How many times does it need to be proved before people start to care?

[redqueen]

Last edited Thu May 17, 2012, 01:06 PM - Edit history (1)

After reading this, the latest study showing that yes - objectification is actually a real thing, I couldn't help but wonder why so few seem to notice or care, despite study after study.

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/people-see-sexy-pictures-of-women-as-objects-not-people.html

The worst part is at the end, where this guy says we need to study how this constant dehumanization influences the way society treats women.

Is that some kind of a sick joke? This is very well studied. This has been researched already, the effects of objectification/dehumanization.

Anyone saying that 'well, we really don't know if it has any meaningful effect' is simply lying to themselves.

Objectification has intensified significantly in recent decades, and it is no coincidence that we have attacks not only on women's rights to control their own reproductive systems, but also domestic violence laws, watering down of sexual assaults statistics, etc.

It is past time to say that enough is enough.


Also please nite that this thread is in a protected group. This is NOT the day for dealing with whataboutery, anti-feminists, etc.

[LiberalLoner]

1. Every woman lives with this every day.

We are things, not people.

Honestly I don't see how to fight this, it's so deeply ingrained and goes back millions of years really.

I just try to live my life with my husband and try to avoid jerks as much as possible. I had to put up with a whole lot of jerks when I was younger. I'm tired now. I'm 50, and I'm tired.

[redqueen]

3. I understand.

It gets old being ignored, mocked, and vilified. Really old.

[seabeyond]

23. i have started playing a game, just cause i like to. lol. bored. decades of being accessed

for fuckable. it is so clear and easy to see when this is done. the other day in the car, a young guy (and now that milf is such a hoot, the young are looking at the fuckablity of the old women... i assume) did that appraising shit. so i make eye contact. dont drop the eyes. dont turn away and allow him to access qualities. eye.... to eye. was a hoot. the guy and i just eye contacted all the way thru his left hand turn as i sat at the light.

i am doing that more and more because it is a little dance. he looks, we see him look, lower head or look away allowing the accessing. i am not looking down or turning head away, anymore. i break up that little dance. i think i should be able to pick out my veggies without being accessed.

i have also made the eye contact, do a sweep of the man and the accessing (certain look/face, easy to do) and watch the man lower the head and move on. that one is telling and interesting. i would like to see this studied and then get the feed back from men.

i am tired of hearing men say, just appreciating beauty or whatever crap. it is an ownership which is beyond stupid. for a couple decades now, happily married and content with life, i do not need the validation of a man deciding if i am fuckable to feel good about myself. i do not need an ugly old fart approval of being worthy in this society. i let that stuff go a long time ago. now, it is only an irritant.

i see it more. i see it as a privilege. i see it at the point of being rude. and i have my theories why i see it worse today, than a couple decades ago when i was younger. it really should be well the opposite.

that is not to say, in anyway, i am rude to people or have issue with people. all the time, i interact with the public/strangers. i am one of the most connecting people with people outside the house. it is amusing and family think it is funny cause i am such an isolationist, yet, i am so social and can chat with and draw anyone in. i have fun walking thru my day playing with people, and they do, too. old, young, man, woman, child.... doesnt matter. and there are many more men that do not do this, where we will have a chuckle over something and walk away smiling. feeling good.

[MadrasT]

27. OMG I have been doing this too.

I *refuse* to look away or look down and allow that to happen unchallenged.

Everything you wrote applies to me, too. Except maybe the last paragraph. I am not quite *that* social. But I do have some nice random verbal interactions with strangers, in the grocery store, hardware store, concerts, whatever.

