Rape Culture: 3 Reasons Most Men Are to Blame For Misogyny

[boston bean]

The discourse surrounding rape culture and the pervading attitudes of victim blaming are reaching an all-time epoch with each new shared and re-shared story on a new rape case making its rounds on social media platforms. These cases include most recently the Delhi gang rape case, the Steubenville High School football case, and the Rehtaeh Parsons story, all of which have churned our stomachs, broadened our vernacular around synonyms of "deplorable," and made us shout "why?!"

Why indeed.

Why — we are asked in pictures and Tweets and statuses — are we centering our awareness and education on rape around "not getting raped" as opposed to "don’t rape"? It is a timely question, a highly relevant one, and in many ways the correct one, but one that is far too implicit about the root of the problem and circuitous in its blame.

Thus, I will come out and say it for you, ladies.

It's men. We are the root of the problem and deserving of the blame.

snip...

There are three ways in which we are most culpable:

1. Most obviously, men are almost exclusively the perpetrators:
2. Men have perpetuated a culture around manhood and masculinity that is conducive to misogynist behavior:
3. Men's contribution to the anti-sexual assault movement has mostly been a passive, or neutral, one:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/38057/rape-culture-3-reasons-most-men-are-to-blame-for-misogyny

[redqueen]

1. This is really good.

It looks like some real, fundamental change is possible now.

[ismnotwasm]

2. Excellent!

This kind of thing all to often brings out the whiners--not recognizing themselves in the article.

The things human beings do to maintain privilege.

[boston bean]

9. Look out belooowwww!

[AlbertCat]

3. It's men.

BRILLIANT!

Gay men too?

[ismnotwasm]

4. Deflection alert!

[AlbertCat]

13. Deflection alert!

Whatever that means.

It just seems "It's men" is at the same time a "duh" moment and a little thin.

[Arcanetrance]

5. No one is making the claim it's all men they're just saying men are the cause of the culture

I mean not all men rape but all men do suffer. When I as a man who doesn't rape goes out to a bar for example and I see a female I would like to get to know better if I start to approach her. What goes through her head is oh no this guy is coming up could he be a rapist could he be out to hurt me so she defensive already. Or if a female breaks down on the side of the road I stop to help again she has to size me up and my intentions regardless of what's in my heart or mind she has to think her safety first and foremost. Those are examples of rape culture not all men rape all men suffer from them. So instead of saying well females need to learn to not be raped would it jot be easier to just tell men don't rape and teach men to police each other. Stop relying on Sex to define masculinity and power. I say these as a male who is just fine with the onus being on us since a majority of rape is committed by males.

[ismnotwasm]

7. Thank you

Nicely said.

[raccoon]

8. Good post. nt

[BainsBane]

10. I hope men here listen to you

because you really are awesome.

[Arcanetrance]

11. It would be nice if they did more than listen and actually took action in their own lives

[AlbertCat]

12. I mean not all men rape but all men do suffer.

That is true. But to state "it's men" like that is some kind of revelation....

I don't understand it (rape) at all. But it would seem to have something to do with sexual "roles" in nature. Of course, we are supposed to have civilization, intellect and empathy..... not just nature.

[Arcanetrance]

14. Rape has nothing to do with Sex and nature

Rape is strictly about power. We live in a society that is geared and ruled by us men. The society we live in devalues women to nothing more than objects most of the time. Masculinity is seen as power through strength and sexual conquest and those that would speak up are seen as less manly men have to change. All those things combine to form the rape culture that's put forth by our kind so therefore if society is geared toward us and most rapes are committed by us yes it's men.

[AlbertCat]

19. Rape is strictly about power.

How does that exclude sex and nature?


For that matter, how does any behavior exclude nature? Even altruism?

[Arcanetrance]

28. Here's a link I ask you to read it

The examples show that rape isn't nature as Steven Pinker would suggest cause they examples would be pointless for natural reason. I'm not going to post excerpts due to the graphic nature of some of the things that way people can choose to view themselves.

[link:http://dgrnewsservice.org/2013/03/19/owen-lloyd-steven-pinker-and-the-depoliticization-of-rape/|

[Whisp]

72. rape is not sex.

