This will probably go poorly in gd but I needed to say this

[Arcanetrance]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024096085

[NYC_SKP]

1. They need to hear it. Not that it will change their minds.

Apparently, if it's all consensual then there is nothing wrong.

By the same logic, if 95% of porn was fake snuff porn but everyone consented, then there's utterly nothing wrong with it.

We shouldn't have to explain this, it should be a commonly rejected idea that it's OK.

I wouldn't advocate for censorship of much of it, but would like to see outrage and push back because I don't really think that the market is asking for what the pornsters are providing and promoting.

And if the consumers ARE asking for that, then we are in deep shit.

[BainsBane]

28. consumers are asking for it

and that is indeed the problem.

[NYC_SKP]

29. that would be a challenging assertion to prove, BainsBane.

The accusation itself is an indictment against men, and ought not be taken lightly.

Not that consumers are representative, but don't you think that if you make that assertion without evidence, then you would be providing the producers cover?

That's a dangerous claim to make. It chastises consumers but gives cover to producers.

Do you want to do that>

Really?

[BainsBane]

30. Don't you think pornographers respond to consumer demand?

If people didn't view it, the pornographers would find something else to make.

[NYC_SKP]

31. I don't have a clue, and I dont know that they aren't motivated by their own perversity. nt.

[BainsBane]

32. It's a business like any other

supply and demand.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Not so simple. I think the supply is driving demand.

The dynamic is classic.

We wouldn't want SUVs without advertising making them look the must-have vehicle.

Then Detroit claims that they only provide them due to demand.

We know this.

[BainsBane]

34. true

but people wouldn't buy SUVs if they didn't want them. The same goes for rape porn. Certainly consumer reaction is the way to change the situation, but that requires getting them to care. As these DU threads reveal, they not only don't care, they consider it an intrinsic civil liberty not to care.

[NYC_SKP]

35. They want SUVs becaus the ads tell them that it's important, vital. Same for makeup and fashion, no

The economy revolves around these things.

Our Thanksgiving holiday is now completely devoted to buying ahead of time for Christmas gifts. Black Fridays now start on Thanksgiving day.

Go figure.

[LanternWaste]

40. What specifically leads you to this conclusion in this particular instance?

"I think the supply is driving demand..."

What specifically leads you to this conclusion in this particular instance?

[NYC_SKP]

41. Among all the different niche porn selections, if some are absent and others are way overrepresented

Then it stands to reason that visitors to these sites are going to see things they would otherwise not wanted to.

Worse, however, is that over time people might come to think that what is offered is representative of what the society enjoys and, thus, "normal".

When, of course, it's not.

Not any more than the food offered at a fried food all-you-can-eat place is normal or healthy.

[seabeyond]

42. this is really my hge problem with the way duers present this. normalizing. the effort put for

normalizing this crap to the point that not only is it ok, but we must respect it. we must not feel ick, we must no shame, we must not place any value judgment.

the normalizing of this garbage.

[NYC_SKP]

84. I agree. It's utterly beyond me how things got this way.

Sure, a little bit of impact from the demand side, but a whole lot of whacky decisions from the production supply side.

Every culture is different, though, and what the Japanese seem to prefer, vs the US, vs Europe, tells a story.

Not an uplifting story, however.

[LanternWaste]

83. Or the meats distributed by the Chicago Meat Packing industry prior to Upton Sinclair...

"Not any more than the food offered at a fried food all-you-can-eat place is normal or healthy...."

Or the meats distributed by the Chicago Meat Packing industry prior to Upton Sinclair.

[dawg]

2. Rape porn disgusts me ...

and the people defending it disgust me.

Of course, I really am a prude. I'm the real deal. I might as well start wearing a powdered wig and a hat with a buckle on it.

[seabeyond]

8. dawg, you just bust me up. nt

[dawg]

27. But I'm totally serious. Here's a "selfie" of me to prove it!

[seabeyond]

36. see, you are cute.... just precious. nt

[Skittles]

79. I don't care for that dog's expression

he appears to be sneering.....scheduling him

[dawg]

80. Bring it!

[Skittles]

82. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

THAT DOG HAS TOO MUCH ATTITUDE; HE IS SCHEDULED TOO

[ismnotwasm]

3. Exactly!

I have no problems looking at porn, looking up porn or watching it. I find most of it disturbing and and about as erotic as mowing the lawn. There is a racist element to it that the defenders never bring up. ( look up "Latina porn" or Black on white" There's way too much emphasis on "teenage girls" ( although the sites quickly remind you that everyone participating is over 18.)What anus's and vagina's are subject to is not healthy and too often just looks very painful, even if the participants are professional and know what they are doing ( there should be a "jackass" type warning "don't try this at home" . There are conditions such as rectal and vaginal prolapse that can and does happen o even th experienced from doing that shit.