[seabeyond]

29. isnt it funny, fun and interesting. maybe if more women did this and did not take the docile role

of looking down and allowing, the men would "get it". or be uncomfortable enough to think twice.

my kids did it for me. when they were babies, i refused to be hushed and talk to them quietly or not talk to them at all, out and about. so many people are so tightly contained in their space, while in public. i didnt want to teach the little ones that behavior. so, we have always gone thru the day in normal tones. that always draws others into our world. it was our entertainment and socialization when they were little. our adventure.

i also cannot walk past a baby that is laying there or little one, or even a kid, when they make eye contact as if they are not valued humans worthy of acknowledgment. so, i am always stopping to make contact with the baby laying there while mom/dad are busy, to say hi. people have always been receptive.

there was a time when my youngest said, it is so embarassing you talking to everyone. fine.... i stopped. right then, right there. a week or two later he says.... there is a baby, arent you going to say hi. no way i tell him, i dont want to EMBARASS you. and walked away. no mom, no, you gotta, you dont embarass me really.

i made him beg me to go back to who i was.

but, all the people i know really enjoy this part of me and it is really freeing to walk in life being authentic with having to draw up walls, or tightly contain myself.... in life.

my shy niece now at 19 is working on doing the same. i love watching her bloom and she started so much younger than i.

i, too, use to be shy and within self, when in public.

[patrice]

2. Been trying to use that word "objectification". No one knows what it means. And when

you try to explain, they slap a label on you and don't listen.

No one thinks about *h*o*w* they think anymore.

[redqueen]

4. That's why I was so excited about Miss Representation.

I thought maybe finally we could start to raise awareness about this issue in a major way.

[patrice]

7. A friend told me that the latest issue of Scientific American: MIND has some good brain research

in it, especially as it applies to the sexes.

[seabeyond]

25. if you find anything interesting, will you share, lol. i LOVE that stuff. nt

[patrice]

30. I'd LOVE to. It's hard to get people to pay attention to it & it's FASCINATING.

I will have to find a book store though and get my copy today.

[seabeyond]

31. this really is my kind of stuff. and i have found a couple people in this forum

that enjoy it too. fortunately i have raised two boys.... thru a lifetime of theirs talking about this stuff, that is better than most all adults. so, they keep me interested and entertained and not boring. not something hubby had growing up. one of the things he appreciates the most in my parenting.

[patrice]

43. Many young people have much to teach us. Talking is a HUGE issue. Authentic conversation.

I love the way that the neurophysiology in particular makes me think about the cosmos inside my body that is part of the cosmos outside of my body. All one.

Neurophysiology is great FUN to teach to youngsters too. There are lots of activities you can do to illustrate various aspects of sensation and perception and de-mystification is autonomy.

[seabeyond]

47. ok, i love you, too. lol. you are fun.

i had my two nephews, niece and two boys at table, all 7 and under. three of these kids didnt have a lot of insightful, reflective conversation. they would get a lot of it when they came into my house. i would love watching them process the new in conversation where thought was valued. lol.

my kids were always around it, grew up with it, was expected of them. anything less was boring...

they were sitting at the table doing clay and we were conversing. and i told them, the kids, the babies have taught me more about life, than my whole lifetime of learning. that though i am teaching them lots.... all these kids at the table has taught me way more.

cosmos inside

this is what i am talking about.... but gotta go. and want to put in the other post.

[patrice]

51. Funny you should bring that up, because I was thinking, on my errand, that some youngsters do

not appear to have that much to teach the rest of us. I'm thinking about what this means . . .

On my out again to be with the ladies of our Occupy, so I'll have to keep on thinking for a while and try to do this justice later.

today!

[seabeyond]

24. "No one thinks about *h*o*w* they think anymore." isnt that interesting.

i touched on this with my son "story" below. people being so dogmatic on their right and their independent as they allow, revel, wallow in the conditioning of society and media. it is funny.

[patrice]

37. Dogmatism = physical buzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It's a physical reward to itself. A feedback loop.

That's why, when you suggest alternatives, or even hardcore facts, nothing makes any difference to the dogmatic. The best you can do is reveal what they are doing. Not sure that ever changes that kind of person, but at least you and others learn from the process of trying to bring a little light into that situation.

