I use to believe/think that men could be feminists

[boston bean]

not so much anymore.

Mostly because in my experience, they think the self proclaimed title entitles them to tell women what feminism/feminists/WOMEN should be focusing on, protesting, talking about, etc.

PS I now prefer to call men who are supportive of feminism, feminist allies.

[seabeyond]

1. exactly BB. it is the last year of listening to men tell me what i am suppose to think, feel and

say pertaining to women as they declare they can because they are feminists, yet only embrace womens rights and not social equities, has had me coming to the same opinion as you have.

[Little Star]

2. Isn't the word "meninist" what men who support feminism call themselves now?

Here is why I ask about the word meninist:

MENININST: MEN SUPPORTING THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT

Meninist is a global organization of men that believe in and support the feminist principles of women's political, social and economic equality. The following represents the platform we believe in (but the need for equal rights for women should be self-evident in this day and age). This page hopes to convey that a growing movement of men recognize and support the women's movement, for the benefit of women, men and all of humanity.

More here:
http://www.feminist.com/resources/links/men.htm

[Deep13]

277. Sounds like a made up word for men...

...who are too insecure to label themselves anything that starts with "femin--."

[Little Star]

285. It doesn't sound that way to me. I felt it was preceptive and a clever way to...

to show support for feminism without calling themselves feminists.

[redqueen]

3. That is a path many feminists have been on.

I went through the same process, as did so many other feminists I talk with.

One thing that one male ally said during one of the many raging debates about this issue really sticks with me. He said, in a nutshell, that the idea that a man's right to name himself in the context of the struggle for women's liberation was something men would argue and fight over spoke volumes about their actual thoughts about recognizing women's rights... that the refusal to listen to women, and to seek out women who would champion their rejection of the term 'ally', was itself indicative of the need for a separate term.


LOL, I just remembered there was a poll here asking about this, and men's opinions were not excluded. Says it all, really.

[boston bean]

5. this is what spawned my thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022278199

[redqueen]

7. Yeah.

I like your direct, no nonsense posts there.

I also like bettyellen's post about waiting for the other shoe to drop... again.

[hlthe2b]

38. I saw that early this morning, cringed, thought about responding, then lost the thread...

Somehow, when, in the very first sentence (the subject line, in fact), the poster felt the need to impress on everyone that the problem was with "women"... I think he defeated his case. Oh, brother.....

[jollyreaper2112]

4. Hello, broad brush! Meet generalization

I used to believe that it was bull to judge everyone by the actions of a few, or even the few by the actions of most of "their kind." I still do.

Men can be jerks. So can women. There can also be gems of either gender.

Yes, it's condescending for, say, white men to tell others what they're allowed to feel and what's foribidden to think. That's basis of the whole problem in the first place.

But I think it's also ridiculous to tell me what I can or can't be or think because I'm a white man. If I say something like "Yeah, I support equal rights for broads," then you have a clear-cut case of me contradicting myself and it's valid to call me on it. Barring that, what basis do you have to say anything about it? It's valid to say "Many of the men I've spoken with who claim to be feminists don't really understand what they mean or their actions fall short of their words." No broad brush there.

[actslikeacarrot]

6. i came here via another thread in GD...

...and I'm going to say the same thing here. Your thoughts and deeds matter, not so much if you can call yourself a feminist or not. I guess what I'm saying is if women want to call men feminist allies instead of just feminist who cares?

[redqueen]

8. If a sizeable number of feminists prefer the term male ally, why is that a big deal?

Exactly.

That is exactly the right question to ask.

[boston bean]

10. Once again, the true cognitive dissonance of some males

is astounding.

It's like they can't even afford one place for women to have autonomy, or control over the movement.

I'm just not ready to let feminism be run by a bunch of men, or have them speaking for me or women. That's gone on long enough. Women will speak for women, thank you very much...

[jollyreaper2112]

25. Ok, now I see the original thread

It's not so much about autonomy. What's happening is one person deciding how a word should be defined and applying it to the entire movement as a universal. Absolutist, confrontational language ruins the chance for meaningful dialogue.

[jollyreaper2112]

12. the problem as I see it

Is that it sets up an antagonized playing field. While I might be a beneficiary of white priviledge (even the most broke-ass poor person in this country has it better than most of the world and is a beneficiary of 'murican priviledge), it's not the sort of thing that's easy to appreciate from the inside, especially with all the examples of those who have got it far better than me and have advanced far more.

So, the average white male schlub doesn't really feel like lord and master. White dudes are the majority CEO's of all the biggest companies, dominate in congress, hold most of the wealth? They ain't cutting us a check as a member of the club. It doesn't feel good to be lumped in with that sort when the stereotypes are flying.

Can people mistake themselves for being with the good guys while actually still contributing to the problem? Of course. But people who are being attacked will get defensive and any chance for meaningful dialogue is ruined.

[boston bean]

13. Feminism is the struggle for equal rights for women.

not poor schlubly old white men.

Even those poor old schubly white men have more autonomy of their bodies than ANY woman here in America.

Feminism is for womens equal rights. there is nothing wrong in stating that. It's not a catch all for every single unfair dynamic that happens in society.

The advocacy is for women. I say it proudly.

That doesn't mean that feminists or I don't see other prejudices, like class inequity, racism etc.

[seabeyond]

16. a couple three things. first,

you address the one male while there is a number of women that replied to you, yet you did not as of yet, feel the need to talk to them.

second, in your post addressing the man, you addressed males issues and what this means to a male who may not have the white privilege and feel the want of being put in the group. so again, it is about men, and not women, which is a womans movement.

and lastly, you immediately start with .... women speaking, ergo hostile. we get that often and too much and are use to it. if we speak out and a man does not like what she says, she is a b.... or emotional, hysterical, hostile.

so you really presented three more example of exactly what we are talking about.

edit... gonna have to take back off number one. since refreshing.

[boston bean]

18. good one again! Thanks Sea!

[jollyreaper2112]

33. I don't even know who's male or not

I'm not reading the user profiles first. But it's obvious that nothing productive can come of this thread. People already know what they believe and hackles are too raised for communication to happen.

[seabeyond]

36. really? i think a lot of women as speaking out on the issues, expressing themselves well. i do not

see hackles or attacks. but surely.... women can express how they feel about this issue, when it comes to a movement that is about women, without being ignored or dismissed that their hackles are up and no good comes out of the conversation.

we have had this conversation in the past with men. it is not new. and i gained tons from it. as did a couple of men. insight. that is always valued. but.... those couple men that started at one end, and evolved actually listened to the women.

[seabeyond]

9. "what basis do you have to say anything about it?" a womans movement and we are women, hear us roar?

the point being... is many men will also say it is not necessarily about women. taking the whole movement away from women.

what right do women have to say anything about the womens movement? over a man?

that would be one of the indicators we speak of.

[boston bean]

11. LOL sea! good post!

[jollyreaper2112]

14. That's a different issue

If some men are pushing women aside and saying "This is what you need to think, this is what you need to be." That's a transgression. Those men should be critiqued. If white guys try to tell black people who they should run a civil rights movement, that's patronizing.

Those who haven't done anything like that? They haven't done anything wrong. Don't lump everyone together.

I'm not a fan of abortion but am pro-choice in that it's not any of my business to tell someone else how to handle their business, not when it's only their business. I think it's especially a woman's issue because they've got more skin in the game. But I'd also say the "they" is not a monolithic gender block but individuals, one and all. It's all personal choice and no collective, even if they're all women, should tell an individual woman how she should do it. It's choice. Have the baby and give up for adoption? Fine. Have an abortion? Fine. Here's help, whichever way you decide.

[jollyreaper2112]

17. uh

Maybe I missed the news story. Is there a specific controversy that this is regarding or a general trend? Where are men taking over the debate? Is this a controversy on an academic, national, or local level?

I missed out on the whole Richard Dawkins controversy the first time around when he said some astoundingly dumb things. I only found out about it when it was referenced in the middle of another sexism kerfluffle. Both of those were cases of guys mansplaining things to women and understandable flashpoints.

Is this concerning a specific incident or a universal critique?

[boston bean]

19. Are you a man?

Look in the mirror. Sea has stated things perfectly.

[seabeyond]

22. you are right, we may not be being fair and you may not have an understanding because

you have not seen what we have the last year on du and elsewhere.





this cartoon is a good illustration and has to do with the second and third wave feminism that so many of us had to educate ourselves to. we have men on du that declare themselves feminist, but they hang with the third wave cause after all they are into strippin and porn. but more, they do not believe in pornification, objectification, sexism necessarily that men are subjected also so meh, sexualization, privilege or patriarchy.

BUT... these men declare themselves feminist.

then they continue to show their feminism by attacking us women that discuss these issues as being prudes, anti sex, frigid, jealous, ugly.... you get my gest. attacking our sexuality to shut us up, humiliate, put us in our place.

i think watching this on du, many of us have started questioning males roles as we are being told that the feminsit movement is not about women, but ALL people. which women are generally put at the back of the bus.

so, you walk into this, probably not aware of all the shit that is really going on.

[unblock]

49. but how does changing terminology help?

i mean, change the cartoon to have the villain saying "i am a feminist ally" and you still have the same problem.

whatever terms involved, there will always be people proclaiming themselves to be one thing when in fact they are another (whether they are deliberately misrepresenting themselves, deluded, ignorant, or merely mistaken).

[jollyreaper2112]

21. here's how I read it

"Can men be feminists?"

Put another way:

"Is it possible for men not to be assholes or does that come with the penis?"

It's needlessly divisive abscent a specific provocation.

Now if the question was more along the lines of "Was Isaac Asimov sexist?" there's a lot of material for discussion there. I'd had no idea of his notoriety in the scifi convention circuit but I don't even want to call him a dirty old man because that makes it sound sort of sweet and playful like Benny Hill. (There's a whole 'nother debate about whether sweet and playful is really creepy and horrifying and how you see Benny tells about the era you were raised in.) Asimov came across more like Aqualung oggling schoolgirls in the park, creepy and gross.

There's good room for discussion there, how someone who might see himself in a favorable light could have delusions. Or in Asimov's case, I think he was aware of his double-standards and didn't really care.

The point I'm getting at is don't lump people togehter. Should women be in charge of a women's movement? Sure. Should men be telling them what to think? No. If a man claims to be a supporter and his actions don't match his words, point it out. But don't say a man is incapable of being a supporter simply on account of gender.

[seabeyond]

23. at this point i have to ask. sincerely. why do you "need" the title?

i dont. i dont need to be a member of the black movement or the gay movement. but know.... i am supporting them one hundred percent with my voice. now, that means shuttin the fuck up, listening to what they say, respecting them.... and using my voice in support. i would never presume to be in the group.

[redqueen]

28. "that means shuttin the fuck up, listening to what they say, respecting them...

and using my voice in support. i would never presume to be in the group."


Spot on.

[unblock]

53. offhand i can't think of a term for a pro-black black or a pro-homosexual homosexual

so i'm not clear on why feminism should mean both woman and pro-woman.

i don't disagree that the distinctions among the various groups are important, but just as a matter of terminology, why not let some terms clarify gender or race or orientation and other terms clarify the political/social agenda/worldview?

[seabeyond]

58. i have already told you why as have others. as i said to another poster, .... i will not roll my

eyes, or challenge a man that wants to declare himself a poster. it was brought up, once again, by a man asking women for their opinion. we gave it. listen, dont, that is your right.

[ismnotwasm]

34. Are you a feminist?

[Little Star]

15. No they can't because they are not women. They can be supportive though....

This says it better than I ever could:

Can Men be Feminists?
It is crucial for men to be a part of feminist agency. If feminism is to attain its goal of liberating women, men must be a part of the struggle. Indeed, men probably bear more of the responsibility for ending oppression of women since patriarchal men have been the main perpetrators of that very oppression. But can men do this by becoming feminists?

Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (i.e a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis.

http://www.nomas.org/node/122

They can never truly understand because, like it or not, they are part of the patriarchy. They have walked a different life path than women have. To be fair I could never truly know what it's like to be a man either.

[redqueen]

27. Thanks for posting that.

Sums it up well.

[Little Star]

42. Thank you, you were the one who originally brought that to...

my attention some while back. It does say it all regarding this topic. Your a good teacher!!!!

[Deep13]

279. I don't have to have first hand knowledge to have a good idea about something.

And as long as I'm on board with the social movement then I'm on board. If I understand and agree with gender theory, then I do. Honestly, there are an awful lot of women who are not feminists and, generally unknowingly, defend the patriarchal power structure.

Following your logic, I can't be a desegregationist because I'm white. Yet I oppose racial inequality.

[gollygee]

20. This is where I am at too

Feminism is a women's movement, and it needs to be controlled and defined by women. As soon as men start calling themselves feminists, they want to define what a "real feminist" believes (as in "real feminists aren't bothered by X, they put their focus on Y&quot and that kind of thing. There are lots of wonderful men who are allied with feminism, but they are supporters of feminism, not feminism itself.

[seabeyond]

24. and i think another thing a man has to be honest about, and some women also. are they feminists?

or are they supporters of womens rights? because for me and what i have learned, feminism itself goes beyond just womens legislative rights.

[gollygee]

26. Well by "rights" I don't mean just legislative rights

but I see your point.

[unblock]

29. how does terminology help? now you can object to male jerks calling themselves "feminist allies".

it would seem "male feminist" would work and be less exclusionary, if you cared to make that distinction.

if the point is to be exclusionary, this would make sense to me only if you equate "feminism" with "separatist feminism".

[redqueen]

30. Separatist feminism means no socializing with men.

There are very few separatist feminists.

There are lots of feminists who do not think men can be feminists.

There are lots of male allies who agree. See post 15.

[unblock]

41. i don't disagree that there are different concepts involved.

and that there's a relevant, material difference between a pro-woman man and a pro-woman woman.
i don't think we're disagreeing on the concepts involved. i agree there that i'll never fully understand a woman's experience no matter how many migraines i get

what i'm wondering about is the terminology. it's easy to clarify gender where important. so to me it only makes sense as a time-saver in the sense that gender is so often relevant that it's more convenient, linguistically, to have a single term that specifies both pro-woman and female and to have a more awkward term for pro-woman males ("feminist allies&quot rather than to have the term "feminist" include all genders and then need to constantly clarify ("woman feminist&quot .

except it doesn't seem to me that one needs to constantly clarify because gender is usually clarified. it's the first thing people talk about even before a child is born (do you want a boy or a girl?); it's often obvious from one's name and almost always obvious from one's appearance, etc. so by the time one gets to discussing feminism, the genders involved are usually well-known.

anyway, i'll continue to fight for equality for all and fairness among genders regardless of what you call me

[MuseRider]

31. Nope, not now and not ever.

They are not women. They may be sympathetic and supportive but until they have lived the life of a woman and know personally exactly what it is we deal with and are looking for they can not be a feminist.

I helped birth a state wide gay rights organization in my state. I started from the ground floor and we built it and it is still going strong. I am not gay therefore I stopped calling myself a gay rights activist. I am that but being straight made that awkward. I can't answer for a gay person, I can't even know exactly what they would say so I call myself a gay rights ally and am perfectly OK with that. It is an honorable thing to be and I am very proud of it.

Men, you are men. We love your support and understanding but you are not living the life of a woman. You are therefore an ally. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact it is essential to the fight we are in. The term ally is honorable and allies have been needed in every civil rights fight there has ever been. You are standing up in your own crowd of privilege and saying no more. That is a very honorable and good place to be. Please accept that. We have to run our fight and men, bless your hearts if you want to work with us, always try to run the show. It is part of the privilege we are fighting and you don't even see yourselves doing it.

[seabeyond]

35. you are not living the life of a woman. You are therefore an ally.

others have said this. but it cannot be said enough. men that are totally supportive have a tough time with some issues. until they let go of the battle or constructs and allow that they may not understand. then they gain insight. good men, totally on our side. but, we face this often enough. and then have to battle to be heard. that in and of itself is exhausting.

[MuseRider]

37. Exhausting is right.

We have fought for so long that for many of us it is hard to let an ally say something wrong and then correct it with kindness. It is damned hard for me, especially when it should be so painfully obvious if they truly understood.

The very most invaluable thing for me in the LGBT rights arena was that I was a total novice at doing this kind of thing and told the others in the group that from the very start. I kept my mouth shut until I felt I knew the very basic needs and found something I could work on. They were above and beyond patient with me when I was learning. I had no idea that anything I said that was totally supportive but was coming from a privileged perspective would be viewed as a privileged view and at times insulting. My learning curve was huge. It is still something I work on and am loathe to make statements and refuse the press until I have called and spoken with the group leadership. It is confusing but the attempt to learn before speaking is a must.

We demand the respect that we can handle this. That we need help is not because we can't handle ourselves but that every civil rights group always needs allied help, but allied help who respects that they are not in charge.

[ismnotwasm]

32. I think there are well meaning men who try to use the label

In a thoughtful, non-confrontational way. They listen, they hear. But they don't always understand privilege. Then you get the 'yeah but' or 'you should' of the conversation. Frankly I'm not sure why men wish to self identify as feminist. Josh Whedon did at one point I thought and as much as I liked 'firefly' and 'Buffy' I didn't consider them feminist.

Strong women
Whedon gives his mother, Lee Stearns, a feminist, credit for inspiring his worldview. When Roseanne Barr asked him how he could write so well for women, he replied, "If you met my mom, you wouldn't ask."[88]
The character Kitty Pryde from the X-Men comics was an early model for Whedon's strong teenage girl characters: "If there's a bigger influence on Buffy than Kitty, I don't know what it was. She was an adolescent girl finding out she has great power and dealing with it."[89] Kitty Pryde was one of the main characters in Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men.
Whedon was honored at an Equality Now benefit in 2006: "Honoring Men on the Front Lines",[90] and his fans raised a considerable amount of money in support of the organization.[91] In his acceptance speech, Whedon famously said that, in response to why he writes such strong women characters, he says, "Because you're still asking me that question."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joss_Whedon

Anecdotally, men most supportive of women's issues identify as allies. Express their lack of experiace from a female POV, and move forward.

[jeff47]

39. I think excluding people based on sex might not be the best approach

to fix excluding people based on sex.

[seabeyond]

40. what is a man being excluded from but the title of woman. he is not excluded from the cause

nor having a voice in supporting women and their rights. so what is this exclusion?

[jeff47]

43. You answered your own question.

You are saying men can't use that label. That men are lesser people, when it comes to this particular term. They need a caveat like "ally" because they can never qualify for the 'real' term.

I fully understand you think you're coming at this from a positive angle. I just don't think it's a good idea to exclude any people from anything, based on their gender.

[seabeyond]

45. you need the title? why? yes, men are excluded from being a woman. that is an issue for you?

if a man need a title in order to stand with women on our issues, than i really have issues with that man. yes.

[jeff47]

56. No, I don't need anything.

I'm saying it feels like you're doing the exact same thing that resulted in the words "man" and "woman". And we've had to spend a lot of time and effort getting people to consider those two words equal.

In my opinion, this is a bad idea because it's repeating the same mistakes from the past - just this time the opposite side is making the mistake.

But as I've said elsewhere, this is just one person's opinion. Ignore it or not as you see fit. I'm not going to change my personal beliefs about the equality of the sexes based on word use.

[seabeyond]

59. imo, wrong. it is a WOMAN movement. it is not about man/woman. it is ALL about women.

that need mens support. not direction or guidance. but support. again, if you do not agree, that is fine. i think we have clearly pointed out the issues.

[boston bean]

46. Am I a lesser person, because I am an LGBT rights ally and not LGBT?

Is my voice any less important or not welcomed?

No, I don't think so. But I'm not LGBT, so I am an ally. and you are not a woman so you are an ally. thank you!

Crimminy, what is wrong with a space that women control to work on issues that affect women?

[jeff47]

50. LGBT is identity, such as calling yourself a woman.

And there are LGBT people who don't support LGBT rights, just like there are women who don't support feminism.

So calling yourself an LGBT ally isn't terribly descriptive - you could be an ally of the Log Cabin Republicans. You are supporting LGBT rights, which has no requirement to be LGBT, nor requires a special label to indicate you're straight.

Crimminy, what is wrong with a space that women control to work on issues that affect women?

Why would that require men not use the term 'feminist'?

Saying "We have a word you can't have" is inherently exclusionary.

And again, this is just one guy's opinion. I have zero control over other people's language use.

[boston bean]

51. It is not exclusionary. Feminism is a womens movement.

Not a mens right movement.

Not a movement for men to control.

Men have not lived life as a woman.

If men weren't so damned adamant in telling feminists what to think, how to behave, what's important to them, what shouldn't be, then maybe this would be a moot point.

However, a man claiming to be a feminist whilst telling women how to feel and what to do is anti-feminist.

[jeff47]

54. The movement doesn't require a particular gender by it's supporters

If men weren't so damned adamant in telling feminists what to think, how to behave, what's important to them, what shouldn't be, then maybe this would be a moot point.

Isn't the idea to be better than the past?

However, a man claiming to be a feminist whilst telling women how to feel and what to do is anti-feminist.

Yep. Which is why I've been trying to make abundantly clear that this is just my opinion on the matter. Feminists will do what they will do. But I'm still free to express my opinion, even if it's ignored.

[seabeyond]

60. do you get that all of a sudden the feminist moved from womens rights to ALL peoples rights?

how do you think that happened? do you think maybe it was a couple of decades of men as part of the movement, moved it from women to all people. we are now directed it is not a womans movement. that our time and energy must be spent on everyone's rights. how do you think that happened. and women are saying, no fuckin' way. we are being attacked on all fronts. we are addressing women, not everyone. cause ultimately, women are put on the back burner and we have seen it too often. we are just saying, no.

[jeff47]

69. So men must be excluded then?

To me, your post looks like: "Men have corrupted our movement and must be excluded from it". Implying the "allies" should shut up and do what they're told.

Not saying you meant it that way, that's just how it comes off to me.

Couldn't the movement be re-focused regardless of the terminology?

[gollygee]

101. This is the exact problem

You want to re-focus the whole movement. But you should not be deciding what the focus of the movement is. Women should decide that.

[jeff47]

141. I'm not. I'm asking why converting feminist to a discriminatory term is necessary to do so. (nt)

[gollygee]

252. I think the term is misused in many cases

Feminism is all about women. Only women. Just women. And it should be only about women, and led by women, and defined by women. Because it's our movement.

[boston bean]

44. No one is excluding you. We welcome you as an ally. Thank you for being an ally!

I'm an ally to a lot of different groups, and proud of it. Hope my voice helps and creates change for the better.

I'm sure you feel the same way!

[jeff47]

47. The fact that "ally" must be added is exclusionary

The full title is not available, because I have a Y chromosome.

I'm not in any position to dictate terminology or anything. I just don't think it's a good idea to demand each gender have it's own term.

[seabeyond]

48. "I'm not in any position to dictate terminology or anything." correct. you are not in the position

to dictate. it is not your movement. you are right.

and THAT is what is bothering men. and THAT is the issue women have and are expressing yet not being heard.

[jeff47]

52. No, what's bothering me is we're repeating the same problems we caused by having men and women

have different terms, pronouns, and everything else in our language that helps perpetuate misogyny. I don't think doing that again is a good idea.

[boston bean]

55. Ah no. Feminism is a womens movement.

Men can be allies and friends and helpful and fully welcomed.

If there weren't so many men "feminists" out there telling us how we're doing it wrong, we might be able to move past this.

