How are you dealing......

[boston bean]

Over the weekend, I have made many attempts and pleas to not only admin, but members of this site to try to get them to see what a terrible policy this was...... putting womens rights up for debate. I've been supported, I've been snarled at, I've been personally attacked, I've had my words twisted. I'm sure you can all relate.

This morning, my post in ATA had a response. The response was completely lacking any context to the more important of my two questions. I was hoping for some support, some reconsideration, what I got was nada. It wasn't important enough to even bother writing a response to, I guess. To be clear, I wasn't asking for a banning of a long term poster, I was looking for admin to make it known that anti choice commentary wasn't welcome here (hell maybe put it in the TOS??). I was looking for some top down leadership protecting womens rights in this little corner of the web. I am sorry to report that was too much to ask. Instead in another ATA thread the answer remained the same, as it was in the first response that brought about this issue. You can go out to ATA to read. I'm not linking them here.

The clear message as far as I can tell is that posters can post anti choice opinions on DU. Juries can maybe hide the post, admin might or might not decide to take any action.

Anti choice obviously does not rise to the level of racist comments, or anti gay marriage comments here on DU.... I truly believe admin does not see the similarity. Womens rights are not as important?? I don't know the exact reason for this. Whether it is cluelessness or if it is something more I don't know. After all these years, I want to believe cluelessness. If it is cluelessness, the response/non response to a respectful question in ATA was extremely disappointing. I don't understand the motivation for it. I found it to be rude and responded in kind.

So, how are you dealing with this information? I feel like I've been hit over the head with a bunch of bricks. I'm confused by this, I'm in almost a state of denial that the above is the case..... It feels like I've been shocked and I'm not quite ready to raise the white flag.... is it futile?

I would hope a jury would let me have this say with my sisters here in this group, looking for some support.

[boston bean]

2. I know how you are feeling.

I'm not one to give up easily, but damn, this is taking a toll.

[boston bean]

6. I hope you begin to feel better soon!

Take care of yourself? I'll miss you!

[boston bean]

9. no, they take things twist them to suit their pov.

it's a common tactic. On those ones, I just ignore.

[BainsBane]

11. What justification

Did the alerter and jurors give for that hide?

[LiberalLoner]

14. Here is the message I received:

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: One of your posts has been hidden by a DU Jury

At Mon Nov 4, 2013, 10:34 AM, an alert was sent on the following post:

This. Society is fed up with us women and the war on women will intensify to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3975755

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Skull fuck her????? There is no place on DU for this. If a man had said this, it would be deleted in a heartbeat, but not before every feminist on here blasted if off the board, including me. Please hide as this makes DU suck. If that's not good enough, hide for saying our lives will be as bad as the Taliban women. I don't work for our rights to hear shit like that.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Nov 4, 2013, 11:03 AM, and voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree that the comment was over the top. I disagree vehemently with the alerter's second sentence, which was wholly unnecessary to the alert itself. Please keep it on topic, without adding your feelings on the issue. It's an easy hide to make without the editorial. That is what makes DU suck. Blanket statements about anything. While I'm voting to hide the post for being over the top, I would also vote to hide the alerter's second sentence if it ever finds its way into a thread--it in no way influenced my vote, outside of making me think the alerter is more than a bit disingenuous.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: First this is a very ignorant post. It paints a broad slice of population as animals based on actions of a few--after a lot of hyperbole. Ordinarily I would have voted to leave stupid posts such as this alone but the skull fuck throws this one over. The poster seems, based on this post, to be an angry individual. I hope she/he can take a step back and find some peace.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Grow a thicker skin. I have seen worse said about gun owners on DU. And guess what, a jury of YOUR peers allowed it. If you don't like what is being said then argue, ignore, or trash.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: agree with alerter and may I add as the Mother of 3 adult daughters I do not see the future as quite that grim
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Hyperbole isn't against the terms of service. If you disagree with her, argue with her.