If a woman is being assaulted and held at knife point and punched and tied up, do you really think she is having sex?

If the man does these things is he having sex? or is he having an ugly hating violent power trip?

[LanternWaste]

73. Do you remember the incident in which US servicemen urinated on Afghan corpses?

"How does that exclude sex and nature?"

Do you remember the incident in which US servicemen urinated on Afghan corpses?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-marines-urination-20130116,0,5196948.story

I think a strong case could be made that it had little to nothing to do with the soldiers voiding their bladders, but rather the simple act of desecrating a corpse *via the mechanism of voiding their bladders*.

I believe that if we accept that premise, we may easily transpose that same "natural behavior" onto the act of rape, and thus it becomes more clear that rape is not an act of sexual behavior, but merely an act of aggression *via the mechanism of forced sex*.

[seabeyond]

15. ah, the old and tired.... it is biology. geeezus. nt

[AlbertCat]

18. ah, the old and tired.... it is biology.

To think it has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual roles in nature is just disingenuous.

Learn to recognize when something is not an excuse.... but has a foot in reality...whether you like it or not.

And did you just ignore the part about how we're supposed to have civilization and intellect? Just ignored that didn't you? Ignoring that also most likely has something to do with nature too.

[ismnotwasm]

20. *sigh*

Link?

[AlbertCat]

22. Link?

I dunno.

Read a Steven Pinker book maybe.

[ismnotwasm]

24. Here, I'll help

Human rape: revising evolutionary perspectives. more
by Melissa Emery Thompson

The role of biology in understanding human rape has been the subject of heated and not always scientific debate.Our study of pervasive sexual aggression in thehuman species can and should be informed by our less emotion-laden analyses of sexual dynamics in closely related species,and warrants objective analysis of scientific predictions within the context of our complex sociocultural environ-ments.In this chapter,I explore hypotheses proposing that some types of hu-man rape function as sexual coercion.Rape by any definition consists of verbalor physical coercion to engage in sexual activity.However,in the context of this book,and from an evolutionary perspective,sexual coercion is more restric-tively viewed as a component of sexual selection.As such, rape is suggested to be a male reproductive strategy—part of a continuum of behaviors,comprising harassment and intimidation,in addition to forced copulation (Clutton-Brock and Parker 1995).Smuts and Smuts (1993) defined sexual coercion as “male use of force,or its threat, to increase the chances that a female will mate with the aggressor or to decrease the chances that she will mate with a rival,at some cost to the female.” There are significant obstacles to a scientific analysis of rape, including discrepancies in subjective assessment and reporting of rapes by victims. Empirically,however,a larger issue concerns categorization of a range of coercive sexual behaviors into the single behavioral category of rape.From a legal and social perspective, this practice is understandable. In terms of evaluating functional hy-potheses,however,the available data suggest that at least two distinct types of rape should be recognized, depending on the preexisting social relationship

http://www.academia.edu/291597/Human_rape_revising_evolutionary_perspectives


There's all kinds of peer reviewed papers and opinion laden books on this topic. I simply wanted to know if you are spouting an uninformed opinion, or if you've put a little effort into it. It's a serious topic, but an interesting debate.

[AlbertCat]

35. It's a serious topic, but an interesting debate.

And an emotional one. Which is why no one seems to be "getting" my main beef which was "It's men"....and why I put in the equally absurd statement "gay men ?".

It just seemed to me a lot of folk were running with some version of "the blank slate" thing....that men are taught to rape completely by society.

We are animal with instincts and millions of years of evolved behavior. But I certainly don't mean any of these notions to be an excuse for any bad behavior. In the case of rape, there are plenty of reasons NOT to, both biological and social. One still must make a decision to act on impulses. One can choose NOT to act...or seek help if that proves difficult.

[ismnotwasm]

42. You ignored the fact that Gay men can be both victims of rape

And rapists. In much smaller numbers, true although I think as far as victims go, people would be surprised at the number of Gay men who have been sexually harassed and sexually assaulted. This is far too often ignored in scholarly papers on rape, because those are written from a heteronormative standard. As I surmised in my post below, there is no evolutionary benefit to male gay rape using evo-psych standards. Why would it occur at all?

