit: another perception is that the other candidates are progressive which is ... not entirely true. At best that distinction is only partially deserved.

If you are concerned about gerrymandered districts, Bernie is the better bet anyway. I'm not sure I understand the logic there.

[uponit7771]

120. OK so I got 20 mph faster, with Sanders... thats not worth risking. If Sanders proffered a practical

... way to deal with this overly gerrymandered congress then it's considerable.

Sanders could've shown leadership in 2009 seeing the 2010 election was so pivotal, if that was done he'd be a shoe in...

HIllary wouldn't even have ran

[Rebkeh]

122. I think it's worth the risk nt

[Godhumor]

22. I'm not against Bernie; I'm for Hillary

It is an important distinction.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

61. so the question is...

do you want a move back to the left and if so how can we show her that?

[anigbrowl]

25. Neither, I'm just for Hillary

Bernie has lofty goals, but I have little confidence about his ability to implement any of them. Hillary's goals are less ambitious and less ideological, and will come at a higher price of political compromise, but I think she is likely to achieve fr more of her agenda than Bernie ever will because she has a deep understanding of how the executive branch works and of how to wield power in general. I prefer an effective Machiavellian leader to an ineffective saint.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

32. My real question...

Would you like it if she would move more to the left?

[anigbrowl]

48. You should have asked your real question in your OP

I do not care for ideological interrogations and so I am not going to participate in a long thread where you keep peppering me with questions.

Life is short and my political views are complex. I am to the left of most people on some issues and to the right on others, and I think that simplistic left-right dichotomies are part of what's wrong with politics in this country.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

53. I understand

still the question remains -

I would like a move from the right

interested in where people want that move

[anigbrowl]

57. Thanks.

Nothing personal, I'm just being more selective about how I use social media these days.

[uponit7771]

96. This is an excellent summation and don't know why people are still asking after so many have

...reiterated what you posted so many times.

It's simple, Sanders isn't worth the risk with this congress...

[northoftheborder]

114. Well said.

[Agnosticsherbet]

26. His voting record on the Brady Bill and his vote to immunize gun manufacturers.

is why I stopped supporting Sanders.

It is my opinion, his economic policies will not solve the problems with race or sexism in this country. Even if he wins the nomination and is elected, his economic agenda will not be passed by any Congress in the foreseeable future. There is not one thing in his economic agenda that Republicans will support. If we retake the Senate between 2016 and 2018, and then retake the House in 2020, we might see some good, liberal legislation. I don't think even a Democratic Majority would legislate most of his programs into existence.

He has certainly tried to add solutions to the problems of race and sexism to his campaign, but I am not convinced that he would put aside his economic agenda and work to solve the problems of race and sexism first.

In an election that is going to hinge on foreign policy, his statements to this point do not convince me that he will do well in that area.

To sum up. I have nothing against Sanders.
As to his agenda, it would be great if it could be legislated into existence, but I see no chance of that.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

28. single issue voters worry me

unless it is the environment

hands down - Sanders

[Agnosticsherbet]

35. Reread my post. I mention numerous issues.

Critical issues to me are Race, and Women's rights, and guns.
Guns are a priority issue, but by no means the only one.
Economic policy comes fourth to the above items.

When I learned of his votes, I realized I had made my decision way to early.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

40. more?

where would you like to see her move to the left?

[Agnosticsherbet]

45. Haven't disucussed Clinton here. I posted me reasons for not Supporting Sanders in the primary.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

49. still - the question remains

are there any issues that you would like her to move toward the left on

[Agnosticsherbet]

86. I think her foreign diplomacy is too hawkish.

A no fly zone with Russia involved, Syria flying, Saudi Arabia flying, Jordan flying, and Turkey flying, and other NATO countries is impossible to control. Since ISIL has no air power I can't see what it does other than piss off the Russians. I served on carriers enforcing the No Fly zone over Iraq. We could do that because there was a limited number of people involved. I think disengagement with everything is irresponsible. I suspect Clinton or Sanders will walk a fine line pretty near what Obama has done.

