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BlueIris

(29,135 posts)
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 10:40 PM Apr 2012

A weight acceptance site I've been meaning to share with you all.

Big Liberty is a great blog I discovered this winter. It is a thorough, organized place promoting weight acceptance, although the author herself seems to prefer the term fat acceptance.

For those new to this site, I recommend starting at this link:

http://bigliberty.net/truth-behind-fat-links-science/

It's a collection of articles that go right for the anti-acceptance jugular. Most of them contradict the biggest myths and misconceptions about obesity still popular in mainstream media. These links really changed my perspective about this topic.

Big Liberty is by no means the only website trying to raise awareness about the unique challenges faced by overweight patients, especially with regard to health and combating prejudice, but it's my favorite of the WA/FA sites I've looked at.

The author is...blunt. And funny. She has a distinctive style, and is truly passionate about the cause. The site also links to many others in the FA movement.

I confess, I have not always been very compassionate toward the overweight or obese. Educating myself about both obesity and weight prejudice has become a self-improvement project for me. Finding the Big Liberty site provided me with a lot of new information about weight, health and why eliminating size-based bigotry and discrimination is of vital importance. (Many of the entires on Big Liberty made me cry; this society is absolutely cruel toward overweight people, especially those who are women.)

I'm not sure whether or not the author would consider herself a feminist. I've read almost all the entries and can't recall if she ever chose to self-identify that way.* But I think weight acceptance should be a part of the feminist movement, because of the disproportionate amount of weight bigotry directed at women, as evidenced by the fact that the bulk of all weight loss products, dieting strategies and medical treatments for obesity are targeting female consumers.

*The author does identify as a libertarian and an anarchist. Note to moderators and alerters: my post here is in no way an attempt to support the libertarians, any non-Democratic candidates for office, or anarchy.

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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A weight acceptance site I've been meaning to share with you all. (Original Post) BlueIris Apr 2012 OP
Other links I recommend on this site include: BlueIris Apr 2012 #1
As someone who was formerly super-morbidly obese (and who is still obese)... Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #2
Are you also addicted to oxygen and water? eridani Apr 2012 #3
Uh, not everybody consuming an "admittedly unhealthy diet" is a food addict? Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #10
The term "food addict" is meaningless bullshit eridani Apr 2012 #14
Is that your gut instinct, redqueen Apr 2012 #15
Defining terminology has nothing to do with empirical experimental results. eridani Apr 2012 #24
There's no evidence that bullying initiates the same physical changes in the brain redqueen Apr 2012 #26
Notice that the condition is called "compulsive eating" and NOT "food addiction" n/t eridani Apr 2012 #29
Not quite. redqueen Apr 2012 #30
A compulsion is not an addiction, period eridani Apr 2012 #32
I'm glad you made this point iverglas Apr 2012 #35
I'm sorry, but from personal experience I really have to disagree with you. Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #20
Sorry--every single dysfunctional behavior is NOT an addiction eridani Apr 2012 #22
well hm iverglas Apr 2012 #9
The only thing you are to "blame" for is choosing having a life over-- eridani Apr 2012 #13
"99.9% of all overweight people have only themselves and what they eat to blame..." BlueIris Apr 2012 #16
Now hold on just a minute.... Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #25
"I do agree up to a point that metabolism may play a role in all of this, redqueen Apr 2012 #27
I'm merely relaying the results of decades of research... Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #28
Your experiences are not relevant to those who eat healthier and remain fat, period eridani Apr 2012 #31
If you know of a person who eats ONLY starches, vegetables and fruits with NO... Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #33
Thank you for recommending that I destroy my blood sugar control eridani Apr 2012 #34
This is it for me. Last post. Either get it or enjoy being obtuse. Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #37
your posts have to come with warning labels iverglas Apr 2012 #39
Alrighty then. Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #40
See also Health at Every Size eridani Apr 2012 #4
HAES is having a convention eridani Apr 2012 #42
You'd probably like Marilyn Wann too eridani Apr 2012 #5
I do like Marilyn Wann! I actually read the Fat! So? book BlueIris Apr 2012 #8
this is a tough issue and a really simple issue for me. seabeyond Apr 2012 #6
I find it a reasonably simple issue... Violet_Crumble Apr 2012 #7
If she changes her diet, what makes you think she'll weigh less? eridani Apr 2012 #12
Probably the same thing which... Systematic Chaos Apr 2012 #21
And where are the videos of those who did the same things and did not lose much? eridani Apr 2012 #23
That's what's happened in the past, plus I'd rather her try than die... Violet_Crumble Apr 2012 #38
If she adopts a diet that is healthy for those with insulin resistance eridani Apr 2012 #41
"as a society we are working to be allowed to be our ugly self more and more." redqueen Apr 2012 #17
. seabeyond Apr 2012 #18
And the callous way. redqueen Apr 2012 #19
I seem to remember a study a while back... wildflower Apr 2012 #11
it's an interesting question iverglas Apr 2012 #36

BlueIris

(29,135 posts)
1. Other links I recommend on this site include:
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 11:10 PM
Apr 2012

A poem by the author called "Invisiphilia":

http://bigliberty.net/?s=Invisiphilia&submit=Search

And pretty much every entry in the Dangerous Waters category:

http://bigliberty.net/category/dangerous-waters/


Some of those Dangerous Waters pieces are chilling. Especially the ones about people trying to label parents of obese children as child abusers.


If you have the nerve, you should read through the disturbing pieces in the Fat Phobia in Medicine/Health section:

http://bigliberty.net/category/fatphobia-in-medicinehealth/

(Yikes.)

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
2. As someone who was formerly super-morbidly obese (and who is still obese)...
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 12:07 AM
Apr 2012

...I am all for treating the obese/overweight with the utmost in compassion and understanding.

That being said, this site you're linking to is full of untruths and finger pointing which deny the simple truth that greater than 99.9% of all overweight people have only themselves and what they eat to blame for their conditions.

Before the Industrial Revolution made food a very cheap commodity, it was pretty much a given that only the upper classes were able to consistently consume the meat-heavy and calorie dense diets which lead to being overweight with all of its attendant diseases and conditions. Except for times of famine (which unfortunately were much too common centuries ago), the masses consumed diets in which grains, vegetables and fruits comprised the bulk of the diet. A piece of meat was nothing more than an occasional garnish, and dairy and eggs were not consumed as often as they are today.

Fast forward to today, and we now have as "the norm" diets which are twice or even triple the calorie density of the foods which earlier populations thrived on, and which are high in fatty and processed foods. This, even more than the reduced amount of physical activity we commonly have compared to our ancestors, is why so many of us are obese and/or sick now.

This blogger wants to keep coming back to some statistic where she claims that 77% of weight is inherited. Maybe that is true in a way, but not how she's trying to convince us. If one's parents are fat because of a highly calorie dense and processed diet, then sure, it will be likely that their children will attain a state of obesity due to the exact same diet. Switching the garbage food out for starches, veggies and fruit would eliminate nearly all of this obesity in both the parents and children by default.

My story in a nutshell is that I am a food addict who developed a laundry list of nasty health problems do to my weight, and depending upon modern medicine to solve these problems while only attempting token changes to my diet and eating patterns only served to exacerbate them. Ultimately, I became an over 500 lb. and completely disabled man who also lost his ability to work, and therefore any access to medical care (I have only Medicare Part A with my disability and am unable to afford the premiums, co-pays and associated costs with Part B, and have not seen a doctor in over 3 years). Unable to even exercise enough to be of any benefit, I resorted to massive diet changes and have since lost over 200 lbs. I am unofficially below even the 316 which currently shows up on the ticker in my signature, but I am waiting for Sunday to make an official update to that. Accounting for the 20-30 pounds of loose skin I will be carrying, I am now safely within 100 lbs. of my final goal and feel better than I have in a number of years.