Religion often makes dogmatism worse, by getting people to believe that that buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz is "the Holy Spirit" and, then, creating whole communities of buzzzzzzzzzzzzzz addicts, to which authentic works of real Christianity are secondary to the rewards associated with them. I HAVE met some religious people who are not functioning out of brainwashing, but I'd bet the most common mode, given the things they say about "faith", is robot.

I'm not sure I can change anyone, these people have to change themselves, but at least we can be honest about what is going on and maybe even REVEAL THE PROGRAMMERS.

[MadrasT]

5. That is a *very* interesting study.

People recognized right-side-up men better than upside-down men, suggesting that they were seeing the sexualized men as people. But the women in underwear weren’t any harder to recognize when they were upside down—which is consistent with the idea that people see sexy women as objects. There was no difference between male and female participants.

Really interesting that the pictures of males registered as "people" and the pictures of females registered as "objects".

And that male and female participants did not show any difference in how they perceived the pictures.

[redqueen]

6. Yes, it is valuable for confirming the difference.

Men are increasingly objectified, no one disputes that. However the amount and intensitity f the objectification obviously has very real effects.

And yes, women are just as susceptible to this conditioning.

[MadrasT]

8. I love when the study already includes the answers to the whataboutery.

[redqueen]

13. Ha, yes,

That is convenient.

[patrice]

21. Yeah! "Whataboutery"! That's what's missing. We NEED more of that! nt

[seabeyond]

28. men can be objectified to the moon, and it is not going to be the same because we do not have the

same role. we are the presenters and men are the ones that own sex. as long as that is.... men cannot be objectified as a thing in the same manner. they will always be viewed as the person. we do not own our sexuality. they own theirs and ours.

[redqueen]

42. That is a very important point.

Thanks for that correction.

[seabeyond]

26. that would shoot that damn theory, once again, that it is all biological and we cant help ourselves.

once again showing.... we are people conditioned.

[Javaman]

9. It will never go away, but it will be greatly reduced when ad firms stop

using "sex sells" as the main tool of their industry.

[abelenkpe]

10. Do you honestly think ad agencies will

Stop using sex sells in their ads?

[Javaman]

11. really, that's your reply to my opinion?

the OP asked and I replied.

I really have no idea why you jumped down my throat.

Whether you think my opinion is reality or not, is irrelevant to the conversation. I just offer up the most logical solution.

If you don't care for it, then that's your opinion, but frankly, why start a fight were there is none to be had?

[redqueen]

12. Yes, that's a good first step, reducing it by eliminating gratuitous objectification in ads.

Norway and Denmark have stepped into the forefront on this, by making a lot of it illegal (it is still allowed in ads where it can be argued that its related to the product).

I hope awareness campaigns result in that law becoming more common.

It really is a shame, though, that more people can't simply see the situation, recognize the harm, and adjust their attitude... but... priorities, I guess.

[Javaman]

14. As sort of a side note and an interesting result...

I have made the conscious effort to avoid buying anything at malls and try my best to buy from locals stores. As an interesting result, (could be that age has played a role as well), I make my choices of things to buy based more now than ever on recommendations of friends and opinions of people I respect. Cutting out network TV and most of my magazine subscriptions (sad in a way) has limited the amount of time various ads have played a roll upon my psyche.

[MadrasT]

16. Oh me too!

Avoiding consumerism, avoiding big stores and malls, and support locally owned businesses. I have no internet or cable or magazines.

(The one I can't seem to avoid is Home Depot... in the middle of a huge home renovation and doing most of the work myself... seems like I am there 4 times a week, LOL.)

I have definitely noticed a shift in my attitude in the 7 years since I moved out to the country and started living more simply.

When I travel on business and stay in a hotel that has cable TV, I am just flabbergasted at the ads and the reality shows. Unbelievable. Just amazing. Toddlers and Tiaras? 16 and Pregnant? Storage Wars? The idiotic commercials? Oh my.