I think her call to pass new legislation to control banks that never fell under glass-steagall is right on. It would be a perfect match with glass-steagall, if that law could be brought back. (She would have the same problem that Sanders would have, zero control over the legislative agenda. I question any Democratic administration will do any more than President Obama has done. There are limits to what can be done with executive actions.)

I think he stand on women an minorities is good.

O'Malley has better ideas about gun control she could continue to move left on that issue.

[JDPriestly]

64. What strategy do you think we should use to take the House and the Senate back?

[Agnosticsherbet]

85. In the US House, elect state governors and state congresses.

So that in 2020 we can redraw the districts so they are not designed to elect Republicans. We need to take at least 10 states. We have the 2016 and 2018 races to do this.

In the Senate and the House, if the candidate is a Democrat vote for him/her. Even if the candidate doesn't match the values of the voter, a Democrat will fill a seat and count towards a majority.

We have to have a majority to get power, and in a lot of states a liberal Democrat simply won't win. Out new Democratic governor in Louisiana is 100% pro life. That would exclude him from people who only will vote for a candidate that exactly matches their values. He certainly doesn't match mine.

I know this goes against the grain for some, but control is determined by simple majority.

If we don't have the power in Congress, we will not control the legislative agenda. If we control the Legislative agenda, then we can fight to get some good legislation passed.

[JDPriestly]

87. What issue stances do you think cause voters to prefer Democrats and get Democratic

voters to the polls?

[Agnosticsherbet]

90. For state governments, it will depend on the state. All politics is local.

The US House works as a state government because they are elected from state districts. I think far more important than issues is how a candidate is known in his home district.

Higher minimum wage will work in urban districts but will not be important at all in rural districts.
An agricultural district is going to look favorably on candidates who work to make the lives of farmers and ranchers easier.
Opposition to the Republican drive to roll back marriage equality appeals to the broad electorate, but there are state districts where this will never appeal.

In general, I think policies that provide greater equality for minorities and women will appeal to the broad Democratic electorate.
Polices that support unions.
This will not likely be true in the South and areas of the West.

[JDPriestly]

116. I'm in California. I think that greater equality for minorities and women is important here in

Democratic districts. Economic inequality is extremely important here.

Housing costs are very high. Much too high for wages even for good wages. Education costs are also a problem.

We in Los Angeles have already determined to gradually raise the minimum wage in our city to $15.00 per hour. That will become a reality according to an established schedule of incremental wage hikes.

Immigration is a very big issue here.

We are way ahead of the rest of much of the country in terms of equal rights for LGBTs (not waying a whole lot, acceptance of racial and ethnic intermarriage and similar issues.

But we have a lot of problems with police brutality and with the prison-industrial complex and simply having too many of our citizens in prisons and jails.

We need much, much better public transportation.

In addition, our public schools should have lower numbers of students per class, and state colleges and universities need to offer free tuition. We used to have free or close-to-free tuition in our state schools. We need that now. We have a lot of bright kids from poor families and the disappearing middle class who need education. It is not fair that our brightest young people are paying interest on student loans that indirectly but definitely is used as a sort of federal income. It's as if we are imposing on our young people the burden of some of the tax cuts we have awarded to the very richest among us. Why we impose that burden on our young college graduates is a mystery to me. They should be the motor of our economy. Many of them are loaded down with debt and barely make their rent and maybe the day care bills for their little ones.

Our state will hurt if we don't change that. That's true for a lot of states, but that truth is ignored in most states. We need a federal program to promote debt-free education at least free tuition for our students, young and old, in state schools including technical schools.

We also need Wall Street reform that including in the commodity markets -- all the markets.

I personally want the trade agreements to end. They are good for a lot of the biggest businesses in our state, but bad for the jobs market.

[uponit7771]

98. Not... it would take an average of 15% more dem votes EVERYWHERE to take the house back...

... elections have consequences and we're were screwed in 2010 with this historically gerrymandered GOP congress

[Bluenorthwest]

136. And yet that is not entirely true. Each district has voters who do not vote. Get them voting and you

change the paradigm in many of those districts. Even Florida 2000, discussed endlessly, few come up with the fact that far more eligible voters did not vote than the number of votes that decided the election. SCOTUS, chads, Jeb and Katherine, Nader, none of that would have mattered with a few hundred more of those eligible to vote actually voting.