As I said already, I am all in favor of giving the millions of overweight and obese people worldwide the very best in medical care and compassion. But until it is acknowledged that diet -- as in choice of foods on a daily basis "diet" rather than the restricting portions and counting calories type of "diet" -- is what is creating an obesity epidemic, very little is going to change, and hundreds of millions of people worldwide will continue to suffer the ill health effects of a diet which consists of what was once considered a "feast" for special occasions, one or more times per day.

Every minute of this video is worth watching. Following Dr. John McDougall's advice has saved my life. I wish this blogger would give it a watch as well.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
3. Are you also addicted to oxygen and water?
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 04:43 AM
Apr 2012

Me too, which makes us all multiple substance abusers.

BTW, how do you account for the fact that our admittedly unhealthy diets don't make everyone weigh 500 lbs?

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
10. Uh, not everybody consuming an "admittedly unhealthy diet" is a food addict?
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 01:32 PM
Apr 2012

Exactly what point are you trying to make here?

Did you watch the video I posted?

And lastly, what do breathing and drinking water have to do with any of this?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
14. The term "food addict" is meaningless bullshit
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:18 PM
Apr 2012

We need food, water and oxygen in order to live, and to apply the language of pharmaceutical dependencies to these basic needs makes no sense whatsoever.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
24. Defining terminology has nothing to do with empirical experimental results.
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:17 PM
Apr 2012

If you have a bad reaction to some foods, this may be an allergy, but it is more likely an intolerance. The distinction matters, and doesn't depend on experimentation. Calling any dysfunctional behavior an addiction is stupid. Are bullies "addicted" to bullying? Nonsense.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
26. There's no evidence that bullying initiates the same physical changes in the brain
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:39 PM
Apr 2012

which are demonstrated in the brains of addicts.

It isn't conclusive but the evidence is growing that that is not the case where compulsive eating is concerned. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20042860

This of course doesn't negate the fact that there are many, many other causes for obesity.

This is just one single reason among many that someone might have issues with weight.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
30. Not quite.
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 01:16 AM
Apr 2012
PURPOSE OF REVIEW:
Food addiction has been implicated as a putative causal factor in chronic overeating, binge eating, and obesity. The concept of food addiction has been controversial historically due to definitional and conceptual difficulties and to a lack of rigorous scientific data.

RECENT FINDINGS:
Support for the food addiction hypothesis comes from alterations in neurochemistry (dopamine, endogenous opioids), neuroanatomy (limbic system), and self-medication behaviors. Foods identified as having potential addictive properties include sweets, carbohydrates, fats, sweet/fat combinations, and possibly processed and/or high salt foods. Eating topography has been identified as a necessary factor in neural pathway changes that promote addiction-like properties in response to some foods. A recently developed food addiction scale shows promise in identifying food addiction.

SUMMARY:
Recent findings have strengthened the case for food addiction. These findings may serve to validate the perception of food addiction in patients and inform psychoeducational, cognitive-behavioral, and/or pharmacological treatment for chronic food cravings, compulsive overeating, and binge eating that may represent a phenotype of obesity. Screening for food addiction has the potential to identify people with eating difficulties that seriously compromise weight management efforts. Future research should include a focus on human food addiction research; evaluating the impact of treatment on underlying neurochemistry; and prevention or reversal of food addiction in humans.

PMID: 20042860 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



eridani

(51,907 posts)
32. A compulsion is not an addiction, period
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 02:38 AM
Apr 2012

Anorexia also has neurochemical precipitating factors, and it isn't "addiction" either. People sometimes talk about excessive exercising as an "addiction" also.

Tell me this. If we are talking about addiction, what are the withdrawal symptoms? How is extinction measured (that is, the tendency to require increasing amounts of the addicting substance to achieve the same euphoric or other effect)?

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
35. I'm glad you made this point
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 02:53 PM
Apr 2012

The medical model is way overused. Not all compulsive behaviours are addictions. And all addictions have behavioural components, obviously.

Compulsive behaviours do commonly allay emotional problems / provide emotional benefits, possibly with attendant physical effects, and undoubtedly there is brain chemistry involved in that process. (I have a "gambling addict" friend, and there is no doubt that her behaviour is a response to anxiety, and allays that anxiety ... temporarily.) Both substance consumption and other behaviours can be regarded as "self-medicating" (and in fact, I'm persuaded that most genuine substance addiction is just that, and it's high time that it be approached that way).

And certain foods do definitely have brain chemistry / emotional effects. But for heaven's sake, everything we do has! Solving a cryptic crossword puzzle makes me feel good. I don't need more cryptic crosswords every day to get the same effect (in fact, I haven't done one in months), and I don't get physically sick if I don't have my daily puzzle, and I don't imagine anyone ever has. Puzzles, and sex, for instance, aren't like caffeine or alcohol or nicotine. And while carbs may make you happy, you don't get delerium tremens if go a day without.

Everything we do amounts to "self-medicating" in one way or another. Eating meets our need for energy, but eating itself is not problematic. I'd say it's when the behaviour is counter-productive that the problem exists. And as you can probably guess, I'm all about cognitive therapy when that happens, not medical-modelling every problematic behaviour we encounter.

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
20. I'm sorry, but from personal experience I really have to disagree with you.
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 06:57 PM
Apr 2012

I was a person who tried to eat away a lot of emotional baggage and pain in much the same way that alcoholics and abusers of both legal and illegal drugs try and do the same thing with their own substances of choice.

During my worst binge periods it was not uncommon for me to order some kind of extra large 2-for-1 pizza deal at opening time (11am or noon) and demolish at least one entire 16" or 18" pizza, and sometimes closer to 1 1/2, before stopping for a while and putting what was left over in the fridge for the next day. Then at dinner time I'd polish off a big bag of Doritos and have one or two pints of Ben & Jerrys. And then, when it was getting close to midnight and the drive-throughs were all going to be closing, I'd head over to Taco Bell and get a big sack of burritos (as many as eight or even ten!), of which half would be decimated in the car on the way back home and the other half finished within 20 minutes of my ass hitting the sofa.

That really is hardcore addiction to a substance -- in this case food -- much like severe alcoholics drink themselves into a DT stupor or a heroin addict ends up running out of veins to shoot up into. And I'm telling you how I've managed to overcome it by switching to a starch, fruit and veg-based diet. In doing so, I have reduced the calorie density of what I eat to the point where it's physically impossible to pull in even a third the total calories I would have in the binge day described above. Furthermore, there is so much usable nutrition in the foods I eat now that I get the signals from the brain to stop eating much more quickly than before, thus my appetite is now so small that it amazes me at times. And finally, I want to stress that through a combination of diabetes and poor circulation my legs were nearly destroyed by the time I reached my peak weight. I was threatened with looming amputation of at least part of my left leg more than once, and this was in my late 30s. On my YouTube channel I have a couple of videos where I talk about that in depth. I was to the point where I could not put on shoes and therefore could not even leave my house. Exercise was next to impossible for me, and all the weight loss I've achieved has been through diet almost exclusively. The last of the ulcerations on my left foot are finally closing up, but even so there is a lot of swelling and tenderness which still makes wearing and walking in even diabetic shoes feel like torture. I have learned to deal with it the best I can, but it's really, really fucking difficult and I would not wish it on anyone.

I'm still fat, with nearly 100 lbs. left to lose (plus who knows how much loose skin I won't ever get taken off without insurance). I would never wish the experiences I had when I did have insurance and did try to get help on anybody. Not even the most brick-headed right-wing libertarian teabagger dolt. And once I've lost these last pounds I will still be advocating for the very best in care for everyone, including the obese. But after having reviewed all the science I have, there is nobody who is going to convince me that over 70% of overweight parents are going to just pass that fat on to their kids through genetics. I'm sorry, but there is no truth in that. Instead, what these overweight parents are doing is training their kids to rely upon the same highly processed and chemical-laden foods which they have, and the children will follow their parents into obesity one 1,200 or 1,600 calorie (instead of 400 or 600 calorie) stomach full of fatty, garbage food at a time.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
22. Sorry--every single dysfunctional behavior is NOT an addiction
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:09 PM
Apr 2012

Sounds more like compulsive behavior to me--not that the effects aren't just as bad. Can we please just stop overusing this silly War on Some Drugs vocabulary? Are you trying to say that if people never take heroin that they will die? Lots of people die from not eating.