I've run across many male "feminists" who in my opinion, don't have the first understanding of what feminism is. Yet use the term to dictate to women the how, when, where, and why.

To have men doing that in the feminist movement is anything but feminist.

Now, if you want to stop telling us what to do and how to feel, and start to understand what feminists are saying, the issue in my mind, could be revisited.

As you read in the OP, I once felt differently.

[jeff47]

72. Why do you have to listen to such men?

Regardless of how they describe themselves, couldn't you just ignore the men who you feel are wrong?

Now, if you want to stop telling us what to do and how to feel, and start to understand what feminists are saying, the issue in my mind, could be revisited.

You know, I've made myself abundantly clear, that this is just my opinion. Thanks for this "Shut up and go away". How better to show the non-divisiveness of this plan.

[boston bean]

75. Thank you for you direction. Have a good night.

[jeff47]

78. Why, exactly, is that "direction"?

It's someone trying to understand why you're doing what you're doing. Yet you take it as trying to give orders?

[seabeyond]

57. i do not agree. and i am sorry that this is your perception. what i have found is in order to

get male support we needed to give them the title. in the last couple decades as they have held up the "title" they have failed in the support. i am not talking about womens rights. i am talking about social equity. and i think in them holding up the title it has allowed them to help create the problems we face today, which is more sexism and misogyny than what we experienced a couple decades ago.

that men feel an entitlement to the title without experiencing what we do is a big misstep.

you can call yourself whatever you want. i will not roll my eyes, or challenge you. it is yours to do with as you like.

but, once again, on du the question came up, by a man, calling out a woman that dared roll her eyes at him. and women have expressed what we feel and think. and the same men has dismissed what is being said, cause of their demand to hold the title.

i do not have a lot of interest with the man that would let a title effect his support of womens rights.

that simple.

take it or leave it.

i expressed to you my challenges with this, my lessons learned over the years on our progressive board of men that claim to be feminists and then tell us what we think are wrong and attack our sexuality to shame, humiliate, degrade and demean and shut us up.

[jeff47]

74. I suppose a large part of the difference of opinion

is I've never felt the title was necessary. Equality has always seemed the right thing, so I never felt the need to seek out the title to prove it.

Thus I probably see less power in the label than other people do, so my opinion is going to be more colored by the "you can't have this because you're a man" aspect.

my lessons learned over the years on our progressive board of men that claim to be feminists and then tell us what we think are wrong and attack our sexuality to shame, humiliate, degrade and demean and shut us up.

I suppose my question here would be "Why do you have to listen to them?".

For example, we're told over and over again by right-wingers what it "means" to be liberals. They're wrong. We don't change liberalism to fit their opinions. Why should women bend feminism to fit the opinions of such men just because they label themselves "feminist"?

And to be abundantly clear, I'm trying to understand. I'm not trying to say "You're wrong!! You have to do this!" I'm saying, "This part doesn't feel right, so what am I missing?"

[bettyellen]

97. Hi Jeff.... Maybe part of what you have missed can be filled in by reading

Below. Here's a classic example of a fella coming out of nowhere telling is how to do it right. Do we believe from his posts that he's actually been a partner in this fight? I can't say that I can give him the benefit of the doubt. He's a similar animal to all the trolls who put Dem or Hippie in their name to get cred in order to disrupt. Most frequently men who want to use the label feminist, want it so they can point out to us what we are doing wrong. And very often, same as you did to a small extent, they tell us we are doing it wrong because it offends them in some small way. And we all need to stop the conversation and focus on their offended sensibilities. Yesterday it was a guy who was upset a woman years ago said she didn't need his help with a door. And a kid upset a "hot girl" had her choice of who to date and.... (Not sure what his point was)
The sad thing is, jerks like this have made women rethink whether its wise to give men the "equal voice" they seem to think they deserve. Because that voice, most often only pops in to say he knows best.
And men never see the irony in this. Never.
Which is kind of amazing- and proves the point.
Go on and look at any thread about feminism, and the dissenting voices follow this pattern without fail. We're not here to put men's bruised egos first. Y'all have to accept that as part of the deal.
Hope that helps!

[NoOneMan]

99. fella below?

Me? You suspect I am a "troll" because I found the anecdotally-backed generalization as divisive and a redefinition of feminism? Or someone else?

[bettyellen]

102. I'm not going to try and educate you. It's clear you were never an ally.

Nice try!

[NoOneMan]

103. So you would rather make baseless personal claims than engage in a discussion about the topic?

So I take it you did mean me. I object to the original generalization and divisiveness, so its easier to label me an "enemy" that debat the honey trap.

Well, I'm not going to tell you how to run your movement of course.

[jeff47]

138. Except that doesn't actually answer my question

I have no illusions that there aren't men seeking to continue to control women, and some of them will claim to be feminists.

What I don't understand is why women listen to them. We don't listen to people with "Dem" or "Hippie" in their name when they demand social security cuts and war - we quickly see through the ruse and ignore their opinions. Why not do the same thing with pseudo-feminists?

The sad thing is, jerks like this have made women rethink whether its wise to give men the "equal voice" they seem to think they deserve. Because that voice, most often only pops in to say he knows best.

My question is why they were given a voice at all.

Just saying he's a feminist doesn't mean you have to give him the time of day. If he's an asshole, it really doesn't matter what he calls himself. He's an asshole. So once his asshole nature is obvious, why listen to him?

Why demand feminist become a gendered term instead?

[bettyellen]

166. Because its s waste of time trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff?

And that's pretty much what these disrupters want to do.

Can I ask you if you actually believe that men can provide equal or better advisement than we already have? Why can't they accept our agency here and trust if they're truly supportive we are willing to listen?

What's with the need for equal status when we know that they don't have -never will have- the experiences that would inform them as to what needs to be done?

Why can't you let it go? Seems like a game of gotcha, more than the desire to make a strong contribution.

[jeff47]

187. Wouldn't they just ignore the woman-only rule?

Or call themselves allies while still doing the same crap?

Can I ask you if you actually believe that men can provide equal or better advisement than we already have?

Gender and good advice are not related.

Why can't they accept our agency here and trust if they're truly supportive we are willing to listen?

Because if we are to be your supporters, we have to understand what you're doing and why. And to understand, we're going to have to ask questions. And those questions are going to have to be somewhat confrontational in order to take apart the issue well enough to understand.

What's with the need for equal status when we know that they don't have -never will have- the experiences that would inform them as to what needs to be done?

Because it's taken an awful lot of time and effort to weaken the power of existing gendered words. Adding a new one seems illogical. And since we can't have the same experiences, we have to ask questions to understand.

Why can't you let it go?

Because feminism is critically important to me. Not because I will suffer discrimination, but because equality is the right thing to do.

And on a personal level, my mother, sister, wife have had to deal with it. Plus my wife and I are going to have to help at least one daughter navigate through it as she grows up.

[bettyellen]

201. I can't agree that men will ever fully understand

And we spend a lot of time educating them.
But we don't all have the same experiences and are working this shit out with our own with a multitude of women who experience different facets.
It's just not going to ever fully resonate with a man if he doesn't live it. It's impossible to walk in our shoes, no matter your good intentions.
And I understand that's what you have. But I also understand if you do believe in equal rights and social equity for women you'll respect the fact that you will never feel or know the impacts we do, and be mindful of that. That you will ask for greater understanding before being dismissive. That you won't take a "little knowledge" and make it that dangerous thing. Would that most men took that approach, we'd not need this discussion.
Given the reality that way too "feminist" men latch on to a small things in order to discredit all feminists, it's neither wise or necessary to give them this. And the basic truth is, they just don't have the relevant experience for the task.
I imagine we can agree to disagree, and I'm happy to be fairly certain you're not going to be hurt so much that you'll turn on all feminists, as so many men threaten to.
You have learned, as have we, that you can't have everything you want. When the world is a fair place, maybe we all can. It's good to know you'd like to help!

[jeff47]

208. We seem to be using slightly different words to mean the same thing.

It's just not going to ever fully resonate with a man if he doesn't live it

This is what I meant with not fully understand.

Given the reality that way too "feminist" men latch on to a small things in order to discredit all feminists, it's neither wise or necessary to give them this.

This kind of gets back around to the question I haven't gotten an answer to yet. Other posters are making a bigger deal about this, but hopefully you can help.

A large part of their position seems to be objecting to "feminist" men diluting or misdirecting their movement. I'm still looking for an answer to "why such men can't just be ignored?"

[bettyellen]

212. How do you suggest dealing with them?

Some seem almost reasonable- many partially supportive of feminism. It's easy to get sucked in, or give them the benefit of the doubt. It's the nature of the net.
But maybe you have better ideas? They're not all 100% trolls, some are misguided and can be reached. So it's a tough call how to handle them. Thoughts?

[jeff47]

219. They weren't talking about trolls

Trolls are relatively easy: Try to explain why it's a bad idea once or twice, and if it becomes clear they're not listening, shake head and move on. I use this no matter the subject. It can be tiring, but works most of the time.

But these other posters have spoken as if "feminist" men were steering the movement, and doing so in directions that were bad for women.

I fully realize it would be better to get answers from them, but so far they've not replied. If you happen to have any insights, I'd appreciate them.

[seabeyond]

224. no. not only trolls. men. that mean well. that support womens rights, and think

Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:13 AM - Edit history (2)

because they support basic rights that they are feminists. feminism is not only about the simple legislative rights.

we are talking about men, that do not believe in patriarchy or objectification or sexualization of women, claiming to be feminists. and if a woman talks about these issues, we are told we are wrong. our voice and argument is dismissed. and one of the ways is generally thru ridicule, degradation, demeaning our sexuality, putting us in our place, as these men claim they are feminist.

if we discuss the rape culture we are told we are blaming all men for rape or there is not such thing as rape culture.

they will tell us the woman that gave a nude picture is to blame for her xbf putting it on revenge site because we should expect no better from a man, we should know better.

in so many many ways, they will be a part of the patriarchy, that though they fight for our legislative rights, they do not fight to end or even be aware of their privilege.

if a man cannot even acknowledge his male privilege, how can he claim to be the voice of women?

BUT.. good men. men that are respectful to their women. love their women. support legislative rights

that is not the whole of feminism

[jeff47]

259. Well, I guess I'll try asking again

Why do you have to listen to such men?

Your complaint is that such men are steering the movement poorly. Why do they have the wheel?

We don't let right-wing fantasies of what liberals believe steer liberalism. Why do you have to let such men steer feminism? Why do they have any power at all?

[redqueen]

260. Neo liberals? Third way dems? Centrists?

They haven't been steering liberalism per se, but they have definitely steered the democratic party rightward, and that has affected the way younger generations perceive liberalism itself.

[jeff47]

270. And they gave themselves different names to indicate they aren't liberals. (nt)

[redqueen]

274. neo liberals means not liberals?

This is amazing. Such a battle. So many men get it. It's difficult to see why some have such a problem with this concept. It really isn't that complicated.

[seabeyond]

263. it is the men that i have experience that claim to be feminist. i do not "let" them do shit. and i

call them out with their shit, and where they are wrong. no one is "letting" them do anything. then we are called all kinds of names, generally attacking our sexuality as they insist the are feminists. these are the ONLY men i have as an example of feminist.

so i conculde they are not feminist, and from experience, men cannot be.

that is my lesson learned. that is why i come to my conclusions. the evidence i have seen tells me..... no.

it is not a matter of "letting" any one do anything.

[jeff47]

271. And didn't you do this regardless of the gender restriction of feminist?

So how does restricting the label help this?