[ismnotwasm]

30. And an opposite POV

Critiquing the book that started this mess.

Men and the History of Rape

by Adriene Sere

Most men don't rape. This is what the studies tell us.

Why, then, does male culture romanticize rape? Why are images of violence against women in the media intriguing to so many men? Why are woman-bashing radio hosts, such as Tom Leykis and Howard Stern, so extraordinarily popular among young to middle-aged men? Why do men enjoy seeing the romanticization of force and domination of women in the movies? Why do men support and participate in rape culture if they don't themselves rape?

Such questions came to mind when a new book called A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion hit the media circuit, receiving so much fanfare that its publishers, MIT Press, moved up the date of publication by several months. The Sciences, an academic journal put out by The New York Academy of Sciences, featured an excerpt of the book. The authors, Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer, were given the spotlight on Dateline, The Today Show, CNN, as well as National Public Radio. The book received major, often uncritical, coverage in newspapers around the world and, of course, was extensively promoted by hate-radio personalities like Tom Leykis.

The media's excitement is based on the book's argument that "rape is, in its very essence, a sexual act" that developed through evolution. Evolution created men's desire to rape, the argument goes, by favoring unattractive men who raped over unattractive ones who didn't. The unattractive men who raped passed on their sexuality through their genes, and therefore all modern men are biologically wired to rape women.

Because the authors and their publishers cannot admit to having a pro-rape agenda, they claim to be motivated by the desire to prevent men's sexual attacks on women. Rape is best prevented, the authors argue, by requiring "educational" classes for those trying to obtain a driver's license. At these classes, the instructors would explain to young men how natural rape is, and then tell them that they shouldn't rape. Instructors would advise young women to cover their bodies so they don't provoke sexual attacks. In their scholarly concern for women's safety, The Sciences illustrated Thornhill and Palmer's argument with pictures of naked women and women's body parts.


http://www.saidit.org/archives/mar00/mar_article2.html

[seabeyond]

68. kick ass excellent article. "Few men actively fight against the system of rape."

Men have, throughout known history, constructed systems of slavery, organized wars, designed life-threatening technology. Men have also struggled to end slavery, to stop imperialism, to dismantle nuclear weapons. Large numbers of men carry on the fight against racism. They fight against global warming. They fight for the rights of oppressed peoples even when they are not among the oppressed. They commit vandalism for animal rights, and civil disobedience to save the redwoods. They fight for the homeless. They expose corporate greed. They organize against the misuse of genetic engineering. They put themselves on the line to shut down the WTO.

But then there's rape. Few men actively fight against the system of rape. As much as men love women, care about women, interact with women, depend on women, rape is the one institution of oppression that has escaped any sizable opposition on the part of men. Instead, some men offer enthusiastic ears to the promotion of pro-rape books. Many defend the "free speech" of pornographers and woman-bashers. Many sabotage the efforts of women in their lives to succeed and gain positions of power. Many men pressure their wives and girlfriends not to demand gender equality. Some men argue in one breath, "Not all men rape -- what are you, a man-hater?" and in the next, "Rape is natural to all men."

Of course, nature makes many things possible. But rape -- like war, like slavery -- is a man-made system of terror and oppression. Men have carefully constructed it, and they are able to dismantle it. The question that won't be heard on the media circuit anytime soon is: When will men stop perpetuating and defending their rape-system? When will they start organizing in significant numbers -- and significant numbers are all we need -- to bring their rape-system to an end?

[MadrasT]

25. Tossing around phrases like "sexual roles in nature"

is blatant rape apologia... whether you like it or not.

[AlbertCat]

39. is blatant rape apologia

Only in your emotional mind...... whether you like it or not.

A human is not a blank slate that must "learn" all behavior. But a human can make a decision to follow impulses or not. There are no excuses here. One must make a decision.... and there are plenty of reason NOT to rape. No apologia here at all.

[ismnotwasm]

47. Are you suggesting

Rape is the default behavior of males and they must 'decide' not rape?

Or am I reading you wrong?

[AlbertCat]

67. default behavior

I don't know what that is.