For people with syndrome X, BTW, there is hardly a worse diet than starch and fruit. If you can live on that, count yourself lucky.

A point in favor of binge eating and bulimia as compulsions is anecdotal evidence from a few people who were on drug therapy to deal with those conditions, and discovered that they were no longer tempted to shoplift as well.

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
9. well hm
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 11:07 AM
Apr 2012


Let's take me as a for instance.

I look in the mirror these days and see my dad. It gives me quite a start some mornings. (My mum was tiny in her youth, and has also been overweight since having kids, but she is a completely different body type and I have none of the characteristics or medical conditions of her side of the family. I'm also not blonde and blue-eyed ...)

My paternal grandfather died at age 65 (in the 1950s) of a coronary artery blockage. My dad died a few years ago (at 73) of a coronary artery blockage -- quadruple, almost complete. But we only know this from the post mortem; his condition was asymptomatic and undiagnosed (he was bicycling 10 miles a day until not long before he died, having taken the need to control his weight and hypertension seriously), and it was only when he was dying of metastasized melanoma that his heart began to cause trouble. On getting the results of the post mortem (which was done because no one had told us what was really happening and his death wasn't consistent with the cancer), the coroner called my mum immediately and said we kids must get the appropriate tests and start being monitored. Totally hereditary.

My paternal grandfather's father and grandfather and great-grandfather (born in the 1790s) lived to quite ripe old ages. However, his mother, my great-grandmother, died at the age of 48. My grandmother told me I looked like my grandfather's mother; I think the word she used was "stout".

(edit - I'd meant to add that my father's brother looked just like him and their dad, and had a disabling stroke at age 45. Two of his kids are mirror images of me and my chubby brother, although their mum was slight. The hereditary aspects are really just undeniable. My sister, on the other hand, is my mum: it's all in the bum. )

About 5 years ago I switched community clinics for my primary health care from the one I'd gone to for 30 years, with the annoying and increasingly adolescent doctors, to the one where my partner and best friend went, and their doctor there, our age, whom I knew already. During initial consults, involving family histories, I was telling her about my dad, and I saw her eyeing my "waist". Yeah, I said: Syndrome X. I am an apple (as compared to a pear): small bust, small hips and bum (all things being relative), big waist/belly fat, the bad kind of fat. And I have the attendant "syndrome": high bad cholesterol and low good cholesterol, hypertension, tendency to high blood sugar.

I don't overeat particularly. I haven't had a fast-food hamburger in ... well drat, we did have Harvey's burger-and-fries take-out about a month ago. Before that, it had been, oh, at least three years. We order pizza every couple of months. Other than that, I make all our food from scratch, and I wouldn't know how to deep-fry something to save my life. No doughnuts, no bacon ... . Stews, chili, Chinese and Indian dishes, pastas, heavy on veg and whole grains and legumes. I have to admit we have a weakness for having a chocolate bar or ice cream for desert, and potato chips fairly regularly (as part of supper, so they go with things like chicken caesar salad in super low-carb whole-grain pita sandwiches).

But still, this is nothing like the typical diet of the obese, let alone morbidly obese. My partner has Type I diabetes (he is the Jack Sprat in the household - 6'4 and so thin that his mother constantly asked me whether he was unwell), so I carb-count religiously. I don't drink pop, we don't keep "snack foods" in the house, we don't buy prepared meals, which are almost all high-fat / high-carb / high-salt (certainly as compared to what I cook). My weakness is that I am perfectly happy eating nothing all day until our late supper, and I know that's crap, so I am trying to continue my bone-healing diet from the last 10 weeks of immobility from the broken leg, and eat at least fruit during the day. Lots of cottage cheese dips, and I've decided he can eat tofu and like it or lump it, because I like it.

What don't I do? Exercise. At all. Except that I have an exercise equipment thingy I bought some years ago because it looked like fun and then left mouldering in a corner, which is now in the living room because it's the perfect thing for strengthening my bum leg and foot (sort of like rowing machines, only you sit on a saddle and pull/push yourself from sitting to standing, pumping like on one of those kids' roundabouts in the playgrounds of my youth). And I'm going to stick with it. I vow. Because yes, it is healtheir to be both less overweight and more active, and at some point it does become do or die.

And you know what I blame in large part for my inertia? School. Phys ed in school was (team) sports-oriented and competitive. For the kid who was always picked last when picking was done, that was nothing short of hell. I just fucking hated team sports to start with; basically I hate sports of any kind (except maybe water stuff, and I just can't really afford an indoor swimming pool). Just boring and pointless. When I was a kid, I wanted to spend the summer reading in the cool basement, not running around pointlessly with other kids I had nothing in common with. I learned nothing in phys ed, no skills or attitudes or practices, that equipped me for being active in later life.

A few years ago I decided to take up water aerobics. I thought it would be fun, and it was. I stuck with it for two years. Taking time out three times a week to get to the Y, change, do the class, shower and dry (February where I live is no time to be going outside with long wet hair, and no, you can't put me in a bathing cap for a million bucks) just wasn't realistic. And I was still spending that time in a crowd of people I found boring and annoying. One day the gung-ho instructor decided to have us warm up by "playing" some kind of ball-throwing "game". We basically all stood around in a circle and stared at the ball. I finally said: You need to realize that the reason all us middle-aged women are here is that we are the ones who despised team sports in gym class! That was our last ball-throwing session. So eventually I dropped out, mainly for lack of time, or at least the interest in organizing my time to manage it, not to mention the cost involved. And now I'm sedentary.

If I had been allowed to spend gym class just running around the track by myself for all those years, instead of being forced to "participate" in crap I hated with people I didn't care about, I might not be in this fix. I'd have acquired the habit, maybe, and at least have been fitter at the end of school. Well, actually, over the last three years of high school and my first year of university, I slimmed down a lot, just kind of unconsciously. To the point that, looking back on it, I might have been flirting with anorexia toward the end of that phase: I was focused on eating half of this and half of that, putting my Levis on without unzipping them (the men's size I'd still had to take up a couple of inches in the bum, in the size that fit my waist), etc. At 5'6 I weighed just under 120 lbs, and while that isn't what today's standards would call too thin, it was absolutely thin enough (exactly "normal" per BMI tables -- currently I'm significantly "overweight" but not "obese&quot . Then came the pot and the pill, and the long steady upward climb.

About 5 years ago I did lose about 30 pounds on my partner's sudden super-low-carb crash diet to get his blood sugar under control, and haven't put most of it back on, but since he is back to eating like a pig, it's a little hard to deprive myself to that extent! But that really does make it obvious what the problem and solution are, if I'm not going to take up running marathons. Eat less and/or exercise more. Yeah, it's that simple.

Our ancestors consumed all those carbs -- and they did consume fats, whether as meat (mind you, mine being English, there was a fair bit of fish involved, and unfortunately for me, fish makes me puke) or cheese (when my mum wants to lower her cholesterol, she just cuts out cheese) -- and worked them off every day. We keep eating the same way and sitting on it.

So am I to blame? Well, I'm afraid that I'll take only partial blame here. Yeah, I'm to blame for not balancing the energy intake/output better. But I have to overcome a quite serious and real genetic tendency -- somebody else my weight with a different distribution would be both less at risk for health problems and more "buxom" than fat -- and the handicaps of lifestyle that I'm not entirely responsible for the origins of.