(And thanks for your answer)

[seabeyond]

278. not a tough one. none of us in here really give a shit. MEN keep starting OPs claiming

they are feminist and they have the right to the title and no one has the right to question them. at THAT point, women that do not necessarily agree will express WHY they do not agree.

i have yet to hear any woman go around telling men they are not feminists in real life or du. this is the feminist forum. this is the group that discusses these things. after another man started an op declaring he was a feminist and women were the problem with him making this statement (attacking a woman in his declaration, ignoring what she felt in HER movement), BB came into the feminist forum to declare that yes, she feels that a man is not a feminist but an ally.

again, we talk about these things.

jeff.... if you want to call yourself a feminist, do it. you now know some feminist will not buy into that, so you will understand when you run into it. you will also know a lot of women support you. this is one.... you will take your chances.

[bettyellen]

238. oh it's a mix with trolls in there, but sometimes it's hard to tell. mostly it's guys who have a

particular bone to pick about feminism, and want to discuss it from the position of a feminist. sometimes they engage in reasonable discussion- but far more frequently they will not. but very often they agree *on paper* with one aspect of women's rights, have never really given feminism any thought or discussion here before, and have stumbled upon an aspect (new to them) that sticks in their craw. they only ever come to vent and criticize, and want to wear the label while doing it.

often they just don't get the why or the female POV... but they won't ask, they want to come in and say- hey girls, stop it- that part of what you're doing offends me, and i think it's trivial. (ironically they'll say we're wasting time- not realizing we're wasting time on their ilk) *Please cater to my feelings over what you all think is truly important because I'm a feminst too.* and the hurt feelings turn hostile the minute you don't agree. every feminist thread gets one or two. So, it gets trollish either way- disrupting and making it all about themselves. are we supposed to individually revoke their feminist labels- or just admit that by and large, guys don't ever get 90% of it, and maybe shouldn't attmept to speak as authorities, so to speak.

for obnoxious men, it's like a moth to the flame. feminist blogs are great, but it's rare you ever want to look at the comments. and unfortunately, they often speak louder and more frequently than real feminists' allies do. so what do we do with that?

[Sheldon Cooper]

245. Envision these same guys going into the AA group, or the LGBT group,

and saying things like: "But what about us white people? Or - this happens to heteros too, you know! How dare you offend me like this?? You need to acknowledge and work to fix my pain, too! And by the way, I get to call myself a person of color or a LGBT if I want to! And I should be allowed to be a leader of their group if I want to!!"

Bottom line is that practically none of them would do that, because they either recognize the problem inherent or, if they don't agree with it,at least they have sense enough not to say it. But post any kind of thread about feminism, and sure enough here they come. "You won't call me a feminist so I'm leaving!!" :pout:

It's one of the most astonishing things I've ever seen on the so called progressive internet, and it's amazing to me that it's not only practiced here but apparently sanctioned by the owners of the site. Oh well.

[seabeyond]

249. the chuckle is, it shows how instilled in patriarchy we are, and exactly what the issue is about

male dominance of women, and women being infantiled. it is exactly the issue. the is repeated over and over and over, that shows we still have a lot of work to do.

[redqueen]

255. The longer you are actively involved with feminism, the more glaringly obvious it is.

It is so sadly common, the derailing, the silencing, the ignorance. That one person in here who ranted about the other, "more important" issues he obviously thinks we should be discussing... so proudly showing off that he knew absolutely fuckall about feminism, or this group, since we have dozens of threads about the issues he so mendaciously claimed to care about.

Silencing tactics, for me, serve as a signal that any engagement with the person using them is a waste of time, because they do not get it and they do not want to.

[NoOneMan]

62. And its divisive

Its also incorrect:

fem·i·nism
/ˈfeməˌnizəm/
Noun
The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.


Generally, no mention of gender. Whoever is trying to retroactively redefine this term is being nothing short of divisive.

[seabeyond]

64. then divisive we stand. does that mean you will not support womens rights? nt

[NoOneMan]

67. Why does it matter what I think?

Your little exclusive group should have the power and means to figure it out yourselves. About when you start telling people they don't belong, you can stop asking their opinion

[bettyellen]

206. It doesn't !! You've discredited yourself so thoroughly that

No one would be foolish enough to take you (not all men, but you) seriously.
I'm glad we finally cleared that up!

[Dash87]

210. I don't see any exclusion here.

It's just that a man claiming to be an expert on female experience would be like me claiming to know anything about Kirby, which I'm guessing you know a heck of a lot more about (based on your avatar). I could claim to be a Kirby expert, and the greatest Kirby player of all time, but at the end of the day, I still know nothing about Kirby. I could kind of guess what playing Kirby games would be like, but since I've never actually had that experience, I wouldn't actually know what playing a real Kirby game would feel like. Therefore, referring to myself as a "Kirby player" would be pretty foolish, wouldn't it?

[NoOneMan]

61. If a man strategizes and discusses the movement with women, he's an ally

Last edited Tue Jan 29, 2013, 06:34 PM - Edit history (1)

If a woman does it, she is a feminist

Sexist much?

[seabeyond]

63. no fuckin way. lol. if men are not a part of the womans movement then women are being sexist.

ownership, much.

[NoOneMan]

66. Feminism isn't exclusively a women's movement

fem·i·nism
/ˈfeməˌnizəm/
Noun
The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Anyone can do that, even those who are anatomically unsatisfying to you.

[seabeyond]

68. "even those who are anatomically unsatisfying to you." tell man what he doesnt want to hear, and he

attacks a womans sexuality. how totally predictable. and no surprise. hence, my not taking much time and effort with your posts.

so tired and old.

[NoOneMan]

70. Straw men are tired and old

Clearly men (defined by anatomical differences) do not have the satisfying hardware to be "feminists" in your view. Correct or incorrect?

attacks a womans sexuality. how totally predictable. and no surprise.

If anyone is attacked, its the people being excluded from a movement on grounds of having a dick. We can't help being born with the "wrong" wedding tackle for your group; we don't get to pick and choose what we are, but what we strive for in life.

Apparently, striving for equality among the sexes is not enough to be a feminist. We must be born differently. Am I engaged in a straw man? Is this not your argument?

[ismnotwasm]

77. Are you a feminist?

[NoOneMan]

79. I have a penis

So, since you speak for the entire movement, I think that very well excludes me despite anything else about who I am, what I believe in, or what I work for. Right?

[boston bean]

81. I suppose you No One Man speaks for the entire feminsit movement, right?

[NoOneMan]

84. Did I suggest that?

I am merely, as a male, critiquing such divisive redefinition of a movement. I am not asserting a truth about a movement that is contrary to its explicit definition as the OP is.

But because being a male excludes me from being a feminist, and thereby contributing, why would you spend any time addressing my concerns or paying attention to them?

[boston bean]

80. No one is excluding you from anything.

You can be supportive, just like I am supportive of many movements that I don't have a physical commonality with.

I certainly don't feel excluded. I actually feel like I am giving respect by understanding that I can't possibly know 100% the struggles they face. I would never ever assume to face same feelings, reactions etc that others may receive in a group I don't belong to, but that am an ally to.

What makes feminism different.

Women, who have femaleness, a vagina, a period, a life's worth or common experiences don't get to have a place to control the agenda for the issues that affect them?

WTH makes feminism so different.

Only thing I can tell, is that women don't garner the same respect.

[NoOneMan]

82. "is that women don't garner the same respect"

So you all just don't want male mouthpieces around, stealing the spotlight because they may automatically garner more respect? IOW, the efficiency of the movement is second to the process in which it works? Equality is not worth achieving if it is not all women responsible for achieving it?


Hey, whatever. This whole thread amounts to an untold amount of silliness to me. But since I'm a male, I won't be telling anyone not to be silly. You have a equal right to be as petty, divisive and silly as anyone else. If this is a battle you want to pick, all the power to you all (though, I really shouldn't symbolically "grant power" as if I am an authority simply because I am male).


I can imagine there are a thousand things people can't parse out of my words to build a raging case against me as a hidden misogynist, so I should stop soon. In any case, congrats to all you bona fide feminists for making your movement so hostile to male critique that we simply lose interest in following the discussions we are no longer allowed to participate in (for fear of being dog-piled with straw man arguments and angst).

[boston bean]

120. no, not sexist. I advocate for one god damned place where women

control the agenda.

There aren't many places where that occurs in this world. Men do not get to dictate to women what feminism is and what feminists should be, or anything in the middle or outside of that in feminism.

[NoOneMan]

125. Listen...

Is it sexist to perceive similar actions of two actors differently if the primary difference is only the gender of the actors?

IOW, is the difference explicit and objective or a result of internal perceptions and biases?

[boston bean]

126. Listen, it is sexist for a man to believe he knows what is best for the wimmin folk.

[NoOneMan]

131. I agree!

But I do not agree that all men who wish to advocate for equality for women (in the same manner that women do) are doing that. I do not believe all men contributing ideas and discussions to the movement (in a similar manner that women do) are doing that.

[boston bean]

132. Many are allies.

[seabeyond]

129. the problem is you want this to be about men. it is NOT. it isnt about you. nothing to do with

you. nothing. not a single damn thing.

[redqueen]

65. ... and in both these discussions, it is so clearly demonstrated...

here are the men, insisting on their right to get their way, in the women's liberation movement.

Sigh.

[ismnotwasm]

71. Actually

WTF happened here? ( and I'm STILL sick with a cold dammit)


Post about sexual violence or rape as war weapon or inequities in pay, or inequities in sciences and do those posts get attention? Do our male allies or feminists--if they like--here come to offer support? Are they signing up for the One Billion Rising on Feb 14th? Etc

Not so much.

But Debating male 'feminism' does? That tells me something right there.

[jeff47]

76. To be blunt, I'm only here because this thread showed up on the greatest page

thus I found out about it. Threads about the subjects you mentioned don't seem to reach that page often.

On the occasions that they do (ex. the recent drugging and raping by the football team), I don't really have much to add to the thread. A "that's awful" post doesn't seem to add much to a thread that already has dozens of "that's awful" posts. So I just rec the thread without replying so it gets more visibility while not adding a massively redundant reply.

And my presence in this thread is trying to understand, not change what anyone does. As demonstrated by my not understanding why the movement must respond at all if a man calls himself a "feminist". I don't get why exclusionary language is a better option. So I'm trying to discuss it so that I do understand. Which, by necessity, will require challenging it so I can understand why the trade-off is a good idea.

[ismnotwasm]

83. Ok

I haven't opened that other thread in GD. I understand the viewpoints of the women who say men cannot totally share a women's experience, it goes beyond biological gender and into internalized life experiences. There are women who don't much care if a man self identifies as a feminist, but we have learned to be wary of the differences between claimed labels and action. I think what is being pointed out is a male feminist, or ally sits in the often unacknowledged sexual privilege of a patriarchal society.

Now, I want to be fair. I'm a heterosexual white feminist. I don't share the experience of a Gay Feminist from Brazil, say. There used to be something called 'standpoint' theory, coined by white middle class feminists. It said just by the shared experience of being female in this patriarchy our experiences would be the same. That was one of the biggest mistakes of feminism IMO, and it failed.

But the life experiences of males and females everywhere are quite different. Personally, I think owning the label is fine as long as its understood its a woman's movement. But men tend to shy away the more aware they become and often drop 'feminist' for male ally. Because men have issues as well. And strong movements of there own that can work in tandem with feminism.

I'll be very glad when things are less gendered but they are, and there you go.

[jeff47]

145. So to sum up

(Or more likely, massively oversimplify)
Men would have to experience the discrimination women receive to really understand, and so shouldn't have the label?

[Deep13]

281. In not on DU all the time, but I do chime in for support...

...when I see those posts. I was not aware of the "One Billion Rising."

[Deep13]

280. No, I'm insisting on promoting women's agency and equality.

I'll do that with you or without you. I hate repression, bullying, and servitude for any reason and it drives me crazy that a full half of the human race lives that way and that the masses ignorantly perpetuate it.

[Helen Reddy]

73. This post is absolutely

TOPS! Well done.

