The Failed Prostitution Experiment

[redqueen]

...

Neither legalization nor decriminalization cures the inherent gender inequality that arises when a buyer purchases the body of a woman or girl. Stella Marr, a survivor of prostitution and founder of Sex Trafficking Survivors United, emphasizes that stigma originates on the demand side "from the buyers who use their political and financial power to buy the younger, poorer, disadvantaged and more vulnerable. The secrecy demanded by these buyers to conceal the harm they cause creates an especially devastating form of stigma: a suffocating silence enforced by fear and shame."

When governments fail to tackle the demand side of the commercial sex industry, they not only fail to protect people in prostitution, they also financially benefit through the increased tax income generated from the exploitation of people.

But they are not the only ones to benefit. By bringing the commercial sex industry "above ground," traffickers, pimps, brothel owners and sex buyers all profit in this billion-dollar business.

In an effort to prioritize the human rights and safety of people in prostitution, Sweden, Norway and Iceland have adopted the Nordic Model, an approach that criminalizes the purchase of sex, decriminalizes the sale of sex and provides exit strategies for those who are being purchased.

...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lauren-hersh/failed-prostitution-experiment_b_3941883.html

emphasis mine



Many people use the line that activists working for progress on this issue 'wont listen to the people involved' but that's a shameless lie.

It's them who won't listen. Who refuse to listen. And on the off chance they do bother to listen, they dismiss those voices they'd rather not hear with some comforting lie.

http://www.equalitynow.org/survivorstories

[Benton D Struckcheon]

1. I tried to make this point a while back ....

... in some thread about prostitution around here, and got kicked around for being a prude, as I recall.
Hardly. I just have a thing about exploitation. The experience that I've read about far as legalizing prostitution fits with what this article said. The only place I'm not sure about re this is Nevada, where the brothels tend to be out in the boonies.

[redqueen]

3. Nevada's situation is just like any other place where it's legal.

It becomes a lucrative destination for traffickers, because many men who buy sex don't want to use a condom, don't want to restrict themselves to acts that the prostituted woman will allow, and many prefer underage girls. Where it's legal, demand rises.

[seabeyond]

4. demand rises, the only way to meet supply is sex slave, and police have a zillion times tougher

getting at the "illegal" with legal protecting and hiding the illegal.

[redqueen]

5. And with everyone from the privileged prostitutes who love renting their bodies

to the government agencies collecting the taxes cheering for legal rent-a-rape... it's going to be a long, long time before we see much progress in this country.

There are billions of dollars at stake and people can come up with a hell of a lot of justifications when there's so much money on the line.

[duffyduff]

9. Nevada prostitutes, by the way, aren't "privileged."

That is a lie promoted by the media.

Their lives are little better than those who work the streets.

[seabeyond]

12. I have read where they are out in the middle of nowhere held I. Prison like conditions.

I have looked for the articles in the past and haven't found them. It was not a positive report.

[redqueen]

16. The only ones I consider privileged

are the ones lucky enough that through whatever circumstances, they can somehow manage to find that line of 'work' enjoyable.

[duffyduff]

8. Prostitutes in Nevada's legal brothels are treated like absolute shit

Don't kid yourself they are happy with their lot. They basically are imprisoned in those places three weeks out of the month.

The biggest lie is the notion prostitution is a "victimless crime." I blame the television talk shows from the 1970s and 1980s glamorizing a human rights violation.

[ZombieHorde]

2. In my opinion,

the best way to address prostitution in the US is to dramatically increase social/outreach programs. I think prostitution would be decreased, but not eliminated, through motherhood endowments, single payer universities, etc.

[ismnotwasm]

6. Part of the problem is gender

Women are prostitutes, or higher end "call girls"--I guess. Males can be "escorts" but less just call them all sexworkers.

My anecdotal experience with male street sex-workers is much the same as females and the similarity continues with both being procured for men.

And therein lies the rub, as long as women's sexuality is ignored, objectified, degraded, used with out permission for some kind of sales pitch (another form of prostitution) as long as the Gay community or the cis majority for that matter-fails false societal imposed standards of "masculinity" or "femininity"; in fact until we stay out of the Gay communities bedrooms and business; as long pornography dulls our sexual senses until it takes the macabre and the violent rather than the erotic and sensual to arouse us; as long as male sexual privilege is ignored and denied; as long as sex is described in terms such as "dirty" or "nasty"-meaning we haven't evolved sexually; as long as coercion, emotional, physical OR economic for prostitution exists..

