2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Sanders' Plan to Fight Mass Incarceration Doesn't Add Up
But, as racial justice activist Deray McKesson pointed out in response, Sanders' promise raises a serious question: Is that even possible, considering that the vast majority of the nation's inmates are held in state not federal prisons?
The Sanders campaign did not respond to multiple requests for an explanation, but the short answer is that the Democratic candidate couldn't realistically fulfill his promise. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, about 2.2 million Americans were locked up as of the end of 2013. Of those, only 215,000 inmates (9.6 percent) were in federal prisons. The rest were in state and local facilities. So even if President Sanders abolished federal prisons altogether, the United States would still have more prisoners than any other country by a pretty large margin. China, which is number two in the world, has 1.7 million prisoners. To edge below China, Sanders would need to cut the national prison population by about 25 percent, with most of that coming from places that are outside federal jurisdiction.
http://m.motherjones.com/mojo/2016/01/bernie-sanders-plan-fight-mass-incarceration-doesnt-add-up
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Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)cannot dictate criminal justice policy to the states. It can reccomend, it can use financial incentives, but generally it is limited to leading by example. One obvious way would be federal drug policy.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)Better to swim downstream and take campaign donations from the for-profit-prison industry. THAT will fix everything.
Which of these is a bad idea?
From the article:
"We need to ban prisons for profit, which result in an over-incentive to arrest, jail and detain in order to keep prison beds full.
We need to turn back from the failed "War on Drugs" and eliminate mandatory minimums which result in sentencing disparities between black and white people.
We need to take marijuana off the federal government's list of outlawed drugs.
We need to allow people in states which legalize marijuana to be able to fully participate in the banking system and not be subject to federal prosecution for using pot.
We need to invest in drug courts and medical and mental health interventions for people with substance abuse problems, so that they do not end up in prison, they end up in treatment.
We need to boost investments for programs that help people who have gone to jail rebuild their lives with education and job training.
We must investigate local governments that are using implicit or explicit quotas for arrests or stops.
We must stop local governments that are relying on fines, fees or asset forfeitures as a steady source of revenue.
Police departments must investigate all allegations of wrongdoing, especially those involving the use of force, and prosecute aggressively, if necessary. If departments are unwilling or unable to conduct such investigations, the Department of Justice must step in and handle it for them."
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)The argument is that Bernie is over-promising what can reasonably be accomplished
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Though I would say it's more the deception of Sanders plan being highlighted than over-promising.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)What kind of person would complain about Bernie wanting fewer people put in prison? Good for Bernie. Damn good.
That's the kind of leadership our country has been lacking.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Bernie wants less people put in prison. That seems like a worthy goal which no good people would ever complain about.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)What kind of thinking is it that would lead one to post such complaints? A proper title for such a thread here on DU would be something like:
Bernie is fighting to stop the US from leading the world in mass incarcerations. Go Bernie!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Are you now saying you are proud of Bill and his sexual escapades in office? Meanwhile complaining the Bernie wants less people in prison?
WOW!!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)All I see around here is that he's going to fix every wrong in a flash. I don't know which to believe anymore.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Because no one has claimed he is the know all cure all. You need to listen to what Senator Sanders says. Because HRC supporters here are making crap up.
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)Because they really do say what I said above while at the same time playing Hillary as the root of all evil.
But hey, I've been told I'm not a real liberal by those same supporters, so I don't really know anything anymore.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)because he is not making the promises people are saying that he is making. Oh and I would include what HRC supporters are saying Sanders is saying too. It wasn't a Sander's supporter that started this thread, now was it?
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)"I promise at the end of my first term we won't have more people in jail than in any other country."
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)He doesn't promise that it will be fixed overnight or even soon. So why you folks say he is making promises he can't keep stymies me. Do you really think HRC is gonna be able to keep her promises? I don't think she'll even try because what she is doing now is nothing more than paying lip service and telling you all what she thinks you want to hear.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)That by the end of the first term, the US will no longer have the highest incarceration rate.
The article goes on to explain how that's damn near impossible and how Bernie's proposals won't even come close to accomplishing that.