As far as "acceptance" and all that -- for me, it's much like every other aspect of life. I don't give a crap what anybody else thinks. I certainly did not feel any less insecure when I was young, or any more successful, when I was skinny than when I wasn't. My self-image and self-worth are derived internally. And you know, I think that's a whole lot of the issue.

Fat people really can be just as happy and successful as thin people. They are just as capable, just as intelligent, just as able to acquire and use their skills.

Just as women are just as capable, just as intelligent, and just as able to acquire and use their skills as men are. If they would just stop focusing on the standards imposed on them from the outside - for women, not just of appearance but also of behaviour - and pay attention to who they are and what they want, they'd be a hell of a lot happier.

If someone doesn't like or respect or want me because of some aspect of who I am, I wouldn't even say "it's their loss", because I really just don't give a shit. I'm no more interested in them than they are in me. The things about me that might need changing (be it my physical condition or my horrible procrastination) need changing for me, not for somebody else.

Does that address the discrimination aspect? Well no, admittedly. But it's another chicken and egg thing. Nobody's going to overcome discriminatin by saying "stop". We, individually, can't alter other people's behaviour other than by proving them wrong. And working to succeed on our own terms, for our own benefit, is the best way I see of doing that.


Since I'm replying to the particular post that prompted my thoughts, I just want to add how awful it is that your health is another casualty of the USAmerican political culture. I'm in Canada; here, I'd get you enrolled at my community clinic -- a multi-service community health centre -- and you'd get whatever medical treatment and social supports and relevant referrals you needed, at a total cost of zero (same if you went to a private physician, but yours is exactly the kind of situation where a CHC's interdisciplinary approach could be most helpful). And if you were able to get your health back, you'd be able to work and contribute in other ways to society, and you'd be happier and society would be the better for it. Anyone who can't see that, or argues against the political choices that make it possible, is a moron and not a nice person.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
13. The only thing you are to "blame" for is choosing having a life over--
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:17 PM
Apr 2012

--attempting to achieve and maintain normal weight. Can't figure out why anyone thinks that 'willpower' helps you balance energy intake any better. Your metabolism is not a bank account. Take in fewer calories, and it will quickly (or more slowly, depending on genetics), adapt to use fewer calories.

BlueIris

(29,135 posts)
16. "99.9% of all overweight people have only themselves and what they eat to blame..."
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 06:18 PM
Apr 2012

I used to hold this perspective. It didn't survive reading Big Liberty. So I have hope for you and others like you.

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
25. Now hold on just a minute....
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:01 PM
Apr 2012

I'm not trying to be snippy or argumentative here, but I would like to take a moment now to make it abundantly clear that even though I'm a guy, I have nonetheless lived the nightmares of dysmorphia (body image issues) and horrible treatment by the medical system based both upon my weight and my low social standing. I have been treated rudely by doctors, disrespected, yelled at, you name it. I have weighed in excess of a quarter ton and suffered the embarrassment of not being able to fit in public chairs or other spaces. I've had to go to big and tall stores and pay more than double what a normal-sized person would for my pick of 6 or 7 articles of clothing which were actually big enough to fit. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and at just over 300 pounds I'm only just now glimpsing a teensy-weensy dot of light at the end of the tunnel.

All I have to thank for bringing me to the point I'm at today is the conscious decision to trade in my pizzas for whole wheat pasta with oil-free -- but still delicious! -- tomato sauce. I decided to trade in fast food burgers and greasy Mexican food for bean chili with bulghur (cracked wheat) added to give a meaty texture. 'Fried' rice made without oil in a non-stick pan, with liberal amounts of teriyaki or low-salt soy sauce and lots of Bird's Eye oriental vegetable mix is delicious, and a two-quart container full of that gives me a full day's eating and comes in at under 2,000 calories. It's a lot of food!

I realized that even though I cannot change the shitty social attitudes which work to keep us fat people down -- and with which I'm fully in agreement with Big Liberty's posts -- I can still do what will work, which is using simple science and a real desire to regain my health and my life to modify my food choices. There is no other way, given the resources I had available to me, where I could have made the claim of losing over 200 pounds. The Star McDougaller list I posted elsewhere in this thread is full of people who have overcome or greatly reduced the severity of ravaging illnesses by doing what I've done.

So my point here is that while Big Liberty is absolutely justified in wanting to be treated with respect and compassion like any other person, I cannot give any credence to the multitude of strawman arguments and excuses her rhetoric is so fraught with. Complaining endlessly about how it is to be treated as a fat person is one thing. Trying the lifestyle changes in terms of food choices which will -- again, by default -- help cure the obesity and other health issues is totally another. I do agree up to a point that metabolism may play a role in all of this, but it is not a deal breaker! I understand that there are some rare conditions which can be conducive to weight gain, but even those people who suffer from such conditions would be in better shape with a commitment to a whole-food and plant-based diet.

What I have hope for is that more people will come to realize this.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
27. "I do agree up to a point that metabolism may play a role in all of this,
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:43 PM
Apr 2012

but it is not a deal breaker!"

You speak as if you're an authority.

Are you a medical doctor currently doing research into metabolic disorders?

Just how rare are those metabolic conditions? Any source for your information on that?

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
28. I'm merely relaying the results of decades of research...
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 09:05 PM
Apr 2012

...from several doctors who have done decades of research into these metabolic disorders, including diabetes, and have found that a starch-based diet can reverse much if not all of such conditions.

As an aside, were you aware that a great percentage of doctors only receive a day or two of nutrition study in the course of their entire education? Can you even guess how many doctors will argue that only medications and not diet will help treat many common diseases? It's really quite a pathetic situation, and makes it perfectly understandable why people are so confused about all this!

I suggest that you check out the newsletter section at www.drmcdougall.com, read the appropriate entries and take up any issues you may have with either Dr. McDougall himself or the authors of the vast numbers of peer-reviewed papers he has cited.

While you're at it, be sure to stop by heartattackproof.com to see the research of Caldwell Esselstyn, and maybe spend a few moments with T. Colin Campbell at www.thechinastudy.com. More of the same, all scientifically sound and potentially life-saving information. Feel free to argue with them as well.

And just to make it abundantly clear, my dream once I'm down to an ideal weight thanks to this eating lifestyle is to beg, steal or borrow my way into the necessary certifications so that I may pay my experience forward and help others who are fat, sick and feel hopeless. I'm living proof there is hope.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
31. Your experiences are not relevant to those who eat healthier and remain fat, period
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 02:33 AM
Apr 2012

The Star McDougaller contains no entries for those who stay fat while essentially following the same regimen.

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
33. If you know of a person who eats ONLY starches, vegetables and fruits with NO...
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:37 AM
Apr 2012

...and again I say NO added oils of ANY KIND, not even a teaspoon of olive oil a day, no dairy, no meat, no fish, no eggs, NONE, EVER, and stays fat, I'd really like to meet them.

Less than one percent of the population is willing to make those "terrible sacrifices," and try "living without their meat" or "their butter" or "their sour cream" or their WTF-ever and experience what happens upon doing so.

However, greater than 97% of the people who try calorie and portion-controlled "diet" after calorie and portion-controlled "diet" will end up feeling deprived and fail because they're simply eating too little of the same crap food, maybe with minor modifications which really amount to jack-all, and aren't achieving a feeling of satiety or fullness from a meal.

In other words, you're going to feel a helluva lot healthier and full and comforted after eating two quarts of split pea and potato soup, two oranges and a banana in one day than you are eating a single "super-sized" huge fast food burger meal. You will get the same amount of calories (and possibly less), but only the scantest fraction of the fat content, and your body will burn through the split pea soup and fruit like a furnace, WITHOUT all that fat from the burger and fries screwing up your body's ability to process insulin which is what in fact REALLY makes you diabetic!

