Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:18 PM Jan 2013

11 Preposterously Manly Fantasy Series

Thought this was kind of fun. I admit to being a fan of the 'Dark Tower' series, a Frantz Leiber fan and a Lord of the Rings fan, each for different reasons.

On the other hand, I despise the Robert Jorden 'Wheel of Time' series, I think I made it to book 6 before tossing it in, and have regulated the first three books of 'The Dresden Files to my 'boring' category on my reader. I didn't make it through the third one; I thought the series was supposed to get better. I haven't read Conan in years. The Thomas Covenent series I also read years ago, I remember the rape scene, I also remember a line to the effect 'I stole from her what she been taught all her life was a gift to be given' or something like that.


What makes a book series manly? Is it the action? The violence? The lack of female characters? Is it male wish-fulfillment? Misogyny? Or a combination of all these things?

I don't know the answer for sure, but I do know that these 11 fantasy series are all in their own unique way, very, very manly. This is not necessarily a good thing... but neither is it necessarily bad. Just grab your axe and your favorite loin cloth while we journey to the manliest realms fantasy fiction has to offer.


Oh and 'Manly' why is it you see that word and sexism inevitably follows? Hmmm

Oh sorry

http://io9.com/5977682/11-preposterously-manly-fantasy-series
20 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
11 Preposterously Manly Fantasy Series (Original Post) ismnotwasm Jan 2013 OP
I loved the Gor series. They were so ridiculously misogynist they were funny. TrogL Jan 2013 #1
I don't remember reading those ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #4
Cover of Tarnsman of Gor TrogL Jan 2013 #17
Looks like Jabba the Hut in there ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #18
link? nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #2
Here's one.. NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #3
thank you. i guess you are saying i could have done it, lol. thanks. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #5
Sorry about that, I fixed it ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #6
grinnin' seabeyond Jan 2013 #8
Oh heck no, I don't mind. Also, some of us are at work... NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #7
oh, so now seabeyond Jan 2013 #9
Bwahahaha! NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #10
Well, LOTR has Eowyn! longship Jan 2013 #11
I made the mistake of watching the first movie ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #14
Lisabeth is a feminist heroine. longship Jan 2013 #15
i am going to have to disagree with you on this. seabeyond Jan 2013 #16
Thank you for your valuable input. longship Jan 2013 #19
Ha, interesting stuff... redqueen Jan 2013 #12
I'm a lifelong fan ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #13
Ha, yes, that was my mistake... reading all that Heinlein. redqueen Jan 2013 #20

TrogL

(32,822 posts)
1. I loved the Gor series. They were so ridiculously misogynist they were funny.
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:21 PM
Jan 2013

The men were so musclebound I had no idea how they managed to walk.

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
4. I don't remember reading those
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:31 PM
Jan 2013

I love 'World of Tiers' by Phillip Jose Farmer, while the women in it have badass moments, it's another damsel in distress set. I hated 'Riverworld. I'm also a fan of Roger Zelazny, his sexism like so many of that period was more a product of his time that any attempts at overt 'manliness'.


Almost any of it is better than 'Twilight'

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
18. Looks like Jabba the Hut in there
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:34 PM
Jan 2013

Lets see, chained women, creepy monsters, Princess Leia had more clothes, of course did Hans Solo.

Don't like the submissive pose of the women but that's par I guess for these. What we have now in a lot of cover art with badass female protagonists are body contortions for sexual display---a difference of degree

Think George Lucus read the Gor series as a kid?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
8. grinnin'
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:35 PM
Jan 2013

you all are keeping us busy here. thanks. i wanted to see what they were. i have my own comments on guy books.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
7. Oh heck no, I don't mind. Also, some of us are at work...
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:33 PM
Jan 2013

...and might not be able to do searches or get to websites.

I was curious to read more myself and thought it easy enough to look it up and then give you a link!

longship

(40,416 posts)
11. Well, LOTR has Eowyn!
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:48 PM
Jan 2013

That alone saves the series, just as she saves the King, as he says.

But, like all middle age fiction, it's all men.

My favorite fictional character in this rough genre is Lisabeth Salander from Steig Larsson's Millenium trilogy. She is a petite, feminine heroine who is truly in control of her future and who siezes every opportunity to keep the upper hand against Men who Hate Women (Män Som Hatar Kvinnor), the Swedish title of the first novel in the series. In English, it was titled, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Swedish fiction tends toward the dark side, and Larsson's novels are no exception. However, he does seem to have a keen sense of feminist issues in this series. The Swedish language versions of the movies are well done, with Noomi Rapace fairly channeling Larsson's heroine in both physical and attitude. But the books satisfy, with only an occasional diversion, especially one notable side plot in the third novel, thankfully omitted in the Swedish movie, but unfortunately replaced by another. Gladly, that doesn't swallow the plot as much as it does in the book.