CONSEQUENCES OF THIS DECISION

You will no longer be able to participate in this discussion thread, and you will not be able to start a new discussion thread in this forum until 12:03 PM. This hidden post has been added to your <a href="/?com=profile&uid=250455&sub=trans">Transparency page</a>.

[BainsBane]

15. Once again the problem is not misogyny

But drawing attention to it. That is outrageous.

[seabeyond]

27. exactly. and i know who alerted. she has been on quite a tear with feminists the last few days

but your point is right on. allow the garbage, but women, dare not call it garbage. you will offend. and offending while calling out the offensive, is.... offensive, dontcha know

[BainsBane]

34. I find it sad

That some who consider themselves feminists devote so much energy to disputes with other feminists. Certainly well-intention people can disagree on ideas and tactics, but singling other feminists out as enemies only reinforces patriarchy.

[seabeyond]

37. steinam explains the best.

Because all these situations have made me wonder why is there no sense of female sisterhood, no sense of women speaking up for other women? Where is all the conflict and contention coming from? Recently, in an interview with the Observer, Gloria Steinem explained her thoughts on why people so often complain that groups of women can be catty, “do women compete for the favors of men? Yes. They’ve spent 5,000 years competing. It is true of any subordinated group. But once you get a sense of possibilities and shared experience, it becomes the most powerful community. I see a form of it when I travel. I’ll be walking through an airport, say, and my plane will be four hours late, and a woman cleaner will say: ‘Here, take these magazines I’ve collected’, or: ‘When I’m tired, I sleep in the closet over there. Would you like to use it?’ It’s the same with the flight attendants. It’s a floating community.”

So it seems that women, just as other oppressed groups, often perpetuate the same prejudicial thoughts or behavior that they’ve experienced in a way to separate themselves from the oppressed group and be accepted as part of the positive majority. Competition is formed in order to be ingratiated to those in positions of power or those seen as possessing positive characteristics. And yet, Steinem explains, when an opportunity is created for the sharing of experiences, a sense of community emerges. A sense of sisterhood, if you will.

I admit, I’ve had my own problems with the notion of sisterhood. It always seemed like this sense of camaraderie between women was based upon some opposition to men (granted that was probably a very ill conceived notion of sisterhood but it’s the one I understood). But in thinking about it now this sense of sisterhood is important in that it should lead us to a greater sense of community, which in turn leads us to a better understanding of the oneness of humanity as a whole. It might just be a first step. If women can see other women as more than just these characteristics assigned to them by culture and tradition then we can use this same outlook towards men.

*
But in response to this pattern of behavior, of underestimating and insulting women, so endemic to our culture and perpetuated by both men and women, and by social structures and institutions, lets promote this idea of sisterhood (men can promote it too!). Let’s promote this idea that groups of women as well as individual women aren’t dramatic, catty, manipulative gossips. They are human beings endowed with the capacity to love, reason, understand, acquire knowledge and serve their community. Let’s move beyond stereotypical tropes that have been perpetuated and supported by years of subjugation, lets question cultural norms of thought and behavior, and let’s support each other in the process, as we move towards an understanding of the oneness of humanity.

http://engenderingequality.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/sisterhood/

[boston bean]

36. I gotta disagree with the alerter. If a man had said it,

the response would be "free speech" "prude" "get the fainting couch" "where are the smelling salts" "hysterical".

It would more than likely been left to stand. That is my experience.

Like me getting a post hidden for writing "b*tch" to describe how someone may feel about me, not calling anyone else one.

and the juries fall for it over and over and over and over....and hide my post, not ones that are actually calling women "b*tches".

[seabeyond]

38. yes. but, i have to ask, when it is so clear the hides we receive by other duers on the board,

why is it not clear to administration.

i can go thru hide after hide after hide that would be clear signals to administration there is a problem. and i am simply told if i was civil, i would not get hides, when clearly there is more at play. i expect those above to actually take the time to identify a problem. i know i do, when i have a job of responsibility to people counting on me.