[Swamp Lover]

85. Are women who don't want you to tell them what to focus on, protest, talk about, etc.....

enemies of feminism?

[seabeyond]

86. that is a very huge issue and topic. and i would imagine that if we women addressed it seriously,

it would be ignored just as everything we have said in this thread has been ignored. it is a good question. one we have discussed amongst ourselves. not everyone agree and all of us listening and being respectful. but, what i have noticed in this thread, is not a single issue that women have brought up to the men have warrants a second of serious discussion.

so, why bother?

[NoOneMan]

88. "not a single issue that women have brought up to the men"

Did you expect a divisive thread to be constructive to the feminists movement? Or did you anticipate a bowling match, where you set the stage, let the male "pins" stand up in objection and then collectively bowl them down for fun?

Do you want to talk about important issues like equal pay, work conditions and representation? Or just who qualifies for what, and humans with penises are just "allies" who shouldn't onerously contribute their opinion to your exclusive movement.

[ismnotwasm]

89. Dude, this is just one thread

Plenty more to involve yourself in

[NoOneMan]

90. Ah, thats right. Penis-havers aren't allowed to add their voices to any feminist issue

But, really now, wouldn't that vastly take away from the dog-piling fun? Its like throwing a party and no one showing up

[seabeyond]

92. except no one has said that. opposite of what you state. why ignore what is being said to make

your argument? and why should anyone take you seriously when you obviously ignore what women say to you?

[NoOneMan]

94. I've listened to the argument and weighed it

Mostly because in my experience, they think the self proclaimed title entitles them to tell women what feminism/feminists/WOMEN should be focusing on, protesting, talking about, etc.

It is a divisive generalization based on anecdotal experience that is contrary to the broadest definition of feminism, and subject to sexist bias. Such bias involves perceiving strategizing & advice from all men as entitled dictations, while accepting the same interaction from all women as simply constructive contributions.


You don't have to take that seriously; you don't have to do anything if that is the culture you are trying to foster. I feel that I have respected the OP enough to have provided a genuine response, despite suspecting--based on up thread activity--that people were not going to reply in good faith (IOW, some people post to engage in e-Battles rather than e-Discussions). I do not expect anyone to reciprocate respect, but please do not expect me to refrain from reciprocating the divisiveness & disrespect I've encountered here.

[ismnotwasm]

93. What are you talking about?

I've never seen you here before. Is there an issue?

[seabeyond]

91. cooking dinner right now and then as a family we will sit together and enjoy each others company.

i do not have the time to address your nonconcerns and really am not sure that i will bother with it later, when i do have time.

[redqueen]

95. "Do you want to talk about important issues like..." "or just..."

NEVER GETS OLD.

[NoOneMan]

96. Oh, so excluding penis-havers is a very important issue to the feminists movement?

I am sorry if I didn't get the memo. I have a penis. They don't send us memos any more. We probably wouldn't read them any more. Or understand them if we tried.

[ismnotwasm]

98. Penis- havers. Huh

Now there's a straw man for you.

You seem to be enjoying yourself.

[NoOneMan]

100. How is that a straw man? My biological features, or my chromosonal arrangement exclude me...

Right? Isn't that according to the OP? I cannot be a feminist because of genetics (and the penis it produced)?

There is no real discussion in this entire thread. It starts with a broad brush, then if anyone is brave enough to object, the included of the group stand around and say "see. exactly what we are talking about" (which is based not on the content of the reaction, but the reaction itself).

The very premise of this thread is that people with specific genetics and biological features cannot be feminists; it is a premise that is not being supported or defended, but used as honey to find targets to dog-pile from what I can tell.

[seabeyond]

104. yes. it excludes you from having an understanding of a womans experience. why is that hard? or

a problem for you?

[NoOneMan]

108. Of course I can't understand the woman's experience fully!

I completely agree. I'd also posit that not every woman can understand every other woman's experience; there is even some arbitrary level of commonality that even some women (like a Queen) would not be able to understand.

But is that necessary to advocate for women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men (definition of feminism)? What arbitrary common level of understanding do women all share (that absolutely all men do not) that uniquely qualifies them to do this, and who among the woman get to set that arbitrary bar?

Is complete understanding (to the point of immersed experience) ever required for a human to be an advocate of equality and civil rights?

[seabeyond]

118. do you believe and repel the patriarchy, the white male privilege. simple question.

pornification, objectification, sexualization and the issues it create for our girls and boys>

[NoOneMan]

146. Not entirely simple

But few things are.

I advocate against the underlying civilization that has created the structure that reinforce all hierarchy and exploitation of mankind--at the expense of people and nature--to benefit the few and the industrial machine.

I prefer a much simpler and egalitarian (if not matriarchal) social structure. But I also understand that without central power to enforce equality (which historically institutionalizes hierarchy) there is a chance for oppression of various minorities. Those are not easy waters to navigate, but surely my ideal is not to be realized voluntarily any time soon.

So yes, in the meantime, when it comes to fixing the filth, I am and have always been of similar mind.

[seabeyond]

148. thank you. nt

[boston bean]

164. in other words, he doesn't really see that women alone have issues to fight for.

That they are all tied to class, and that men do not have privilege. He does not believe that a patriarchal society exists.

[seabeyond]

169. yes. what i have help shown me that men are not feminist. the movement gets turned to ALL people

and not women. but, he ultimately will support us. so meh... it is what it is. and i am fine with that.

[NoOneMan]

174. I see a self-affirming echo chamber forming

Men do it too

[NoOneMan]

173. Another straw man? Why?

There are absolutely different degrees of oppression and exploitation (requiring varied focus and efforts), and yes, our society is absolutely patriarchal--if it must exist, surely it shouldn't exist like this.

With that said, yes, women are not alone in their fight for equality, but by no means does that not make the feminist movement unique.

[boston bean]

175. It makes us a group that fights for the issues that affect women.

Not men.

There is nothing wrong with that. Nothing discriminatory about it.

[NoOneMan]

180. Not a bit. I agree

What I disagree with is that when all men try to contribute (in the same manner a women would) that it is automatically entitled dictation, thereby proving that men (defined by biological differences) cannot be a member of such a movement.

That's where we diverge. I find this view to be biases, anecdotal, a generalization, and divisive, as I've previously stated.

[boston bean]

181. I am an ally to many movements.

I don't feel I am ostracized by anyone because I don't fit the exact grouping.

Why are you feeling so sensitive about this.

Have you gone on to some civil rights discussion boards to tell them how awful they are for not allowing white people to tell them them that they are black, or latino, etc?

[NoOneMan]

190. Personally....

Why are you feeling so sensitive about this.

I am not so much about the OP itself, which I have tried to stay on topic with. But I am being attacked by a load of incessant straw man arguments. Do you enjoy when people misrepresent your views, call you a troll, and an enemy to causes you advocate for?

The thing about topics like this is that you either have to "clear the air" after the dog pile or let people abuse you in your absence. All in all, it creates a pretty hostile environment that discourages people from objecting to generalizations like the ones I found in the OP. If thats what you are after (a self-affirming echo chamber hostile to contrary discussion), thats fine. I probably won't wander back here. I don't think I have anything to add to this DU group, nor that it would be listened to.

[boston bean]

195. I had to stop at your 4th sentence, because you called me a TROLL

trapping you in a honey trap.

Please....

[NoOneMan]

199. If I could better describe what this thread was, I would

But thats the gist of it in my perspective. We all have the right to see it differently. Nothing about the initial response to posters implied any willingness to engage in a good faith argument about the merits of the original claim. I apologize if that wasn't that isn't the case.

[tama]

225. "it excludes you from having an understanding of a womans experience."

No, it does not. While we probably never can fully understand another human beings experience (or even our own!), empathy, compassion and comprehension and ability to see from other's point of view do not end at gender borders. If there even are such borders, except as social and mental constructs - which this line of politics is putting up, not deconstructing.

Men go to see female shrinks and women male shrinks. Some women feel that men understand their experiences than other women, some men feel that women understand their experiences better than other men. Each of us has their "feminine" and "masculine" side, in various proportions and countless ways.

You can make statistical studies, and they will probably show that women generally understand other women better and men generally understand other men better, but those would be statistics, not absolutes and not exclusive or predictive of individuals ability to understand the experience of another individual.

"Women are from Venus, Men from Mars" is just a myth, and not a very good myth.

[bettyellen]

106. And some of them, like you, couldn't even be characterised as supporters.

Because you've made it clear that you don't even understand what feminism is.
You're not here to support it, you're here to rework it into what you'd prefer it to be.
Why don't you find a group of like minded fellas who this is all so important to and work on a position paper to submit to feminists? (Instead of posting disruptive bullshit)
We'd love that!

[NoOneMan]

109. Please don't tell me what I am here to do based on random, self-affirming guessing

You wouldn't appreciate if I did the same

[bettyellen]

114. You showed your hand, fella. There's absolutely nothing in your posts

That indicates you've ever supported feminism, and plenty to show you are here only to mock them. You don't get to slap the feminist label on yourself and take over the party. I know you were hoping to, ha ha. No.

[NoOneMan]

116. To be honest...

There's absolutely nothing in your posts that indicates you've ever supported feminism

I understand that and I do not disagree. That doesn't mean I do or I do not. What is means is that this topic isn't about polling men for their support, but rather excluding them irregardless of their support from being feminists (and I've replied by voicing my objections to this, on topic).

I find it to be an absolute waste of time talking about myself in the context of this thread, as its off topic and apparently unwanted. Before anyone here could even be remotely, possibly interested in what I feel, the premise that men's voices in feminism is an absolute intrusion needs to be debated. Of course, if you are already accepting this premise as an a priori truth, it is quite worthless for a man to debate the other side to you. Correct?

[boston bean]

117. wow, you can't even bring yourself to be an ally to feminists.

We've been so mean.

I guess you really care about feminist issues, don't you?

[seabeyond]

119. and that would be the obvious in our face that men pretend is not happening. and we are suppose to

go along with it so men do not "feel" excluded from something they have no interest in.

[NoOneMan]

121. Why the insulting straw men?

I am stating that it doesn't matter what I say to you about what I believe, so what difference does it make? Do you want me to use this thread to grovel and explicitly state all the groups, activities, protests, etc, that I have been a member of so that you accept me as an "ally" when I reject the underlying divisiveness that such a term introduces?

[boston bean]

122. How would you know what would matter, when you haven't said it.

All you have said is that if you can't call yourself a feminist, you don't feel welcome.

Well, I say, I don't call myself LGBT or black, and I am still an ally.

[NoOneMan]

128. I've said...

I've said the generalization of what you claim all men are doing is biased and subject to sexism, and that excluding who and who can't be a "feminist" based on biological differences is divisive.

That is my stance. You disagree. We don't have much more to discuss. Good luck with your honey trap

[boston bean]

130. honey trap... nice tell there... good night.

[NoOneMan]

134. Yes, you use them to catch flies or whatever else

So, on the internet, you set up a provocative topic without "good faith" (no intention to actually discuss the matter), and when anyone disagrees, you dog-pile with straw men, knee jerks, and angst rather than debate the merits of the topic. Its fun. Its a game.

[boston bean]

135. I set up nothing. I made a post.

One that many feminists agree with.

You can think I used my wyly women ways to trap you, but you done shown yourself, I can take no credit for that.

[NoOneMan]

139. Right

You can think I used my wyly women ways to trap you, but you done shown yourself, I can take no credit for that.

It has nothing to do with being a woman. Anyone can setup a trollish honey trap. I knew what I was getting in for. It went as I expected. I am a glutton for being dog-piled. Next time Ill take a pass and youll find new flies to gang up on...or itll be boring.

[boston bean]

143. now, you are calling me a toll that set up a honey trap...

Yes, I'm an evil woman. I did it all to entice you into this thread and watch others tear your viewpoints to shreds.