Personally, I'll never understand why anyone gets off on ejaculating on someone face, shoving two hands up a vagina, or overextending an anus with some device until you know the BEST they're going to get health wise are hemorrhoids, calling what is clearly urination "female ejaculation" (yes females have a form of ejaculation-- it looks nothing like pee)

And so on.

[Arcanetrance]

4. The amusing thing is how much I've apparently learned about myself

Apparently I'm anti gay people I want to be gestapo like and control what people do in their own lives.

[xulamaude]

5. Right?! Like who knew that (by agreeing with your political position on porn)

I am ostensibly anti-gay and a fascist and a prune - oops, I meant prude - even though I've been in a same sex relationship for 20 years, fight for the rights of 'people' who can't fight for themselves and don't even like dried plums at all. LOL

[Arcanetrance]

6. Yep it is definitely amazing especially since I know I have my own personal kinks

But the violent trend in porn isn't kink it's pure violence at times

[seabeyond]

9. a prune - oops, I meant prude... bah hahaha.

i love you guys.

you are all making me feel so much better

[Sheldon Cooper]

11. That attempt to paint you as anti-gay was a big fail.

[duffyduff]

7. Actually I DO have problems with it because of the working conditions of those in it.

No matter how one wants to sugarcoat it, it's exploitation.

[ismnotwasm]

13. The argument used to be

( DU had had more than one round of porn wars) That porn workers had lower sexually transmitted disease than the average population because it was so self regulating. That's now known to bullshit.

Or. the argument was used to be that nobody was coerced into porn- also bullshit

The most hilarious response I had was that "the women actors are enjoying themselves"-- completely forgetting that it's a damn movie, with lights camera action scene 1 scene 2 and all that.

Apparently the poster thought pornography movies are all about great sex and guaranteed orgasms.

[duffyduff]

24. It's still widely believed.

There's no fantasy being depicted in print or film porn. It's the real stuff, and the working conditions are nothing short of horrendous for those in "the industry."

Years ago I used to believe the "civil liberties" bullshit until I read stuff by people who actually were in it. Now I won't go anywhere near the stuff, I won't click links to it, nothing.

To do it I would be contributing to it.

[seabeyond]

37. i remember when pro porn would stress, must stay out of kids hands, to meh, to they have to learn

sex somewhere. ya, their "argument" evolves.

now it is about WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS, waaaa. like a parent is doing something wrong being a parent.

it is the adults world to play, fuck the kids.

this lot sure does become self absorbed. fuck the women. ha ha. fuck the kids... not literally though, ya that too.

[Sheldon Cooper]

10. Well, that was fun.

As always, it's good to see the boys show up to defend their right to jack off to anything, no matter how awful. And their little group of female cohorts, eager to get that pat on the head from the guys. I wonder if these dudes have ANY idea how they come across? It's a sad and pathetic picture that they paint, and I doubt they have any idea they're doing it.

[Arcanetrance]

12. I guess I'll always be a guy on the outside looking in

at other guys going seriously dude.

[ismnotwasm]

14. Oh crap I just read through that thread

Hilariously stupid responses, I don't think you're on the outside, I think you're more than a wee bit smarter.

You know it's possible to make pornography erotic instead of exploitive. This multi-billion dollar industry doesn't seem interested. You got to wonder why. Pornography-- the Wallmart of sex.

[Arcanetrance]

15. I know erotic porn can exist but like you said they're not interested violence sells

[seabeyond]

38. you along with the majority of my class of men, anyway. nt

[nomorenomore08]

16. I see it as being like any other large industry under capitalism - corrupt and yes, exploitative.

And as I've said before, I'm not even blanketly anti-porn, though I do instinctively shy away from anything that strikes me as abusive material.

[Arcanetrance]

17. That's the thing no where did I advocate banning anything

I just raised concerns about things I felt did constitute violence and such

[nomorenomore08]

18. Exactly. Right on!

It is nice to meet a very progressive metal dude like yourself, who goes completely against the reactionary-meathead stereotype.