We leave votes on the table. That's a mistake.

[uponit7771]

138. There's not a 2 - 3% margin ON AVG in the US with the gerrymandered house districts...

.. that's why it's gerrymandered, these places aren't purple.

They draw the lines even around subdivisions and partitions...

You can maybe switch 10%... but a 70% (what LBJ had) and 80% (what FDR had) avg congress is what is needed to pass a true left agenda.

2010 elections really hurt this country bad

[Sancho]

31. Both...

The more I've investigated, the less I like Bernie's personally or his agenda.

To me, an "economic" agenda cannot be progressive - at the least it's misguided.

Even if Hillary were not running, I would prefer O'Malley or Biden over Bernie.

None of that speaks to qualifications, but only to your question: Bernie or his agenda?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

33. many thanks ... more?

Are there any issues that you would like she to take a more left view of?

[stillwaiting]

41. You don't believe an economic agenda can be progressive?!?!

Large majorities of Americans support progressive economic issues on single issue-based polling.

If we ever elect truly progressive politicians, OF COURSE they'll be able to implement these policies, and the American people would overwhelmingly approve and support them.

Why is it misguided?

Things are just going to keep getting worse for most and better for the financial elite UNTIL progressive economic policies are implemented.

[Sancho]

68. No, I don't believe that economics alone can ever be progressive...

at least not in the way that Bernie's agenda describes it.

He misses most of the social justice that I believe in, and he always has missed it. I've listened to Bernie for years on Thom Hartman. I understand what he proposes.

I simply think it misses the boat in my experience.

The reason for inequality in money has been described - and it's an international phenomena that is not due exclusively to some "bad guys". This is one of the best explanations:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Economics-Inequality-Thomas-Piketty/dp/1511336579
There may be ways for governments to work together to turn around the issue of wealth inequality, but Bernie has not proposed his version of those proposals.

Meanwhile, financial crooks have been around for a long time - and breaking up banks or tearing down Wall Street won't magically cure the world of crooks. There are lots of regulatory proposals out there - Bernie's is Glass-Stegall; but none of those proposals would change life for the 99%.

I think that 30 million people in the US need to be called citizens. I think that economic equality for women, minorities, and another other demographic group won't happen because of a minimum wage. There is no "economic" solution that applies unless someone is documented. There are numerous examples, but I could care less about economics unless many other issues were addressed first. At best, economic "justice" (equality? fairness) is a subset of social justice.

Bernie often proposes solutions (his agenda) that cause more injustice while trying to fix some perceived economic issue. I don't consider it progressive in those cases. His Robin Hood tax is one example.

Bernie is what he says he is - a Democratic socialist focused on an economic system. I don't think that defines "progressive" or "liberal" for me.

[stillwaiting]

70. Bernie's solutions cause MORE injustice? What a bizarre perspective.

Certainly that's not true for me or my political allies.

[Sancho]

73. yep...

if you look into it, there are plenty of examples.

I'll give you one that my union analyzed. Bernie proposes a Robin Hood tax (FTT- financial transaction tax) to pay for college tuition.

There are numerous issues. Almost all public employees (teacher, state employees) and many union members are dependent on retirement funds that are large investment pools run by state government offices. Any tax on that money must either reduce benefits or cost hard-working employees more money.

Meanwhile, there's no way in Bernie's plan to keep states (who set tuition at public colleges) from simply skimming the extra money, continuing to admit the rich and white to the premiere universities, and passing on the tuition money in an inequitable system. There's nothing in that system that guarantees tuition equity or even admission to a child brought here illegally at 2 years old (undocumented) even if that person grew up in the US and went to public schools! Even applying might get their parents deported!

If you look at all of Bernie's proposals, many do not carefully consider social justice. He may tack on something now during the campaign, but it has never been part of his agenda in the past.