As to whether Hillary is going to keep her promises, I don't think any politician in the History of our country has kept all of their campaign promises, but Hillary isn't the issue here.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)It's not important if HRC keeps her promises but it's a big deal if Sanders is unable to?
The article asks the question and I suspect the author is just as you and I, not an expert and does not in fact know whether any promises made- can be kept or not. IOWs, it's opinion, not fact.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Politicians do it all the time. I do think that folks that believe that Bernie walks on water should acknowledge that this particular campaign promise is nonsense.
I think the issue as to whether this particular promise can be kept is a matter of common sense. It's clear that it cannot, I don't even see anyone in this thread arguing hat point.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Everyone is entitled to their opinion which is what the article the OP posted is.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)explain to me how making the United States no longer number one in incaceration is something the President can accomplish in 4 years.
Or, just admit he exaggerated and move on.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Withholding federal funds from the states who refuse to get with the program is one huge way to accomplish lowering incarceration rates.
For example, currently if states want federal money for roads the government requires them to have strict drunk driving laws. How many states are you aware of that have lax drunk driving laws?
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)to figure out why Bernie's promise is nonsense. Read the article.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)see ya.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)It's defining what he will works towards as President.
"Over-promising what can reasonably be accomplished."
The cynic in me thinks that could have been Obama's campaign slogan. His time in office shows how a Republican controlled Congress prevents anything from reasonably being accomplished - whether your name is Obama, Sanders on Clinton.
The argument is what will you fight for - what does accomplishment look like for each candidate ?
You're right, those aren't bad ideas. Striving for less, i.e., expanding for-profit prisons, IS a bad idea.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)"I promise at the end of my first term we won't have more people in jail than in any other country."
He's saying, quite unequivocally, that he can do this in 4 years. This is damn near impossible, even if you filled Congress with DUers.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)"Here's your winnings sir, a 4 percent wealth surcharge tax on the extremely rich."
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Bernie included
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)making almost those exact same arguments on DU.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)He won't support the corporate prisons or the incarceration of individuals for slave labor.
Unlike Clinton, he doesn't have tons of corporate hacks writing plans.
Most Americans are unaware of the prison industrial complex. Once they become aware of it there will be changes. Bernie will expose the truth unlike the Corporate Owned Politicians.
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)The end product won't be what he's currently selling?
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Which are impossible by any reasonable measure
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)at the Federal level abolish the 13th that allows prison slavery. Corps love those 20 cents an hour workers.
Make Corps pay prison workers the federal minimum and there will be less incentive for some states to jail people for decades. Plus prison workers will be able to send money to their families and help support them, support helps 'raise-up' local communities.
I believe all our candidates and President Obama try to do this type of 'prison reform', the chains are thick and have so many 'legal' roots.
America is in a quagmire caused by the 'for profit' Prison Industry, this has gone on for 100 years, we never freed all the slaves.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)well as recidivism. Does it add up? I don't know. Based on my quick search for simple numbers, it looks tough to get a handle on what effects these ideas might have precisely, but I don't really care. I just want us making a drastic shift toward a more free, less punitive society. Bernie gets us there. Nobody else is going to do better. Period.
We need to ban prisons for profit, which result in an over-incentive to arrest, jail and detain in order to keep prison beds full.
We need to turn back from the failed "War on Drugs" and eliminate mandatory minimums which result in sentencing disparities between black and white people.
We need to take marijuana off the federal government's list of outlawed drugs.
We need to allow people in states which legalize marijuana to be able to fully participate in the banking system and not be subject to federal prosecution for using pot.
We need to invest in drug courts and medical and mental health interventions for people with substance abuse problems, so that they do not end up in prison, they end up in treatment.
We need to boost investments for programs that help people who have gone to jail rebuild their lives with education and job training.
We must investigate local governments that are using implicit or explicit quotas for arrests or stops.
We must stop local governments that are relying on fines, fees or asset forfeitures as a steady source of revenue.
Police departments must investigate all allegations of wrongdoing, especially those involving the use of force, and prosecute aggressively, if necessary. If departments are unwilling or unable to conduct such investigations, the Department of Justice must step in and handle it for them.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)NT
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Seems they don't care to reduce their population...it's job security.