[Arcanetrance]

19. I was always bad at being a meat head even when I played football

[nomorenomore08]

20. I feel that. And I'm a football fan too, more so than most sports.

I guess it's the combo of violence and finesse that attracts me.

[Arcanetrance]

21. Who's your team

[nomorenomore08]

25. Niners, mostly. But I root for all Bay Area teams so that includes the Raiders.

[Arcanetrance]

26. I guess you can guess my team judging by my avatar

I saw Joe Satriani played the anthem at a raiders game last sunday

[duffyduff]

22. That thread makes me want to take a shower.

People are still repeating that 1970s "civil liberties" and "free speech" bullshit.

Exploitation of others or consuming products that are a result of exploitation of others is not a civil right.

Period.

[Arcanetrance]

23. I'm sorry it makes me feel dirty as well but it was something I felt I needed to write

knowing full well what it would bring down

[seabeyond]

39. you got your say. a lot of people spoke up with you. then you walk away from the thread

and let the others piss in all the corners marking territory. or self delete and be done.

[BainsBane]

43. I saw that last jab to you

You are not the one trolling. That is yet against another effort to silence anyone who challenges privilege.

[Arcanetrance]

44. Yeah I just think I need some time away from here people can't seem to separate personal sexual

relationships and porn. The defense of porn with racial overtones. I'm really not anti sex I'm not trying to stop people from enjoying themselves in their own home. But Fuck it if I'm seen as a troll one less Xmas card

[BainsBane]

45. That and other comments

prompted me to post this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4101392

[seabeyond]

47. cause they have allowed porn to tie into their sexuality. if you need it to get off....

you are directly attacking their sexuality

[freshwest]

46. Chris Hedges: 'I get very angry with the liberal class on the left for their refusal to condemn...

...pornography. Why is it morally indefensible to physically abuse a woman in a sweatshop in the Phillipines or in southern China, but somehow it's an issue of free speech when it's done by the sex industry in the United States...'

From the video posted by redqueen some time back:

It recieved the regular DU treatment. As her sig line at the time said:

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends" - Martin Luther King Jr.

The lack of concern from bleeding hearts spoke to censorship and I was disappointed to see that many must have been afraid to speak out and take the abuse. I didn't expect that thread to go that way at all.

One thread I posted in that forum regarding sexist GOP lawmakers and their outrageous behavior got no outrage. A video on forced marriage was trolled and I was threated with the thread being hidden or I would be banned. My best support came from a man who said it was true, and I looked him up onlline as he is from the Middle East and gave other sources of the video that made the fuss.

So I do not post on these things, and have said why.

From one of my posts on that ill fated thread by redqueen, which from Hedge's point of view, and was about trying to raise consciousness about class war and exploitation:

Liberalism has a blindspot when it comes to pornography. Liberals see it as a freedom issue - adults should be free to watch porn if they want, so long as no-one is harmed in the making of it. Adults should also be free to make porn if they want. Companies should be free to sell porn.

No one wants to oppose pornography, for fear it will make them look Victorian and repressed, like Mary Whitehouse. To oppose porn might be seen as 'weird' - to accept it and giggle at it is normal.

In fact, just about the only male journalist I can think of who has raised any concerns about the massive global pornography industry and its effect on all of us is Chris Hedges, a Pulitzer Prize-winning war correspondent who has become something of a moral voice in journalism.

In his 2008 book, Empire of Illusion, he asserted that porn is a particularly vicious form of corporate slavery, in which women are commodified, abused and traumatised for the pleasure of male consumers and the multi-billion-dollar profit of corporations.

Although I would NOT call that 'liberalism' or 'progessive' values. Don't forget that Hedges is a Libertarian. But troubled about what many civil libertarians demand as their rights.

Just My Humble Opinion, and data to be reviewed, as I will not be trolled by anyone about this. I won't argue with those who have busy minds but whose empathy is dead.

Thanks for the threads that led me here, I don't bother to comment on this anywhere, and don't plan to be a regular here. Threads that refer to terms like patriarchy cause me to leave immediately. They seem to date the issues.

The issues being raised in these threads are dead at DU, but who knows, someone might listen.

The posts by NYC SKP showed he had read and thought about the larger implications.

EDIT: Since the link to the thread was to a self-deleted thread, I don't know what it was, but the DU response was the same. It's always the same. Thanks for trying. AT.

[ismnotwasm]

48. Thank you

It is a big blind spot, and I appreciate your comments.