[Empowerer]

97. Excellent post

Thanks for taking the time to lay out your views on this - very interesting.

[uponit7771]

100. +1, I too have started to look at economic as a subset of social. If I were rich and still shot by..

... the cops cause I'm black being or established middle class didn't help

[Eric J in MN]

34. The liberal website Talking Points Memo

...ran an online poll of its readers.

On the question of "Whom will you vote for?," Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders were tied.

On the question of "Which candidate's positions are closer to yours?," Bernie Sanders was chosen in a landslide.

I guess that a lot of TPM readers consider Hillary Clinton more likely to win a general election, and therefore plan to vote for her in the primary despite agreeing with Bernie Sanders' positions.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

37. If true...

How can we get the Hillary supporters to help push her more to the left?

[stillwaiting]

42. Hillary will not be pushed left. Both Bill and Hillary fully understand what they have done to

the Democratic Party, and they show no signs of wanting to reverse course.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

59. so - how can that be changed

it is up to her supporter to do that work

[SheilaT]

36. A lot of her supporters seem

quite distressed that someone is putting stumbling blocks on the road to her coronation. What I mostly see from her supporters is something along the lines of "She's the MOST experienced candidate out there, what with having been FLOTUS, a one and a half term Senator, and Secretary of State." They somehow think those things will make her uniquely qualified to deal with Congress, as if Bernie Sanders had merely been Mayor of Burlington back in the 70's and has done nothing else since then.

Or, they slam Bernie for having been an independent all those years, and think he won't possibly be able to get anything done with Congress if he's elected. They don't notice that he has supported things like LGBT rights for decades, supported civil rights even longer, voted against the war in Iraq. They do get huffy that he voted to fund our troops there, which shows he understands the practical realities of a stupid war.

But what mostly comes across is they don't want anything to interfere with her coronation.

Back when Jeb! was the presumed Republican front runner, and Bernie hadn't yet entered the race, here was a lot of talk here about how awful it would be if the general election came down to the choice between another Bush or another Clinton. With Jeb! all but officially out, that particular conversation has died, although I personally think another Clinton is not a very good idea.

[randome]

38. I doubt many are against Sanders. Some are.

It doesn't really matter, though, because Clinton has the poll numbers and the endorsements and she's a Democrat. Sanders is an Independent running as a Democrat, which means he doesn't have the cross-country support he needs.

If many of us are against something related to Sanders, it's being against his supporters substituting wishful thinking for reality. Sure, it would be nice to elect a transformational President in November. But it's not likely to happen.

Regardless of who the nominee is, we need to pledge to move him or her in the direction we want.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[SoLeftIAmRight]

43. so my question is...

How do we push Hillary more to the left - and on what issues?

[randome]

72. More sustained and LOUD protests, perhaps?

If we let any President 'get away' with making decisions for us, then nothing of substance gets done. We quit the Vietnam War because the protests were numerous and sustained.

As for what issues, I don't think Citizens United is going to be easy to overturn. I'd be more inclined to press for cop cameras and racial justice reform.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[JoePhilly]

44. Neither.

[tularetom]

47. They don't care about Bernie OR his agenda or anything else

All they know is they want Hillary Clinton to be president. Many of them have no clue what she actually stands for or believes in (it is awfully difficult at times to understand what that is), it's her turn goddamnit!

[truedelphi]

76. I think that it is more than that. Many of them are like Hillary - they

Came just a bit shy of the really really rich when growing up.

And growing up, their homes were filled to the brim with progressive attitudes of JFK and LBJ, but as they grew older, they inherited their parents' businesses, and they started in with programs wherein workers were not paid that well.

And the moment they got bored with what they inherited, they filed for bankruptcy. That meant the workers' pension plans were raided to pay the bills, but HEY! -- it also meant they floated out with golden parachutes.

[okasha]

95. ......

Yeah. Just hordes of African Americans, Hispanics an First Americans grew up just short of the "really, really," rich.

Jayzus. Put those little sigar cubes down.