And so on...

And Until prostitutes ARE fully trained sex workers, catering to sexualities and genders without gendered division, without harm, without despair and with loving grace..

Legalized prostitution will always be a failure.

[duffyduff]

10. They are NOT "sex workers"--they are prostitutes

Treating the selling of sex like any other work hides the true horror of the "profession."

It is a human rights violation of one of the worst kind.

[ismnotwasm]

25. My post was meant to be gently ironic

Since NONE of those conditions are met or will be met anytime soon.

That being said, I don't care what people want to call themselves, and their are a number of women in the sex industry who do refer to themselves as "sexworkers" it doesn't change the essential facts of prostitution.

[GeoWilliam750]

7. Whilst one can make an argument about a transaction between two consenting adults

And I strongly suspect that there are at least a few instances where this is the case, the power disparity in the transaction is almost always very large.

By far the greater issue is the income and opportunity disparity that drives people to seek or accept or submit to whatever demeaning use of their life if offered, and to hand over their dignity for a piece of bread.

It always comes back to the same thing in that there is a percentage of the population that preys upon and extracts from the rest of the population simply because they can - and because the rest of us allow it.

[duffyduff]

11. "Consent" is a LIE because women are forced into it due to economic circumstances

Who in the HELL would "choose" to be used as a human toilet six or seven days a week "servicing" as many as 6 to 10 different men a day?

[BainsBane]

17. Just thought I'd add to your post by pointing out that using women as a toilet

Is a fetish thing. Funny that some ardent observers and ridiculers of anyone who disagrees with them, individuals known to be into BDSM, feign ignorance of this--anything to make feminists look bad.

I also find it interesting that some see male sexuality and commodified capitalist culture as one. It would seem they think that throughout the history of mankind, thousands of years before the advent of internet and print porn, that men had no sexuality. I wonder how they think the human species managed to propagate itself without porn? I guess that's a secret known only to the educated and well-adjusted.

[seabeyond]

18. ya, i googled. another popular so called fetish, peeing in a woman. who would have thunk....

a couple weeks ago i learned another FAV of men is sticking dick in ass then a womans mouth. really gets a man off. cause it is any more stimulation? nah. simply for degrading a woman and literally making her eat shit.

so ya, learned something else i really did not need to know. all in consent, right dudes. fuck the degradation of women, it is a fuckin turn on.

[BainsBane]

20. We're supposed to understand that ANY expression of male sexuality is natural

Even if it's the product of capitalist commodity fetishism, if it's violent, or if the girls are underage. And they claim WE hate men?

[seabeyond]

21. And they claim WE hate men? how much do you have to hate women to want them to eat shit

a world gone mad. but we are suppose to keep our fuckin mouth shut, except to eat shit, and not call it out cause.... we are being fuckin extreme? really?

it is a hoot

[seabeyond]

22. btw... i believe it was their porn world that coined calling women fucktoilets.

not saying men were treating women LIKE...

but actually call women fucktoilets. and since it is these very men that proudly proclaim the LUVIN"s of the pron, i would assume they already know that it is the men in the porn industry that call women fucktoilets, instead of playing ANOTHER damn game.

[BainsBane]

23. When one can't keep up

with the "uneducated and maladjusted," games are all that's left.

[seabeyond]

24. ha. lol. i am off to test drive an '89, stick, 150 for my son. ok,

he is test driving, but i get to play too.

have a good day, you hysterical woman, you

[seabeyond]

19. amazing. they can be all into it. have it in their porn. lots of google sites gigglin about doing

it to a woman yet be offended when it is said out loud. truly amazing.

[DonCoquixote]

26. there is the rub

If we talk about the EU, where insurance is free,education is free, and people do not need to sell themselves, then we can talk about whether a person of any gender needs or wants to sell their sex. In America, that won't apply.

That being said, there are many 9 to 5 jobs that, for some people, can be a hell of a lot worse than the sex trade. For those that CONSENT, repeat CONSENT to that, more power to them. I have more respect for those that sell their sex directly than those who sell the illusion, be they Madonna or Justin Timberlake.

[BainsBane]

27. No job is worse than being enslaved

All sex workers are not willing. Some are trafficked and forced to sell sex for the financial benefit of their owners. Prostitution and slavery/human trafficking are linked together. That is not to say, of course, that all sex workers are enslaved, but the industry attracts it, even where prostitution is legal. That is the point of the OP.