Pornography, has the potential to be improved, more actual eroticism rather than relying on shock or violence or exploitation, if the purchasers would reflect on what they're being spoon fed. The porn industry feeds many corporate parasites that liberal's rail against.

Have a great day and we will see you elsewhere around here

[seabeyond]

49. chomsky on porn

i knew there was another fave liberal. someone put a chomski thread in gd of the man on a different topic

[BainsBane]

64. I posted this in GD

Thanks for the link

[BainsBane]

65. "chomsky's seal of approval on Hustler"

means more than what Chomsky actually says.

[seabeyond]

66. i know. only on du. call the man a liar. nt

[freshwest]

67. Stronger than Hedges. Fearless, and as always, Noam sees the big picture. I predict...

Chomsky and Hedges to be thrown under the bus in 3... 2... 1... Who will be the next hero for liberty?

My ex and I watched as this unfolded in the seventies in the liberal sphere. Luckily, he was a man who saw the big and the small picture.

I could explain, not today. Nice add to this thread, Sea.

[seabeyond]

68. clown, hypocrite, hustler and get a better advocate, so far. lol nt

[freshwest]

69. Hello, did I miss something? I edited my reply, please clarify.

[seabeyond]

71. Chomsky and Hedges to be thrown under the bus in 3... 2... 1...

i was responding to this. with just a check on a little of the posting i have seen chomsky reduced to a hypocrite, clown, hustler, and we need to get a better advocate.

i was re enforcing what you had posted. that liberals would attack the two cause of their *gasp* differing views on porn.

[BainsBane]

50. Excellent post.

Thanks for sharing. It does belong in GD, but of course they won't listen.

[BainsBane]

63. I posted this in GD

Thanks for the link.

[freshwest]

70. Found it, but most repondents have already entered the event horizon.

[BainsBane]

72. Indeed.

One person chewed me out for not giving attribution. I can edit to credit you if you like, but based on your above post I thought you might not want it.

[freshwest]

73. It DOES NOT need attribution. I got wind of it from redqueen. But it's a public video. No need...

The person doing the chewing is nibbling on the wrong thing, or IOW,
JAQing off = Just Asking Questions to deflect off the topic or trolling.

No substantial answer except by zazen. Good for you for posting it but don't send the trolls my way. They'll only enter the black hole of Ignore. Where there be wailing and gnashing of teeth...

I don't apologize for using the feature and not listening to every fart that is blown my way. Those who insist you listen to them are bullies, when they are demanding you answer them!!!!

Unlike real life, you don't have to answer anyone here. I pay to post and get search features, avatar, sig line and the rest. I'm not going to be used as toilet paper just because some poster think they have the right to yell at me. I never attack other DUers, not for their ideas, personally or otherwise.

Freedom, ya know!!!

[xulamaude]

74. All that + the shirt off my back :)

[freshwest]

75. Thanks, see you around, too.

[BainsBane]

76. At times I've been more liberal with ignore

but it makes it hard to navigate the site, particularly since I'm on MIRT. I have to look at posts by new sign ups, and if I have a lot of people on ignore, I end up not being able to see subthreads. I may add more to the list when this term is over.

[freshwest]

77. Have to have a strong stomach to be on MIRT, I'm sure. I've been asked over the years to manage some

boards or be a host here. It means having to read the fecal droppings.

I see the Chomsky thread got more action, and what Sea said here that I was not aware of. Yes, he barbequed the sacred cow, touched the taboo, like Hedges, and must be thrown under the bus.

I appreciated rednomore and some other posters' responses. Was deeply disappointed with others.

It does have to do with comprehension of a topic vs knee jerk responses. When someone who says cigarettes are bad for the lungs or drinking harms the liver. These things are proven by science.

An addict cannot hear it, thinks they are a victim, will do anything to resist being denied a fix. It's not coming from a place of reason and logic, cannot be reached by any kind of facts or thinking process, just like baggers. It's repetition of something that brooks no denial and will not allow one the power to say to no.

Not the best analogy, but defensiveness and name calling are necessary to protect one's true love interest.

A person who has been around an addict who is deeply into a drug, be it chemical (meth, etc.) or mental (Faux News) uses any justification to not stop partaking. It is very painful to stop what has given a sense of comfort.

[BainsBane]

78. I haven't read most of the responses

but I'll look for rednomore's. I posted the videos for people to watch. After that, it's their problem. I don't intend to keep having the same non-discussions one million times.