[truedelphi]

137. Visit suburbia sometimes.

If you don't think that there are people as I described, then I don't know what to tell you.

And if African Americans fail to understand how the Democrats pulled the rug out from under them, I blame the school system and news media.

And if Hispanics in the state of Calif understood the reality of the recent 2010 era "re-location" of about one half to one million immigrants, arranged by both Obama and Schwartzennegger, they might not be so quick to approve of him.

[okasha]

141. Sure, I know there are plenty

of almost-rich folks in suburbia. But the Democratic base--women, African Americans, Hispanics, lgbt--tend to concentrate in the inner city and middle class neighborhoods. The reason it's called the base is that Dems can't win without it and it's our electoral stronghold.

The suburbia you're talking about runs Republican and Libertarian.

Otherwise, you're just whitesplainin' to us POC. Save your keystrokes.

[bvf]

51. Given that a post in the HRC group

needs recs by six members on time-out to get 22 recs in total, I think the answer is pretty clear.

[brooklynite]

52. Honestly - I have no problem with any of his policies...

I worry that he won't get elected to implement them.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

56. What I want is for people to make it clear to Hillary that it is past time for a move back to the le

AND SUPPORT HER IN THAT POSITION

[Ed Suspicious]

65. Better to not try than to not succeed.

[brooklynite]

67. ...if you're willing to accept the risk of failure.

I can survive a Republican Administration; can you?

[truedelphi]

78. This attitude always brings to mind thatsig nificant conversaion in the Classic:

"They Thought They Were Free."

IN that conversation, the German "hero" figure who had saved at least one hundred Jewish people stated that it indeed was his fault that the Nazi Party/Third Reich did as they did.

"But surely you don't mean that?" What could you have done?" said the author.

"By myself, nothing. But the fact remains that when I was asked to take the Loyalty Oath to the Third Reich I assumed that no one would join me if I didn't take it.

"When in actuality if everyone who felt as I did had refused,we would have saved the country."

So I guess I will give you a pass, because you probably don't realize what is really happening. You don't get that the police are under martial law, that the economy sucks for those who don't have anything, that the food is being destroyed. You have just enough to not be told by police that they will "shoot you!" if stopped for going 57 in a 55mph zone.

When you open a bank account, you won't be arrested for embezzling and forgery due to suspicions about the check you used to open the account. (As I almost had happen to me.)

You have a new enough car, nice enough clothes, a credit history that protects you. Give up any one of those things and you might realize it is absolutely friggin' essential we get rid of the Corporatists and their endless war, the martial law we live under, their support for food-destroyer Monsanto, etc.

Live the life I have lived from 2008 to 2011 and your whole idea of what it is to live inside this shit hole of a country would have you realizing that if we don't get a Sanders in office, we might as well go down with Trump, because really and truly, what Hillary represents is almost as bad.

[brooklynite]

81. "we might as well go down with Trump"....."what Hillary represents is almost as bad"

You really want to go with that opinion?

[Fawke Em]

106. I would.

What the GOP represents is a quick death spiral.

What Clinton represents is still death - but slower, like by a thousand cuts.

Yes. She's socially more liberal than anyone on the right, but I really haven't seen much evidence that she's all that different on foreign and economic policies.

[liberal N proud]

58. I vote for Democrats

Bernie wasn't until he needed to be something to run for President.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

62. your name - Liberal N Proud

Is she as far to the left as you would like ? If not - how can we push her that way?

[Dem2]

69. The only criticism I see as reasonable

is noting that a seeming majority of (exclusive) Bernie supporters (I support Bernie's agenda) appear to feel somewhat justified in insulting the intelligence of anybody who would support that *liar *corporatist *3rdwayer *shrill *insert your adjective here Hillary Clinton.

This attitude is not helpful.

[uponit7771]

102. Its been expressed over and over that there's no need to take a chance on someone as idealogical

... as Sanders when there's no FDR congress to help him out...

Obama had help for 59 days, after that it was a route on his agenda

The US congress is historically gerrymandered, he's not going to be doing crap when he gets into office until his second term in office.... maybe.