That being said, Obama didn't end LGBT discrimination either. But he used the Bully Pulpit in doing what he can. Like saying he could erase racism being a Black President, but he was and is an effective message.
This all or nothing dyad is tiresome. Kind of like riding a bicycle...it takes a few tries plus the COMMITMENT to keep working on it.
And yes, kids in the ghetto are getting busted, ostensibly, for drugs. But it's also well known, that if a cop needs a collar...well, the closest black kid comes in handy.
So, we continue to pretend like its not happening and just go our merry way...those of us not in prison, that is.
Just another anti-Bernie meme, now that he really is electable. Better jump on something...that being racial parity in the court system...State or Federal. Silly guy...thinks he can do something once he's President.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)of reducing the prison population is not what Bernie said he would do, he set a very specific goal. The goal he set is not attainable by any reasonable measure.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)And have you ever heard anyone else address the issue lately? And take all the pot users out of prison, lay off some guards and police, arrest real criminals and there is plenty of room, the country is safer and more mellos...and it's easy and politically proper.
Goals. No one seems to know what those are. Intent. Commitment. A bit higher than possible, but not so low as to curl up in a ball...which seems to be the default.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Creative ways of making progress toward the goal of reducing the prison population of course is a good thing, and an area for healthy debate. No one here is arguing about whether we should be doing that.
The point here is that Bernie stated that a very specific goal is possible. A cursory glance at the facts reveals that his stated goal is not possible.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)read it again.
I say I want to buy a house. I don't have a lot of money. The bank tells me, with a cursory glance, that I can't. So do I live in my tent, or begin to set goals. Goals. That's not soccer...it Life. No one ever achieved ANYTHNG without first seeing it in the mind's eye...which is before it is in concrete form. It's a law of the Universe...argue with him/her.
I don't know which statement you are talking about, but yes, we can easily reduce the prison population with two words...legalize pot and shop arresting users, especially in the ghetto. What problem, other than perhaps some semantical disagreement, do you have about that.
Or is it just...since he is now electable...that he is incapable.
Naysayers and critics are a dime a thousand...we learn that in motivational seminars. Visionaries make the world go round.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)"I promise at the end of my first term we won't have more people in jail than in any other country."
It's from a tweet that linked in the article. The article goes on the describe why it would be impossible to accomplish that.
Again this is not about taking steps toward reducing the prison population. This is about a specific goal that Bernie said he would accomplish in 4 years. His stated goal is not possible, it's a clear exaggeration.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Seems to me if we listened to Bernie Sanders- instead of people like Debbie Wasserman Schultz who have no problem sticking cancer patients in prison cells for marijuana use- we would at least reduce those numbers a bit.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)what Bernie said he would do.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)This is a pretty silly line of argument you guys are trying to follow, here.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)My argument is that what Bernie has explicitly promised is impossible. I have yet to see anyone in this thread argue that it is, in fact, possible.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Not very, say pretty much everyone who actually understands math.
Doesn't stop her from demanding a "Manhattan Project" to make sure no one can encrypt their snapchats.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151220/08101633141/hillary-clinton-wants-manhattan-project-encryption-not-back-door-that-makes-no-sense.shtml
pugetres
(507 posts)But, it would take the assistance of Congress.
The federal govt can levy taxes against/withhold funds to states who do not meet certain criteria.
There is No federal law that mandates a minimum drinking age of 21. That is left to each State. But, the States were incentivized to raise their minimum drinking ages to 21 when the feds withheld portions of federal highway funds from states that didn't raise their drinking ages to 21.
Most states pay for all their corrections costs out of their general funds but there is some federal funding in play. Not sure what other tack the federal govt could use beyond Corrections funding but I'm sure there are other ways to create an incentive.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Also "let's just smoke, listen to music and laugh a lot" marijuana!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Hopefully no matter who we send up as the nominee, we'll have saner heads prevail on mj policy, and not recalcitrant drug war apologists like DWS.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Hard to believe we weren't the first state...
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Still, I remember prop 215 (and Dan Lundgren, that crusty uptight turd) and was living down there at the time.
It's arguable that that was the first real crack in the prohibtion dam.
oregon, of course, was the first state to deciminalize, back in 1973.