Far better to go with the sure < 1% minority than gamble on being in the < 3% one every day of the week.

And I swear I'm not trying to be mean or nasty or give anyone any shit here. I'm only trying to help.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
34. Thank you for recommending that I destroy my blood sugar control
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:51 AM
Apr 2012

--with fruit and potatoes. I don't eat bananas per doctor's orders.

You are recommending death to people with insulin resistance, and I don't appreciate it.

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
37. This is it for me. Last post. Either get it or enjoy being obtuse.
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 04:13 PM
Apr 2012
http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/050308starlogan.html

[quote]The doctor gave me a diet to follow. Much of what I loved I could no longer eat. My love for food dwindled away, and I fell into a deep depression. Then, he prescribed for me a course of diabetic drugs, called Diabex (metformin, like Glucophage), twice daily. I asked him what the possible side effects could be. He said I could become hypoglycemic (low blood sugar) and that was the worst I could expect.

Over the next few weeks I began the new diet and the exercise plan – and during this time, I watched my weight steadily rise. The depression grew worse – I was eating like a sparrow, I was hungry most of the time, I was doing a workout that I had no desire to do. I saw nothing but misery for the rest of my years. Was this regime worth continuing or should I just go back to my former way of life, and let the diabetes run its course? The thought of my wife and three kids kept me doing what I inherently knew was wrong.

About a month later I developed fever, chills, and before long I felt like I just wanted to die. After a night of suffering, I concluded this might have been lactic acidosis, a serious side effect from the Diabex. Obviously, my present approach was not curing me and I was risking my life with the medication. I decided then that I had to find a cure at all costs. I had to do this for my family. So I began to search.

One kind co-worker sent me an e-mail with a link to Dr. McDougall's presentation on the "Hazards of Dairy" from the Vegsource 2003 conference. I was so impressed with what he had to say that I started reading his website. Here I found detailed information on how to get myself out of trouble.

My wife joined in with me. At first, her commitment wasn't 100% to the plan, even though it was when I was around. Her mindset was "well, it's not me that's sick - all my levels are normal, so the odd donut or ice-cream won't hurt me...will it?" The coworker who sent me the link also decided to start the plan. It wasn't what we would call 100% McDougall, but it was all vegan food, with the decision that meat would only be consumed in circumstances beyond his control (like a neighbor's barbecue, etc.). But for me, it was 100%. I stopped the medications and began this very different diet I call "McDougalling," on December 1, 2004.

Six weeks after starting the McDougall regime, I went back to the doctor. I was seriously dreading this next visit. I wanted to believe more than anything that Dr. McDougall was right. But what if my body didn't respond? And what if giving up the medication had done me more harm than good? He looked at the results and with his eyes nearly popping out of his head he turned to me and said "Congratulations." He then shook my hand and said words I will never forget, "There is now no longer any need for medical intervention. You have really looked after yourself." I tried to tell him what I did but he didn't seem interested. He was happy I was off the medication, and as far as he was concerned, he was the reason for my success.

My sugar levels at first reading were 340 mg/dl, and today (March 7, 2005) they are 85 mg/dl. Additionally, my cholesterol was 262 mg/dl, and now it is 89 mg/dl. My triglycerides went from 518 mg /dl to 82 mg/dl. My weight has dropped from 242 pounds at my highest to 185 pounds today, and I am still slowly dropping. Now there are no medications interfering with my life. I look good and I feel good. Many people around me are also following the plan, and even those who aren't following it strictly have benefited. One lady at my work stopped me in a corridor and asked "what is it you guys are doing in there? You all look so great!" I told her, "We're REAL MEN who eat NO MEAT (or dairy etc.). And it's a far better place to be."
[/quote]

http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/jason_wyrick.html

[quote]When I was in my teens, I was a thin kid, in good health, and very active. I am still amazed that, ten years later, I found myself in a hospital in Austin, Texas, well over a hundred pounds overweight, being treated for an infection, and being told I was diabetic. I was more than scared when I found out, I was ashamed. I was under 30, diabetic, and looking at the prospect of having to take medication for the rest of my life. More than ashamed, I was desperate. I know how I caught the disease. Diabetes was in my family for at least two generations before me and now it looked like it had hit a third. My maternal grandmother was diabetic, both of my parents are diabetic, and my middle brother had many of the symptoms of the disease. I'm fairly certain I had it at least two years before I was diagnosed with it. I was overweight, unnaturally tired, prone to energy spikes and sudden crashes, my intellect was slowing down, and my eyesight was going terribly. That, perhaps, was the most visible (pun intended) symptom, having gone from 20/15 vision down to at least 20/30. Since a number of my family members wore glasses, I just thought I was now going down the same road. I never associated these health issues with diabetes because I simply didn't know any better. The highest blood sugar I can remember was 290 mg/dl. In hindsight, it may have been a good thing that I was in the hospital being treated for an infection (another symptom of diabetes) because, had I not been diagnosed with it then, the damage to my body would have been far worse.

Family history wasn't the only reason, though, and it turns out it wasn't the main one. It was what I was eating.

I was already on my way to becoming overweight in my late teens. By the time I was in my early 20's, I had a bulge for a stomach, although it wasn't too bad. After I became vegetarian, though, is when I really started to see my health deteriorate. What? I got unhealthier after I became vegetarian?! That's right. It's because I did one of the most foolish things a new vegetarian can do. I replaced most of the meat I was eating with heavily processed foods and cheese—along with a minimum amount of exercise. It wasn't uncommon for me to take a can of vegetarian refried beans (with vegetable oil), a small block of cheese, and a tiny bottle of Cholula hot sauce and have that for lunch. Pastas were my new friends, soy-based meat substitutes my pals, and any cheese I could get my hands on was a constant companion. Moderation? I rarely talked moderation anymore nor did I want to have much to do with anything low in fat. Of course, pasta and cheese had to introduce me to a couple of their other friends and I soon came to know morbid obesity and diabetes very well.

That is, in short, how I found myself in that hospital in Austin confronted by one of the most trying situations I had confronted in my life. The next step, after getting over the shock, was to figure out what to do about it. Fortunately, I had a friend who gave me the little bit of help I desperately needed. It turns out she had been through the exact same thing. We had both become vegetarian together and we both made the same mistakes together. She had become overweight as well. The difference between our situations was that she was diagnosed with the disease about one year before I was (you would think I would have picked up that I had it, as well, at that point). Having been told that she would have to take medication the rest of her life—she chose, instead, to treat the problem through diet and exercise. She fastidiously did research at the library and across the Internet. That was how she came across the McDougall diet. After picking up several of Dr. McDougall's books, she put herself on a low-fat, vegan diet.

Within just two months, most of her diabetic symptoms were gone and not long after that, she managed to cure her diabetes. Having seen her do that, I chose to do the same. It was a difficult journey for me. Giving up eating meat was much easier. One day I was a meat-eater and the next day I was a vegetarian. Not so for being vegan. I was what I call a "cheating vegan" for about a year—I sometimes didn't look at labels so that I wouldn't have to know if I was eating dairy products. The all-you-can-eat enchiladas served at a local Mexican restaurant were my downfall. Despite these obstacles, I still managed to drop a significant amount of weight and I, too, saw the symptoms of my diabetes begin to dissipate.

I cut down on the pastas almost entirely, stopped drinking sodas, and tried to concentrate on preparing my own meals with fruits and vegetables that looked appetizing to me, flavoring them with rich sauces that didn't rely on fats and spices that made the meals spring to life. I began to explore various ethnic cuisines to see how they prepared their vegan meals. After almost a year, I finally got rid of the enchiladas and fastidiously checked labels.