I posted the OP because of you, you, you, you, YOU!!!!!!!

LOL

[seabeyond]

144. you enchanting, mysterious, devious, witch. nt

[NoOneMan]

147. "Yes, I'm an evil woman"

Again, it has nothing to do with being a woman. Anyone can set a honey trap. Its fun. Its entertaining. Its a bit rude to people who engage in good faith. But its your party. Enjoy.

[boston bean]

150. Well, I am a woman. You said I was a troll setting up a honey trap.

Where did I go wrong...

It's really not all about you. Really.

[NoOneMan]

154. It doesn't take special woman powers

Everyone has an equal opportunity to post a unsubstantiated premise to attract people to criticize. Some just choose to refrain from such absurdity.


But, but, but please try again to make it a sexist thing. Because everything must be sexist right? Even a man trying to voice constructive ideas about achieving gender equality apparently

[seabeyond]

136. so, we are not acting nice enough, feminine enough, to gain your agreement with us wimminz.

gotcha.

[seabeyond]

142. i betcha hysterical and emotional also. but, when yo absolutely do not listen to what is being said

Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 09:17 AM - Edit history (1)

to you, it is easy to come up with any adjective you can to insult a person.

[NoOneMan]

149. Yeah, well, I've already been called a troll and an enemy to feminism

So you know, my reaction to that response isn't incredible positive. If that makes you hysterical, I am sorry. That was not my intention. I am sure you can deal with it.

[bettyellen]

124. It is a waste of time for you to assert your offended sensibilities

Are of primal importance to feminists. And so far that's all you have to say?

And history tells us, of you're stuck on this little point, all you have to offer the feminist movement is more complaints about your bruised ego about a hundred other little things. This is just not going to ever be our big concern. Stop even pretending it should be important, these bruised egos- and then making fun of us for "not doing important things"!
you are here to mock us and then berate us for not taking you seriously enough?
Really?

It's going to hurt some men's feelings. Deal with it, form your own thing, or get over it and realize it is not for you to own in a way that women do. You have a ton to learn about even how to fake being supportive.

[NoOneMan]

137. "And history tells us, of you're stuck on this little point"

Wow...generalization about genders based on past history of civilization? Now we are getting somewhere

[bettyellen]

172. No, it's an observation about YOU, based on your whiney

Me me me bullshit.

[ismnotwasm]

107. What do you know about feminism?

Or, rather how do you feel about it? If you want to be a feminist, Go ahead.


This is a discussion, the OP stated her feelings, and you've responded with wordy snark.


That's ok. I do the same thing sometimes.

To go from 'men' to 'penis-haver' is certainly an example of a stawman argument, as it deflects from a general gender term to a specific biological appendage. Didn't you point out something similar up thread?

[NoOneMan]

112. Snark?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=15013

That was my reply. Yes, I find the perceived bias to be sexist; two people can do the same thing but it is interpreted differently based on their gender. That's not snark

[ismnotwasm]

87. Nope

But it doesn't make them feminists either. Plenty of women reject the label, and yet stand for the principles. That's their choice.

[Xipe Totec]

105. I wish this had never become such a polarizing issue

It really takes the wind out of anybody's sails to be relegated to 2nd class, back of the bus membership.

[boston bean]

115. I wish women weren't second class citizens.

You?

Feminists want spaces where women control the message, where we work out the issues that affect us.

That doesn't mean anyone is making someone a second class citizen.

Do you feel this insulted because civil rights groups focus on issues that pertain to them? Probably not, so why the different treatment for feminists?

[seabeyond]

123. because you cannot have ownership of the womens movement it places you in 2nd class status?

do you feel that with the black and gay movement? do you have to be equal in your lack of experience toward black and gays, but have equal experience, in order to support the black or gay movement?

the only time it comes up is when a MAN declares he is a feminist, and NO woman is allowed to challenge. and we give our opinion. in giving our opinion it creates this massive divide that men cannot seem to get beyond. why?

[Xipe Totec]

205. Imagine my tepid enthusiasm.

I guess you don't need us.

Maybe it is time to focus our energies somewhere else.

Somewhere where we have more skin in the game.

We are not women. I get it.

This is not our fight. I get it.

You don't need us. I get it.

You do not want our support. I get it.

[seabeyond]

209. do you not have wives, daughters, mothers, sisters, nieces and friends? that is not enough skin in

the game for you? you have to have equal ownership in the womens movement to feel that it is worth you effort? your voice equal to the womans experience?

where did i say it was not your fight?
where did i say you were not needed?
where did i say do not want your support?

every one of these threads that MEN have started and every post i have run across where MEN have supported women, i at the least say thank you, and generally more gushing in my appreciating valueing and praising their efforts in supporting women. every one of these threads, women repeatedly.... fuckin repeatedly state we need, appreciate and value the mans participation.

and still

that is not enough.

without ownership, without title, you equate that to

not your fight
you were not needed
do not want your support

what women in her right mind would think that you, as a man, is listening to what i say, with the conclusions you draw? and if you cannot simply listen to what a woman says, how can you be the voice for a womans movement?

[bettyellen]

239. spot fucking on!

[Xipe Totec]

265. They are all women - they belong to the 1st class membership group

And by your purity test, should be able to fend for themselves and not rely on male support.

[seabeyond]

266. " not rely on male support" we have said repeatedly we need mens support. so i ask, why pretend

something different was said.

is this the support you give women? ignore the repeated pats on the head, and appreciation, to say we do not want support? when clearly that is not what is said? what kind of man are you, that you continually ignore what a woman says in her own movement and when discussing WHY men do not fill this role well?

[Xipe Totec]

267. If you are speaking to a women audience, then I bow out

I get the negative vibes; you are not welcome, you are not one of us, we can take care of ourselves, we don't need men to validate us...

And on, and on, and on....

Does this message help, or hinder your effort?

That is the question I'm asking.

You want us in the fight? Don't piss on us. Don't diminish us. don't polarize...

If you have to have a vagina to be engaged in the fight, you just lost 50% of your troops.

So stop this nonsense about who can be called a feminist and focus and what women need to achieve.

Do not push us away and ask for our support at the same time.

[seabeyond]

268. so, regardless of what the woman says, you will ignore them and interpret it to your advantage,

for your argument.

and this is being supportive of women to you?

i have seen enough of your posts. i wont hold my breathe.

[gollygee]

269. "We call the shots about your movement or we won't help"

Nice.

In my opinion, you shouldn't be a part of the movement if that's your attitude.

[seabeyond]

275. who are you jack? which of the 4 or 5 misogynist just kicked off are you? nt

[bettyellen]

241. anyone who says this.... never was "focusing their energies" on feminism, LOL.

you're bruised ego is paramount. we get it.

[Xipe Totec]

264. Teabagger purity test. I get it

[bettyellen]

286. actually you don't. you keep claiming Sea and I both said that we did not, so dishonest of you.

if you firmly believe that in order to be supportive of feminists your own ego needs to be gratified first, you were never going to be a good ally anyway. no loss at all, no regrets.

[DonCoquixote]

111. I will take allies

after all, I am latino, and while few white women can understand what it is like to be called a (censored racial epithet), they can know enough to know better, and to fight those that do not, and they can also realize that when anyone's rights are down, all rights are down, sound fair?

[boston bean]

113. of course that's fair. However, when a white woman begins telling latinos

what is wrong with their movement and how they are alienating white women... well that's another discussion, and is my point here.

I noticed you called them allies, not Latino's, right?

Well, maybe we went wrong and called it femininism instead of women's movement.

If that were the case, maybe there wouldn't be such gnashing of teeth over this issue.

[gollygee]

151. I don't know

"Well, maybe we went wrong and called it femininism instead of women's movement"

When you think of the civil rights movement, which isn't called "African American's movement", do you think of any white people? I'll admit that it's before my time so maybe I'm wrong.

I don't know why people think it's OK for men to take charge of a movement that is all about women. To work with us, absolutely, but to actually be at the center of it?

[NoOneMan]

158. "it's OK for men to take charge of a movement that is all about women"

Who thinks that?

[gollygee]

159. What does "leadership" mean to you?

There's another thread that feels it's fine for men to be the leaders of the feminist movement.

[NoOneMan]

163. I'm not part of that thread

I am ambivalent about this--I haven't really thought of it. I know there were white people who were leaders in the abolitionist movement. I think effectiveness is important, and its ripe for discussion if the Means (of male leadership) could justify the Ends (of equality), presuming they could help in any way as leaders in accomplishing that Ends (moreso than them taking a passive role). We don't know if that is really the case. We never will probably. Its a good debate. I think its better to keep it a healthy debate and active. But my opinion apparently doesn't matter.

[gollygee]

167. A couple of things:

1. White people HAD to be advocates in the abolitionist movement because black people were slaves and not even treated as fully human. They had no ability to form a movement.

2. No one said the opinions of men don't matter. There are tons of great advocates of feminism who are men. Their help is very valuable to the movement. The only things in question are whether the word "feminist" is best used only for women or for both men and women (with "feminist ally" for men), and whether the leadership of the feminist movement should be made up of just women.

[NoOneMan]

184. True

Last edited Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:06 PM - Edit history (1)

1) But if we are presuming this is a patriarchal society, wouldn't that assume men have more power (clearly not the gap of the abolitionists) to help enact the social change being sought after? Otherwise, would even equal power be deterimental in any way? Power for change is "good"

2. "No one said the opinions of men don't matter." Partially. It depends on how you see it. This op states that when men express those opinions in regards to feminism, we are dictating what women should think/do, and therefore, should be ignored or excluded, rendering our contributions as meaningless (right, isn't that the OP's point?)

[gollygee]

191. No, I don't think anyone minds men giving an opinion

it's more about whether men should dictate - like whether they should expect they have authority and that women should agree with their opinion or follow their advice. Gathering various opinions from various sources is valuable, so the opinions of men are valuable as a part of that, but as leaders men would be able to turn those opinions into policy, and I really think women should dictate policy of a movement all about women.

I suppose there are potential ways having men as leaders could benefit the feminist movement, but I'm more worried about it turning into a different kind of movement. I personally think it's more important that we control it and decide what's important. It's hard to explain why I feel that way but it comes from having conversations where you're told by men that you aren't a "real feminist" for one reason or another, as though they're the deciders as to what a real feminist is, or being told that the problem with feminism is that it's too focused on issue A and it should be more concerned about issue B, that is a "real feminist issue." I've just heard/read too much of that to feel comfortable with the movement being led by men, even if other movements have benefited from having leaders from outside their group. I don't want men deciding who a "real feminist" is or what a "real feminist issue" is and isn't and changing the movement to suit those beliefs. I hope the feminist movement continues to have as many allies as it has, but I would hope most supportive men would understand why our experience makes us feel this way about it.

Now I do want to add that women disagree about this, and I imagine feminists disagree about it as well, so I'm just giving my opinion on the issue.

[NoOneMan]

197. Thanks for your opinion

The OP basically implies all men do dictate.

I find lots of common ground with your reasoned response

[DonCoquixote]

186. I used allies

in an atempt to find a gender and race neutral term that would not set off any fuses.

[seabeyond]

133. my GOD don, that is so fuckin' easy. and so right on and true. and the men that pretend this is

such a challenging concept are no supporters of women.

[seabeyond]

127. let me be really clear, and even agressive in saying this to the men in this forum. the feminist

movement is the ONE place as a woman i can speak out without coddling male ego. be it marriage, the work environment even if i am the owner, politics or any where else in the world, i must repress my speech. i must coddle male ego. i must tippy toe around. i must lower my voice and make sure i do not sound too aggressive. i must choose my word to not sound confrontational. i must speak in a straight forward way, cause that is all a man understands. and i must not speak in a straight forward way cause that makes me a ball breaking bitch.

so you men telling us women how we are suppose to express our opinions, and speak in the feminist movement is bringing us nothing but what we experience in every god damn part of our lives when discussing womens issues with you or any other fuckin' issue.

so, though you say you are on our side, i give you this whole thread that VALIDATES what we women are saying. you are not a part. you do not listen to womens issues and what we are experiencing and why we say what we do.

and THAT is why so many of us have come to the conclusion that a man cannot be a feminist.