[NuclearDem]

4. Women's issues are put to the forefront when it benefits the Party

But when it comes time for "serious negotiations" or when someone in the Party isn't standing up strongly for those rights, women are told to sit down and let the "adults" do the talking.

It's not portrayed as rights for 50% of the public, but a wedge issue.

[seabeyond]

28. you are right on nuclear and our board reflects this. nt

[Whisp]

8. I am not surprised at all.

This is how things roll, all over, and so even here.

As you said there would be NO FUCKING WAY a post as derogatory towards gay rights and AA rights or anyone else's rights would be taken as lightly, and almost mocked, ffs.

[ismnotwasm]

12. I requested clarification in ATA and got it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12593918

My immediate reaction is to leave and have nothing whatsoever to do DemocraticUnderground. However looking at threads on choice I see the overwhelming response does support choice. The ones I've identified as anti-choice are either known misogynists, wing nuts and/or trolls.

It's funny, after serving on MIRT, I was going to increase my participation, and now, sadly it's seems I'll be decreasing it to extinction, even though I have already limited most of the time I spend here in HoF. On the other hand, I'm pretty goddamn motherfucking pissed off, and I tend to be reactionary when I get mad. So I'm still on the cusp.

What's most distressing is this is happening during unpresidented assaults on women's right to choose, this is not a liberal position or a Democratic one, and I don't see why it's allowed. But allowed it is.

[boston bean]

13. We've had each womens group on DU ask him to amend TOS to include

sexism and misogyny. He has resisted that. Never in a million years would I have guessed it might be because anti choice sentiments might be curtailed.... the denial of rights to women is a cornerstone, a fundamental right that women have fought for. To see that it could be up for debate here in any manner, with no real discussion or attempt of understanding how this policy hurts women here, is truly, beyond my belief.

[ismnotwasm]

18. I don't understand it either

It's not a valid position for any Liberal to hold or Democrat either, as it promotes body slavery. I'm very upset and sickened

But more than that I'm pissed off, and that anger might keep me here, not to cause trouble so much as to speak the truth. I hate woo woo unscientific bullshit like anti-choice positions

[BainsBane]

19. I actually have a cynical view of why some

Who otherwise oppose women's rights are pro-choice: it makes it easier for them to free themselves of the consequences of sex. It is the easiest of women's rights for many to support. That is why it is so shocking when a few can't even manage that.

[ismnotwasm]

22. That's actually true, not cynical

You know I'm reading a genre of horror called " Splatterspunk" it goes over the top with extreme pornographic imagery, misogyny, misandry, southern bashing, liberal 'elite' bashing etc

What I find compelling about it, and what I'm sure is not the authors intent, is aside from the satanic crap, it paints misogyny accurately, kind of if all the brakes were off.

[ismnotwasm]

46. Exactly

No one punch pulled, not one bullshit apologist excuse, pure unadulterated misogyny

[BainsBane]

16. I have seen very few anti-choice comments on DU

Or rather I had seen few before this recent string of threads. Now some are claiming choice extends to forcing women against their will to carry babies to term. None are so flexible when it comes to violating the basic human rights of men.

[ismnotwasm]

20. Like forced vasectomies

When men have a certain number of progeny and don't support them.

[BainsBane]

21. I raised that with one

He didn't answer.

[boston bean]

25. it's simple, imho BainsBaine

Anti choice comments don't belong here. Women should not have to debate them at ALL. Admin should respect this right of women to control their body. Their policy does not provide this respect. As they leave the door open for it to be debated. The one thread, the poster infrequently, frequently posted about probably had about 70 posts stating her pov. Including calling pro choice women murderers.

The women of this website don't deserve the same rights as all other groups whose rights are under attack?