[seabeyond]

28. yes. in the european nations where prostitution is legalized there are not enough women wanting to

sell their body to meet the demand. not even close. not kinda. hence the escalation of the need to import the sex slaves both children and women. sex slaves. to meet the demand.

hence, european countries now prosecuting the pimp and john and not going after the prostitute

[redqueen]

29. There are more slaves now than ever before. Most of them sex slaves.

As has been pointed out, this is because even where its legal, if there are other opportunities, women for some reason mostly don't want those jobs.

Imagine that. Women would rather bot be treated like masturbation accessories. Go figure.

[seabeyond]

30. and then of course there are the women that "choose" to support drug habit or

desperation or any other number of reasons that have nothing to do with just being really really horney.

[redqueen]

31. Addiction is a huge problem.

Sometimes prostitution is a way to fuel an addiction. Sometimes the addiction is acquired in the effort to numb oneself in order to do such 'work'. Either way, when it's involved, it makes it that much harder for those women (and young men) to escape. And the vast majority do want to escape the life.

[seabeyond]

32. yes. but isnt it so much more comforting to sit in our world and turn a blind eye.

they chose.

[DonCoquixote]

33. But that is the blame of the EU

Because they are actively breakign their own laws by importing sex slaves, taking advantage of their poverty, as opposed to some modern day french Demimonde who just wants to freely use her sex for what she wants.

In other words, the EU is willing to exploit asians and africans and put up the kind face to it's whites.

[redqueen]

34. It's the EU's fault that most German and Dutch women would rather not rent their bodies out

to be used by some of the worst examples of humanity?

It's the EU's fault that ever rising demand in such places results in desperate women from economically disadvantaged countries being tricked into fulfilling this demand, and often trapped in such 'jobs' once they arrive at their destination?

No. No it isn't. The ones to blame are the people who see nothing wrong with renting someone's body to use as a masturbation aid.

The 'demimondes' you speak of are few and far between, and I won't prioritize their desires over the lives of other women. Ever.

[DonCoquixote]

36. If they cannot stop their men and others

from importing people in as slaves, then hell yes it is their fault, it is their job to stop the smuggling. If women are being forced into it, for any reason, then it is the state's job to grab those using the force and jail them,period.

As far as demand goes, if the willing women decide to charge a million dollars a service, let them charge it. The fact that the EU does not penalize a woman, or call her a slut, because she sells directly what the Justin Timberlake and Madonnas sell, is better, because it focuses on the fact that a woman's sex is hers, not the church, not the state. Would you rather have the American or Islamic models where prostitution is banned, but sex becomes a sort of all pervasive obsession that influences every little nuance, where even politics gets controlled by it?

And yes, I mean this both ways. When the day comes that a female executive can enjoy the services of a male or female "demimonde" just as much as her counterparts, we will be better off. No, that is not humor, after all, why should she be considered evil for doing what males have done for years?

Better a brothel than a dozen churches! Especially if you regulate it and tax it! Note, i say regulate because, as was pointed out, when only reno allows it, it allows for abuse, but when it is normalized, the chances for abuse lessen.

However, the best choice is to reduce the demand, and a society where sex is free and not punished is the best remedy for that.

[BainsBane]

37. Where is sex punished?

And what do you mean by "free"?

[DonCoquixote]

39. sex punished

by people who think that a woman OR man that sells their OWN sexuality is somehow evil. I have much more respect for the streetwalkers than many Lawyers.

As far as free, sex should not be demonized, especially as the shame around sex is one of the reasons the trade is so big in the first place.

[redqueen]

41. No, it has nothing to do with shame. That's a comforting lie.

It's entitlement. It's a desire to dominate, humiliate, and abuse.

[BainsBane]

43. That isn't the discussion here

The discussion is the circumstances that prompts women and boys to sell their bodies, whether enslavement or economic circumstances that devalue labor, and a woman's labor in particular.

You also overlook the fact that men seek out very young prostitutes who will never willingly sell their labor. Boys and girls are trafficked to satisfy the sexual proclivities for children, teens, and even infants. That is by no means a small number.

If shame were the key factor, the most morally conservative countries would have the highest rates of prostitution, when in fact it is the opposite.

[redqueen]

40. NOBODY can stop it.

The ONLY WAY that has been found to successfully reduce trafficking in human beings is to make it ILLEGAL to buy sex.

This prostitution experimentation has failed. Making it legal only reinforces the idea that men have a right to buy sex, and anyplace that has been tried, demand rises, and abuses increase.