All I'm saying is genes "tend" toward things and the environment either supports it or not.... in many (but not all) behaviors. Genes do not always dictate behavior. One must choose. Genes are not an excuse. Pointing out genetic dispositions, which are not universal in degree, is not apologizing for the behavior....or condoning it, or approving of it or any of the other conclusion people might jump to re emotional subjects.

Richard Dawkins had his genome mapped. It showed that he had a genetic disposition that might have killed him. It was one where, if he smoked, he would tend to inhale deeply and smoke longer. But he never started smoking.... so the tendency never got to manifest itself.

[MadrasT]

56. More rape apologia. n/t

[boston bean]

59. That jerk had the nerve to say in your "emotional" mind.

I have no idea if you've ever been a victim of rape, or sexual assault, but this poster responding to you, seems to think you have been, and therefore thinks your opinion is based in emotion, not factual. Ie, a victim of such a thing could never really hold an unbiased opinion.

This is pissing me off to no end!

[MadrasT]

63. The "emotional" crack was such an obvious swipe it wasn't worth addressing.

Only reaction that provoked from me was a smirk.

"You're being emotional" is one of the standard weapons in the arsenal of misogynists.

It is a commonly used attack on women -- all women -- not just victims of rape/assault.

a) he has no idea what my emotional state is
b) even if I was "emotional", so fucking what?
c) as an Aspie I am pretty flat emotionally, so being accused of being "emotional" is extra-LOL-hilarious to me - I am more commonly accused of being a cold, unfeeling, emotionless robotlike creature who lacks empathy for anything that isn't feline

[ismnotwasm]

65. He's also not responding to questions that directly challenge his POV

No interest in discussion. Oh well, I tried. *sigh* (again)

[seabeyond]

69. you emotional ... girl, you. near hysteria, huh? bring out the couch,

to swoon on.

lordy. keep them coming and we might take you seriously.

[seabeyond]

37. you promote a theory on guess and storytelling and then suggest it is fact.

no. i do not buy it.

the very simplest of argument that the majority does not rape, nor are inclined to rape shoots your stupid ass theory out of the park.

and that is only the beginning.

[AlbertCat]

43. you promote a theory on...

... observation and science. The "blank slate" theory you seem to suggest has been debunked.

[seabeyond]

45. ??? i would actually have to make a statement in order to promote, as you suggest. nt

[ismnotwasm]

16. Rape in my opinion is a kind of accepted pathology

The evolutionary psychology view that's its adaptive has been well criticized, and thought not to have enough evidence to support such a claim.

Personally, I don't believe men are 'wired' to rape. They are taught through socialized pathology. Feminists who think like myself call this socialized pathology patriarchy.

Your original comment about Gay men I found inappropriate because gay men suffer from rape as do straight men, just not in the same numbers as women do. Which could be an argument against the evolutionary psychology rape-as-adaptive proponents.

One of the problems with looking at something as pathological as rape and saying 'its about procreation' is that it leaves out far too many factors; once evolutionary theorists go down that road it can be used to justify things like infanticide as 'adaptive' as well. Or thievery. Or murder. Or cannibalism. Human beings are both simple and complex, and proving unacceptable or pathological behavior having evolutionary roots is problematic at best. Especially human sexuality, which we are finding more and more that gendered roles are social constructs.

In any case, the rape situation of the here and now, it doesn't matter. Most men aren't rapists. What the article is talking about is complicity of male behavior in rape culture.

[AlbertCat]

44. Your original comment about Gay men I found inappropriate

Yea! You "got" it! As sophomoric as "It's men.".... which is what I was really commenting on.

[AlbertCat]

48. it can be used to justify things

Hardly. One still must decide to act..... or not act.

Genes and chromosomes may set up inclinations, but the environment either supports or does not support them.

[mercuryblues]

71. so are you

saying, men think about raping people. They just choose not to act on those thoughts?

[Skittles]

17. ARCANETRANCE.GETS.IT.

YES INDEED

[geek tragedy]

21. Rape culture and homophobia have common origins.

In fact, it is surprising to find one present but not the other.