But, once you get through the first two novels, the side track will be a minor one and the stunning climax of the series is satisfying, especially in the novel.

Highly recommended.

Ignore the US remake (filmed by the same studio that filmed the Swedish series.)

BTW, the translation in the English dubbing in the Swedish films is better than the subtitles. But try the subtitles first to get the acting. Noomi Rapace is perfectly cast as Lisbeth.

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
14. I made the mistake of watching the first movie
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:32 PM
Jan 2013

Before reading the books. I started to read the books and the movie kind of screwed it up, so I decided to wait a while, so I can start with a clear head.

longship

(40,416 posts)
15. Lisabeth is a feminist heroine.
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:47 PM
Jan 2013

Albeit a somewhat dark one.

I was careful to read the books before watching the movies. We all know what movie producers do to the books to put them on celluloid, so to speak. The Swedish movies are no different.

However, in spite of the fact that the US production stays marginally closer to the novel, avoid it. The US production is hopelessly miscast and will likely not be going anywhere. We've seen the end of it with the first.

The Swedish language version has a continuity that does not betray Larsson's intent. This in spite of the inevitable plot changes and compression of the story. Yes, there are annoyances, but when you observe Noomi Rapace's characterizations and how she literally pours herself into the role, all is forgiven. In the climax of movie three she is incredible (no spoiler).

But the books are what drives Lisbeth's popularity.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
16. i am going to have to disagree with you on this.
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:21 PM
Jan 2013

Last edited Wed Jan 23, 2013, 09:14 AM - Edit history (1)

i didnt see her in the heroin role, nor a feminist nor the book as female positive.


Our Hero, Mikael Blomkvist, is what we might refer to as a “breast man”; when he is not hunting down depraved serial killers, he spends a lot of his time resting his head on the breasts of the lady he is sleeping with, kissing breasts, noting when ladies are not wearing bras, and commencing his sexual endeavors by “stretch[ing] out his hand to touch her breast.” Blomkvist comes into contact with a lot of breasts, because a lot of ladies want to sleep with him. At one point Blomkvist takes a time-out from his liaisons amoureuses to read the “sensational debut of a teenage feminist,” after which he wonders “whether he could be called a feminist if he wrote a novel about his own sex life in the voice of a high school student. Probably not.” Cute. (A not super-normatively-attractive middle-aged anti-fascist journalist writing a novel starring a “very good-looking” middle-aged anti-fascist journalist whom ladies line up to get breast-grabbed by does, apparently, get to be called feminist.)

And then, of course, there is feminist heroine Lisbeth Salander, the super hot (“with the right make-up her face could have put her on any billboard in the world”) damaged skinny white chick with a bunch of tattoos (“in spite of the tattoos and the pierced nose and eyebrows she was…well…attractive. It was inexplicable”) who kicks ass. Boy is that a new one in the universe: the super hot damaged skinny white chick with a bunch of tattoos who kicks ass. Lisbeth has a penchant for Doc Martens and body art (as we all know, an immediate indicator of profound emotional disturbance). She is, of course, the best computer hacker in Sweden, and she spends some time torturing the man who raped and tortured her. Also she hits a serial killer over the head with a golf club in an effort to save Blomkvist, with whom she has fallen in love despite her general inability to feel emotional connections with other people. That’s badassery for you. Despite these unassailable feminist credentials, Salander repeatedly describes herself, and is described by others, as a victim: “Bjurman had chosen her as a victim. That told her something about the way she was viewed by other people”; “…this was the natural order of things. As a girl she was legal prey”; “he had never been able to shake off the feeling that Lisbeth Salander was a perfect victim.”

We are also told a lot how much she hates herself: “She had no faith in herself”; “She was convinced that her skinny body was repulsive…She did not have much to offer.” After she is raped by her social worker, Salander goes home and eats some sandwiches, and Larsson makes the startling observation that “An ordinary person might have felt that her lack of reaction had shifted the blame to her–it might have been another sign that she was so abnormal that even rape could evoke no adequate emotional response.” What an adequate emotional response to rape might be is lost in translation. Hysterics? Fainting? She does not go to the police, also unlike a normal lady: “Salander was not like any normal person…Visiting the offices of those visor-clad brutes to file a report against Nils Bjurman for sexual assault did not even cross her mind.” (Ironically, one of the supposedly real-life statistics Larsson cites at the beginning of each part of the book asserts that “Ninety-two percent of women in Sweden who have been subjected to sexual assault have not reported the most recent violent incident to the police.” That’s an awful lot of abnormal women for one country.)