[NoOneMan]

152. This thread validates an inability to debate the merits of an argument

so you men telling us women how we are suppose to express our opinions

Who has told you this? This is a straw man. You can express yourself any way you want, including by endorsing a biased, anecdotally-based generalization that leads to the redefinition of "feminist". And I can express myself by telling you its absurd.

Thats called a discussion. If you want to hang out a flag, other people are going to notice and say something.

and THAT is why so many of us have come to the conclusion that a man cannot be a feminist.

This is becoming a sad circular argument. Express irrationality about men's biology excluding them from a label, and then assert when they object it proves they should be excluded from your special label. What is this? The second grade?

[seabeyond]

153. it is because you refuse to see or listen to the womens opinion on a womans movement and ONLY look

at it from your mans eyes.

you have YET to discuss any of the issues brought up, but to tell us they do not matter cause it makes men feel bad.

[NoOneMan]

157. Thats the premise that is unsubstantiated!

you have YET to discuss any of the issues brought up

For the love of God, I have quoted the OP and torn it apart. It is a generalization. It is biased. It is anecdotal. It is divisive


Circular reasoning.

[seabeyond]

160. again... women have time and time again, explained in this thread the issue we deal with and

experiences we have and why that is important in understand the feminist movement. you have shown no interest in the experience. so why would we dismiss our experience for your feel good.

you, almost exclusively, have given me a headache. i am outta here.

[NoOneMan]

165. Enjoy your night

Maybe we will see eye to eye on a different matter one day. In any case, diversity of opinions is a healthy thing.

[seabeyond]

171. i am sure. and thank you. nt

[bettyellen]

236. You think anyone here thinks you are genuine in your "concerns"? HA

That's fucking hilarious. You're like a little kid running around popping balloons. And no one here actually gives a shit what you think. You don't give a shit about feminism.
You think you fooled anyone?

[Bonobo]

168. "Coddling men's ego" is a rather disgustingly male-hating phrase.

You believe that because penises also come equipped with extra-large egos that require "coddling"?

That is analogous to suggesting that women need to be handled with kid gloves because of their bitchy natures. Both are ridiculous generalizations and represent a truly repellant dislike of the other sex.

I hope your sons don't know that you regard the male gender as being one that needs to be "coddled" because they might get the idea that you have contempt for them.

Do you think that MEN do not also have to repress their anger so as not to sound overly aggressive at home and the workplace? Of course we do. Furthermore, if you have to repress your anger so much in those situations, perhaps it is a problem with where you have chosen to spend your time.

I know MY wife does not feel she has to tippy toe when she is angry.

[seabeyond]

176. yes. coddle mens ego. and sometime we can DISCUSS this. and yes, my boys not only understand

what i am talking about, they have seen it a number of times in our community and with the men in our family and know just exactly what i am talking about. because they are aware of it, they are a couple of guys that i can speak my mind, without worrying about this issue and they do not put the stereotypes on it that i mention. it also serves them well in their interaction with girls and women as a whole, not judging women from the conditioned preconceived stereotypes.

and what i am talking about is beyond merely holding your temper at work. it is well documented.

but then, this would eb an example of the issues women have, that men are clueless about and unless they actually listen openmindedly, then they will continue to be clueless.

[boston bean]

178. of if they are constantly on the defensive. Which would

seem strange for a man to feel like that during these discussions, especially if they call themselves a feminist.

[Bonobo]

182. Being defensive at the charge that men are little boys who need to be coddled.

Yes, every time.

It is a disgusting statement. It is sexist and it is no surprise that someone with that attitude would be creating a large amount of needless friction in their life.

If I walked around with that attitude about women, in general, I would also be creating a lot of problems I'm sure.

[boston bean]

192. I don't know what to say to someone who takes an observation

so personally and becomes defensive.

Yes it is a well known meme in feminist circles that we always get what about "teh mens"... when discussing our issues.

Mostly from men, but sometimes women too.

[Bonobo]

196. An "observation" or an "offensive stereotype"?

I vote the latter.

And I take it "personally" in the same way that you might if I said that women have conniving, bitchy natures.

[boston bean]

198. It's not an offensive stereotype.

it's a very true phenomena within feminism.

Much of the time when discussing issues from a womens perspective, you get a bunch of men and sometimes women, trying to filter it through a males perspective.

Much of the time it's from those who are not feminists. Because most feminists get this phenomena.

And how could it possibly be offensive to point out that one is discussing something from a womens perspective and doesn't want to have to fend off people who are attacking slyly with their what about the mens.

Feminism has become a blood sport. To be one you pretty much have to have such thick skin that you never drip a drop of blood. The attacks upon it are outrageous.

[Bonobo]

200. That's not what Seabeyond was referring to.

She was speaking generally about how women have to tiptoe --whether at home or the workplace or out shopping -- in order to "coddle men's egos".

It is offensive because it perpetuates the stereotype that men are perpetually overindulged little boys that would fall apart emotionally without the steady mature hand of the woman/mother.

Does that stereotype exist? Sure it does. Look at all the men that can't get things done in movies with regards to their children, for example. Or commercials. It is all over the place and I do not expect you to have noticed, though, since your focus is on other things. That's fine.
But I am telling you it is an offensive stereotype and you are saying it is not --so really WHO is not listening to WHOM?

[boston bean]

220. So, it is about the men, right?

That's what you just told me.

Seabeyond means what I stated. That we can't have a discussion of womens issues without having to worry about what the men might feel, because of their constant intrusions into our discussions when we are discussing issues that matter to women and how they affect WOMEN.

[Bonobo]

223. No, IT is not if by IT you mean the larger issue of women's rights.

But in discussing issues -when you make a disgusting stereotype, you should be expected to answer for it.

Especially when one is claiming to be open and fair-minded about gender equality issues, one should be expected to NOT perpetuate damaging stereotyopes.

So, pointing the finger at me for "intruding" on an open message board is NOT going to change the fact that a disgusting stereotype that enflames gender discussions was used.

[boston bean]

229. We just agreed, I thought, that it is pretty much a fact

that many will interrupt feminist discussions with "well this happens to men".

Yeah, so it does. It's it feminists fault? Or is it the patriarchal society that perpetuates this. If it's the latter then feminists and feminism is your friend.

Seabeyond is discussing an issue from a feminist perspective, an actual phenomena that occurs throughout our discussions, with men and some women piping in about how bad the men have it and minimizing the real impact of issue that affect women that we are discussing. It's a shameful tactic. And then it's usually followed on that by discussing womens issues from a feminist perspective, we are somehow being bigoted toward men.

You don't like the stereotype you brought up, me either.... Do you really think that feminists are perpetuating that? hell, we want to break gender roles, not keep men locked up in them.

Feminists aren't out to try to disrespect men or insult them by using female based gender stereotypes against men. We are your friend there. The example you provide is usually used by men to make other men feel like they aren't man enough or womanly (sometimes women do it as well). But mostly, it's a problem of the patriarchy and I find it absolutely hilarious that that point is lost on some men and they see feminism as the enemy. When in fact, it is exactly opposite.

[MuseRider]

189. Outstanding.

Outstanding and honest, no coddling, straight ahead truth. I just realized how much I worry and fret over what I say when posting to these threads. How will I come across? Will I be so harsh I lose the message?

I am frankly sick of it and refuse from this point forward to even engage in the conversation. There are a good number of men out there who do get it and they are growing, slowly but they are there. As I have told my husband a thousand times, we can't do anything or say anything to bring men around. They like their privilege and why not, I would if it brought me such as they have. It takes work to understand and apparently many don't think they should have to do the work, they want us to tell them yet they never like or really want to hear it. Fakers. Men need to work on men, as you can see they don't fucking listen to us and just wind things up in a totally destructive manner while pretending, and often really thinking (!) they are helping.

Done with it. I will speak as I will speak. Don't like it alert on me. This constant battering from one side to the other is getting us nowhere fast.

Outstanding post sea.

[jeff47]

202. Asking questions is not telling you what to do.

It's trying to understand why you're doing what you do.

Since men can't experience misogyny like a woman can, we have to ask questions to understand. And those questions are going to have to take an issue apart in order for men to understand. That "confrontation" does not mean the questioner thinks you're wrong. It means men are trying to understand you. "But what about X" is how they expand their understanding.

Whether it's plasma physics or feminism, we have to ask questions that take apart the subject in order to understand.

[Bonobo]

155. You can call people whatever you want, but...

your calling them something does not change what they define themselves as.

In other words, you ONLY have the power to control your own language, but not others.

So you may call men who are feminists 'allies' and refuse to call them "feminists", but it will never change the fact that they themselves can call themselves feminist and so will others.

[boston bean]

156. Did my post say something different than that?

[Bonobo]

161. Well yes.

You said men could not "be" feminists.

I think what you really mean is that you don't want to personally CALL them feminists.

But as to what they "are" --well that is generally something that is in the realm of self-definition or at least open to multiple definitions.

So, if a man calls himself a feminist, I suppose you caould make a deal about saying "no, you're not, you're an ally." but that would just make you look petty, I think.

Your real issue is that your feathers get ruffled when men, who you see as controlling the world, dare to voice an opinion about a domain that you want to assert your dominance in.

In men's parlance, it would be called a "pissing contest".

[boston bean]

162. I myself think that men who are supportive of feminism are allies.

I've been quite consistent.

I obviously cannot control what they call themselves.

[Bonobo]

170. We have reached agreement.

To sum it up:

A man who thinks of himself as a feminist can call himself that.

A woman who thinks of a man as a feminist can call him that.

A woman who thinks men cannot be feminists, can refuse to call or think of him as that.

That was easy!

[boston bean]

177. yep, and it was a worthy topic for discussion.

As you can see, I am not alone in my thoughts on the matter.

Have a good one!

[seabeyond]

179. lmfao... it really is, that easy, lol. nt

[Dash87]

207. "I am a purple dragon with pink horns."

I can say it over and over, but it doesn't make it so. I may also believe myself to be invisible, 10 feet tall, or Santa Claus.

One may also call themselves a feminist, but that doesn't make them a feminist.

[Bonobo]

211. That argument cuts both ways.

You can say that Obama is NOT the president of the United States too.

But he is.

And a man who works for equality for women is a feminist whatever some people choose to say.

[h2]fem·i·nist
/ˈfemənist/
Noun
A person who supports feminism.[/h2]

[Dash87]

214. The problem with that statement, is that being the President is a formal title.

Being a "feminist" is not a formal title, as in "President," "Vice President," "Chairperson," etc. There is no entrance exam or election to become a feminist. It is just something someone is, in part due to the female experience.

It's not all about the sex of the person, either. A better example would be having a lot of money, and pretending to know what it's like to be poor (despite having never been poor).

[Bonobo]

218. Like I said, your argument cuts both ways.

Obviously a person cannot claim to be a purple dragon and expect to be considered one.

But a man who fights for women's rights and lives a life that represents his views of equal rights and who calls himself a "feminist" can generally be considered to be one in light of the fact that the definition of "feminist" is based on the definition of "feminism -namely a person that believes in the doctrines of feminism.

I think that pretty much makes the argument.

Now a woman who resents men being called a "feminist" because they feel the heavy hand of patriarchy everywhere they look and who therefore want to exclude men from their own self-defined group is a different story.

[boston bean]

248. You have anything better to do than make things up in your own mind

and then try to make others believe that what you are saying is what others have said.

No one has said what you are saying.

Quite an imagination you got going there.