Even as a "cheating vegan," I still lost a substantial amount of weight, got rid of my diabetic symptoms, and saw a tremendous increase in energy. This became even more pronounced when I got rid of dairy entirely. Since then, I have lost over one hundred pounds, cured my diabetes, regained my eyesight (it's even improved to 20/13), achieved the ability to think quickly again, and I'm in better shape than when I was an athlete in high school. In fact, with just two months of training a couple times a week, I was able to hike the Grand Canyon from the North to the South Rim. My blood sugar is now 89 mg/dl. Being vegan (cutting out eggs, dairy, etc.) is absolutely one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life.
[/quote]

http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/scott_raphael.html

[quote]I woke up in the ICU unit of the hospital recovering from diabetic ketoacidosis—a commonly fatal complication of untreated diabetes. The hospital lab had registered my glucose level at 1130 mg/dL—ten times the normal level. After two days in ICU, I was transported to the "diabetic ward" where I was shown how to inject myself two to four times a day with insulin in my belly and my thighs. I was sent from there to diabetic classes where I was told that I was eating correctly but needed to cut my portions in half.

When my brother found out how sick I was, he sent me a book called "The McDougall Plan." I read a few chapters, and continued following the meal program the diabetic center dietitians had taught me. No matter how hard I tried my glucose levels would not stabilize. The dietitians' recommendation: just increase my dosage of insulin and maybe try oral diabetic medication. Unfortunately, the new pills, Glucophage, created unbelievable bowel distress. I started to think, that maybe eating beans, fruits and vegetables wouldn't be so hard to do—I got down "The McDougall Plan" again and read it cover to cover—all I wanted to do was to be well. However, putting into practice what I read was not all that easy.

Finally, in January of 2006, my wife and I took what we like to call "our most important vacation ever"—we joined John and Mary for their 10 day program in Santa Rosa, California. I learned more in those 10 days than I had learned in all my previous years of natural health education. We started the program with an exam from Dr. McDougall, where he addressed my health issues. Every morning, Mary McDougall was there to take my blood pressure, weigh me, and check how I was doing. The lectures were insightful and very pertinent to my getting well. Subjects included protein, calcium, diabetes, high blood pressure, how to use the Internet, reading labels and finding hidden fat. I thought that it would be hard to cook delicious meals, but we were given excellent recipes in our cooking class. The delicious food at the program was served buffet style and I had no limitation on how much I could eat—what a change! Exercise became a joy, not drudgery. What I learned most from the program was that all the misinformation given to us by our trusted doctors and dietitians was really making us very sick. I should have figured this out on my own by the way I had continued to look and feel while following their advice.

Before adopting The McDougall Program, my weight averaged 290 to 295 pounds, my blood pressure was in the area of 195/110 mmHg and my glucose levels were in the range of 300 to 400 mg/dL.

Now my blood pressure is down to 110/80 mmHg and my glucose levels average about 120 to 130 Mg/dL, and I am off insulin and pills. I am down to 190 pounds, a total weight loss of about 100 pounds in 9 months, and I have lost 13 inches off my waist. I am a new person—my level of confidence and self esteem are at a heightened level that I had not felt in decades. I have changed so much that people who have not seen me in a while have to look twice to make sure it's me.
Finally, I want to add that the McDougall Program (even though I did not follow it for many years) was the major force that caused me to return to school and to get my degree in natural health. After seven years of study I am now a Doctor of Naturopathy and practice in and around the Orange County/ Los Angeles area. I give lectures on the benefits of a low fat vegan lifestyle—and now, because of all the weight I have lost and my radiant energy, I am viewed by the audiences I speak to and my patients with far more credibility.
[/quote]

My work here is done. I won't be replying to you any more. Have I mentioned that I've lost over 200 lbs. and have probably saved a badly infected and ulcerated leg doing this? You know, I wish I had labs proving that my blood sugars have dropped massively from the untreated 400 or higher from the time of my diagnosis until now, but being uninsured and broke I can only surmise that those numbers are much better based on how I feel.

Anyway, good luck to you.
 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
39. your posts have to come with warning labels
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:13 PM
Apr 2012

(and really we have strayed far from the topic here)

I think the most concise answer I can give is: how could almost any diet not be more healthful than all-you-can-eat enchilada buffets and the other eating practices you have described??

My partner was diagnosed as Type 1 diabetic in his late forties. He is very tall and very thin, and always has been (at 6'4 he weighs about 145: underweight), and eats quite a lot. He too had a bout of DKA and hospitalization, in his case mainly because he had bad flu and since he was not eating, he was not doing his insulin; he was still somewhat new to the job. His blood sugar level on arrival in the ER , by our measurement system, was 48 (normal is 3 to 7). He was not confidently expected to live. We have to take his disease, and thus his nutrition, very seriously.

He does eat quite a lot of carbs, more than I am happy about, and not always of the type he should be eating, although we do get a fair amount of legumes and such in, along with the veg and protein. We also eat low-fat meats, and cheese (and as I said, I don't deep-fry, and our oils are canola and olive). He is reasonably serious about the exercise part of his regime, and quite simply, he, like everybody else, needs protein. He is already very lacking in muscle mass, and I can't imagine what he would be without the protein.

Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes are not the same thing; while Type 2 may call for insulin treatment to control it, and diet and other measures may obviate that need, you really don't cure Type 1 by diet.

As a long-term diet, yours is simply counter-intuitive and non-evidence based in terms of the effects of carbohydrates on some people, and historical nutrition practices among a wide range of human groups. (I would note that some groups of Aboriginal people in Canada have high rates of diabetes, precisely because of the addition of high volumes of carbohydrates to their diet in the last couple of generations, where previously, for centuries, their diets consisted of fish and meat, sometimes very high-fat (whale and seal, for starters), and a very few plant species). We were all hunters and gatherers at one stage, and grains call for cultivation, a much later stage in human history.

I found this other first-person account of one of McDougall's events interesting:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/vegan-island/

I watched at every meal as overweight, unhealthy people piled their plates with at least two pounds of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, beans, desert cake, and a glass of fruit juice. Sometimes they went back for more. By my calculations these people were consuming 200 to 300 or more grams of (mostly simple) carbohydrates at each of three meals. There was no way these folks were going to lose fat on this trip. It was, in my view, a type 2 diabetes epidemic in-the-making.

Not even my piggy and occasionally negligent partner eats that much carbohydrate in a sitting, let alone in a day.

McDougall is associated with Neal Barnard, who is of course closely associated with PETA. There is a political agenda here, in addition to the money-making one.

I don't doubt that a plant and grain based diet is doing you a world of better than what you ate before. That just doesn't mean that it is going to be the best long-term plan for you, or for anybody else.


edit; left a word out

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
40. Alrighty then.
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:09 PM
Apr 2012

First of all, I don't go to all-you-can-eat enchilada buffets. One of the Star McDougallers had a habit of doing that prior to embarking on McDougall and for a time afterwards, just as I had a habit of engorging on pizza, ice cream, fried shrimp and what have you before I made my change. The person to whom you are referring no longer does this.

As for these claims that the Eskimos with their diets of meat and blubber are somehow ideal, I refer you to the following:

&feature=relmfu
&feature=relmfu

And the best for last, where he talks about the Fart God:

&feature=plcp&context=C4d30df5VDvjVQa1PpcFP_5FVP0Z289nwIH4IIUIemjQqlg7R9H2A%3D

Honestly, watching this entire video series is absolutely worth spending the time on. Do a few videos a day and you'll be done in well under a month and you'll come out of it learning a lot. He also does a fine job of utterly destroying the claims of the Paleo crowd, of whom Mark Sisson of marksdailyapple.com is one.

Now let me ask you something: Do you really believe that during the Costa Rica trip, the people who attended made pigs of themselves like Mr. Sisson claims? Those trips are attended by the McDougall family as well as a number of successful followers of the plan, many of whom cured their diabetes by consuming a high starch diet.