[OilemFirchen]

75. In response to your Tourettes-like question peppered throughout this thread:

How do we push Bernie more to the right - and on what issues?

[Fumesucker]

88. Yep, if there are any ideas that don't get aired in American politics they are those on the right

We definitely need to hear more of those right ideas given the way the establishment and the liberal media stay so silent about them.

[OilemFirchen]

92. ... and a non-sequitor from the Peanut Gallery.

Hey! You guys way in the back! Where ya from?

[Ken Burch]

77. I think they're against the idea that the grassroots should have any real say in how the party

OR the country is run. They see themselves as "the grown-ups", and everyone else as children who should be seen and not heard.

[Douglas Carpenter]

82. Children who send in their money and turn up on election day - but keep their

mouths shut and their opinions to themselves

[napi21]

79. I honestly don't think they are against Bernie, but they were sooo disappointed when

Obama won last time, they are hell bent not to let that happen to her AGAIN! Even some of my friends who like Obama are very determined to get her elected THIS TIME.

[Hekate]

80. Honest response: His online supporters, who are an embarrassment.

You're welcome.

[rbrnmw]

83. Neither I just like Hillary Clinton in the primaries

I will vote for Bernie should he happen to win the nomination

[99Forever]

89. It's anything or anyone who stands in the way of The Coronation.

It's her turn, dammit.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. I think the motivations of Bernie supporters and Hillary supporters are fundamentally different

In many cases.

That's not to say one is right or wrong, although obviously I'm in the Sanders camp.

I think Sanders people are more focused on specific issues and a direction they want the party and nation to take. Hillary people seem, oftentimes, more focused on who she is or what she represents to them.

Or perhaps they believe she is more electable or a more seasoned politician.

I dont always get the feeling that the Hillary people are going down a straight list of issues - specific policy proposals - and picking HRC's stated positions - if she has made them- over Sanders's. Maybe some are, but it seems to often be about something else.

[uponit7771]

93. Honestly, I think hes not being open about the reason why has has not outlined how he's...

... practically going to get his agenda past this historically gerrymandered GOP congress is because he knows its damn near impossible.

If he admits that then all the crap that was talked about the current "status quo" starts to sound petulant vs progressive

All the rest of it is noise...

M2S

[baldguy]

99. It's not Bernie or his agenda. It's his ability to succeed.

America and the world can't afford to have another Republican President. Ever. Hilliary is the best chance to prevent that from happening this round.

And if you pretend or are deluded enough, or are just plain stupid enough to say the there's no difference between Hillary and the GOP - well, fuck you. That shit just helps the Republicans, and makes everything you claim to desire from President Bernie just that much more difficult to achieve.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

128. I quote you "well, fuck you" - I will not alert on this but I will ask...

Are there any issues the she is too far to the right for your taste?

If so, what is the best way to move her to the left?

And not just her - the whole damn thing.

I also will vote for the lesser evil if that is the choice - but sometimes I think - we might have to let the right crash the whole thing before the stupid can be exorcised

[baldguy]

131. Do you want to know how to move Hillary - and the party and the country - to the left?

Make sure that the Republicans never get a chance to be in power ever again. Make sure there's a permanent Democratic majority in Congress. And in the statehouses. And in the governorships.

In short, moving the country and the party requires a lot of hard work and dedication to the party.

The party won't move to the left by breaking it's legs and taking away it's support. Pretending a vote for a Democrat is a "lesser evil" does exactly that. You do the GOPs work for them.

[Fawke Em]

101. They're against Bernie for one of three reasons:

1. He doesn't have a vagina. Some of her supporters only want a female president. Period. Her positions, her scandals and her proposals are insignificant.
2. They're "comfortable." They don't want a change in the status quo because that might overturn their own applecarts.
3. They're a long-established member of the DNC and only believe those who have played the "party politics" game should be allowed into the inner sanctum.

I see a lot of 2 and 3 on this board. There's probably a lot of those who fall into the first camp, but they can couch their "vagina support" easily as something else, so it's harder to tell them apart (although, I have my suspicions based on some of the other things they say).