It's like drugs, only instead of drugs being abused, its HUMAN BEINGS.

Have you somehow missed the Nordic model? I see you went right to the religious, right wing rationale for banning the sale of sex. Why? That's just the flip side of the (failed) liberal view of prostitution.

The countries with the highest levels of equality between the sexes are moving forward on this issue. It is a fucking slap in the face how desperately other liberal people are fighting that same progress.

[DonCoquixote]

44. Nobody can stop it

indeed, the countries that made it illegal are not doing well at stopping it, least of all us. The Nordic Model may have flaws, but would I rather drive people into the shadows where they can get infected with AIDS?

I myself would not use their services, indeed, part of the shame there is the fact that they who pay for it do so because they cannot get it otherwise. However, the laws against sex workers do NOT fall on the pimps, nor on the johns, as hard as they fall on the workers. Yes, it is like drugs, and with all due respect, the drug war does abuse human beings, a lot.

[redqueen]

45. "... the drug war does abuse human beings, a lot"

With all due respect, the view demonstrated by that comment simply cements my decision to cease engaging with you on this topic.

[seabeyond]

46. you get The Nordic Model goes afters pimps and johns and leaves the prostitute alone. they even

offer her services if she wants them. they put the pimps and johns in jail. you get, they are attacking the selling and demand while protecting the women.

you get that, right?

and that is what europe has found to be the most successful in both going after traffic and protecting prostitutes.

not blanket legalization. they found that to be a failure.

[DonCoquixote]

48. Ok,let me clear things up

I said regulate, which is nice legalese for "make the people who would profit from this jump through flaming hoops and tax them until they turn paler than a corpse."

However, how do you avoid treating the prostitute as if they were a criminal? I know what the offical words is, but how do you avoid attacking/demonizing the sell-ee?

[seabeyond]

49. generally, the sellee is behind the curtain and is a man. but if you are selling another persons

body to be used, or you are buying that body, you get arrested. if it is your body being sold, you are offered help.

that simple. they have found a significant decrease in prostitution.

legalized, they had too many traffickers hiding behind the supposed legal, making it damn near inpossible for the police to get after those trafficking others. so though you would like to blame govts or countries, it was not a lack of will on their part. it was trying to get past the legal, to the illegal. they are finding success at not allowing the demand, to decrease the sex slavery and the demand for it.

it is basic. it is simple. and the only one that looses is the man buying a body to use.

[redqueen]

35. And no, it isn't "the EU breaking its own laws" - it's PIMPS.

And many of the trafficked women are from the Ukraine and other Eastern European countries.

"The EU" isn't exploiting these women (and children) - SEX BUYERS ARE.

[DonCoquixote]

38. Well, even if they came from the Ukraine

Someone in France or England is playing along, and said people need to be jailed, shamed, and outright considered traitors to their respective countries. If the EU does not stop them, it is their fault. Think of Drugs. Are the people in Mexico to blame for the fact we yanks like our cocaine?, no, it is people whoa re in America that are encouraging the imports, discourage the folks who buy, you solve it, you jail the dealers, and well, we all know about our jail system, which deserves not it's own rant, but frankly it's own GROUP at DU.

In short, if the EU wanted to stop the imports, they could, they won't, and it helps that they have a culture used to exploiting women of former colonies, just ask Dominique Strauss Kahn.

[redqueen]

42. You're obviously deeply committed to your view that should be legal to buy sex.

So deeply that you're willing to ignore the fact that only ONE system has been shown to reduce the abuse and murder of women and children.

I'm done with this.

[seabeyond]

47. yup. evenmen that are appalled at the thought of using a woman in this manner, still defend. bro

code.

same with strippin. they do not like going, they do not go, they find it insulting, but stilll... will defend.

privilege, entitlement. being a man.

[DonCoquixote]

50. actually

I believe what I do because I have seen too many times where all these laws against the sex trade tend to do little but keep the prostitutes in jail. However, if they are serious about NOT demonizing or criminalizing the "body" as you put it, then i can support it, I just wonder if they MEAN that.

As far as strip clubs go, I have no problem with the women that keep Chippendales in business; it is their right.

[duffyduff]

13. Demand side is the only way to reduce or stop it.

I'd go further and print all of their names in the local media and shame them.

[seabeyond]

14. Where was it I read they were doing that? Another progressive "sex positive" European country?

I agree with your post all down this thread.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

15. Demand side is it, agree.