So, feminist heroine? Maybe not so much. Salander reads more like masturbation fodder for dudes who want to pretend they aren’t sleazy; Tomb Raider for manarchists, if you will. She hates herself, she “look[s] fourteen,” and she has “high cheekbones that [give] her an almost Asian look.” I don’t even want to touch that last one, honestly, but I am not the first person to note that there are some especially inappropriate tropes of Asian ladies currently circulating in our culture, and they are not, shall we say, feminist. Reading Salander as a feminist icon for our times is a pretty challenging endeavor. About the best thing you can say about her is that, unlike Larsson’s other characters, she at least has some depth.

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/07/29/the-girl-with-the-lots-of-creepy-disturbing-torture-that-pissed-me-off-on-stieg-larsson/








Secondly - this is a book very much written by a man about women. Everything about this book screms I HAVE A PENIS. From the start we know that Lisabeth is pretty much willing to throw down her clothes and fuck you senseless. We know that she is irrevocably damaged to the point where you feel a like your going to barf so hard it comes out of your nose. She's skinny to the point where she is described by a number of characters as being anorexic looking. She herself knows she is no match physically for any bodily attack she might find herself under. She's tiny and frail and broken. Incomplete. Not a whole person, but a damaged girl waiting for the right kind of care and attention to be bestowed upon her. What a fucking load of misogynistic crap.

*

Fifthy - Never have I read a book that degrades women so much. They are beaten and raped and manipulated to the point where I wanted to scream. The low opinion the author seems to have for women just leaks out of the pages. They're either weak, or frivolous, or always ready to drop their pants to fuck anything that walks. the violence in this book is extremely explicit and graphic. They are almost gratuitous. They are grossly mishandled.

Seventhly - I get the feeling that I am supposed to be sexually attracted to Mikael. In fact, I found him rather tiresome. I have no interest in the financial well being of large compaines, nor trying to plot their demise by investigating rumors of tomfoolery. The females in the book existed too as to solidify his sexual prowess and to let us know that even though every other male in the book under 70 was a misogynistic fuckhead, the he was the nice guy who would make love to you only if you wanted him to. He existed merely as a means to an end, the token hot guy who helps the damaged broken girl and maybe shows her that love, yes love, is really all you need. Pass me that bucket whilst I blow chunks of feminist rage. Reading about violently disturbing rape scenes which serve no purpose to the storyline makes me sad. It had little to no literary purpose except to further cement the fact that this book was far from a feminist read.

Eleventh - This book was prime time fucked up. I won't be reading the sequel. I've had quite enough of this anti feminist, misogynistic shit. Now, I'm going to read a book about a princess, and hope the vivid vile images retreat into thin air. And yes, I deleted the e-book when I finished reading. I am rather sad I christened my Kobo with it to be quite honest.

http://thecrookedshelf.blogspot.com/2011/12/in-which-girl-with-dragon-tattoo-makes.html


lots of people agree with you. not everyone.





redqueen

(115,103 posts)
12. Ha, interesting stuff...
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:57 PM
Jan 2013

I started noticing the unpleasantness found in so much fantasy and sci fi in my late teens and stopped reading it.



That Gor series sounds positively horrifying.

the fantastic (although occasionally-invaded-by-aliens) land of Gor, which happensto be chock fullof women who enjoy being dominated by men, sexually and otherwise. Thiswould be somewhat lessicky if the books didn't suggest female slavery was actually a pretty okay thing, or if the women didn't end up publicly humiliated in some fashion so much,or even just if the womendidn't mind being beatenallthe time. At any rate,whenDaw Books decided to stop publishing the Gorseries,author Normansuggested it was because of a vast feminist conspiracy in the publishing world, so… yeah.

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
13. I'm a lifelong fan
Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:20 PM
Jan 2013

But some stuff I simply can't abide. Like Heinlein.

You have great authors like CJ Cheeryh and Octavia Butler, although Cheeryh doesn't self identify as a feminist, her books have interesting gender twists. Butler was definitely a feminist, is incredible.

Fantasy is more problematic these days. Older fantasy is inherently sexist, some of the newer stuff seems deliberately sexist. ' A lot of 'urban fantasy' are basic rewrites of bodice rippers only with vampires and werewolves, but often written by women. I do like Lilith St Crows books as well as Kat Richardsons 'Greywalker' series. (That last because its set in Seattle, and she kind of creeps me out with her ability to describe innocent neighborhoods as scary)

I spent a year reading only good women authors, as was suggested somewhere and that helped, because I've always felt that science fiction is a little like time travel, a vision of the future

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
20. Ha, yes, that was my mistake... reading all that Heinlein.
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 11:44 AM
Jan 2013


I loved Larry Niven and Anne McCaffrey, but if there was much sexism in their work it was more the kind I was used to seeing everywhere. Heinlein made it such a main feature though, that from that point on, any time a female character was described and there was too much focus on how patriarchally-pleasing her body, hair, style or mannerisms were, it just made me sick. I just couldn't deal with it and it would dilute my enjoyment of the rest of the writing.
Latest Discussions»Alliance Forums»History of Feminism»11 Preposterously Manly F...