I say they are. This is fundamental, this is non negotiable for me. The door opened up even a crack regarding this issue is an attack on women. But you get pat answers like a jury can handle if it's bad, we might ban them, but it's not a bannable offense.

Really? Why are the rights of women so damn negotiable for this web site, when most women here are appalled by anti choicers?

Is it for the clicks? Are womens rights being used to make a few bucks on ads for increased traffic?

I want "anti choice sentiments are a bannable offense and not tolerated on DU" added to the TOS this day forward. No one has to do anything about long time posters who posted this shit prior to the new TOS. Why should DU be melded to include such repulsive views, that put women under attack? I think the TOS. Put the anti choice members on notice their attempts to limit womens choice is NOT and WILL NOT be welcome here from this day forward. Seems simple enough to me!

[seabeyond]

33. i remember one conversation he said he had women saying the sexist bulshit on du was not sexist.

when you have a group of women continually reinforcing the anti feminism on du, it allows one to excuse the sexism. personally, i think that is really what it is about. i think that he can, with a clear conscious, say that he does have a board the does not have sexism, cause when the sexism is called up, you have the same women, attacking the women speaking out.

kinda like repugs can say the are not racist cause they have pizza guy or not sexist cause they have women.

[BainsBane]

39. To me they are no different from male misogynists

Biology does not determine one's political consciousness. There are men who are strong advocates for women's rights, along with all human rights, and women who oppose them. While I am sometimes puzzled by female misogynists, I see them as the same ideologically and politically as the men who resent women in that they sanction the same denial of rights and respect.

[seabeyond]

29. as someone said. it is across the board. a backlash. google feminist should be.... killed,

murdered, shot.

so, do we be quiet, or the complete opposite? we are all getting posts hidden right and left calling out the trash.

[seabeyond]

30. love you too woman, and will miss you. hope to see you back. if we are here, lol. nt

[ismnotwasm]

48. ...

I made a daily Kos account a while back, haven't done much with it

[seabeyond]

31. over the last couple years, what i see, as a poster said, is we are merely tolerated.

not valued. or appreciated, simply tolerated. over the last couple years and the few times we have received comment from skinner in ATA, it is ignoring the obvious, or snark. right now, i am seeing a big push on du to put us in our place. i am not sure what caused it. lots of hides, lots of alerts.

i do not know BB.

[Squinch]

32. There are a lot of comments about the fact that feminists are not welcomed here.

Of course that is true, but this goes much further than that.

This is a discussion about a fundamental human right. This is about the rights to self determination, the right to sovereignty over one's own body, for half the population. This is much larger even than feminism.

This is about the administrators of this site being willing to allow posts that advocate the removal of one of the most basic civil rights from 51% of the population.

As pitbullgirl pointed out, this is as bad as if Skinner had said that people can post their racist musings as long as they are polite about it. It is that disrespectful.

The administrators won't answer this questions: why are they willing to tolerate posts that challenge the legitimacy of women's civil rights, but they are not willing to tolerate posts that challenge the legitimacy of civil rights of minorities or gay people? What is the difference in their minds?

I suspect they won't answer those questions because there is only one answer possible: they think the rights of gays and minorities are important. They think the rights of women are not.

There is no other possible conclusion.

Boston bean, as you said in your post: Skinner is wrong. He is wrong today, he will be wrong tomorrow, he will never be right as long as he defends the basic civil rights of some groups but not others. And he is also dead wrong if he thinks he even comes close to being politically progressive when he allows posts that characterize the right to reproductive self determination, a fundamental part of the Democratic Party platform, as "murder" or "homicide."

Just as I would never support or participate in an organization that was disrespectful to the rights of minorities and gay people, I will no longer support DU, because of its blatant and unapologetic disrespect for the rights of some people to decide how their own bodies, and their lives, are to be used.

[redqueen]

41. BOOM

I wish I could say that any of this shit surprises me.