In general, we men should at the very least not be passive enablers by running interference for rape culture--we shouldn't dismiss concerns over misogyny, complain about mean feminists picking on us when they raise these issues, etc.

[Arcanetrance]

6. Very well put

[geek tragedy]

23. I don't disagree with anything written here, but I wonder how effective the phrasing and

theme of 'blame' is, as opposed to something like "ownership" or "responsibility."

Yes, misogyny gets planted as a seed in the soil of boys' minds. And bears bitter fruit.

But, imo, "blame" is more effective to get someone to stop doing something than it is to get them to do something.

And what's really needed is for men to affirmatively reject misogyny and rape culture because it's what they should do as men, not because they're shamed into doing it, which will more often than not provoke either a defensive posture or outright defiance--nobody likes to be told what to do, and part of our male enculturation is that a real man stands up for himself and doesn't let other people tell him what to do.

As I said, I don't disagree on an empirical basis with anything he wrote--but it seems like something designed to elicit nods from those who agree moreso than persuade those who disagree.

[ismnotwasm]

26. Yes, the word 'blame' changes the framing for sure

Its Interesting actually.

[geek tragedy]

29. Raises a whole bunch of issues re: agency, collectivism vs individualism

is misogyny an embedded cultural norm like a virus that infects people or is it the product of wrongful behavior and beliefs on the part of individuals, etc.

[redqueen]

38. It is both.

We are all raised in it and most are unable to even see it unless it is pointed out, and some not even then.

Some choose to remain willfully ignorant even after it is explained, and at that point it stops being about a collective cultural bias and becomes a personal choice.

It's like racism or homophobia. You can be raised in a house where those beliefs are subscribed to, but st some point it stops being about 'the way you were raised'.

However, with patriarchy/misogyny, all but the most blatant forms are still insidiously interwoven into the fabric of our daily lives. So its a lot more involved and harder to see.

[redqueen]

27. Well Jonathan Katz and Robert Jensen have been trying the soft sell for years with little progress.

So I'm all for men like this taking a less deferential approach.

[geek tragedy]

31. I met Robert Jensen a few years ago, Very pleasant fellow.

I think the bigger problem, honestly, is that combatting misogyny amongst men runs counter to big economic interests. Gender stereotypes make for useful marketing hooks, whether the product is cars, guns, movies, etc.

Hard to say whether Katz and Jensen have had little progress because they're using soft sell or because, quite honestly, they aren't especially high profile. To the extent Jensen became high profile, it was for his article on the 911 attacks that got a lot of blowback (much of it unfair, of course).

This sounds shallow, but misogyny has to be made uncool the way that homophobia has been made uncool.

[ismnotwasm]

32. That's not shallow

And I think it's what activists on college campuses are trying to do. Make it uncool, sick, sorry, sad.

[geek tragedy]

36. One approach, imo, is to unbundle the traits of what's considered 'manly'

In order to universalize revulsion at misogyny/rape culture/mistreatment of women, it has to be that such revulsion becomes a 'manly' virtue rather than perceived as a feminist critique. It should get to the point where it where it's no surprise to see weightlifting, deer-hunting, power tool-toting, rugged dudes with firm handshakes explicitly reject misogyny and rape culture as not worthy of men. We're seeing that now with homophobia. It's homophobes that are stigmatized and look like weenies.

Fully aware that the concepts of manliness and feminity are problematic in its own right on multiple levels, but knots get untied one loop at a time.

[redqueen]

41. IMO playing into that 'manly' crap only strengthens the gender knot.

So agree to disagree on this one.

[geek tragedy]

49. I can definitely see your point. I don't mean that the manly stuff should be validated, only

that misogyny/rape culture should be separated from the rest of the herd of supposedly manly traits.

Nowadays there's very little association between being a macho dude and supporting homophobia. 20 years ago much different story.

Case in point: Mel Gibson was free to engage in gay-bashing humor in Braveheart in 1995, to the point of making a joke over killing gay men. Because, you know, yuck yuck it was funny how that limp-wristed prince got slapped around, and how his fancy boyfriend got thrown out the window hee hee and how the king's daughter in law's life changed when she met a 'real man.'