[Javaman]

19. I too am a slave to home desperate.

I did the renovation tango myself a few years ago. I sympathize.

You're right. When my GF and I recently went away for vacation I was appalled at the amount of advertising on TV now.

Once upon a time in my primordial days, I worked for AMC and Bravo. (this was in the days before they had commercials and reality tv). I switched on those stations and they were an abomination. I just couldn't get over just how awful they are now.

If there ever were a barometer of how far we have fallen, it's the complete commercialization of Bravo.

[seabeyond]

36. yup. i have been feeling for hubby, cause he lost his history on history channel. something he

really enjoyed. now it is all shows.... and you have to upgrade package to get history 2 that has the stuff he likes. i was talking about paying more for this package, which i dont want. kids about exclusively watch espn if tv is on for them. it isnt on often. i dont watch. and hubby would only watch the documentaries. we dont like the trash or want it in the house. so what to do.

i brought it up a couple nights ago, and he said, not worth it. so, i felt better. i dont want him to do without. but, if he is ok, then i am better, lol.

[Javaman]

44. I have switched from watching history on tv...

(aside from reading) to listening to history podcasts. There are some wonderful ones. Don Carlin's Hardcore History is the first to come to mind.

I listen to them when I do various projects around the house and it makes the time fly by.

[seabeyond]

48. excellent. thank you java. i am clueless, but hubby would be able to figure this out.

i will make the suggestion. after a long day of fixing puters, he often has to come home and work on them some more. so he turns on the tv. but this would work fine. thanks

[seabeyond]

34. "started living more simply." did that more than a decade ago. thing, pffft. lol

i love that things are so irrelevant to me.

except my two pair of boots i love, lol. just for you. and really, teasing.

[MadrasT]

41. Please...

There is not much in the world that can't be made better by my turquoise cowboy boots.

Just sayin'.

[seabeyond]

49. lmfao... ya. that

dont need 50 pair though. one fun pair works. appreciation is so much more.

[seabeyond]

33. agreed. good for you. and i think you are right.

our tv watching has changed. i watch none, unless hubby turns it on. and we now have the same considerations as you. throw into the mix of all the very cheap product that breaks in no time and having to replace.... absolutely.

[seabeyond]

32. maybe go back to just the "creepy" man instead of a lot of men? nt

[Javaman]

35. You mean like the old "spokesman" from the 1950's?

"buy Lux! Not only to 10 out of 10 people think their teeth are whiter, but their feet smell good too!"

That kind of thing?

[seabeyond]

38. wasnt around in the 50s so i dont know..... i am not really talking about ads though, but

behavior. and i know behavior was different in the 70's- 90's. was the mid 90's i saw things shifting.

[Javaman]

46. You're right.

once upon a time there was the "trusted voice" in blah (fill in your own consumer product), then it morphed into this new hypersensitive seizure inducing over edited short attention span advertising. I can't watch them, I get a headache just thinking about them.

[Nay]

15. Most fish don't study, or even notice, the water they are swimming in. Most people

are the same way. Any woman can tell you that she has been objectified many, many times in her lifetime, but BECAUSE SHE IS AN OBJECT TO MOST MEN, AND MEN DEFINE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING, her observations are null and void. Only recently have women had any say in what goes on, and now we have to fight objectification on steroids, i.e., advertising. I'm 60 years old, and I have to say that I'm tired as hell, too. Just tired. Tired of men, tired of society, tired of the treadmill. I find that I'm opting out of a whole lot of shit that I just don't care about anymore.

[MadrasT]

17. I am tired too Nay.

I am almost 50 and I have tried explaining to my BF how horribly exhausting it is. And it gets exhausting trying to get him to comprehend what it feels like to be an objectified female-bodied person. He "gets it" intellectually (in that he understands that it is so) but I don't see how he will ever "get it" on the gut level the way we experience it.

[redqueen]

18. Considering the backsliding that's taken place since the 80's, I can only imagine.

I think this is at the root of so much.