What I can say is it will get worse before it gets better, and if we can keep our sense of humor intact, comfort each other, educate each other, and support each other, we will make our own and each others' lives so much easier.

[seabeyond]

35. btw, it does not matter for a feminist if it is on du, on the street, in the grocery store, at work,

when there is sexism/misogyny, it is our job to speak up and out. at this point, feminism is still allowed on du. feminism is part of the progressive movement. it is part of the democratic party. we belong. regardless if we are liked, we belong. and as long as skinner allows feminist on du, he and the jury system and others MUST allow us to speak out against any sexism/misogyny we see on this board.

cause it is who we are.

[LanternWaste]

40. Insert any form or racial or religious bigotry in the place of women's reproductive rights...

Choice is as fundamental to the Democratic platform as to be unequivocally spelled out in the platform itself...

Strongly and unequivocally support Roe v. Wade. (Sep 2012)
Invest in stem cell and other medical research. (Nov 2006)
Pursue embryonic stem cell research. (Jul 2004)
Support right to choose even if mother cannot pay. (Jul 2004)
Choice is a fundamental, constitutional right. (Aug 2000).


Deny reproductive rights, deny the party platform. Deny the platform, and you're one step closer towards denial of the Democratic Party.

The two threads I read over the weekend were depressing. Not that I didn't know there are people like that... they're all over the place. But I honestly didn't think there were any on DU who opposed not merely choice for themselves, but to deny choice to any and all they can get away with.


And has been said; insert any form or racial or religious bigotry in the place of women's reproductive rights, and the poster would be tombstoned with no questions asked. It should happen in this instance too, and I'm beginning to question whether DU has become too watered down for its own good.

[seabeyond]

42. your post makes me want to ask... why? with women. why is it always with women.???? why?

excellent post and you do not have to struggle to answer. but, you post made me want to say that.

[boston bean]

43. we have a 38 post poster out in GD right now, playing cutesie

with anti choice.

It's so obvious...

[seabeyond]

45. the green light. that is what administration so conveniently are ignoring that is our reality.

we have seen it in just the last couple days.

[Whisp]

58. Skinner put the crack in the dam,

now the flood will come.

Maybe forced transvaginal probes will be officially DU accepted soon too.

[seabeyond]

59. i have certainly seen what is acceptable and not in the last couple days in du, with us discussing.

i have seen a greater attack on feminists also.

i think it is already heard, across the board.

[boston bean]

61. You just made me lol!

[seabeyond]

66. oh... must of missed that one. ya. trolling and our guys. ya. nt

[seabeyond]

63. yup. admittedly he says, the majority of women are in a horrible position, BUT... what about the

horney women that really like getting of with strange, old, ugly ass men.

ya.

[boston bean]

67. LL the thought has crossed my mind more than once.

[seabeyond]

70. oh and grown men buying schoolgirls soiled underwear from vending machines. lol, without humor. nt

[seabeyond]

69. ya. i saw it on the stupid ass giesha thread. they though redq and i had a problem with thread.

didnt give a shit about it. just didnt belong in video and i am a host in video. but wow, the regulars thought we had a problem with it and it was so fuckin funny the people that went into the thread to show support on how fuckin awesome a giesha thread was. people that really do not give a shit. was a fuckin stupid ass obvious game.

wow.... thank you for posting this OP. wow man. awesome.

rollin eyes.

the thing? noticed people with very very low post counts all of a sudden just focused on that thread.

we had it hear for a while and especially directed at my posts. until i was pointing out the time here and low count.

ya. socks.

[seabeyond]

64. i was all into the reply and didnt address your point. i stay OUT of prostitute threads. and lookie

i got smack into one. my bad. the thing. so much of it was so pathetic, that it was funny. then it got unfunny. and i am thinking wtf am i doing in a prostitute thread. my bad.

but, that is what i am talking about the different feel of the board the last couple days. absolutely

[LanternWaste]

53. Only temporarily, I hope

"The most rational thing to do, in my mind, is walk away. So that is what I will do..."