Fuck. Mel Gibson, who was publicly a virulent homophobe long before the anti-semitism came out, was mainstream 20 years ago.

[redqueen]

33. Oh I agree, it has to become uncool (not socially acceptable).

But how best to do that?

Why is Jonathan Katz's work not popular with men?

[ismnotwasm]

34. Vicious cycle

He was largely ignored because he challenged sexual privilege, where things such as, say, evo-psych rape apologist books and articles, even the sincere ones that remind us that evolution has no 'morals'---don't.

[geek tragedy]

40. Most men haven't heard of him.

They probably know of him via the cartoon if anything.

Why haven't they heard of him? I dunno. Who gets famous and who doesn't is often random.

[redqueen]

46. Disagree again.

I think, as ism alludes to above, he's saying stuff most don't want to hear.

Evo psych rape apologia - all over the net.
Jonathan Katz - mostly crickets.

[AlbertCat]

50. Evo psych rape apologia - all over the net.

No apologia.... no one has said it's OK to rape.

One must still make a decision to act on impulses.... or not act

It's an attempt to better understand why homo sapiens act as they do so we can do something about it if possible.

The notion that it is all taught by society is a version of the very flawed "Blank Slate" ideas of the 19th and 20th centuries.

[redqueen]

53. It's rape apologist bullshit.

There aren't hordes of barely-informed people using that crap to rationalize murder, or theft, or any other crime.

It's mostly just wildly popular among those who like to rationalize why rape isn't treated like other crimes. (Oh, so you had given away money to people before, how do we know he didn't just get confused about whether or not you were giving it away this time? Do you really want to ruin this young man's life by accusing him of mugging you?)

[ismnotwasm]

54. You are the only one that brought up 'blank slate'

There is a real debate in evolutionary theory about pathological behaviors. This is not one of them. The original article was about current behavior, and I believe you took exception to the title, which is fine, but tossing in 'to act or not act' on impulses leaves out entire behavioral disciplines and is not a reasonable or sustainable argument

[seabeyond]

70. there is no "impulse" to rape. and continually stating this as a fact is indeed a rape apologist. nt

[geek tragedy]

51. I don't disagree that he's saying stuff a lot men don't want to hear.

But, is that the reason he's relatively low profile in terms of pop culture?

I dunno.

There are very few public figures who really matter in terms of popular culture and attitudes therein. And fewer who stay in such a position for years.

Who does have an enduring influence on popular culture? Media (film, tv, radio, internet) executives.

[upaloopa]

52. Pure guilt trip self loathing horse shit

You need to start off by stating "In my opinion."

[boston bean]

57. I didn't see you starting off saying "In my opinion"

Which is horseshit, btw, too, imho.

But none the less, the title to the OP is the exact title of the article.

So, if anyone should have said and that's up for debate, "In my opinion" in the title of the article, it would have been the original author of the article..

[upaloopa]

60. IMHO the article is guilt tripping self loathing horse shit

Thanks for pointing that out.

[whathehell]

74. She doesn't "need" to do a thing.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen.

[redqueen]

55. LOL, check out the ad that the words on this page 'somehow' relate to.

[FBaggins]

58. Pretty ridiculous

1. Most obviously, men are almost exclusively the perpetrators:

All squares are rectangles, therefore rectangles are squares? Blacks are statistically far more likely to commit violent crimes, therefore most blacks are to blame for crime? We would spot this as racism without pausing for breath... yet this nonsense passes for reasonable?

2. Men have perpetuated a culture around manhood and masculinity that is conducive to misogynist behavior:

Circular argument. Men are to blame for misogyny because men are to blame for misogyny

3. Men's contribution to the anti-sexual assault movement has mostly been a passive, or neutral, one:

A real laugher. Unless you meet my expectations/definition for solving the problem, you're actually part of the problem. I'm quite certain that many who find this compelling would not accept the mirror position.

[galileoreloaded]

61. it doesnt matter.

in an echo chamber, only the constancy of sound and never the quality of it is important.

[boston bean]

62. good bye... good bye

we... we... don't... don't... put... put... up... up... with... with... posters... posters... who... who... make... make... attacks... attacks... against... against... this... this... group....