[patrice]

20. Nailed it! It's called "habituation" and it's built into our neverous/sensory/perceptual apparati.

TIRED! Me too! And being 60 years old, Nay, you'll get this: I was raised by children of immigrants, who taught me VERY early that tired was NOT an option, so saying I'm tired is not something I do easily . . .

been putting it off for a very long time, but I can't avoid it anymore, I'm fucking TIRED of it all and most especially ALL of the god damned BS that gets LOTS of people HURT. I know I'm not supposed to swear, but I'm going to anyway, God Damn Bullshit!!!

Sorry for the profanity, sisters . . .

FED UP, here!!!

[seabeyond]

40. taught me VERY early that tired was NOT an option, so saying I'm tired is not something I do easily

" god damned BS that gets LOTS of people HURT."

my hubby is nonconfrontational. not allowed in the house he grew up in. was all my family was. with bushco in the early 2000, my hubby said enough. i dont want to hear this shit. our kids were like around 2, and 4. i looked at him and said, as a mother, i look at our kids, and see their future and there will never be a time i say "enough". this is not about me. it is not fun always being aware. i dont want to do it. but, i am a parent, and this is my job.

he totally changed his perspective.

edit to add. you have a post above i really want to get into. but, is going to take some time, and i have things to do right now. will get back to it. good stuff.

[seabeyond]

39. up until the tired part.... i love your post. at the tired part, i get it.

thanks... hear ya.

[seabeyond]

22. the thing about it is, like you have posted, we are a zillion times worse today than the past

Last edited Fri May 18, 2012, 10:41 AM - Edit history (1)

it is like the show you have an OP about. bring porn into our every day lives to normalize in society. it is all a matter of conditioning...

i cant believe all these people who are independently nature in thought and expression, readily say.... condition me society, condition me to not be my authentic self.

they are not only doing it willingly, but defending the right and proud of the conditioning aligning it with biology. society isnt conditioing me, how we are made, biology, though all facts and common sense says otherwise. it makes no sense to me. my 17 yr old was talking about a behavior with his friends. being grounded and pragmatic, insightful, he didnt get how they could wrap their mind around the behavior and not see the hypocrisy of the behavior. it didnt "feel" true to him. it reminded me that i had been that way growing up. i couldnt jump into much of the kid behavior cause my mind could not shift, adjust, allow the dictating behavior demanded. it didnt make sense to me then, either.

[redqueen]

45. It makes sense if you think about the desire to be part of the group.

It's just a human need, to be accepted. When these messages about sexuality permeate media aimed at young people, its very easy to see how it's all gone so wrong. Compare Snow White to Ariel and other more recent characters. Compare women in pop and rock from 30 years ago to today.

Children are the targets for these messages. Adults are too often providing no filter at all. I let my kids watch, but we talk about these messages.

[seabeyond]

50. i let kids watch some and not watch a lot. no stupid, angry or johnny bravo

blatant sexism.

we would discuss this. they would get it. we would discuss the conditioning of cereal ads. the youngest just had to have a cereal cause ad said tasted good. i told him he wouldnt like it. but, he knew he would cause the tv said so. i let him buy. he didnt like and was heartbroken he was lied to. he was like, 4. and we had our conversation. i have always discussed with kids like adults, but age appropriate. a fun way to raise kids.

and yes... so much watching anything, that we could chat about.

they didnt do the disney teenage stuff either. i told them, they give you these kids, the kids are rude and disrespectful because after all they are in battle with parent. rebelling. no teenager gets along with parent. that is conditioning bullshit. a teenager does not have to go thru those years battling the parent. they are teaching kids this. it is much easier having mutual respect, communication and TRUST. lol. you will have so much more freedom if i TRUST you. something every kid wants.

[MerryBlooms]

52. On this site? Years from now.

You have a safe haven group, sanctioned and approved by admins, whose host doesn't believe objectivity of women exists and it's made up.

I have a love/hate relationship with this site.