I'm going to ask you to refrain from describing feminists as 'feeling the heavy hand of the patriarchy everywhere', as if we are paranoid, unstable women.


That is an attack on this group, and your graphic is leaves much to be desired here.

[JTFrog]

250. That is grounds for banning from the group in my opinion.

Regardless of how that poster will twist it in Meta, they've definitely crossed the line.

[seabeyond]

251. 'feeling the heavy hand of the patriarchy everywhere'

actually, this pretty much proves the point as why men are not feminist. i do not remember bonobo ever claiming to be a feminist, but with comments like this, he would get a big ole, nope.

[seabeyond]

183. why cant women OWN, yes, i mean OWN the womens movement. is it too much to demand. not

ask. cause i am not about to ASK to OWN my own movement.

[liberal N proud]

185. What about men who think that only women should decide women's issues?

We should keep our mouths shut except to be supportive?

Yes dear. (Just kidding on that part).

[seabeyond]

188. again, when talking about black or gay issues, do you inject knowing better as a white or hetero?

cause i gotta tell you, i do not have the arrogance or guts to face a black person or a gay person and tell them their experience doesnt matter, i know better as a straight white woman.

[liberal N proud]

193. Nope, those groups are better suited to know what is right.

Live and let live I show should be and I will offer support without taking sides.

As long as it is not treading on my life, carry on and let me know how to support.

[DonCoquixote]

194. men, women, all other points in the spectrum

lend me your ears.

First off, we all need separate movements because the powers that be want to intrude on all of us, and only we understand certain aspects of life, be it being a race, a gender, a rural poor, a city poor, etc. However, we need to stop sniping, because truth be told, the man, and by that I mean the oligarchy, the folks that make millionaires look like paupers, wants to screw us all over. to quote Ben Franklin "we need to hang together,lest we all hang separate."

[southernyankeebelle]

203. Well I will tell you this and I know it may get some upset. I think feminists helped

the college women move into the work force. For the lower middle class and working poor I don't feel they helped them at all. You look at the jobs women who were able to get a college education and find jobs in great fields. They got good vacations and family time off. Where the working lower class women didn't have that advantage. Don't get me wrong I think they help some but not like the helped the college educated women. I know many women who were like me who felt that way.

[NoOneMan]

217. An unfortunate facet of social activism may be...

that the larger system will only allow you to implement such changes when/if it is determined they are beneficial for the larger system's growth, thereby rendering agents of change merely agents of system reinforcement. This does not mean activism always results in detrimental conditions to the activists' groups, but only if the system's resultant growth/direction negates any such advantage. This is a very interesting notion that I am not endorsing, but think creates some peculiar paradoxes:

Women’s participation in the business and techical world integrates them and their families better into the System. Their talents are of serves to the System in business and technical matters. Feminist emphasis on ending domestic abuse and rape also serves the System’s needs, since rape and abuse, like other forms of violence, are dangerous to the System. Perhaps most important, the editor recognizes that the pettiness and meaninglessness of modern housework and the social isolation of the modern housewife can lead to serious frustration for many women; frustration that will cause problems for the System unless women are allowed an outlet through careers in the business and technical world. - Ted Kaczynski (The Systems Neatest Trick)

Yes, I know who Ted is. Yes, I know he is anti-feminist. And no, I am not evoking his article as an endorsement, but rather as just food for thought.

If we start to see progressive social change as something that increases the ability of autonomous individuals to consume energy, then we must recognize that it promotes not only equality and wealth, but the acceleration of energy and the resultant coupled environmental degradation. If such progress creates a machine that will kill off most planetary life, then perhaps we should reject the idea of "refining" and tinkering with the system, but instead destroying and replacing it.

There are lots of different ways to see the world I suppose.

[southernyankeebelle]

242. Yes your right that there are lots of different ways to see the world. I guess people see it from

Last edited Wed Jan 30, 2013, 06:07 AM - Edit history (1)

the position they hold. I don't mean to offend any fems. They get enough battery from the right. They have done some good. I just wanted to bring another prospective that I see sometimes.

[bettyellen]

254. so, the only things you post are complaints about feminism, LOL

and yet were begging to use the title. Not a shock.

[bettyellen]

240. and that has nothing to do with this thread, but thank you.

[southernyankeebelle]

243. Excuse me but who died and left you queen bee? I was just making a comment. Get over it.

If you don't like it then please don't respond. I don't think I was being disrespectful to anyone. This is why I very seldom come to this thread. Someone always get upset for no reason. I am just offering my personal opinion.

[JTFrog]

246. "Well I will tell you this and I know it may get some upset."

So you post something you're sure is going to upset some folks and then tell them they should just stay away and get over it?

"Someone always get upset for no reason."

Well obviously there was a reason. You said so before you even went out of your way to upset someone. Makes me kind of glad you very seldom "come to this thread".

[southernyankeebelle]

258. Yep.

[bettyellen]

253. I guess "all feminist threads look alike" to you?

But there was a topic- which you had no interest in. But clicked on it since you had a general complaint for the feminists here.
Kind of weird, actually.

[southernyankeebelle]

257. That is one reason I hate getting on these threads. People get so out of shape if you

make a comment. Sorry

[JTFrog]

261. Especially when you make a comment with the intent of getting people out of shape.

Funny how that works.

[bettyellen]

284. apology accepted, 100%. thanks!

[redqueen]

244. How much of workers rights is in the purview of feminism?

Not all of the jobs for college educated women provide good vacations and family time off. Women in academia are punished for time off, as are those on the executive track. Women in blue collar union jobs get a much better deal, time off wise.

Feminism made sexual harassment a crime in the workplace. Issues like time off and family time are less an issue for women specifically than workers in general. The failures in this area are failures of the workers rights movement, not feminism.

[Dash87]

204. I find the concept of men demanding to be recognized as a feminist by women... interesting.

If not a little ironic.

[sigmasix]

213. so disappointing

Sounds like you've got your own sexism to overcome before you worry about the sexism of everybody else. Reproductive organs have nothing to do with support and advancement of political and social philosophies and movements. Isn't this one of the points of feminist thought?
But then again- you obviously have no interest in an intellectual exchange of ideas on this subject since you chose to make such a sweeping sexist generalization in the OP. Perhaps you should join the teabagger movement- they believe in sweeping sexist generalizations and the intellecual and moral inferiority of the "other", just like you.
One day sexists and homophobes-racists and paranoids will have to answer for their inhuman behaviour and beliefs- I'd be interested in hearing your excuse.

[seabeyond]

215. women have been enduring sexism/misogyny forever. how cavalierly you throw it back at women,

with so little experience and no oppression, to equal your struggle to women. and then dare to suggest that you have the compassion and understanding to hold the title of feminist.

truly, amazing.

[Dash87]

216. Since a lot of people seem to not understand the concept here,

it's about experience. You're all acting like the OP said men are not feminists because they have cooties, or something like that. Nobody's kicking you out of their tree house - we're just saying that men don't have enough experience of what it's like to be a woman in order to be a feminist.

It's not intended to be an insult. The same would also be true for women claiming to know what it's like to be male.

[sigmasix]

221. right...

The original OP, with the word "women" substituted for "Men" and another social philosophy.

"I used to think women could be rationalists

Mostly because in my experience, they think the self proclaimed title entitles them to tell men what rationalism should be focusing on, protesting, talking about, etc.

PS I now prefer to call women who are supportive of rationalism, rationalist allies."

Sure sounds sexist now, huh? And all I needed to do was reverse the sex of the subject.
See how that works?
This is, by definition, sexism.

[Dash87]

222. That's a false equivalency.

Rationalism has nothing to do with gender politics. Of course it sounds sexist, because it's a completely different situation where bringing up the sex of a person would be inappropriate. Rationalist-related experiences can be had by both men and women.

Women, on the other hand, experience firsthand the disadvantages that feminism seeks to rectify.

[sigmasix]

287. so you've already decided

that feminism is a movement that requires either the experiences of a woman or the reproductive organs of a woman in it's leaders- as a litmus test for a truly complete intellectual and moral understanding of the feminist movement. This notion is so obviously sexist and the OP's intention has nothing to do with sparking articulated, intellectual debate on the subject; rather it appears that the OP was intended to elicit postings from those that would point the sexism of this particularly virulent form of neofeminism out, so that the resident neofeminist squad can attack those true feminists, like myself, that understand reversing discrimination doesn't have anything to do with the fringe revenge elements that support this sort of sexism.

Any civil justice and fairness movement that doesn't choose it's leaders according to thier capabilities- instead choosing them based on thier reproductive organs- is not about justice and fairness, (even when you really wish it was) -it is more likely that these neo-femisists are interested in a form of female vengeance that disguises itself as feminist crtique. I'm aware of the unpopularity of this charge amongst some of the more radical followers of the feminist school of thought, but your manufactured outrage doesnt change the fact that denying someone a job or position within a civil rights movement, based soley upon thier sex is just sexism- it is particularly abhorent because it is being advocated by people that claim to be feminists, fighting AGAINST sexism.

Let the bullies pile-on...

[seabeyond]

226. really? rationalist? like that is not fuckin' in our face obvious? geeez. fail. nt

[gollygee]

256. We are talking specifically about a women's movement

not a gender-neutral movement. Because the women's movement - feminism - is not gender-neutral, you can't compare it to a gender neutral movement and claim equivalency.

[ZombieHorde]

227. My women's studies professor says there are different types of feminism,

and that we should really say feminisms. What do you think about that?

[NoOneMan]

228. It depends on if your professor is male or female

[ZombieHorde]

230. She is a woman. nt

[NoOneMan]

231. Otherwise your professor would be dictating to women what they must think

But since its a woman, I am not qualified to tell you what I think about it as a mere "ally"

[ZombieHorde]

232. OK. I'm a guy, but I have to write papers on feminism some semesters,

since I enjoy gender classes, so I am used to giving my opinion on the subject. I get punished with bad grades if I don't.

[seabeyond]

235. yes i think feminisms could be accurate and not.

since i know you are well educated on the topic and i know where you are going with this, i have a lot more to say about that.

unfortunately, i do not want more of a mess. i like getting along.

and i am too tired tonight.

what i have seen for the last 6 months over this is....

yes and no to your question because i am no longer seeing the dividing lines of just a year ago, today.

[JustJoe]

233. I'd be honored to be called a feminist ally.

At the same time, I recognize the impulse in me (an impulse expressed by a few men in this thread)--the impulse to protest and fuss and demand that I be seen as a full-fledged feminist and not merely an ally and to argue that you women are trying to make me a second-class citizen in the fight for women's rights and how dare you harrumph etc. In fact, that impulse, and not acting on it, not going its way, is exactly what allows me to see and appreciate the rightness of the term "feminist ally."

[seabeyond]

234. that was awesomely insightful, and

honest.

now... bed for me. now. gotta stop. off the puter for me.

thank you justjoe.

[redqueen]

237. Yep.

You get it.

[MuseRider]

247. Being an ally is an awesome thing.

It is honorable and it is courageous. You do understand. Thank you.

[Deep13]

276. Well that's up to you...

...but I am well aware of the patriarchal nature of society and all that it entails. I am also at least somewhat familiar with historical gender theory and constructed norms and identities. I'm pro-choice, anti-rape, pro-equality, and generally pro-female agency for humanitarian reasons, but also in opposition to the repressive white, male, Christian patriarchy. So, I'm going to keep thinking of myself as a feminist.

[seabeyond]

282. good for you. then, being the feminist you will have also understand that there are MANY different

views amongst the women feminists and that we are not a voice of one on all issues, like all of us had to learn. and learn that though we may believe different things WITHIN our movement, we need to try to disagree respectfully. a lesson i learned not long ago.

and i always appreciate your insight and voice.

[Deep13]

283. thanks, and yes, one can't essentialize a large and diverse group of humans. nt