[uponit7771]

105. Or don't see Bernie expressing how he's going to get past a historically gerrymandered congress...

... with such an ideological agenda.

Revolution, coat tails, unicorns, "the people" aren't explanations...

He can promise what he wants but facts are facts; the gop doesn't work for the people who voted for them be damned if they work WITH the people who don't.

If congress was gerrymandered towards dems to the degree it is for conservatives... different game all together...

I don't even think Hillary would be running ..

[Fawke Em]

113. But, he has actually figured out ways to get what he wants out of them.

Not only has Sanders gotten a lot more things done than Clinton did in her own short legislative career, he's actually one of the most effective members of Congress, passing bills, both big and small, that have reshaped American policy on key issues like poverty, the environment and health care.

SNIP

Sanders did something particularly original, which was that he passed amendments that were exclusively progressive, advancing goals such as reducing poverty and helping the environment, and he was able to get bipartisan coalitions of Republicans who wanted to shrink government or hold it accountable and progressives who wanted to use it to empower Americans.

Here are a few examples of the amendments Sanders passed by building unusual but effective coalitions:

* Corporate Crime Accountability (February 1995): A Sanders amendment to the Victims Justice Act of 1995 required “offenders who are convicted of fraud and other white-collar crimes to give notice to victims and other persons in cases where there are multiple victims eligible to receive restitution.”

* Saving Money, for Colleges and Taxpayers (April 1998): In an amendment to H.R. 6, the Higher Education Amendments of 1998, Sanders made a change to the law that allowed the Fund for the Improvement of Postsecondary Education to make competitive grants available to colleges and universities that cooperated to reduce costs through joint purchases of goods and services.

* Holding IRS Accountable, Protecting Pensions (July 2002): Sanders' amendment to the Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act of 2003 stopped the IRS from being able to use funds that “violate current pension age discrimination laws.” Although he faced stiff GOP opposition, his amendment still succeeded along a 308 to 121 vote.

... and lots more:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you

[uponit7771]

115. There are no coalitions to be built with this historically gerrymandered GOP congress, anyone who...

... thinks these people work for those who voted for them and will work WITH those who didn't aren't even paying half way attention to the last 6 yrs of legislation in this country.

The spent 24 billion shutting the freakin government down!!!

If Sanders said he'd put all the GOP congress persons in jail the second he got into office and proffered a plan to do so I'd be all in...

No doubt

[bowens43]

123. for many hillary supporters, nothing to do with agendas, it's just pay back for 2008

unfortunately for them this will be a repeat.

[senz]

124. They're against anyone who gets between her and what she wants.

If Bernie weren't doing so well, they wouldn't mind him at all.

[Sniffles72]

126. I prefer hillary

Bernie is too much for me and i believe in women rights

[raouldukelives]

132. It isn't anti-Bernie as much as it is anti-Wall St.

If he would just pledge to continue whatever endgame it is they have planned for all of us, I'm sure they would welcome him with open arms. More socialism for corporate investors, more war, more prisons, more militarized police, more attacks on the least and more thumbing ones nose at scientific realities.

[reddread]

133. Neither. they hate his supporters

understandably. size matters.

[kenfrequed]

134. I support Bernie

But I don't think that Hillary support fits into one neat box.

Some of the people that do so here are your conservative democrats whose opinions I have always questioned. They are against Bernie's agenda.

Some are people that have supported Hillary in the past for whatever reason (there are more than a few) and choose to do so now regardless of positions.

Some believe themselves pragmatists (though I would argue that point) and think she is the only one that can win...

[Zorra]

135. Hillary is far more glamorous than Bernie, for one thing.

Everything doesn't have to be based on common sense, reason, and fact, ya know? Lighten up! It's only the future of our children, democracy, and the survival of the planet at stake here.

And many who know he is the best candidate feel that Bernie can't win because they believe he can't win won't vote for him because they think he can't win. So they won't vote for him.

See how that works?

[MineralMan]

142. Neither. Instead, they're FOR Clinton.

The reasons for that vary.