[BainsBane]

51. I find it truly astounding

How absolutely impervious most in those threads are to any information or argument other than the caricature they want to project on to ALL who suggest any critique of rape porn. I wouldn't think it would even be possible to argue so much yet not understand even a bit of the arguments presented. It truly is a marvel.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

52. mostly, (I hope) they are playing at being deliberately obtuse; it bodes them well.

although, I would not be surprised if, some of them are truly that dumb.

[xulamaude]

53. It's just classic silencing technique

to twist and deflect and ask a bunch of related, but not exactly on topic (bring up stuff that was said in others threads, etc) questions to mostly drive the 'other' to exasperation OR draw the 'other' into their line of questioning for which they have ready rebuttals so as to let 'you' hang yourself with 'their' rope.

Also, links are never good enough - they're flawed studies or they're not funded by the right people or wtf ever. To paraphrase a recent exchange I saw: 'Just google it yourself.' 'Everybody knows you can't trust google! Give me the link!' (for the record I'm not talking about the 'google exchange' I had)

Whether they do it with purpose or they on auto-pilot because of privilege blinders or they really are just that incapable of intellectual understanding of a concept, the result is the same: most people shut up because the struggle is too draining.

[BainsBane]

54. If they try to get you to link to porn

It's an effort to get a post hidden. Don't fall for it.

Your post is spot on.

[xulamaude]

55. Well of course!

Thanks for the pointer, but I will NEVER post a link outside of this group.

Somewhat unrelated and pretty effing obvious but something I think bears a reminder: DU is visible to anyone with an internet connection. The whole world can see what you are saying. Every person with a reasonably functioning brain and a grasp of the English language (or a good translating program!) is free to read along.

I like to keep that in mind

ETA - if I ever DO post a link, I can guarantee it won't be porn! lol

[seabeyond]

56. I often keep in mind what I am saying is irrelevant to whom I replied, but for the lurkers

And google search. What you say is so true. I have googled a topic and had our threads up in the number one and two slots.

[xulamaude]

57. Yes! For the lurkers!

I mean that really is the whole point anyway. If someone doesn't say it then they won't know that other women and girls feel the same way they do.

That's right. You're not crazy after all!

[seabeyond]

58. Exactly. Nt

[BainsBane]

59. That's my principal takeaway from this discussion

No one pays even the slightest attention to what you actually write. It's all about what they want you to be saying in order to trivialize the argument.

[seabeyond]

60. exactly. that is why it is important to state what you have to say, regardling an OP

and dont me drawn. generally i will have a main point.

like, redefining violence. people want be to ban, make illegal, find a remedy, talk about consensual or forced.... but, not the definition of violence. that was the only point i had in that thread.

say what you have to say... then do not be drawn. walk from the thread. i will generally give on allowance that a person needs clarification, or more effort in post. if their reply shows it is a game, i no longer reply. now, there are some i know that reply to me, that it is a total waste and just a game. i rarely even reply to those people.

first, if drawn it takes away from the original power of the first statement. which is what is important to me. and what i want to be heard on....

also, those lurking or with google search do not have to participate in a convoluted, circular discussion. taking them from the very important point i was making.

and sometimes i say fuck it, participate. and always say... not again. lol

another thing i do always. these posters i know so well. when starting their reply, it is a big fat made up story, like

so, you say you want to ban porn....

wtf? no i didnt. nowhere does it say, i said that.

and then their reply is ten paragraphs long. well know, that first sentence had me stop reading. right there. start a post with a lie, the person does not get the consideration of my time to read all they wrote. i am done with the post immediately. THAT, i do, almost all the time. i literally cannot get myself to read beyond one line that starts with a lie.

[BainsBane]

61. I'm a slow learner when it comes to that stuff

I will try to heed your advice. There was one post from someone in my GD thread who wanted to learn. I invited him to come over to HOF. I hope he does.

[seabeyond]

62. a lot of the men that have pm'ed me

and told me how much they have learned, how much they appreciate what has been posted so they can grow, are not gonna be in the conversation. at all. tehy are not stepping little, big or middle toe into it. but they read. they think. they do not agree with it all. and that is cool. cause some stuff they identify with, some a light buld goes off. and thinking is always a cheer... for men. i love the whole,... thinking, thing. lol

the women mostly just sya. thanks. i am glad someone pointed that out. a voice.

[Sheri]

81. you took your lumps, but you made your point. well done. nt