Only temporarily, I hope. Lookit, you guys are a Grade-A Education for a lot of people (myself included). I've done my share of stepping back from DU for a few weeks at a time before. Heck, about once a month I even go into a full tilt news blackout for a weekend. Good for the soul, I think.

But I'd hate to see those irrational little shits win this round and drive off another progressive for good. And maybe that's exactly what those kids want-- drive off anyone who forces us to look in the mirror so DU can be a gentler, kinder, less informative, less rational place made only to talk about politics rather than social issues.

No... they won't change their minds because they don't really believe this crap they preach-- they're doing it to goad you and Sea and Red and Itwasnt into either walking away or getting banned. Don't let the shitters win.




(And, if nothing else, I'd miss you, your perspective, and your posts. DU would be the Titanic without you guys here)

[seabeyond]

55. but he is right too. take a break. then come back strong. i did. it felt good. nt

[seabeyond]

47. i think what you will see is the better self in gd. post after post having heard the call

and reaching out in solidarity women. that is big.

or

i am just feeling incredibly good and optimistic. but i think not.

[Sheldon Cooper]

49. The only thing that is surprising to me is that this appears to be a news flash

to so many of you. I'm not beating my chest here, but for god sake - the anti-woman attitude on this site is (and has always been) as plain as the nose on your face, and I figured this out soon after I joined.

I am sorry to see so many of you deeply affected by this. I truly am sorry.

[boston bean]

50. Sheldon, I have felt it prior but with issue it is much more profound.

So in your face, no justification makes one lick of sense, there is no excuse you could use no matter how flimsy to justify. It is shocking.

[seabeyond]

51. oh, no one is suprised. but, we are speaking out loud and voicing how we feel. but no....

no surprise. we have only been spending two years of our time fighting for our voice.

[seabeyond]

56. nah... lol. i have invested too much time. and too many people appreciate/value what i say.

i do not see the battle as over.

i do not. not yet.

[ismnotwasm]

57. Ok Sea

If you, of all people who get as much shit as you do can hang, I can hang.

[seabeyond]

71. isnt it amazing ism. and i think

my about face had a lot to do with this thread, with you.... being pissed. pissed does all us good, sometimes.

[seabeyond]

73. they get close enough to just that in enough posts over the years. yes. that was a bummer for the

polls that show names. though interesting, it also stops people from honestly answering. i hear ya.

[seabeyond]

75. i was surprised. but, it was a given he was a returnee. i think we recently had a "oldman"

poster kicked off. probably him.

[Prophet 451]

76. I'd be pretty sure it's cluelessness

For a user of a forum like this, it's difficult to understand how the management can be isolated from what's actually going on. For many years, I worked for Beliefnet (the net's then biggest spirituality site) and while I bounced around under various job titles, one of the unofficial duties I ended up with was drawing staff attention to problems "on the ground". On any big site, the management is primarily dealing with teh big-picture running of teh site. They're dealing with ad revenues, demographics, traffic numbers. What teh sensible sites do is have people assigned to specific areas (say, every topic area) to monitor problems and report them to staff. Whether DU does that, I don't know.

EDIT: and I hadn't noticed which group this was from. I apologise for butting in and will withdraw.

[Deep13]

77. I'm on FB under the name "Marcus Junius Brutus" ...

...and would love to stay in touch with anyone who wants to abandon DU. I sometimes post on DU, but haven't taken it seriously since the 2008 primaries.

[Warpy]

78. Same old, same old

Women, who make up slightly more than half the human population, are not considered as worthy of males of the simple civil right to self determination.

It's always been this way on the left, movement men having a blind spot big enough to fit half the population of the planet into.

[hlthe2b]

79. I've just now seen both posts. I have no words...

Unbelievable and waaaay beyond frustrating, depressing, enraging...