[ismnotwasm]

64. LOL

Good. My civility quotient was full.

[whathehell]

75. +100 n/t

[redqueen]

66. Let's play Spot the Logic Fail!

1. Most obviously, men are almost exclusively the perpetrators:

All squares are rectangles, therefore rectangles are squares? Blacks are statistically far more likely to commit violent crimes, therefore most blacks are to blame for crime? We would spot this as racism without pausing for breath... yet this nonsense passes for reasonable?

Your first sentence simply makes no sense, so we'll move on to the only thing of substance you said here, which is your incredibly flawed analogy. See the part I bolded, in which you substituted 'crime' in general in place of a specific type of crime? That's a pretty poor effort to try to portray this as being somehow bigoted.

2. Men have perpetuated a culture around manhood and masculinity that is conducive to misogynist behavior:

Circular argument. Men are to blame for misogyny because men are to blame for misogyny

Again with the oversimplification in an effort to distort meaning. You don't actually believe what you're saying, do you? I sure hope not.

If you do, then simply try not substituting your own words in place of his, then go look up the definitions of the words he uses, and try to work out where you got confused.

3. Men's contribution to the anti-sexual assault movement has mostly been a passive, or neutral, one:

A real laugher. Unless you meet my expectations/definition for solving the problem, you're actually part of the problem. I'm quite certain that many who find this compelling would not accept the mirror position.

Again, this makes no sense. You could argue that his opinion of whether an action is passive or neutral is subjective, but it has nothing to do with his "approval". The only logical way to refute this statement would be to cite a sizeable amount of contributions by men against sexual assault that isn't passive or neutral. (Because, as you might have noticed, he did qualify that statement by saying it was "most" of the contributions he was referring to.)

Better luck next time!

[whathehell]

76. LOL. n/t

[gaspee]

77. Reading these replies? Makes me so fucking angry!

Know what I read when I read these sniveling, whiny little boys complaining? I read - I don't care what you feel! I am going to be an asshole and you and women in general need to shut the fuck up. Go make me a sandwich.

Ya know how they like to say if feminists were *nicer* they might behave like civilized humans instead of animals? Well, these people are making me hate men. So maybe if they were nicer and didn't basically say - fuck you, I love my privilege and will continue supporting the mass raping and killing of women to keep it! So there! Well, they are making me hate men. Wonder if they even get that. They sure as shit don't *care*

[redqueen]

78. You reminded me of this.

"...it takes almost no criticism at all in order for men to feel "bashed," like it's "open season on men." In fact, just saying "male privilege" or "patriarchy" can start eyes rolling and evoke that exasperated sense of "Here we go again.” (Allan Johnson, “Privilege, power and difference,” p. 197)

"Accusations of male bashing and man hating work to discredit feminism because people often confuse men as individuals with men as a dominant and privileged category of people. Given the reality of women's oppression, male privilege, and some men's enforcement of both, it's hardly surprising that EVERY woman should have moments when she resents or even "hates" men.” (Allan Johnson, "The gender knot," p. 107

[BainsBane]

79. for some misandry equals

pointing out sexism.

[whathehell]

80. Yep. I agree with Allan Johnson.

When some men here accuse me of "hating" men, I have to laugh, as the truth is,

I LIKE men, generally -- I had an excellent, loving father and now have a husband

with similar qualities. The only men I do NOT like, are the ones who, in fact, don't

"like" me, or women in general in the sense of not RESPECTING us as people.

Some of the anti-feminists here would be quite surprised, I believe, if they met me in person

as I'm generally friendly and outgoing and others seem to find me smart and funny.

I've never been in an abusive relationship, and thank god for that! Abusers must feel my "vibes"

or something, because I rarely, as a single woman in social situations, attracted them.

I once read that daddy's girls are "natural feminists" and I was definitely one of those.

I grew up respecting others AND expecting them to respect me...I never understood

how someone (like an abusive partner) could convince a woman he "liked" or "loved" her if he

insulted her, or wanted to control her, let alone got violent with her.

The thing is, I believe women (and men, for that matter) have to have ZERO tolerance

for disrespect or abuse. Self-respect must always come first.