Someone else who was on that particular trip had a few things to say:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25530&hilit=marksdailyapple

Q - "I'm kind of astonished that the guy could go on the Costa Rica trip and come back so UTTERLY ignorant of the McDougall plan! He must just have been paying NO attention whatsoever when Dr. McD opened his mouth!"



A - "That's because he did not come to any of the lectures. As a matter of fact he only came to the dining room once on the very first evening. He then ate all his meals down the hill at the hamburger shack. His wife is/was a McDougaller. He agreed to come on this trip with her knowing full well what he was getting into and then made her miserable. She was in tears several times.

The other 119 people on the trip had a great time, including myself. Even Kev who is not now nor was then a McDougaller ate every meal in the dining room and enjoyed them all.

Sorry if this sounds terse. He was so obnoxious and I felt so sorry for his wife. Think I'll go do my kick boxing workout now."



Q - "Well, that 'splains it then! What a jerk! If he doesn't want to do it, that's his business, but why then go out on the internet to talk about something he clearly knows NOTHING about???"

Q - "O! So you were actually there with him, dlb? Thanks so much for adding to this discussion. Were his descriptions of the meals accurate? Because they don't sound very "McDougall-ish" to me! He implied white bread and sugary fruit drinks, which can't be true (can it?).

On the other hand, I was sort of glad to hear that the "adventure" parts of the trip weren't "all that adventurous". My mental image of a ropes course is me, dangling like the victim of a giant spider, while the coach throws abuse upon my head .

I'd love to hear your own recollections of this trip, if you've got time to share."



A - "Well you asked for it. I tried to keep it down but it's long .

Yes, he was there the year we were.

He’s right that the group was a mixture of people. Some were long time McDougallers, some where people who had no idea what the program was all about and most somewhere in between. His description of the long timers is inaccurate. There were many trim and healthy looking people. I meet some people who were in their 80s and could run circles around most people half their age.

All of the meals where held in a common dining area with open seating and the buffets around the perimeter. The dining room was open air and looked out over the ocean. It was a beautiful setting. There were literally tables full of food. There were starches (potatoes, rice, beans), veggies, fruits and a whole table of salad stuff. I honestly don’t remember what the dressings where but if they didn’t have any I think I would remember it. Or at least remember Kev complaining . They made different things like waffles, pancakes, lasagna, pizza. There was also a woman making fresh corn tortillas. And yes, they did have a dessert table. It usually consisted of 3 or 4 different types of cakes. All cut into small serving sizing.

For beverages there was fruit juice served with each meal. They were made from freshly squeeze local fruits. Also available were tea and coffee. If you wanted a glass of wine or beer there was a bar which you can buy it from. Of course, water was also served.

For the adventures they spilt us up into smaller groups. We went hiking, horseback riding, snorkeling, rafting, zip lining. The adventures were planned so that people of all fitness levels could take part. Nothing was overly exerting but you weren’t sitting around a pool all day either. Or you could if you wanted to.

In the evening before dinner Dr. McDougall gave a lecture each evening. He tailors his lectures to the level of the group. As we had so many beginners that trip, the lectures were mostly at that level. He said to me, “you’ve probably heard all this before” and most of it I did. Still it was interesting to hear him in person and I did learn a few things I didn’t know. Also he and Mary were available each day for general conversation. The very first day we got there, he and Mary were at our table for lunch. I was so thrilled.

After dinner each evening, one of our guides gave a lecture. We had three guides and each had their own specialty. One talked about plants of Costa Rica, one talk of the indigenous peoples and artifacts, and the third took us up on a hill to do star gazing. His father or grandfather (I can’t remember which) was an astronomer and his knowledge was amazing. Then on another evening, Dr. McDougall arranged for a local dance and music group to come and perform for us. They were in authentic costumes and it was beautiful.

I really enjoyed everything but my favorite part had to be just meeting so many like minded people to share the experience with. That’s the part that is so hard to put into words. Even Kev, who as I said is not a McDougaller, still wants to go back again someday."



So, pick who you're going to believe. I'll take the dedicated follower of the McDougall Plan over the macho Paleo nutcase who isolated himself from over 100 other people, ate at a burger joint, and had a penchant for making his poor wife cry.

As for claims of a money-making or political agenda, I can only ask why all you need to know is 100% completely free on his website? You don't need to buy a single book or DVD to benefit from the plan. The articles on various health conditions are there (all fully referenced with peer-reviewed studies), the recipes are there, the advice on how to cook and stock your pantry is there, and the support of the forums including frequent appearances by Star McDougallers and Star McDougallers-to-be is there, and again it is all free.

Now about type-1 diabetes. It is an auto-immune disease which is practically unheard of in cultures which don't adopt the practice of feeding their babies from plastic or glass bottles full of cow's milk based baby formula:

http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/020700puthepancreas.htm

Make special note of the 27 peer-reviewed references at the bottom of that article. Dr. McDougall doesn't just make this stuff up himself and then pull whatever out of his ass to fit an 'agenda'.

Your entire paragraph here, while well-intended, is indeed full of misinformation and proves that you are making a lot of food choices which are of absolutely no benefit to your husband:

"He does eat quite a lot of carbs, more than I am happy about, and not always of the type he should be eating, although we do get a fair amount of legumes and such in, along with the veg and protein. We also eat low-fat meats, and cheese (and as I said, I don't deep-fry, and our oils are canola and olive). He is reasonably serious about the exercise part of his regime, and quite simply, he, like everybody else, needs protein. He is already very lacking in muscle mass, and I can't imagine what he would be without the protein."

Would you care to take a guess at this time, exactly what percentage of calories in human breast milk come from protein? After all, that milk is what is responsible for helping human babies develop their new muscles and double in size every few months. Is it 50%? Maybe the 'recommended' 30%? No, try roughly 7% of calories from protein.


(All protein calculations in the next several citations are based upon the fact that protein has 4 calories to the gram)


http://www.parentingscience.com/calories-in-breast-milk.html

According to a British report, each 100 mL of mature breast milk (i.e., breast milk produced after 21 days of lactation) yields approximately

• 70 calories

• 89.97 g water

• 7.4 g carbohydrates (primarily lactose)

• 4.2 g fat

• 1.3 g protein

Potatoes, on the other hand, have roughly 11% of their calories from protein, which is in fact 'complete' protein

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fdd/facts/hhpfacts/New_HHPFacts/Veges/HHFS_POTATOES_RUSSET_F131-F135_Final.pdf

Brown rice has about 9% of its calories from protein (again, complete protein)

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5706/2

Oatmeal has over 14% of its calories from protein

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5706/2

And on and on through all the unrefined starches we could go, only to find that all of them contain more protein calorie-for-calorie than even human breast milk!

If you were ever stranded on a small island and could only have an infinite supply of one food source, your best pick would be potatoes. They are nutritionally complete to the point that you could survive on them with no ill effects for years, if necessary.

I have already clicked on dozens of links and spent a long time on this post, so I'm going to shorten the last parts of my response only to say that what you (and most people, granted) think are 'proper' food choices which will help your husband, are in fact very much the opposite. You really need to consider removing all dairy, meat, cheese and oil from your diet. More dairy is not the answer to an auto-immune disease which was caused by ingestion of dairy early in life. Added dietary oils only get into the system and coat the cells, causing diabetes symptoms to worsen. Each of these is a proven fact, shown to be true by researchers without an 'agenda', unlike the American Diabetes Association, American Heart Association and all the other institutions which are always seeking more money, yet will cease to exist if they ever actually did "cure" the diseases they represent! And we wouldn't want the people representing the multi-billion dollar dairy, meat, egg, cheese, etc. industries to end up out on the streets either, would we? The video series I linked near the beginning of this post goes into that whole "follow the money!!" thing in detail.

I leave you with one final suggestion of a movie you really should watch:

http://www.forksoverknives.com/


eridani

(51,907 posts)
42. HAES is having a convention
Sun Apr 22, 2012, 03:34 PM
Apr 2012

In 2010, NAAFA made history with our first International Health at Every Size® (HAES) Summit with much success. Now, we are pleased to announce the second International HAES Summit to be held at the Westin San Francisco Airport Hotel on Monday, August 6, 2012. This year's theme is "Equality at Every Size with HAES".

The NAAFA HAES Summit objectives are:

•To bridge HAES work that supports NAAFA's civil rights efforts.
•To allow individuals across disciplines to present and discuss their work and latest findings.
•To award a scholarship to a promising undergraduate or graduate student whose studies and research are focused on or embodies the HAES tenets.
The Summit will include:

•Keynote speaker Deb Burgard, PhD
•Panel Sessions on cutting edge topics from experts such as Toni Martin, MD, Cinder Ernst, CME, Lenny Husen, MD, Lalita Devi, MA, Deah Schwartz, PhD, Michelle Morris, PhD, RD, Fall Ferguson, JD and more.
•Networking Opportunities
•Evening Reception with a Poster Session and Idea Marketplace
Registration Fee Structure

•Professionals: $175.00; Early Bird Price of $150.00 until July 1st 2012
•Panelists: $125.00
•Students: $100.00; Early Bird Price of $75.00 until July 1st 2012 (limited to spots available, current student ID required)
Do you need a room? The Westin is prepared to take your reservation: https://www.starwoodmeeting.com/StarGroupsWeb/booking/reservation?id=1112156171&key=A819C

For more information about HAES and the NAAFA HAES Summit, and to register, visit: http://www.naafa.org

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
6. this is a tough issue and a really simple issue for me.
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:55 AM
Apr 2012

no one in my family has a weight issue or struggle. a couple may be able to get a little chunky, but not much more. no one is big junk eaters or mcdonalds or large quanties. and varying degrees of activity.

i do think weight has to do with genetics.

i also think weight has to do with behavior.

and i dont care. i will take care of me and what another is really has no reflection on WHO the person is.

there is pain all the way around for a person who is overweight. with self, with society and we lose focus there is a person. often times, especially with our youth, weight will be used as a shield to protect and hide from the world. with weight a person can say the reason there life is what it is cause of the weight. or the reason their life cannot be what they want is the weight.

it is all too complicated for me, so i put it in a category of irrelevant to me, when interacting with another

and yes, it is an area we allow ourselves to be the ugliest we are toward an overweight person. but, i think as a society as a whole, we are working to be allowed to be our ugly self more and more. without taking responsibility for it.



Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
7. I find it a reasonably simple issue...
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:11 AM
Apr 2012

My mum's obese, and when I look at sites that insist that health problems aren't connected to obesity, I look at my mum who's going to die if she doesn't change her diet and I'm looking at the reality that health problems are connected to obesity. I suspect that in quite rightfully trying to change public perceptions and discrimination against overweight and obese people, some people do take it to extremes and portray being overweight as almost being something we should all aim for because of the health benefits.

So it's really simple for me. Being obese isn't good for people's health. But society is harsh when it comes to obesity and do so much damage to the self-image of people that we so hypocritically claim we're trying to help. The Biggest Loser's one example of it. It's not made for an audience who cares about the people who go on it. It's made for an audience who have the mindset of sitting there and laughing at the fatties making fools of themselves on national tv. Yuck...

eridani

(51,907 posts)
12. If she changes her diet, what makes you think she'll weigh less?
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:11 PM
Apr 2012

The health problems connected to obesity are not caused by obesity. They are caused by environmental and genetic factors which ALSO cause obesity.

Systematic Chaos

(8,601 posts)
21. Probably the same thing which...
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:04 PM
Apr 2012

...helped nearly all of these people weigh less:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/index.html

Every last one of them is a real person and I've had the pleasure of communicating online with a few of them. I look forward to the day when my own name and story are added to that list.

In the meantime, please feel free to ignore the video I posted as well as the link above, and continue to deny the obvious.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
23. And where are the videos of those who did the same things and did not lose much?
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:14 PM
Apr 2012

On long hiking trips, I lose not so much as a single pound, despite the extra calories I expend. (And you just can't carry enough with you to overeat.) But I've hiked with at least one friend who had to pack two different sizes of clothing because of the weight she typically lost. So I'm bad and she's good?

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
38. That's what's happened in the past, plus I'd rather her try than die...
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 05:38 PM
Apr 2012

It's really that simple. I don't want my mother to die...

eridani

(51,907 posts)
41. If she adopts a diet that is healthy for those with insulin resistance
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:32 PM
Apr 2012

--her health will improve even if she doesn't lose a single ounce. There is not the slightest bit of evidence that weight loss is a proximate cause fpr better sugar control. What does lead to that is controlling intake of foods with a high glycemic index and being more physically active.

Clear proof that weight loss is not involved comes from studies which include frequent measurments of blood sugar and blood pressure. Improvements in sugar control and blood pressure begin immediately, well before it is even possible to detect weight loss. Furthermore, improvements in these crucial factors have not the slightest relationship to the amount of weight loss.

Ironically, those type IIs who find it the most difficult to lose weight are those that are the most likely to benefit from sticking to a healthy regimen.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
17. "as a society we are working to be allowed to be our ugly self more and more."
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 06:30 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Fri Apr 20, 2012, 09:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Exactly.

wildflower

(3,196 posts)
11. I seem to remember a study a while back...
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 03:51 PM
Apr 2012

It showed that the use of shame to get people to lose weight had the oposite effect. I think it's important to be compassionate and understanding however one feels about the relationship of weight, health, and diet.

It might also be interesting to explore the interaction of shame and women in general over history and its use to control our behavior.

On edit, I think this was the study: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-05-shame-tough-love-approach-obesity-backfire.html

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
36. it's an interesting question
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 03:33 PM
Apr 2012

Obviously loads of study has gone into methods to ... persuade? ... people to avoid risky behaviours of all kinds. Risky to themselves, and to others. Think of smoking, and the loud and graphic exhortations and dire warnings I look at (and don't see) every time I open a package of Canadian cigarettes.

Ontario's "Arrive Alive" anti-drunk driving media campaigns have been praised as an effective example. They don't chide or guilt -- they focus on offering alternatives.



Related links down the side show some oldies in the same series too -- "What if a Barenaked Lady asked you to drive sober? would that convince you?" And Shania Twain saying "call home, take a cab or stay overnight".

Shame and guilt actually has been effective to some extent in reducing drunk driving -- but hey, drunk driving is something people should feel ashamed and guilty about. Normal people won't choose to do something illegal that a majority of society strongly condemns. But offering people better choices in their own interests (to stay out of jail, or to stay alive) can pick up the slack.

"Make better choices" is the message that people who do want to alter their behaviour need, and what they especially need are the opportunities and alternatives that enable them to do that.

For people who do want to be healthier, it's as simple as eating a celery stick instead of eating a taco. Ha ha. If only it were that "simple".

I'm kind of muddling here, but I'm agreeing with you. Being overweight is not like driving drunk; it is nobody else's business, essentially, except to the extent that (as with smoking) a society takes an interest in the well-being of its members.

The anti-choice crowed realized some time back that trying to shame and guilt women into not having abortions just didn't work, and they switched to the "right-brain" tactic of appealing to women's self-image as strong and competent, to get the desired result. (That doesn't seem to be working out too well for them either, but hey, some things just aren't meant to be.)

So maybe the whole "big is beautiful" thing isn't totally misguided, if it counters the shame in some way. Unfortunately, I guess, it still focuses on the weight thing, itself. I'd rather see a message that went more along the lines of "your weight is not who you are", and helped people to get to know and appreciate themselves for who they actually are, and then to be good to themselves.

Shaming somebody isn't really the best way to get them to be good to themselves, which is really what we should want for someone who is overweight.

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